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Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
1039
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Posted - 2015.12.14 04:22:17 -
[91] - Quote
HiddenPorpoise wrote:elitatwo wrote:FT Cold wrote:...That's why the first step has got to be to nerf t3ds. Savagely. Put them down to t1 destroyer strength. Then you won't need RLML garbage to counter them. After that, nerf or outright remove RLMLs and restore balance to the frigate and destroyer metagame, then we can move forward in a sensible way. You meant to say "nerf that minmatar destroyer". The rest of them are fine as is. "The Minimatar have the most virulent kind of cancer; all other cancer is fine"
I'm going to kinda defend elitatwo on this.. I don't know about all the t3ds, but the jackdaw doesn't seem to be too out of whack. Given that it has 3 configurations, I feel it's relatively balance in each of those. However, the problem is that they can easily swap back a forth, thus configuring for the fight on the fly. This is where balance comes in to play. It at said, im not going to pretend I know how to fix the solution, as the only thing I can think of essentially defeats the purpose of having modes at all. |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
801
|
Posted - 2015.12.14 05:21:11 -
[92] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:You should take multiple unbonused disruptors to shut down weapons in the right class. That isn't the case w/ TDs. It already takes 2x BONUSED MDs to take a Light Missile spewer out of contention.
Nevyn Auscent wrote:We then fix HAM's & HM's so they actually apply to Cruisers properly, so people don't need to use RLML to apply damage to a cruiser. A cruiser sized weapon system should actually work vs cruisers using standard T1 ammo. This means that cruisers hunting cruisers will use HM's & HAM's rather than RLML, so frigates won't be caught as often as a side product.
HAMs apply fine. Use the rigs if you want to kite, or crash if your skills are ****. They apply perfectly fine to tackled targets. HMLs could use a bit of work.
RLML damage is too high, period.
https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage
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HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
411
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Posted - 2015.12.14 06:10:52 -
[93] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I'm going to kinda defend elitatwo on this.. I don't know about all the t3ds, but the jackdaw doesn't seem to be too out of whack. I don't call them cancer for fighting up well, I call them cancer for being better than everything below them at everything. The jackdaw is just as guilty of that as the others; they are as fast or faster than frigates and turn faster. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
1040
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Posted - 2015.12.14 06:18:25 -
[94] - Quote
HiddenPorpoise wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I'm going to kinda defend elitatwo on this.. I don't know about all the t3ds, but the jackdaw doesn't seem to be too out of whack. I don't call them cancer for fighting up well, I call them cancer for being better than everything below them at everything. The jackdaw is just as guilty of that as the others; they are as fast or faster than frigates and turn faster.
Again, I would argue that in and of itself isn't a problem. The problem is, they can swap modes at any time.
Being kited? Go sharpshooter and peg them, or go propulsion and catch up Target has high dps? go tank mode Target has low tracking? go prop mode
The jackdaw is fairly well balanced it each mode. It's the ability to easily swap modes that becomes the issue.
Perhaps increase the cooldown timer on swapping to something like 1 minute or so. Now they must dedicate themselves to that mode, instead of swapping quickly when the first mode swap isn't optimal. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
946
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Posted - 2015.12.14 09:42:07 -
[95] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:You should take multiple unbonused disruptors to shut down weapons in the right class. That isn't the case w/ TDs. It already takes 2x BONUSED MDs to take a Light Missile spewer out of contention. Nevyn Auscent wrote:We then fix HAM's & HM's so they actually apply to Cruisers properly, so people don't need to use RLML to apply damage to a cruiser. A cruiser sized weapon system should actually work vs cruisers using standard T1 ammo. This means that cruisers hunting cruisers will use HM's & HAM's rather than RLML, so frigates won't be caught as often as a side product. HAMs apply fine. Use the rigs if you want to kite, or crash if your skills are ****. They apply perfectly fine to tackled targets. HMLs could use a bit of work. RLML damage is too high, period.
Prometheus dear, I have to disagree with you. Heavy missile application is terrible and you know it. There is no turret boat in EVE where you are forces to fit 700 application mods to make them do damage. You just need to accelarate to mitigate 50% heavy missiles damage without a prop mod.
Maybe heavy assault missiles are fine when you have pinned you target but have you ever tried to hit a frigate with javelin assault missiles without a web?
svipul says lolololol.
If you followed us here, I said many, many times that this rapid launcher nonsense is not the right approach to make missiles work and having to have a fleet of remote ewar to make missiles do damage is a very strong indicator that they do not work.
One could argue that skirmish links are the disease that we are trying to cure.
I have an idea to remove that singature radius link and replace it with a remote targetted one but I can already hear the rivers floating.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
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RcTamiya
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
33
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Posted - 2015.12.14 09:59:12 -
[96] - Quote
This issue becomes REALLY noticeable once you pvp in a magnetar wormhole .... Golems even with RHML aint a threat at all, if oyu have an afterburner.... (~90 dmg volleys \o/) |
Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio The OSS
855
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Posted - 2015.12.14 10:27:28 -
[97] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:You should take multiple unbonused disruptors to shut down weapons in the right class. That isn't the case w/ TDs. It already takes 2x BONUSED MDs to take a Light Missile spewer out of contention.
Erm, two unbonused TDs will half missile DPS with absolutely nothing the pilot can do about it.
This was based on tests involving a kestrel shooting LML at a T2 MWD heron with the pair of disruptors on it. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2772
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Posted - 2015.12.14 10:46:27 -
[98] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote: HAMs apply fine. Use the rigs if you want to kite, or crash if your skills are ****. They apply perfectly fine to tackled targets. HMLs could use a bit of work.
RLML damage is too high, period.
Missiles should not need the target to be tackled when shooting at a standard target of the intended size to apply damage. Turrets you can pretty much apply damage perfectly from a cruiser to a cruiser if they don't have a prop mod without any tracking rigs or modules. Regardless of the turret, since assuming you pilot smart you can't out track them in that situation.
Missiles should be in the same boat for application. However before prop mod you are already mitigating significant damage with HAM's & HM's when in a cruiser. The Rigs & Modules should be what allow you to apply HAM's & HM's damage onto frigates & untackled cruisers with prop mods, since fitting for application nerfs your tank. |
RcTamiya
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
33
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Posted - 2015.12.14 11:01:33 -
[99] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote: HAMs apply fine. Use the rigs if you want to kite, or crash if your skills are ****. They apply perfectly fine to tackled targets. HMLs could use a bit of work.
RLML damage is too high, period.
Missiles should not need the target to be tackled when shooting at a standard target of the intended size to apply damage. Turrets you can pretty much apply damage perfectly from a cruiser to a cruiser if they don't have a prop mod without any tracking rigs or modules. Regardless of the turret, since assuming you pilot smart you can't out track them in that situation. Missiles should be in the same boat for application. However before prop mod you are already mitigating significant damage with HAM's & HM's when in a cruiser. The Rigs & Modules should be what allow you to apply HAM's & HM's damage onto frigates & untackled cruisers with prop mods, since fitting for application nerfs your tank.
I give you one reason, why changing mechanics for missiles is bad: Blappheonix, we all know what happens if mechanics gets touched there (RIP wspace-pvp)
So, you only have one (light missiles) out of six (cruise, torps, HM, HAMs, rockets) Missiletypes beeing viable, buffing the other 5 and nerfing the superior is actually bad, we all agree on this. So you have to rework how they apply their damage, doing this shouldn't effect citadel Weapons too much, remember Cap rebalance?! Whatever you do to improve general dps application and/or projection of Missiles in general, it will make a Pheonix skyrocket as Blapdread, if you aint VERY VERY VERY careful.
TLDR: rework missilemechanics nessescary, do not buff Blappheonix! |
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
947
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Posted - 2015.12.14 12:12:46 -
[100] - Quote
RcTamiya wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote: HAMs apply fine. Use the rigs if you want to kite, or crash if your skills are ****. They apply perfectly fine to tackled targets. HMLs could use a bit of work.
RLML damage is too high, period.
Missiles should not need the target to be tackled when shooting at a standard target of the intended size to apply damage. Turrets you can pretty much apply damage perfectly from a cruiser to a cruiser if they don't have a prop mod without any tracking rigs or modules. Regardless of the turret, since assuming you pilot smart you can't out track them in that situation. Missiles should be in the same boat for application. However before prop mod you are already mitigating significant damage with HAM's & HM's when in a cruiser. The Rigs & Modules should be what allow you to apply HAM's & HM's damage onto frigates & untackled cruisers with prop mods, since fitting for application nerfs your tank. I give you one reason, why changing mechanics for missiles is bad: Blappheonix, we all know what happens if mechanics gets touched there (RIP wspace-pvp) So, you only have one (light missiles) out of six (cruise, torps, HM, HAMs, rockets) Missiletypes beeing viable, buffing the other 5 and nerfing the superior is actually bad, we all agree on this. So you have to rework how they apply their damage, doing this shouldn't effect citadel Weapons too much, remember Cap rebalance?! Whatever you do to improve general dps application and/or projection of Missiles in general, it will make a Pheonix skyrocket as Blapdread, if you aint VERY VERY VERY careful. TLDR: rework missilemechanics nessescary, do not buff Blappheonix!
Slippery slope. While I do know you mean well you should consider that the Moros, the Revelation and that minmatar thing can do just that - blapp. But for the sake of small gang pvp let's just stay at below capital weapons.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
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RcTamiya
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
33
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Posted - 2015.12.14 12:41:09 -
[101] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:RcTamiya wrote:[quote=Nevyn Auscent][quote=Prometheus Exenthal] stuff Slippery slope. While I do know you mean well you should consider that the Moros, the Revelation and that minmatar thing can do just that - blapp. But for the sake of small gang pvp let's just stay at below capital weapons.
Yes and no, they have huge disadvantages in compairson, if you manually orbit a moros within 500m, you are absolutely impossible to track for it, even if webbed, a pheonix on the other hand just hits like a truck, if your sig is big enough and your speed below ~140 m/s (no loss of dmg due to velocity before that)
Isn't Solopheonix smallgang too ?
I hear you there, but only fixxing one thing and ignoring others ended in situations like the one this thread is all about
DPS Graphs for Missiles are funny, if you compare them for each class, you'll notice that only light missiles and citadel torps/citadel cruise missiles actually are able to hit their Targets for full damage, without at least one Rapier and some TPs as Support. |
Kitty Bear
Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club
1529
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Posted - 2015.12.14 13:36:00 -
[102] - Quote
Valacus wrote:Uhhhh, no. Frigates, t3ds, and all small kitey gangs are the plague and RLMLs are the cure. We need more anti-frigate modules like RLMLs and more ships that get RLML bonuses.
we also need turret weapons like this to receive an rlml type pass to make it more effective
It needs Small charges, not medium It needs the range/tracking & damage base of a Small weapon and not Medium Fitting costs are based on Medium so they are the ONLY aspect that require little to no change As a Medium weapon it should also get any relevant hull bonus
Then finally turret based cruisers will also have an effective & useable anti-frigate weapon to choose |
RcTamiya
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
33
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Posted - 2015.12.14 13:40:15 -
[103] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:Valacus wrote:Uhhhh, no. Frigates, t3ds, and all small kitey gangs are the plague and RLMLs are the cure. We need more anti-frigate modules like RLMLs and more ships that get RLML bonuses. we also need turret weapons like this to receive an rlml type pass to make it more effective It needs Small charges, not medium It needs the range/tracking & damage of a Small weapon and not Medium Fitting costs are based on Medium so they are the ONLY aspect that require little to no change As a Medium weapon it should also get any relevant hull bonus Then finally turret based cruisers will also have an effective & useable anti-frigate weapon to choose
it's called dual web + ab + keep at range + neut There's plenty cruisers out there who have no trouble with Frigs at all though. |
Valacus
Streets of Fire
75
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Posted - 2015.12.14 14:05:48 -
[104] - Quote
RcTamiya wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:Valacus wrote:Uhhhh, no. Frigates, t3ds, and all small kitey gangs are the plague and RLMLs are the cure. We need more anti-frigate modules like RLMLs and more ships that get RLML bonuses. we also need turret weapons like this to receive an rlml type pass to make it more effective It needs Small charges, not medium It needs the range/tracking & damage of a Small weapon and not Medium Fitting costs are based on Medium so they are the ONLY aspect that require little to no change As a Medium weapon it should also get any relevant hull bonus Then finally turret based cruisers will also have an effective & useable anti-frigate weapon to choose it's called dual web + ab + keep at range + neut There's plenty cruisers out there who have no trouble with Frigs at all though.
Right, and frigates just need to use ranged weapons + keep out of range + speed + L2P. There, we solved all of our problems. We'll just leave everything as is. |
RcTamiya
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
33
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Posted - 2015.12.14 14:28:31 -
[105] - Quote
Valacus wrote:RcTamiya wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:Valacus wrote:Uhhhh, no. Frigates, t3ds, and all small kitey gangs are the plague and RLMLs are the cure. We need more anti-frigate modules like RLMLs and more ships that get RLML bonuses. we also need turret weapons like this to receive an rlml type pass to make it more effective It needs Small charges, not medium It needs the range/tracking & damage of a Small weapon and not Medium Fitting costs are based on Medium so they are the ONLY aspect that require little to no change As a Medium weapon it should also get any relevant hull bonus Then finally turret based cruisers will also have an effective & useable anti-frigate weapon to choose it's called dual web + ab + keep at range + neut There's plenty cruisers out there who have no trouble with Frigs at all though. Right, and frigates just need to use ranged weapons + keep out of range + speed + L2P. There, we solved all of our problems. We'll just leave everything as is.
That doesn't help vs a RLML Orthrus =) |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2421
|
Posted - 2015.12.14 15:02:03 -
[106] - Quote
RcTamiya wrote:Valacus wrote:RcTamiya wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:Valacus wrote:Uhhhh, no. Frigates, t3ds, and all small kitey gangs are the plague and RLMLs are the cure. We need more anti-frigate modules like RLMLs and more ships that get RLML bonuses. we also need turret weapons like this to receive an rlml type pass to make it more effective It needs Small charges, not medium It needs the range/tracking & damage of a Small weapon and not Medium Fitting costs are based on Medium so they are the ONLY aspect that require little to no change As a Medium weapon it should also get any relevant hull bonus Then finally turret based cruisers will also have an effective & useable anti-frigate weapon to choose it's called dual web + ab + keep at range + neut There's plenty cruisers out there who have no trouble with Frigs at all though. Right, and frigates just need to use ranged weapons + keep out of range + speed + L2P. There, we solved all of our problems. We'll just leave everything as is. That doesn't help vs a RLML Orthrus =)
What if this wasn't the faul of RLML but of the Orthrus instead? |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1670
|
Posted - 2015.12.14 15:27:21 -
[107] - Quote
I'm surprised to see this thread still going strong.
TL/DR: RLML are fine, frigate pilots are whiners.
PRO TIP - It's OK that there is a hard counter to kiting frigates, if you don't like it - get a garmur. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1670
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Posted - 2015.12.14 15:29:17 -
[108] - Quote
RcTamiya wrote:Valacus wrote:RcTamiya wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:Valacus wrote:Uhhhh, no. Frigates, t3ds, and all small kitey gangs are the plague and RLMLs are the cure. We need more anti-frigate modules like RLMLs and more ships that get RLML bonuses. we also need turret weapons like this to receive an rlml type pass to make it more effective It needs Small charges, not medium It needs the range/tracking & damage of a Small weapon and not Medium Fitting costs are based on Medium so they are the ONLY aspect that require little to no change As a Medium weapon it should also get any relevant hull bonus Then finally turret based cruisers will also have an effective & useable anti-frigate weapon to choose it's called dual web + ab + keep at range + neut There's plenty cruisers out there who have no trouble with Frigs at all though. Right, and frigates just need to use ranged weapons + keep out of range + speed + L2P. There, we solved all of our problems. We'll just leave everything as is. That doesn't help vs a RLML Orthrus =)
The orthrus was the problem, not RLML. They just dialed the orthrus back a bit in the last patch/expansion (not sure what they are calling it... patchspansion???). |
Valacus
Streets of Fire
75
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Posted - 2015.12.14 15:46:08 -
[109] - Quote
RcTamiya wrote:Valacus wrote:RcTamiya wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:Valacus wrote:Uhhhh, no. Frigates, t3ds, and all small kitey gangs are the plague and RLMLs are the cure. We need more anti-frigate modules like RLMLs and more ships that get RLML bonuses. we also need turret weapons like this to receive an rlml type pass to make it more effective It needs Small charges, not medium It needs the range/tracking & damage of a Small weapon and not Medium Fitting costs are based on Medium so they are the ONLY aspect that require little to no change As a Medium weapon it should also get any relevant hull bonus Then finally turret based cruisers will also have an effective & useable anti-frigate weapon to choose it's called dual web + ab + keep at range + neut There's plenty cruisers out there who have no trouble with Frigs at all though. Right, and frigates just need to use ranged weapons + keep out of range + speed + L2P. There, we solved all of our problems. We'll just leave everything as is. That doesn't help vs a RLML Orthrus =)
And your suggestion doesn't help vs. the LM Garmur or the Svipul. Neuts don't do anything to ancillary tanked ships that use capless guns, not to mention the Svipul is much, much faster than you are =) |
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
951
|
Posted - 2015.12.14 22:00:14 -
[110] - Quote
RcTamiya wrote:elitatwo wrote:RcTamiya wrote:[quote=Nevyn Auscent][quote=Prometheus Exenthal] stuff Slippery slope. While I do know you mean well you should consider that the Moros, the Revelation and that minmatar thing can do just that - blapp. But for the sake of small gang pvp let's just stay at below capital weapons. Yes and no, they have huge disadvantages in compairson, if you manually orbit a moros within 500m, you are absolutely impossible to track for it, even if webbed, a pheonix on the other hand just hits like a truck, if your sig is big enough and your speed below ~140 m/s (no loss of dmg due to velocity before that) Isn't Solopheonix smallgang too ? I hear you there, but only fixxing one thing and ignoring others ended in situations like the one this thread is all about DPS Graphs for Missiles are funny, if you compare them for each class, you'll notice that only light missiles and citadel torps/citadel cruise missiles actually are able to hit their Targets for full damage, without at least one Rapier and some TPs as Support.
Yes but I was already months ahead of time.
Imagine missiles do get their 100% application back (application != damage, damage is fixed, no change) and dreads will loose their ewar immunity and you have an interceptor or two orbitting said Phoenix.
While it sounds really terrible at first, even citadel torpedos need to be launched and fly to their target first but will have a really bad day when they try to hit those interceptors since they will just outrun the base missile speed and the applied 100% damage will be zero. So the only ships that would need to fear cidatel torpedos would be heavily plated armor battleships that cannot reach 1200m/s. Oh and the Phoenix also needs a target lock first unless we get cidatel FOF missiles.
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We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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