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Tammy Torps Rude Lee and The Vexor Underground 1	Posted - 2015.12.08 21:59:11 - [1] - Quote I see many suggestions regarding the removal of attribute implants because people are afraid to be bubbled in pvp. Given how much of an isk sink these are and the amount they are traded this seems to be a the tail wagging the dog. This would allow null sec pilots to actually use (and risk) some of the interesting implants that low sec players can use. Without the use of implants the options for null sec pilots are a bit limited. We already have interceptors that are immune to bubbles and that has worked out well. I think pods should also be immune to bubbles.
Vic Jefferson Stimulus Rote Kapelle 732	Posted - 2015.12.08 22:08:31 - [2] - Quote Tammy Torps wrote: I see many suggestions regarding the removal of attribute implants because people are afraid to be bubbled in pvp. Given how much of an isk sink these are and the amount they are traded this seems to be a the tail wagging the dog. This would allow null sec pilots to actually use (and risk) some of the interesting implants that low sec players can use. Without the use of implants the options for null sec pilots are a bit limited. We already have interceptors that are immune to bubbles and that has worked out well. I think pods should also be immune to bubbles. This would be positively awful. A)It's good that people actually have to risk nice pods in null to reap the benefit. B)This makes interdictors even weaker than they are, and they are already just a t2 destroyer with a bubble in a t3d world. C)Jump clones are available everywhere now, regardless of standings. There is no reason not to just make a jump clone to save nice implants. D)Two +3s cost about 25m. That's barely anything. Being in +3s for 24 hours isn't really changing much. E)Implants are a backbone of the economy and a big ISK and LP sink. It's good to have people both farming them, and blowing them up. Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
Iain Cariaba 2165	Posted - 2015.12.08 22:11:24 - [3] - Quote If you're actively piloting the pod, not autopiloting, then bubbles are the only way to catch pods. Why remove the only way to catch them? EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid. I couldn't have said it better. Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
Bobb Bobbington The Cult of the Rare Pepes 175	Posted - 2015.12.08 23:05:44 - [4] - Quote This most likely would decrease the amount of implants consumed, since it would make it even harder for them to be destroyed. This is a signature. It has a 25m signature. No it's not a cosmic signature. Probably. Btw my corp's recruiting.
Tammy Torps Rude Lee and The Vexor Underground 1	Posted - 2015.12.08 23:15:29 - [5] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: If you're actively piloting the pod, not autopiloting, then bubbles are the only way to catch pods. Why remove the only way to catch them? I think we crossed that bridge with interceptors. Smart bombs can catch pods easier than they can catch interceptors. Lag also causes the loss of pods, but beyond that there are many mistakes people can make even in low sec that cause the loss of pods. But to answer your question the reason I would like pods immune to bubbles is because allowing implants in null sec allows more depth in fitting for pvp. Vic Jefferson wrote: Tammy Torps wrote: I see many suggestions regarding the removal of attribute implants because people are afraid to be bubbled in pvp. Given how much of an isk sink these are and the amount they are traded this seems to be a the tail wagging the dog. This would allow null sec pilots to actually use (and risk) some of the interesting implants that low sec players can use. Without the use of implants the options for null sec pilots are a bit limited. We already have interceptors that are immune to bubbles and that has worked out well. I think pods should also be immune to bubbles. This would be positively awful. A)It's good that people actually have to risk nice pods in null to reap the benefit. B)This makes interdictors even weaker than they are, and they are already just a t2 destroyer with a bubble in a t3d world. C)Jump clones are available everywhere now, regardless of standings. There is no reason not to just make a jump clone to save nice implants. D)Two +3s cost about 25m. That's barely anything. Being in +3s for 24 hours isn't really changing much. E)Implants are a backbone of the economy and a big ISK and LP sink. It's good to have people both farming them, and blowing them up. Thanks for lettering your points. A. They really don't risk them unless they are crazy rich. That's because it is pretty stupid right now to use them in null sec. You basically concede this in point C. B. There are some seperate issues. Interdictors and bubbles have plenty of uses beyond killing pods. Killing bubbled pods is not really something that involves skill anyway. But whether they are balanced against t3s is really a seperate issue. C. See you just agreed that you should make a jump clone to save your nice implants. That is you agree you shouldn't use nice implants in null sec. This makes the fitting choices in null sec fairly limited. D. I agree with that. But I would like to point out the problem hidden in your statement. You say being in +3s for 24 hours isn't really changing anything. So your assuming your will then jump back to another pod after the 24 hours. At that point you can't pvp in null sec. The whole thing with bubbles and pods just makes null sec less accessible and less fun for pvp. E. I would like to see the data on this. I wouldn't be surprised that people lose more value in implants in low sec than they do in null sec. I think if they changed this we would see many more implants in null sec and likely it would help the implant market because people would still lose them to smart bombs, stealth bomber bombs, lag, and mistakes.
Kaarous Aldurald Black Hydra Consortium. 15393	Posted - 2015.12.09 00:25:40 - [6] - Quote Well, unless someone comes along again and suggests that Margin Trading be deleted because they got scammed, you win Bad Idea of the Week, OP. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Husidh The Polar Express 13	Posted - 2015.12.09 00:35:12 - [7] - Quote I'm fairly poor - between isk and assets, not far above 15b. I still fly a 1.5b isk pod in null on my main, Been living in null about two months, yet to be podded. The idea that bubbles prevent using implants is complete bull; look at zkb. Just b/c you are butthurt about losing your pod/not being able to lose one and replace it is no reason to make a giant game mechanics change.
Brumortateu Rhadoshm Iota Piscium 0	Posted - 2015.12.09 00:38:45 - [8] - Quote instead of making all pods immune, it would be better to make just a few pods immune. Give players the option of purchasing a special pod or implant set that would provide this feature. Of course, it would be very expensive. There would have to be some drawbacks, such as fewer implant slots or something, because bubble immunity is a very powerful feature for a pod.
Iain Cariaba 2166	Posted - 2015.12.09 01:49:54 - [9] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Well, unless someone comes along again and suggests that Margin Trading be deleted because they got scammed, you win Bad Idea of the Week, OP. Which is really saying something considering we have Yige posting as well. EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid. I couldn't have said it better. Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
Mallak Azaria GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 6527	Posted - 2015.12.09 02:40:38 - [10] - Quote Tammy Torps wrote: But to answer your question the reason I would like pods immune to bubbles is because allowing implants in null sec allows more depth in fitting for pvp. Future President Donald Trump says stop being poor. This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Arya Regnar Darwins Right Hand 817	Posted - 2015.12.09 05:38:42 - [11] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: If you're actively piloting the pod, not autopiloting, then bubbles are the only way to catch pods. Why remove the only way to catch them? There is also smartbombs but the use of smartbombs is very niche. So yeah while you are not right I certainly do agree with your point. EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 1655	Posted - 2015.12.09 14:47:28 - [12] - Quote Mallak Azaria wrote: Tammy Torps wrote: But to answer your question the reason I would like pods immune to bubbles is because allowing implants in null sec allows more depth in fitting for pvp. Future President Donald Trump says stop being poor. Tammy's premise is wrong. All implants are currently allowed in null sec. The depth is already there. Sweet sweet Tammy - if a players play style is limited by a personal fear of loss, then there is nothing that can be done to help them. Bubble immunity for pods today would just be a stepping stone. The inevitable end to allownces such as this are a shift from Eve's core values to copying all the other mmo and having a no-loss world where everything eventually loses its value. It's the actual loss of stuff that gives eve a depth other mmo will never attain.
Tammy Torps Rude Lee and The Vexor Underground 1	Posted - 2015.12.09 15:37:00 - [13] - Quote Serendipity Lost wrote: Mallak Azaria wrote: Tammy Torps wrote: But to answer your question the reason I would like pods immune to bubbles is because allowing implants in null sec allows more depth in fitting for pvp. Future President Donald Trump says stop being poor. Tammy's premise is wrong. All implants are currently allowed in null sec. The depth is already there. Sweet sweet Tammy - if a players play style is limited by a personal fear of loss, then there is nothing that can be done to help them. Bubble immunity for pods today would just be a stepping stone. The inevitable end to allownces such as this are a shift from Eve's core values to copying all the other mmo and having a no-loss world where everything eventually loses its value. It's the actual loss of stuff that gives eve a depth other mmo will never attain. CCP is sadly accommodating this view of a no loss world. For example they removed having to pay for pods. Now there is a push to eliminate attribute implants. This push is not surprisingly from null sec players. This is indeed removing the actual losses from the game and dumbing it down. I would prefer CCP took a different route. People say null sec players already lose expensive pods. But I would like to see the statistics. What is the average value of a pod lost in null sec and what is the average value of a pod lost in low? I would also like to compare the total value lost in pods in null sec per system or per character in null compared to low sec. And different variations along those lines. We see arguments that contradict each other in support of keeping the mechanic where bubbles hold pods. On the one hand people say don't be stupid and have a jump clone with your expensive pod. On the other hand people say they fly their expensive pods in null sec and those who don't are just overly fearful. Clearly there is disagreement on whether either of these contradictory views is correct. As far as the guy who flys in null sec and never lost a pod that could be. I mean if you are very risk adverse you can no doubt do that. But for the main line pvpers this is recommended. As for the guy who says this is the worst idea. It's bad posts like that, which make eve-o forums horrible. Why not try to think it through a bit and see what would be so bad. Husidh wrote: I'm fairly poor - between isk and assets, not far above 15b. I still fly a 1.5b isk pod in null on my main, Been living in null about two months, yet to be podded. The idea that bubbles prevent using implants is complete bull; look at zkb. Just b/c you are butthurt about losing your pod/not being able to lose one and replace it is no reason to make a giant game mechanics change. 2 months isn't that long. Maybe read the reasons all these null sec groups who have been in null sec longer want to do away with attribute implants. That is indeed eliminating consequences from the game. What are you looking at in zkill? Just that some people die with expensive pods sometime in null sec? Yeah no doubt. Is there any sort of real statistical data that would give the average pod value in low versus null? I think you may find the implant industry would actually do better if ccp removed this effect from bubbles. But I can't say for sure. And no I am not butthurt about losing my pod and yes my main has been in null sec for much longer than you have.
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 1656	Posted - 2015.12.09 16:01:32 - [14] - Quote So again - fear of loss by a player IS NOT a reason to change the game. It's a reason to reflect on a lot of things and maybe change the way you live your life. If you play eve in fear of losing some implants, then I'm sure it trickles over into other things. Here's the correct way to look at eve stuff if you consider yourself a PVP type of person. The very second you purchase something - consider it already lost. From that moment on every second that it last beyond its purchase is a testament to your playing abilities. When you lose it reflect back on all the fun your rental period provided. You buy stuff for the fun you can generate while using it. You don't purchase things with the expectation that they will last forever. Ships are actually very large and complex pieces of ammunition. Implants are just modules that you fit to your brain instead of to your ship. Once you embrace the above, eve is just one episode of fun after another with no isk related downsides what so ever. You can't be an epic space pilot if you're worried about losing trivial things such as implants and ships.
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 1656	Posted - 2015.12.09 16:02:41 - [15] - Quote Feel free to research all my pod losses. I have no regrets!
Mornak Exotic Dancers Union SONS of BANE 63	Posted - 2015.12.09 16:04:38 - [16] - Quote You only talk about attribute enhancers, the real problem with your suggestion lies imho with hardwirings/implant-sets though. Expensive hardwirings or implant-sets provide a HUGE bonus in pvp. HUGE! Eve is always about choices and risk-reward. If reward comes without risk, it's no longer much of a choice. everyone will fly expensive pods, given they have the iskies (newbros who don't have the iskies will be screwed big time). This would also change so much when it comes to the balancing of ships... +5% PG or CPU change a lot when it comes to fittings, so ccp would have to already include such effects while balancing the ships... since almost everyone will use such implants. if you want an extra advantage in pvp like faction/officer-mods, T2Rigs, implant-sets, or hardwirings, you'll have to field it on grid and take the risk of losing it. that's the only reason why trading PLEX for isk is not completely outrageous... you can buy yourself an advantage, sure, but you risk a juicy loss-mail. the advantage is never permanent, others can take it away from you (hence the outrage about buying/selling SP's, that would be permanent). If you fly in an expensive pod and you're too afraid of losing it... well, avoid dictors/HICs, use safespots, fly kite-fittings, move to low-sec, use scouts ...the mechanics are already in the game, it's just not the "easy way". If the risk is still too high for you then just don't use expensive pods... that's what JC's are for (i have a +4s JC somewhere in highsec for extended offline-periods). I so far never pvped in a pod worth more then ~100mio or so, in most cases my pods are empty. I do this because i like to take risky fights and I usually don't fly expensive ships. It's how i like to play eve, it's my choice. if you remove/reduce the risk of losing the pod, i'll just bling-up my pod... and so will everyone else. there will not be much of a choice left and it wont make pvp more fun. (there are exceptions like off-grid boosters, but most of them are being worked on)
Tammy Torps Rude Lee and The Vexor Underground 1	Posted - 2015.12.09 17:49:00 - [17] - Quote Mornak wrote: You only talk about attribute enhancers, the real problem with your suggestion lies imho with hardwirings/implant-sets though. Expensive hardwirings or implant-sets provide a HUGE bonus in pvp. HUGE! Eve is always about choices and risk-reward. If reward comes without risk, it's no longer much of a choice. everyone will fly expensive pods, given they have the iskies (newbros who don't have the iskies will be screwed big time). There is some risk smart bombs, stealth bomber bombs, lag and, of course, mistakes. The stealth bombers would still make it so there is more risk in null than low sec. And people do still lose pods in low sec for the other three reasons. Of course isk is part of the game. Expensive implants cost about a plex. The reasons new bros shouldn't fly with them - even in low sec - is not because of the cost. But because of mistakes. That is how it should be. The low sec balance is IMO pretty decent. Lots of pvpers are moving to low sec or have been there for a while. IMO the skill implants make fitting more interesting. I would like the game to be more interesting that is why I think bubbles killing pods is a bad mechanic. Serendipity Lost wrote:* So again - fear of loss by a player IS NOT a reason to change the game. such over-generalizations are not really helpful. Serendipity Lost wrote: It's a reason to reflect on a lot of things and maybe change the way you live your life. If you play eve in fear of losing some implants, then I'm sure it trickles over into other things. Here's the correct way to look at eve stuff if you consider yourself a PVP type of person. The very second you purchase something - consider it already lost. From that moment on every second that it last beyond its purchase is a testament to your playing abilities. When you lose it reflect back on all the fun your rental period provided. You buy stuff for the fun you can generate while using it. You don't purchase things with the expectation that they will last forever. Ships are actually very large and complex pieces of ammunition. Implants are just modules that you fit to your brain instead of to your ship. Once you embrace the above, eve is just one episode of fun after another with no isk related downsides what so ever. You can't be an epic space pilot if you're worried about losing trivial things such as implants and ships. Why do you think I don't view things like this? I am not saying I think pods should never be lost. I am saying that for the vast majority of players bubbles holding pods means they do not fit expensive implants - myself included. This takes away many fitting options. The risk reward is out of wack. The risk of losing expensive pods due to bubbles in low sec means the vast majority of players won't use them there. Again this is just my opinion. But then again if you want to keep risk in the game then I hope you argue against removing attribute implants and ask that pods costs return. But in the meantime ccp is in fact removing consequences from the game all because of bubbles. IMO this is the wrong approach.
Valkin Mordirc 1732	Posted - 2015.12.09 18:00:12 - [18] - Quote If you spam the warp out button in a pod, nothing but lag will be able to point it. Bubbles are the only way to truly guarantee a pod kill. No small gang fleet is going to tug around a SB T3 or BS, suggesting as such, clearly shows you have no real idea how the game works, when it can be used as something more useful and the Ceptor's job at catching a pod, is again either because of lag on the client end, Or the pilot being slow to warp out. Basically what you are asking for is for a Pod to die, a fleet must either get really lucky, or bring some sort of hindrance with it. I've been running around with HG-Slave's Snakes and Crystals my entire time in EVE. I've never been podded before. Even when I was a noob. I don't go to Nullsec, so it should be entirely reasonable to take my word for it; If you lose a pod in HS or LS you did it to yourself, Generally anyways. The new BIAB system a little wonky right now. If you bring a shiney pod to Nullsec, you have already given it up. Just like everything else in EVE. -1 `#DeleteTheWeak`
FT Diomedes The Graduates 1996	Posted - 2015.12.09 18:25:04 - [19] - Quote I do support removing attribute implants, but I do not support your idea. Why? Because I support removing attribute implants because they do not give a direct and tangible benefit to your ship while you are currently using it. The risk analysis for attribute implants is stay docked and benefit from the implants at zero risk or undock and get the same benefit while risking the implants. On the other hand, I am all in favor of more implants that give a direct and tangible benefit while you are undocked. And I want those implants to be at real risk. If I choose to fly with Snakes or Slaves, my ship is better, but I risk an expensive asset to gain that immediate advantage. Once you go to the point you are at, where pods only get caught due to smart bombs, lag, glitches, or slow reflexes, you might as well just get rid of pod death. And I do not think anyone wants that. CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
Tammy Torps Rude Lee and The Vexor Underground 1	Posted - 2015.12.09 18:31:47 - [20] - Quote Valkin Mordirc wrote: If you spam the warp out button in a pod, nothing but lag will be able to point it. Bubbles are the only way to truly guarantee a pod kill. No small gang fleet is going to tug around a SB T3 or BS, suggesting as such, clearly shows you have no real idea how the game works, when it can be used as something more useful and the Ceptor's job at catching a pod, is again either because of lag on the client end, Or the pilot being slow to warp out. Basically what you are asking for is for a Pod to die, a fleet must either get really lucky, or bring some sort of hindrance with it. I've been running around with HG-Slave's Snakes and Crystals my entire time in EVE. I've never been podded before. Even when I was a noob. I don't go to Nullsec, so it should be entirely reasonable to take my word for it; If you lose a pod in HS or LS you did it to yourself, Generally anyways. The new BIAB system a little wonky right now. If you bring a shiney pod to Nullsec, you have already given it up. Just like everything else in EVE. -1 I never suggested that small gangs tug around a sb t3 or bs. I simply said pods can and do die from smart bombs and stealth bomber bombs, as well as mistakes and lag. It is telling that you use HG slaves, snakes, and crystals, but you don't go to null sec. Given that you like using those implants I am sure a big reason you don't go to null sec is due to bubbles. In other words you agree the null sec game is inferior because you can't use implants that offer more fitting choices. Since you don't go to null sec you probably don't realize how prevelant stealth bombers are and so there would still be sizable risk. Bubbles may guarantee a pod kill but why do we need anything guaranteed in eve?
Tammy Torps Rude Lee and The Vexor Underground 1	Posted - 2015.12.09 18:45:09 - [21] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: I do support removing attribute implants, but I do not support your idea. Why? Because I support removing attribute implants because they do not give a direct and tangible benefit to your ship while you are currently using it. The risk analysis for attribute implants is stay docked and benefit from the implants at zero risk or undock and get the same benefit while risking the implants. There are other implants that give bonuses for things other than combat for ex refining. Should they all be removed because you don't want anyone to risk them when they undock? Your whole view that benefits that effect your ship should be risked but benefits that don't effect your ship should never be risked, is artificial and unjustified. Eve is about letting players choose what risks are worth it and which are not. Your view that ccp should take those choices away is eroding the game.
FT Diomedes The Graduates 1996	Posted - 2015.12.09 18:51:48 - [22] - Quote Never not fly a 56m ISK, wet toilet paper tanked Eris with a nice pod. It could be argued by many, including me, that none of my implants benefitted this ship. But hey, who can resist a corpmate's call to "come tackle this PVE Ishtar for me, I have plenty of DPS right here." Then he got wife aggro... And it was not PVE fit... A richly deserved pod death, in my own bubble. If that was a mid-grade Snake set, I would not feel nearly as bad about that loss (although it would still have been a stupid loss). What is the point of this anecdote? That everyone likes killing juicy pods. That should continue to be an integral part of Eve for years to come, but all implants should give an immediate benefit to the ship's pilot while it is actually being used. CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
Tammy Torps Rude Lee and The Vexor Underground 1	Posted - 2015.12.09 19:00:46 - [23] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: but all implants should give an immediate benefit to the ship's pilot while it is actually being used. You keep claiming this but you never actually defend your claim. Here is what I said against this claim: There are other implants that give bonuses for things other than combat for ex refining. Should they all be removed because you don't want anyone to risk them when they undock? Your whole view that benefits that effect your ship should be risked but benefits that don't effect your ship should never be risked, is artificial and unjustified. Eve is about letting players choose what risks are worth it and which are not. Your view that ccp should take those choices away is eroding the game.
Mallak Azaria GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 6534	Posted - 2015.12.09 20:03:05 - [24] - Quote Tammy Torps wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: but all implants should give an immediate benefit to the ship's pilot while it is actually being used. You keep claiming this but you never actually defend your claim. Here is what I said against this claim: There are other implants that give bonuses for things other than combat for ex refining. Should they all be removed because you don't want anyone to risk them when they undock? Your whole view that benefits that effect your ship should be risked but benefits that don't effect your ship should never be risked, is artificial and unjustified. Eve is about letting players choose what risks are worth it and which are not. Your view that ccp should take those choices away is eroding the game. Attribute implants are being removed eventually not because people don't want to lose them, but because it's frankly grossly unfair to new players that older players train faster because they have more space money. Making the playing field equal in this regard is not a bad thing. Making pods immune to bubbles however is a terrible idea. This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 779	Posted - 2015.12.09 20:56:36 - [25] - Quote Bubbles are the only thing that keeps null and WH free of "everyone in slaves and +6 implants all the time". I like it that way.
Tammy Torps Rude Lee and The Vexor Underground 1	Posted - 2015.12.09 23:49:57 - [26] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: Bubbles are the only thing that keeps null and WH free of "everyone in slaves and +6 implants all the time". I like it that way. For some, less complexity and risk is better. Mallak Azaria wrote: Attribute implants are being removed eventually not because people don't want to lose them, but because it's frankly grossly unfair to new players that older players train faster because they have more space money. Making the playing field equal in this regard is not a bad thing. Making pods immune to bubbles however is a terrible idea. Attribute implants are fairly cheap on the whole. The difference in training time between +4 and +5 is minimal and plus 4 implants cost less than 20 mill. What is that like 15 cents? But your logic of "everything needs to be fair to new poor players" fails in so many ways in eve. Not the least of which is the other implants that give considerable advantages like the pirate implants. It is interesting that it is a null sec alliance like goons that push for this attribute implant elimination.
FT Diomedes The Graduates 1997	Posted - 2015.12.10 00:23:20 - [27] - Quote Tammy Torps wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: but all implants should give an immediate benefit to the ship's pilot while it is actually being used. You keep claiming this but you never actually defend your claim. Here is what I said against this claim: There are other implants that give bonuses for things other than combat for ex refining. Should they all be removed because you don't want anyone to risk them when they undock? Your whole view that benefits that effect your ship should be risked but benefits that don't effect your ship should never be risked, is artificial and unjustified. Eve is about letting players choose what risks are worth it and which are not. Your view that ccp should take those choices away is eroding the game. No, I want to see meaningful choices. Not irrational or stupid ones. Assuming that I am not filthy rich, if I jump into a +5 clone, the most rational choice is to not undock, which is not very fun, or only undock if I then take almost no risks (such as staying in high sec running missions or flying one of 200 Archons in a blob), or I can risk a pod worth ten times the value of my ship for no immediate benefit. I would prefer to see meaningful choices and increased rewards for increased risks. To me, a meaningful choice is "Do I fly an empty pod in this drunk T1 frigate roam? Or do I plug in my Snake set and take out my Orthrus? Or do I plug in Slaves and jump in my Abaddon?" Ideally, a player should be able to make all three of those decisions in the same hour. I should not be basically precluded from having fun on a drunken frigate roam because I clone jumped to my Slave set twelve hours ago. That is a terrible choice. I want to catch that elite solo player in his Orthrus, kill him, and kill his juicy Snake set too (while I risk my Virtue set probing down his off-grid booster). I do not particularly get excited when I catch someone in their refining clone in a Caracal fleet. That was a bad choice to force on the Caracal pilot. Either he was stupid, he forgot, or he really wanted to have fun out in space. I want it to be a no brainer decision to undock and have fun. Every single time. The answer should never be "stay docked, it's not worth risking 20/40/500m extra." CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
Mallak Azaria GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 6541	Posted - 2015.12.10 00:31:35 - [28] - Quote Tammy Torps wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: Bubbles are the only thing that keeps null and WH free of "everyone in slaves and +6 implants all the time". I like it that way. For some, less complexity and risk is better. Mallak Azaria wrote: Attribute implants are being removed eventually not because people don't want to lose them, but because it's frankly grossly unfair to new players that older players train faster because they have more space money. Making the playing field equal in this regard is not a bad thing. Making pods immune to bubbles however is a terrible idea. Attribute implants are fairly cheap on the whole. The difference in training time between +4 and +5 is minimal and plus 4 implants cost less than 20 mill. What is that like 15 cents? But your logic of "everything needs to be fair to new poor players" fails in so many ways in eve. Not the least of which is the other implants that give considerable advantages like the pirate implants. It is interesting that it is a null sec alliance like goons that push for this attribute implant elimination. I can't speak for other people in my alliance because everyone has their own opinion about things. I've wanted to see attribute implants gone since the learning skills abolition for the same reason that those skills were abolished & that was years before my GoonWaffe days. The attribute difference is minimal until you factor in longer periods of time. The idea behind the attribute changes that were voiced at EDU is much like how the learning skills were done: Everyone will have the same base attributes & generate the same skill points at the same rate. Implants that give other bonuses will obviously remain in the game minus their attribute bonuses. One thing EVE isn't short on is new people coming to the game, what it is short on is new people that continue playing & this is a change that will simplify the silly attribute/skillpoint generation system. Given that I've only ever pushed for two changes for the betterment of new players, your assumption that my logic is "everything needs to be fair to new poor players" fails in so many ways. This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2757	Posted - 2015.12.10 02:53:58 - [29] - Quote I'd rather see new illegal implants added to the game that are cheaper than legal implants but are forcibly removed from your head when you fly through policed space. This would allow bubbles to catch pods but still grant a cheaper implant option for those who experience higher levels of nonconsensual PVP. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Tammy Torps Rude Lee and The Vexor Underground 1	Posted - 2015.12.10 16:09:42 - [30] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: Tammy Torps wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: but all implants should give an immediate benefit to the ship's pilot while it is actually being used. You keep claiming this but you never actually defend your claim. Here is what I said against this claim: There are other implants that give bonuses for things other than combat for ex refining. Should they all be removed because you don't want anyone to risk them when they undock? Your whole view that benefits that effect your ship should be risked but benefits that don't effect your ship should never be risked, is artificial and unjustified. Eve is about letting players choose what risks are worth it and which are not. Your view that ccp should take those choices away is eroding the game. No, I want to see meaningful choices. Not irrational or stupid ones. Assuming that I am not filthy rich, if I jump into a +5 clone, the most rational choice is to not undock, which is not very fun, or only undock if I then take almost no risks (such as staying in high sec running missions or flying one of 200 Archons in a blob), or I can risk a pod worth ten times the value of my ship for no immediate benefit. Or you can go to low sec and pvp and have fun because there bubbles won't catch your pod. It is telling that you left out that option. If you are not filthy rich you may not want to buy +5s in any case and buy the much more reasonably priced +4s which cost less than 20 mill. (or 15 US pennies, if you pay for items with plex) It is simply false that you get no immediate benefit from attribute implants. And whether the benefit is "immediate" or not is irrelevant. The benefit from attribute implants is that you train faster. The reward/benefit is clear. The risk is also clear. Most people find the risk reward reasonable in all places except where bubbles exist. Your view of removing the choices and consequences from players is bad for the reasons I went into above. FT Diomedes wrote: I would prefer to see meaningful choices and increased rewards for increased risks. To me, a meaningful choice is "Do I fly an empty pod in this drunk T1 frigate roam? Or do I plug in my Snake set and take out my Orthrus? Or do I plug in Slaves and jump in my Abaddon?" Ideally, a player should be able to make all three of those decisions in the same hour. I should not be basically precluded from having fun on a drunken frigate roam because I clone jumped to my Slave set twelve hours ago. That is a terrible choice. It seems you agree with me then. Because if you know what you are doing the only reason you wouldn't be able to do the frigate roam with your slave set is if you are going somewhere with bubbles. FT Diomedes wrote: I want to catch that elite solo player in his Orthrus, kill him, and kill his juicy Snake set too (while I risk my Virtue set probing down his off-grid booster). I do not particularly get excited when I catch someone in their refining clone in a Caracal fleet. That was a bad choice to force on the Caracal pilot. Either he was stupid, he forgot, or he really wanted to have fun out in space. I want it to be a no brainer decision to undock and have fun. Every single time. The answer should never be "stay docked, it's not worth risking 20/40/500m extra." Again that is the point of this proposal. Bubbles holding pods is the main reason to stay docked if you have expensive implants. Rather than removing choices and consequences by removing implants we should address the root of the problem. Bubbles holding pods is the problem. Mallak Azaria You refer to the "silly" attribute skill training system. But that is of course a major part of eve and one that keeps many people coming back to the game. You seem to just want to gut the consequences and choices involved in this base part of the game. IMO that contributes to the erosion of the eve player base. Keep choices keep consequences instead remove the the lame shooting fish in a barrel mechanic of pods not warping in bubbles. I would point out that both of you refused to answer the questions I put to you.

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