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Racial Ewar is Unbalanced.

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Matthew Dust Mostly Sober Dead Terrorists 52	Posted - 2015.12.19 09:52:07 - [1] - Quote T1 Amarr EWAR (non navy/t2) Ships get bonuses to the following: Neuts (Armageddon) Nos (Armageddon) Tracking Speed Disruption (Crucifier, Arbitrator) Optimal Range Disruption (Crucifer, Arbitrator) Missile Guidance Precision Disruption (Crucifier, Arbitrator) Missile Guidance Range Disruption (Cruicfier, Arbitrator) T1 Gallente (non navy/t2) Sensor Damp Range (Maulus, Celestis) Sensor Damp Scan Res (Maulus, Celestis) T1 Caldari (non navy/t2) ECM Burst (Scorpion) ECM Target Jamming for Amarr (Scorpion, Blackbird, Griffin) ECM Target Jamming for Caldari (Scorpion, Blackbird, Griffin) ECM Target Jamming for Gallente (Scorpion, Blackbird, Griffin) ECM Target Jamming for Minmatar (Scorpion, Blackbird, Griffin) T1 Minmatar (non navy/t2) Target Painting (Vigil, Bellicose) I'm seeing a significant Bias, How about viable ewar for Minmatar, you know one that effects the enemies ability to shoot, you can steal one from amarr for all I care, just something other than the "most useless ewar" (paraphrase from every player in EVE) target painting. (more suited for Caldari Ships anyways)
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2808	Posted - 2015.12.19 09:58:07 - [2] - Quote Note how if you actually create one line for each ewar rather than splitting them out into the maximum number of aspects they can affect you end up with one line per race. With Neuts & NOS being both the same category and not ewar. I.E. Stop trying to find a bias that doesn't exist.
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 1100	Posted - 2015.12.19 10:06:23 - [3] - Quote First... If you have a legitimate point, you don't have to fluff your argument. Try this: Amarr: Weapon Disruption Cap Warfare Gallente: Sensor Damps Caldari: Ewar Minmitar: Target Painting Now, that's a bit more manageable, and still shows the bias. Amarr get 2, everyone else gets one. The outliers are cap warfare, since not everyone uses Cap to fire their weapons, and Target Painting which negatively impacts enemies defense instead of offense. Amarr were always a little Odd with that, as Weapon Disruption used to just be tracking disruption, and so didn't affect all weapons. It seem appropriate that they would have a backup, except Cap Warfare is tremendously powerful in it's own right as it affects much more than just the enemies offense in a very brutal fashion, and yet despite it's power it also does not work against missiles or drones. I could see transitioning Target Painting as a partner to Weapon Disruption, and maybe sharing it between Amarr and Minmatar
Iain Cariaba 2214	Posted - 2015.12.19 10:12:01 - [4] - Quote Matthew Dust wrote: T1 Amarr EWAR (non navy/t2) Ships get bonuses to the following: Neuts (Armageddon) Nos (Armageddon) Tracking Speed Disruption (Crucifier, Arbitrator) Optimal Range Disruption (Crucifer, Arbitrator) Missile Guidance Precision Disruption (Crucifier, Arbitrator) Missile Guidance Range Disruption (Cruicfier, Arbitrator) T1 Gallente (non navy/t2) Sensor Damp Range (Maulus, Celestis) Sensor Damp Scan Res (Maulus, Celestis) T1 Caldari (non navy/t2) ECM Burst (Scorpion) ECM Target Jamming for Amarr (Scorpion, Blackbird, Griffin) ECM Target Jamming for Caldari (Scorpion, Blackbird, Griffin) ECM Target Jamming for Gallente (Scorpion, Blackbird, Griffin) ECM Target Jamming for Minmatar (Scorpion, Blackbird, Griffin) T1 Minmatar (non navy/t2) Target Painting (Vigil, Bellicose) I'm seeing a significant Bias, How about viable ewar for Minmatar, you know one that effects the enemies ability to shoot, you can steal one from amarr for all I care, just something other than the "most useless ewar" (paraphrase from every player in EVE) target painting. (more suited for Caldari Ships anyways) Nope. Amarr - Weapon disruption Gallente - Sensor Dampening Caldari - Jamming Minmatar - Target Painting Besides, target painting is a very, very nice form of ewar. Makes your target appear bigger and easier to hit. Target paiting is the only form of ewar that will actually let you apply more damage to your target, where the other 3 forms effect your target's ability to apply damage. EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid. I couldn't have said it better. Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 1100	Posted - 2015.12.19 10:17:23 - [5] - Quote To be fair, Ewar is usually considered to be Ewar, along with other more universal forms of aggression like webs and points.
Sitting Bull Lakota Careless Bears LLC 45	Posted - 2015.12.19 10:17:33 - [6] - Quote Ah, but you see, simply looking to balance each faction's access to ewar in a vacuum would be illogical. Amarr may have the most access to ewar, but they pay for it in that their ships tend to be unagile with cap heavy, moderately damaging, poor tracking weapons with high fitting costs. Gallente's relative lack of ewar is made up for by their excellent damage, speed, and brawling capabilities. Minmatar's ewar actually widens the gap between their ships' sig radii (some of the lowest in the game) and their painted targets. I'm not a caldari flier, so I don't know much about ecm other than being jammed is brutal.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 148	Posted - 2015.12.19 10:21:54 - [7] - Quote Rather: Amarr: Weapon Disruption Cap Warfare Gallente: Sensor Damps Long Scrams Caldari: ECM Minmitar: Target Painting Long Webs It is regrettable Caldari have only 1 EWar, but it is generally understood it is the most feared form of EWar. Take into account range dictation and cap warfare are not actually electronic warfare, and it's looking acceptable to me.
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 1100	Posted - 2015.12.19 10:22:16 - [8] - Quote Before Tracking Disruption was Weapon Disruption I would see no point in this. Now that weapon disruption works on turrets and missiles... Seems like that's all they would need. Cap Warfare is terrifying for everyone but the Caldari, and even they can't ignore it completely.
Arya Regnar Darwins Right Hand 823	Posted - 2015.12.19 11:24:17 - [9] - Quote How about you try this Caldari: Ecm Ecm burst Amarr: TD Neuts/nos Minmatar: Webs Painters Gallente: Damps Point/scram range Does it still look broken? OH WAIT... They all have 2. EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Matthew Dust Mostly Sober Dead Terrorists 53	Posted - 2015.12.19 13:22:27 - [10] - Quote Rather than get emotional and knitpick your terrible replies, When is the last time you said to your FC "Don't worry, I got him target painted." or "FC I'm target painted!" Also I'm sorry that I pointed out that 2 races have battleships dedicated to EWAR and that every EWAR provides options, except Minmatar. - Those of you who want to mention Tech2 ships, well there's a difference between scrams and points, it is warp disruption, but both very different. Some of you forgot the new missile guidance disruption. - Web range is great, and would like to see that as Minmatar's only form of Ewar, and the t2 ships could get web effectiveness. - Cry all you want, the bottom line is, t1 min ewar got a huge shaft, because target painters suck super bad and everyone in EVE knows it. You would sooner use a tracking computer/enhancers/rigs (missiles and turrets) than you would a target painter.
Xercodo Xovoni Directorate 4284	Posted - 2015.12.19 13:36:59 - [11] - Quote I could see giving the typhoon a TP bonus to fit in with its missiles and for TPs get get a buff overall, but that's about it. Caldari and Amarr have their same bonuses at T1 and T2, but gallente and Minmatar, being the fast skirmishers gain an extra range-dictation bonus at T2. It keeps them grouped together nicely, while still remaining different. Same sort of thing applies to the logi really. The amarr and caldari have cap bonuses with no bonus to other assistance modules, whereas Gallente and Minmatar logi have the ability to run solo and use tracking links. The Drake is a Lie
Matthew Dust Mostly Sober Dead Terrorists 53	Posted - 2015.12.19 13:49:15 - [12] - Quote IMO There's no need for target painters at all, dealing with small signature radius's is dealt with by appropriate weapon classes, and tracking/missile guidance computers/enhancers/rigs, If they got a significant buff that made battleships with torps hit cruisers/dessies for more dps than maybe they'd be better. Target painters at their current level are inferior to tracking/missile guidance computers/enhancers/rigs
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 152	Posted - 2015.12.19 14:39:46 - [13] - Quote Target Painters actually perform better than tracking computers, and at longer range than webs, so there's that. They also help your fleet and not just yourself. The trouble is in people's understanding of turret tracking. It's a multiplication, where sigradius/weapon sig is an equally valid strategy to improve your tracking. Most peeps tend to focus on "getting rid of speed" (ergo: webs) although blowing up their sigradius is as far as the game engine is concerned identically the same thing. This not to say "learn to use them", but .... yeah. Under-appreciated. People won't go all "FC I'm painted" but they will be like "LOGI FAILED I GOT P*WNED!!". Perception...
Maria Dragoon Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 65	Posted - 2015.12.19 15:06:05 - [14] - Quote I happen to like my target painter thank you very much. It very useful for tracking another fast moving ship when I'm in a fast moving ship of my own.
FT Diomedes The Graduates 2060	Posted - 2015.12.19 15:12:33 - [15] - Quote If you are in a battlecruiser fighting a torpedo ship, you should be very concerned when you get target painted. CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
Iain Cariaba 2222	Posted - 2015.12.19 15:32:36 - [16] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: If you are in a battlecruiser fighting a torpedo ship, you should be very concerned when you get target painted. Smart bomber pilots fit painters, because painters make their targets big enough for torps to hit. EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid. I couldn't have said it better. Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2915	Posted - 2015.12.19 16:11:28 - [17] - Quote TP's arent bad. But there isnt much reason to bring more than 1 or 2. Considering they amplify the damage of any and all weapons fired at the painted target and work at 10x the range of webs, they are widely applicable and not at all useless. Perhaps your problem is that you are thinking of this purely from a solo perspective. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Lugh Crow-Slave 1349	Posted - 2015.12.19 16:30:34 - [18] - Quote The people who think target painters are weak don't understand when/how to use them Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
Arya Regnar Darwins Right Hand 824	Posted - 2015.12.19 17:30:34 - [19] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: The people who think target painters are weak don't understand when/how to use them https://zkillboard.com/kill/46397422/ I agree with you. Painting something to 5-8 times their size is just as strong as 90% webs. That bellicose had 4 painters. EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Arla Sarain 719	Posted - 2015.12.19 18:12:30 - [20] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: The trouble is in people's understanding of turret tracking. It's a multiplication, where sigradius/weapon sig is an equally valid strategy to improve your tracking. Most peeps tend to focus on "getting rid of speed" (ergo: webs) although blowing up their sigradius is as far as the game engine is concerned identically the same thing. Webs factor in a difference of 2.5x whilst even bonused painters overheated with links cap out at +94% or something. Only redeeming quality of TPs is range. I've also tried both TPs and webs on certain hulls (rather than double webs - to let my target pick up speed and increase transversal), and the benefit of the TP was minimal and hardly worth the slot investment.
Arya Regnar Darwins Right Hand 825	Posted - 2015.12.19 18:19:18 - [21] - Quote Arla Sarain wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: The trouble is in people's understanding of turret tracking. It's a multiplication, where sigradius/weapon sig is an equally valid strategy to improve your tracking. Most peeps tend to focus on "getting rid of speed" (ergo: webs) although blowing up their sigradius is as far as the game engine is concerned identically the same thing. Webs factor in a difference of 2.5x whilst even bonused painters overheated with links cap out at +94% or something. Only redeeming quality of TPs is range. I've also tried both TPs and webs on certain hulls (rather than double webs - to let my target pick up speed and increase transversal), and the benefit of the TP was minimal and hardly worth the slot investment. Maybe TPs are meant as an upgrade to webs? And range part is not negligible, you can TP with 5m vigils from 120 km and increase damage application by 200%, can't do the same with webs. Let's not even get into the debate about missiles or torpedos specifically, bombers would be worthless without TPs in a lot of engagements. EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Maria Dragoon Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 66	Posted - 2015.12.19 20:47:32 - [22] - Quote Arla Sarain wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: The trouble is in people's understanding of turret tracking. It's a multiplication, where sigradius/weapon sig is an equally valid strategy to improve your tracking. Most peeps tend to focus on "getting rid of speed" (ergo: webs) although blowing up their sigradius is as far as the game engine is concerned identically the same thing. Webs factor in a difference of 2.5x whilst even bonused painters overheated with links cap out at +94% or something. Only redeeming quality of TPs is range. I've also tried both TPs and webs on certain hulls (rather than double webs - to let my target pick up speed and increase transversal), and the benefit of the TP was minimal and hardly worth the slot investment. Yes, but you have to think of it this way as well, first of all, TP doesn't only make a ship easier to hit, it makes it easier to lock. this becomes super useful for instant lock ships in small gangs because not only can that lock a target, and then allow their entire gang to lock that target that much faster to bring their weapons to bear. It also a percentage based, that means a large ship will be that much larger and easier to apply max damage to. Sure webs make a target slower that much easier to hit, but a good target painting ship in small gang and even large fleet warfare will make killing another ship that much faster.
Madd Adda 152	Posted - 2015.12.19 21:04:01 - [23] - Quote i would agree if we couldn't train into any ship outside our default race. Since this isn't the case, what stops you from training into those lines? Carebear extraordinaire
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2804	Posted - 2015.12.20 00:27:36 - [24] - Quote I'd like to see racial EWAR like this: Amarr Primary: weapon disruption (type: disruption) Secondary: capacitor warfare (type: disruption/vulnerablizing combo) Tertiary: Ladar ECM (type: disruption) Caldari Primary: defender missiles (should also affect drones) (type: disruption) Secondary: multispectral ECM (type: disruption) Tertiary: Magnetometric ECM (type: disruption) Gallente Primary: sensor dampening (type: disruption) Secondary: warp jamming (type: vulnerablizing) Tertiary: Gravimetric ECM (type: disruption) Minmatar Primary: target painting (type: vulnerablizing) Secondary: stasis webification (type: vulnerablizing) Tertiary: Radar ECM (type: disruption) What you may notice about this layout is that you have a very fair racial EWAR layout, with all races getting at least one that's highly effective in a wide variety of situations, and no race getting anything that works on all targets. I have taken racial ECM away from Caldari and spread it out to all the races as a tertiary, perhaps a role bonus thrown in onto their EWAR ships but just for that specific type. Caldari now gets a bonus to multispectral ECM specifically, so they can fit just one or two jammers like everyone else, their jammers will work the same on any race target but will be weaker than a racial bonused jammer. There is also a distinct racial flavor here: Caldari is fully disruption focused while Minmatar is fully vulnerablizing focused. Disruption refers to EWAR that prevents the target from mounting an offense, while vulnerablizing EWAR is an attack on the target that makes them more vulnerable in combat. Amarr and Gallente are balanced, having both types in their primary/secondary layout. This change would also come with a massive rebalance of defender missiles, as it will become Caldari's primary disruption and must therefore be something they can rely on. I'm picturing it dealing damage to missiles and drones: fatal damage to missiles and light damage plus a stun effect to drones. It can be the same damage on either, but drones just have a lot more hit points than missiles do. This disruption system will not be evenly effective against all targets but instead will be best against ships that use missiles and drones. There is a lore-based reasoning behind it, too, as Caldari are both strongly missile-oriented and have a need to combat drone users due to their enemy being the Gallente. I have allowed Amarr to keep their energy warfare bonuses despite it being somewhat of a blanket EWAR system, and let me explain why, let me explain how it differs from ECM: 1.) A ship that doesn't rely on capacitor is still effective, while a ship that doesn't rely on targeting is basically useless. Smartbombs have a highly niche usage, and F.o.F. missiles--true to the name--will hit friendly targets. But a ship with shield amplifiers or energized membranes, using capless weapons, can fight just fine without its capacitor. 2.) ECM jammers have a long range and become effective immediately if successful. Energy warfare modules have a short range and they take time to drain the opponent's capacitor, meanwhile you're draining your own, also yours and your opponent's capacitor are regenerating. It's a tug of war in which you must mount a considerable capacitor offensive to make a huge difference to your opponent--unlike ECM in which one jammer module in a mid slot can completely shut off the opponent from attacking. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 156	Posted - 2015.12.20 01:09:30 - [25] - Quote Ummm. No? More importantly: WHY?

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