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NiBk	Posted - 2007.01.16 22:50:00 - [31] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Ce'lestis Edited by: Ce''lestis on 16/01/2007 21:58:14 Originally by: Hamshoe Where's the risk in selling codes? Where's the risk in L4 highsec mission running? You've clearly never heard of loft, or others like him. Not all of us are stupid enough to accept random gang invites.
Irrilian Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.01.16 22:50:00 - [32] Originally by: NiBk Originally by: Irrilian I was playing Monopoly earlier today. [snip] Worst Analogy Ever. Id disagree, of course. I think the analogy is sound and demonstrates the absurdity of the situation. A game has a certain set of rules, assumptions and preconditions, GTC for ISK sales bend the rules of the game. The economic landscape is as much a battlefield as any other in Eve, not just cutthroat traders outbidding one another, but the ability of one entity to compete against another in the long term is determined by their economic and industrial strength, just how long they can keep outfitting their pvpers with expensive ships to fly. Injects of outside ISK from GTC for ISK sales disrupts this to the long term detriment of the game. PIs and Forensic Accountants: adding risk vs reward for scams and thievery
Feerax FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.16 23:03:00 - [33] Originally by: Keira Skywatcher OK, so CCP allow the sale of GTC's for ISK, it's not to everyones liking but its part of the game. This thread here shows exactly what people are getting away with http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=437901 IMO, this is complete abuse - 15 pages of sales in which the seller has amassed absolutely truckloads of ISK. CCP need to look into this, it's outrageous to be honest. QQ
NiBk	Posted - 2007.01.16 23:11:00 - [34] Originally by: Irrilian Originally by: NiBk Originally by: Irrilian I was playing Monopoly earlier today. [snip] Worst Analogy Ever. Id disagree, of course. I think [Snip] . The analogy isnt sound as Hasbro unfortunately doesnt allow the use of a second boxes contents for use in the first game, so there is the ***** in your armour. Good day to you sir.
Galk Gallente Autumn Tactics All the things she said	Posted - 2007.01.16 23:16:00 - [35] Originally by: NiBk The analogy isnt sound as Hasbro unfortunately doesnt allow the use of a second boxes contents for use in the first game, 45 minutes to go on the day, iv'e had a few smiles today, thats the biggest of the lot. nice one, i liked that ______
Irrilian Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.01.16 23:18:00 - [36] Edited by: Irrilian on 16/01/2007 23:15:55 Originally by: NiBk The analogy isnt sound as Hasbro unfortunately doesnt allow the use of a second boxes contents for use in the first game, so there is the ***** in your armour. Good day to you sir. Im sure I can entertain you with other analogies all night. However that's missing the point, which is that there is a problem with the very rules of the game, an oversight which some feel those that set the rules need to fix. EDIT: And to further the point, please consider why Hasbro might have specifically disallowed the use of extra sets in their games. PIs and Forensic Accountants: adding risk vs reward for scams and thievery
Ariel Dawn SniggWaffe	Posted - 2007.01.16 23:54:00 - [37] Originally by: Barry Cantona If these people are that sad IRL that they need to spend 1000s of pounds/dollars on a game, then let them, its their stupidity, not ours. Not that I support people buying ISK or whatnot, but... Max ISK/Hour for the average player ranges from 20-50m If you take the wage of an average job that one would expect most EVE players to be capable of, it converts to something around 220m ISK or so after GTCs, and I'm sure lots of people can do far better. Therefore, wouldn't it be more stupid mindlessly grinding ISK when one could buy GTCs at and get a far greater value for their hours and be able to enjoy the game without the mind-numbing tasts of mining or ratting? I don't recall anyone important ever saying that video games have to stay completely separate from real life either. A wealthy person already has the advantage with a superior computer which impacts greatly on the majority of online games, should they be forced to play on crappy rigs because others can't afford it?
Recluse Viramor Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.17 00:02:00 - [38] GTC's are CCP's way of managing isk sales and its becoming more common in the industry, such as SOE's station marketplace. Though I think its completely wrong and unethical and it will ultimately underminw the sandbox economy of EVE. Signature filesize exceeds max limit of 24000 bytes. Mail us if you have questions -Ivan K
w0rmy Intensive CareBearz	Posted - 2007.01.17 00:10:00 - [39] Edited by: w0rmy on 17/01/2007 00:08:14 Originally by: Galk Buying your way ahead in EVE is cheating, pure and simple How so? An employed person selling 1 GTC a week gains what advantage over An unemployed bum playing eve for 100 hours a week? Doesnt sound like cheating to me, no advantage is gained. Whats the difference between you giving me 100mill isk, or giving me 100mill isk for a GTC. They have the same effect on the game... More people in ships playing is good, not bad. EDIT: And since when did more ISK give you an advantage over anyone else? Being wealthy sure hasnt helped out any of the super power alliances that have fallen. Originally by: The 'The Brainiac' Enslaver how much I know is at best laughable. Originally by: Nebba 'e-thuggles' Kenezzer Xirt, I have a navigator system in my car, I will NOT get lost.
Amadeus Brasky Templars of Space CORE.	Posted - 2007.01.17 00:15:00 - [40] I really think this all boils down to my theory that EVE once again captures more "human nature" than any other game out there. In real life, some people work for minimum wage, grinding out countless hours on the job, go home and feel a real sense of acciomplishment for every penny they earn. Some people take the easy way out. Some people hit the lottery. Some people steal money from others. And yes, some people have more than others, sometimes to the extent that they spend it frivilously. Me? If I started buying isk, it would completely take away why I play, and the feeling of accomplishment I get after I take out someone in a PVP gang with my t1 fitted merlin or probe out a mag site and reap some t2 rig BPCs. That's just me. Brasky T2 Rig BPCs for Sale

J Valkor	Posted - 2007.01.17 00:18:00 - [41] While they ban selling GTC they should also ban having multiple accounts. Using IRL money to gain an advantage is soo unfair.
smashsmash	Posted - 2007.01.17 00:20:00 - [42] aww, come on man. you're killing me. can't you grace the eve forums with a more original pithy remark. that pleonasm has been retired even on the WoW forum for years. Originally by: Feerax QQ
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2007.01.17 00:31:00 - [43] yeah, implementation of the gtc sales is worst thing ccp probly ever did at first they were quick to say they didn't want RL money to mix into the game yadda yadda yadda <insert something inspiring and indicative of how CCP wants to protect the quality of the game for all players here> THEN they looked down the road. They saw the asian market and how they basically dont look too well at games that dont let their players buy their way through <insert something about how different their society is than the rest of the globe allowing for this behavior here> finally ccp realized it meant customer's (more money) to allow the asian market to do this. finding a middle ground would then be needed for our market. BUT, dont wanna let players do anything that would leave CCP outta the profit loop, so they introduced GTC sales in game. The ONLY ASPECT OF THE GAME WHERE THEY COULD GET THEIR FAIR SHARE OF EACH DEAL. and here you have it. for better or worse and here to stay. the green eyed monster at his best. all it takes is a little forum action and a big wallet and you too can have your very own NYX. situation normal, AFU
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2007.01.17 00:34:00 - [44] and they least THE VERY VERY LEAST CCP could do is make a seperate FRAKIN forum for the GTC sales. Quick clogging up the sales forums w/ ppl buying isk.
Galk Gallente Autumn Tactics All the things she said	Posted - 2007.01.17 00:46:00 - [45] Originally by: w0rmy Edited by: w0rmy on 17/01/2007 00:08:14 Originally by: Galk Buying your way ahead in EVE is cheating, pure and simple How so? I was quoting the senior GM. He said a lot of things about the evil of ebay in a blog. Mainly leading on morale issues of the concequences of isk trading in relation to game balance and the effect isk buyers have on and against those that choose to play the game in fair manner. Ofc as we all know, including that gm, people have just replaced the word ebay with timecodes. Where did the mighty morale stance go? I could quote the blog all night in truth As i said..... when you see people plain admit they fund their pvp activity in eve because it's too much of a hassle to mine or run missions because it's easier just to sell a code or two... read on: "Recently, we have noticed that the trend seems to be that ISK buyers are investing even more heavily than before, sometimes up to one, or over a billion ISK at a time. Needless to say, by illegally obtaining such amounts of ISK, the offending players are not only cheating, but their actions can severely affect other players, who are put at an unfair disadvantage in many vital areas of the game, such as in PVP and in the market. We do not intend to allow people to ruin the gaming experience for other players through this most lazy and underhanded way of achieving your goals in EVE. " Ofc to be fair he did say illegal (in relation to ebay) But to totaly ignore the compares of the two (legalised timecode for isk selling and ebay), you would have to disenfrancise the morales of everything he said... which is imposable for any fair open mind to do so. I think buying gtc's for isk it's a rather lazy and underhanded way of achiving your goals in eve. Linkage The lot is here if you care to read it. Im done with this thread now anyway, to me the situation is very clear, the rest is just derailing, i quote facts, not what if's. ______
w0rmy Intensive CareBearz	Posted - 2007.01.17 00:52:00 - [46] Originally by: HankMurphy and they least THE VERY VERY LEAST CCP could do is make a seperate FRAKIN forum for the GTC sales. I dont think theres anyone who would disagree with this! Originally by: The 'The Brainiac' Enslaver how much I know is at best laughable. Originally by: Nebba 'e-thuggles' Kenezzer Xirt, I have a navigator system in my car, I will NOT get lost.
Moraguth Amarr Rangers	Posted - 2007.01.17 01:03:00 - [47] Quote: Where's the risk in L4 highsec mission running? Where's the risk in winning the T2 BPO lottery? Where's the risk in trading in highsec Empire with a freighter in a newbie corp? Where's the risk in Cap Recharger II invention? People get probed down in missions. I think it's 4% chance per every what... 30 second scan. so 25 scans = 12.5 min. yes, I know statistics doesn't work that way, but it's pretty close. Average Level 4 mission? maybe i do them slow or something, but it usually takes me 20 min. To win the tech 2 lottery, you had to do missions, see above. you got me on the frieghter thing, but i have to think, they had to make the money for that freighter at some time, maybe you just missed your chance? Cap recharger 2 invention. Heh, don't even get me started on the risk/reward of exploration missions. besides the NPCs, you have to be out of the station alot, or again have money from somewhere to even get started with that. And to the person who said "don't let people have multiple accounts" I agree. HOWEVER, with all my arguements against multiple accounts and with selling GTC, the reason it is allowed is because it CAN"T be stopped. There is NO POSSIBLE way to stop it. Allowing it just let's CCP regulate it to make sure it doesn't get out of hand. good game
Copine Callmeknau The Splinter Syndicate SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 02:57:00 - [48] Why do I care? For me it's just somebody else paying for my accounts, fine by me :) ----- Originally by: wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you where tuxford.
Dai007 Caldari Crabbs	Posted - 2007.01.17 03:04:00 - [49] Everything is revolved around money. Some kid with a rich mommy and daddy can get their isk alot easier than the rest of the people. But it doesn't affect anyone, aslong as the GTC sales are followed by the rules then there is no problem. I think it was a great idea, it helped alot with people selling ISK. Now people don't have to sell isk, they can exchange them for game cards. They are not causing any harm so they are not abusing the system. Abuse does also mean excessive use of something, but will CCP really care?, they are getting instant sales from GTC sellers, they're sale charts have prob hit the roof because of GTC selling. Its great for them.
meepsheep	Posted - 2007.01.17 03:06:00 - [50] i would love to win the RL lottery i would buy enough gtc to purchase a mothership for everyone in the same corp as me. would be funny seeing how gtc dont effect eve.

Dai007 Caldari Crabbs	Posted - 2007.01.17 03:08:00 - [51] Winning the lottery and still playing eve.., wow sad
meepsheep	Posted - 2007.01.17 03:19:00 - [52] what else would you expect me to do? what you want me to play second life instead? if you have no idea what that is look it up alot of rich people play it
Arian Snow The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.17 03:29:00 - [53] Originally by: Alowishus What do you care? How does it affect your gameplay? Jealous that you don't $4000 to spend buying isk from CCP (which is what selling GTC essentially is)? Yes, they're using IRL money to gain an ingame advantage but so is anyone who sells a char for isk or uses two accounts to mine/npc/agent more efficiently. Deal with it. Jealous I dont think so, you have to be an idiot shelling out 4000$ on isk. If you've got thousands of dollars burning a hole in your pocket donate them to people that needs them, you know starving kids and such! I dont remember I dont recall I dont have memory of anything at all!
Phrixus Zephyr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.01.17 03:36:00 - [54] I tell you this for nothing. If i start earning a truckload of surplus money at my job or I win the lottery, you can bet your ass ill be selling GTC's. If you're honestly saying you wouldn't do the same you're a god damned liar. Originally by: Nev Clavain If a war of such scale does go down the sheer forum activity will probably put the server down for good.
Arian Snow The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.17 03:40:00 - [55] Edited by: Arian Snow on 17/01/2007 03:40:27 EDIT: No you are an idiot and we are not liars! If I somehow got millions of dollars in hand I wouldn't spend it on buying ekstralives in a computergame, thats just ******* lame. I stopped cheating when I was 7! I dont remember I dont recall I dont have memory of anything at all!
Soporo	Posted - 2007.01.17 04:10:00 - [56] It's the fact that no matter how smart, or good, or lucky IN-GAME I am... I will never be able to contend with these sellers/buyers in the Market or PvP or anywhere else. That's whats sour. Any thundering retard that suggests I spend more money on it is totally missing the point.
Forando Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.01.17 04:32:00 - [57] Hmm, not sure where I stand in this thing.. On one side it seems to help some players keep thier account running, some which normally would have trouble with it. Noble action, indeed. If sellers can live with logging in and handling this, has the wallet to support it and if buyers has the time to farm the ISK (and NOT use macros!) - Then who am I to complain; both sides I could take part of myself if I was willing, right? But I was under the impression that EVE was one of the MMO's with the most 'living' economy, worker classes, manufactures, end-users etc. The whole symphony of this is playing inside EVE. The point where you start 'importing' goods from the AFK-Dimension, aren't we tainting this living market? Importing over the real-life/game borders comes at the tax of destroying the in-game ecomony to a certain point, you must agree. If it is acceptable is another thing. As a relative new player, I can't say I've directly been affected by it, I simply wouldn't know it chuckles ..but I just had to pin-point one of the downfalls of allowing GTS, or any other out-of-EVE content for that matter, to be sold for ISK. Enjoy, and fly safe!
Tarkan Kador Amarr PanTarkan Kador Holdings	Posted - 2007.01.17 04:48:00 - [58] Edited by: Tarkan Kador on 17/01/2007 04:48:25 Originally by: Dai007 But it doesn't affect anyone, aslong as the GTC sales are followed by the rules then there is no problem. It does cause harm, or at least it can, because we are treating GTCs like real or game currency. I posted something awhile back that shows why GTCs for ISK can cause a lot of harm to the financial stability of the service. I'll try and repeat it here. The myth that GTC sales for ISK can do no harm is rooted in the myth that GTCs are equivalent to either in game or real life currency. However, GTCs are not currency. They are vouchers for prepaid game time. In a sense, every time a GTC is sold by CCP, or a prepaid game time distributor, it means that CCP must grant someone service free of charge for the number of days indicated on the card. This is why GTC sales can't be considered "free money" for CCP. Yes, they can print and sell them with impunity. There is no theoretical limit as to how many prepaid vouchers can enter the market. The problem is that for every GTC that leaves Iceland, CCP is obligating itself to service some patron for free at a date not of CCP's choosing, but the final holder of the voucher. Far from acting like currency, GTCs act more like loans, or bonds that can be cashed in for game time at some future date. They can be good because, like bonds, prepaid vouchers can allow a provider to build revenue quickly, but this comes at a price. GTC cards do not have value in and of themselves. They only have value as long as there is an EVE service in which they can be cashed in. Unlike a subscription, where CCP can predict with some certainty when the money will be coming in, and how many patrons need to be serviced, GTCs throw any sort of predictability out the window, for the sake of cash in hand today. Now getting back to that guy who bought $4000 worth of GTCs. Those GTCs allow him to play for 18 years, and 3 months. Which brings up a very serious question. Will EVE still be here in 18 years? As soon as EVE announces it is being cancelled, what is going to happen to all those GTCs? They will become as worthless as the plastic they are printed on. Now the scary thing about this whole thing is that ISK is constantly being generated, buying GTCs that are being constantly generated. The only thing that isn't being constantly generated is consumption of GTCs. There are hard, fixed limits to consumption of GTCs. For starters, GTCs can only be consumed at a rate of one GTC/per account/per term. Whatever isn't consumed can be traded, or stockpiled. However, CCP gets no new revenue from GTCs, whether they are stockpiled, or traded. They are honoring revenue that has probably already been spent. Since ISK is being constantly created, GTCs are constantly being supplied, and GTCs are constantly being exchanged for ISK, there will eventually come a point where there will be more prepaid game time stockpiled than the population of Tranquility could ever possibly use. At that point, people will start cancelling subscriptions, in favor of using all that prepaid card time instead. However, when there is too much prepaid time already out there, and it is easily acquired, then CCP could be faced with thousands of subscribers with more prepaid vouchers than they could ever possibly honor, and the game will suffer financial collapse, thereby making those GTCs worthless. That is why GTC for ISK sales is a big problem that will become only bigger as the practice becomes more prevalent. Remember that this game has fixed operating costs each month that must be paid by revenue coming in. It depends on the people who pay, not the people who play. GTC for ISK trades separate these two, and all it takes is for a critical number of payers to stop buying GTCs and subscriptions, in favor of using all those stockpiled account/days of prepaid service vouchers instead. Scary stuff.
zibelthurdos	Posted - 2007.01.17 05:35:00 - [59] Originally by: Irrilian Originally by: NiBk Originally by: Irrilian I was playing Monopoly earlier today. [snip] Worst Analogy Ever. Id disagree, of course. I think the analogy is sound and demonstrates the absurdity of the situation. Snip.... allow me to explain why your analogy does not work... reverse it, "the other day i was playing eve and i wasn't making very much money and had very few items, so i wen out and purchased a CD-ROM containing items and money which i uploaded directly to my hanger," the reason hasbro doesn't allow for the use of other boxes would specifically be the game rules. on the game board there is only one spot marked for park place, all money in the game of monopoly is either passed from the bank or from other players, it, just like eve does not have a provision for the influx of outside resources. the analogy you should have used would have been, "the other day i was playing monopoly, i wasn't doing very well, however one of the other players was doing very well, so i offered to purchase his park place and half of his money for $50.00" and i don't have a problem with that.
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2007.01.17 05:47:00 - [60] Thanks to GTC's, my friends can play and I can recover from losing faction ships to blobs. Everyone wins except pennyless hippies without jobs Playing Caldari-Online as a Amarr specced is PURE Hardcore (aka. stupid).



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