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Increase SP acquisition for new accounts

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Vivias Xelnoa Council of Economic Advisors Bitter Vets n Noobs 0	Posted - 2015.12.21 00:51:48 - [1] - Quote Hi I'm new to Eve and I have to say I like the basics of the game and I think it have an amazing foundation but could do more to attract new players. My issue atm stems from the fact I feel like the mature players have such a leg up in every possible way and even with a year of play time it seems near impossible to even enter their playing field. So my suggestion is simple to CCP offer new accounts the option of accelerated training.. Something like 3x normal skill rate would help bring new players more quickly into the greater Eve verse. I understand some Vets might have issues with this as they did indeed play through the difficult times of Eve and my response is simple.. Do you want Eve to grow because I can personally attest that the learning curve is fine but the point curve is a problem.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 42110	Posted - 2015.12.21 01:04:07 - [2] - Quote There are implants you can use as a new player, to gain some initial acceleration. Specifically: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cerebral_Accelerator In addition to those, CCP are planning the introduction of skill packets that will allow characters to remove skillpoints and sell/trade them to other characters: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/exploring-the-character-bazaar-skill-trading/ Still in early stages, but maybe something around April next year. Lastly, all skills are capped at level 5, so even a veteran can't train skills beyond that. So while a veteran may have a lot more total skillpoints, it is possible as a new player to catch veterans in specific areas since not all skillpoints are useful all of the time. So it isn't really as big of a gap as it initially looks. If you specialise in one area, you'll catch up in the relevant skills fairly quickly. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 26574	Posted - 2015.12.21 01:05:18 - [3] - Quote You're too late. What you're asking for has already happened. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.3 - Vanguard Edition.
Remiel Pollard Shock Treatment Ministries 7002	Posted - 2015.12.21 01:11:16 - [4] - Quote My first day back, and this is the first thread I come across. I've said it before and I'll say it again - there are many people in EVE who have been here for a long time, and to get to that point, they survived the rate of SP accumulation as lowbies just fine. Call it a patience barrier, if you will, because even with the implants that help you boost your speed, many people seeking instant gratification will find the whole system unattractive and leave immediately. This is good for the game. I do want to see it grow, yes, despite having been away for a few months just now. But I don't want to see it grow at the cost of the game's nature and flavour, because then it won't be EVE anymore. That means it needs more of the right kind of player, and the patience barrier is one of those filters against the wrong kind. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Paul Pohl blue media poetry 79	Posted - 2015.12.21 01:15:42 - [5] - Quote If there is a problem, it is equating skill points to actual player skill.... speeding up the first does not speed up the latter
Vivias Xelnoa Council of Economic Advisors Bitter Vets n Noobs 0	Posted - 2015.12.21 01:19:18 - [6] - Quote Paul Pohl wrote: If there is a problem, it is equating skill points to actual player skill.... speeding up the first does not speed up the latter Indeed. Skill acquired in learning the game doesn't change.. It merely adjusts the background stats which give the vets an advantage. I get that they spent the time into the game and I'm not trying to remove that.. I just think speeding up the bar for new players is healthy for the game as a whole.
Vivias Xelnoa Council of Economic Advisors Bitter Vets n Noobs 0	Posted - 2015.12.21 01:23:36 - [7] - Quote Remiel Pollard wrote: My first day back, and this is the first thread I come across. Call it a patience barrier, if you will, because even with the implants that help you boost your speed, many people seeking instant gratification will find the whole system unattractive and leave immediately. This is good for the game. Can you elaborate why this system is good for Eve?
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 42110	Posted - 2015.12.21 01:26:19 - [8] - Quote Vivias Xelnoa wrote: I just think speeding up the bar for new players is healthy for the game as a whole. Based on current information, we aren't far away from that happening. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 26574	Posted - 2015.12.21 01:27:16 - [9] - Quote Vivias Xelnoa wrote: Paul Pohl wrote: If there is a problem, it is equating skill points to actual player skill.... speeding up the first does not speed up the latter Indeed. Skill acquired in learning the game doesn't change.. It merely adjusts the background stats which give the vets an advantage. I get that they spent the time into the game and I'm not trying to remove that.. I just think speeding up the bar for new players is healthy for the game as a whole. There's next to nothing to suggest that it would. When your idea was implemented, it had almost the opposite effect. A few iterations later and we've arrived at the current strategy for raising the bar for new players, and it too doesn't really affect the health of the game. It seems to be a fairly reasonable conclusion that the new player starting point is pretty much wholly unrelated to player retention. The actual problem is more one of new players making the same erroneous assumptions you're making, often based on completely different and unrelated game designs that have no bearing on EVE. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.3 - Vanguard Edition.
Vivias Xelnoa Council of Economic Advisors Bitter Vets n Noobs 0	Posted - 2015.12.21 01:36:16 - [10] - Quote removed.

Vivias Xelnoa Council of Economic Advisors Bitter Vets n Noobs 0	Posted - 2015.12.21 01:37:07 - [11] - Quote Tippia wrote: Vivias Xelnoa wrote: Paul Pohl wrote: If there is a problem, it is equating skill points to actual player skill.... speeding up the first does not speed up the latter Indeed. Skill acquired in learning the game doesn't change.. It merely adjusts the background stats which give the vets an advantage. I get that they spent the time into the game and I'm not trying to remove that.. I just think speeding up the bar for new players is healthy for the game as a whole. There's next to nothing to suggest that it would. When your idea was implemented, it had almost the opposite effect. A few iterations later and we've arrived at the current strategy for raising the bar for new players, and it too doesn't really affect the health of the game. It seems to be a fairly reasonable conclusion that the new player starting point is pretty much wholly unrelated to player retention. The actual problem is more one of new players making the same erroneous assumptions you're making, often based on completely different and unrelated game designs that have no bearing on EVE. Couldn't say retention for certain but I have a few friends who have always avoided Eve simply because of the skill system and not wishing to deal with being so far behind the curve. I don't see how speeding up SP gain wouldn't change the retention rate, but I think it would greatly influence new players trying Eve knowing they could more quickly catch up.
Vivias Xelnoa Council of Economic Advisors Bitter Vets n Noobs 0	Posted - 2015.12.21 01:38:46 - [12] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: There are boosters you can use as a new player, to gain some initial acceleration. Specifically: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cerebral_Accelerator In addition to those, CCP are planning the introduction of skill packets that will allow characters to remove skillpoints and sell/trade them to other characters: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/exploring-the-character-bazaar-skill-trading/ Still in early stages, but maybe something around April next year. Lastly, all skills are capped at level 5, so even a veteran can't train skills beyond that. So while a veteran may have a lot more total skillpoints, it is possible as a new player to catch veterans in specific areas since not all skillpoints are useful all of the time. So it isn't really as big of a gap as it initially looks. If you specialise in one area, you'll catch up in the relevant skills fairly quickly. Sure the boosters I got when I joined were cool. I just don't think it is enough. At this point I won't be spending further with this game and continue to wait for SC where they removed all artificial skill gains.
Gregor Parud Ordo Ardish 1878	Posted - 2015.12.21 01:40:20 - [13] - Quote Alt #45896 hammering GD to try and create a consensus.
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 3728	Posted - 2015.12.21 01:40:43 - [14] - Quote guys change the game to benefit low-patience casuals. this sure will help player retention long term.
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out 9246	Posted - 2015.12.21 01:44:32 - [15] - Quote The Skillpoint System and You tldr; you are only ineffective as an individual early on. As you mature you will gain effectiveness. In the meantime, you will learn from those you team up with... enhancing your effectiveness in the long run. How did you Veterans start? The Skillpoint System and You
Remiel Pollard Shock Treatment Ministries 7002	Posted - 2015.12.21 01:47:21 - [16] - Quote Vivias Xelnoa wrote: Remiel Pollard wrote: My first day back, and this is the first thread I come across. Call it a patience barrier, if you will, because even with the implants that help you boost your speed, many people seeking instant gratification will find the whole system unattractive and leave immediately. This is good for the game. Can you elaborate why this system is good for Eve? I already did, in the post you quoted from. But I'll rephrase. It acts as a filter against casuals and lightweights, the kinds of people turning gaming into a mobile QTE slideshow. I've spent the last few weeks playing Fallout 4 and despite loving the game, it lost a lot of its heart and soul when the dialogue wheel was introduced and the karma system removed. But I can't blame Bethesda for that, I can only blame the players who want gaming to be more like movies because making choices and having options is too hard. This is the kind of niche game that can't afford to take the route of mass appeal. If it does that, it won't be EVE anymore, and the game won't have won its audience on its unique merits alone. It would be like taking the frame and body of a Ferrari, and putting an economy four-cylinder engine in it to appeal to more people. It still looks like a Ferrari, but under the hood, it's the same little Daihatsu Charade everyone else is hopping around in. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 26575	Posted - 2015.12.21 01:51:32 - [17] - Quote Vivias Xelnoa wrote: Can you elaborate why this system is good for Eve? To add to what Remiel says and more related to the skill system itself. The current system is good GÇö not just for EVE but for almost any game that decides to implement it GÇö because it inherently removes the kinds of GÇ£old vs newGÇ¥ gap you're worried about. The skill system in this game is designed such that GÇ£catching upGÇ¥ isn't really even an applicable concept. There is exactly on thing that a new character can't GÇ£catch upGÇ¥ in relation to an older player: total SP. As luck would have it, total SP is a worthless stat. This state of affairs is an improvement over how things worked not that long ago when high total SP had some meaning GÇö a negative one. That negative result of high total SP is now gone, so now the total is meaningless. For everything else, GÇ£catching upGÇ¥ is not only trivial GÇö it is inevitable. That's why it can hardly even be said to apply to the game. But more than that, GÇ£catching up,GÇ¥ even if we were to submit that it exists, is also completely unnecessary. The concept you're looking for is applicable SP: the amount of abilities that are relevant to the current activity, ship, and context. In most cases, even if you max out everything, this number is less than a year's worth of SP. And even then, that year's worth of SP is trivially beaten by two month's worth due to how GÇ£maxing outGÇ¥ means you've wasted 80% of your time on almost entirely pointless modifiers that provides no tangible advantage. Quote: Couldn't say retention for certain but I have a few friends who have always avoided Eve simply because of the skill system and not wishing to deal with being so far behind the curve. I don't see how speeding up SP gain wouldn't change the retention rate, but I think it would greatly influence new players trying Eve knowing they could more quickly catch up. It wouldn't change the retention rate because those players would still believe they're behind the curve, and they'd still be as fundamentally wrong as they are right now. Their problem is one of ignorance, not of mechanics. The problem they perceive doesn't exist in EVE GÇö it's one they're assuming exists because it exists in other games that do not use the EVE skill system. In fact, that's the whole reason the problem exists in those other games. Again, what you're asking for has been tried. It had almost the opposite effect: new players just GÇ£did the timeGÇ¥ until the speed-up ended, and then started playing from that point insteadGÇª unless they gave up because they realised that they weren't actually playing the game. Right now, we have a system that starts new players further ahead. Ask your friends if they're willing to join now. Chances are that they'll still say no, in spite of this change, because the fundamental problem is still there: they assume the EVE skill system works in a way (or has consequences) that is almost diametrically opposed to reality. If your friends simply joined and played together, they'd be in a position to swat beta-age players by, oh, day 3 or so. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.3 - Vanguard Edition.
Vivias Xelnoa Council of Economic Advisors Bitter Vets n Noobs 0	Posted - 2015.12.21 01:51:53 - [18] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: guys change the game to benefit low-patience casuals. this sure will help player retention long term. Nice assumption there.. So being new equal casual? Been playing MMO's since UO and hardly a casual simply because I'm new to Eve.
Vivias Xelnoa Council of Economic Advisors Bitter Vets n Noobs 0	Posted - 2015.12.21 01:54:48 - [19] - Quote Remiel Pollard wrote: Vivias Xelnoa wrote: Remiel Pollard wrote: My first day back, and this is the first thread I come across. Call it a patience barrier, if you will, because even with the implants that help you boost your speed, many people seeking instant gratification will find the whole system unattractive and leave immediately. This is good for the game. Can you elaborate why this system is good for Eve? I already did, in the post you quoted from. But I'll rephrase. It acts as a filter against casuals and lightweights, the kinds of people turning gaming into a mobile QTE slideshow. I've spent the last few weeks playing Fallout 4 and despite loving the game, it lost a lot of its heart and soul when the dialogue wheel was introduced and the karma system removed. But I can't blame Bethesda for that, I can only blame the players who want gaming to be more like movies because making choices and having options is too hard. This is the kind of niche game that can't afford to take the route of mass appeal. If it does that, it won't be EVE anymore, and the game won't have won its audience on its unique merits alone. It would be like taking the frame and body of a Ferrari, and putting an economy four-cylinder engine in it to appeal to more people. It still looks like a Ferrari, but under the hood, it's the same little Daihatsu Charade everyone else is hopping around in. I didn't feel your explanation provided evidence for your comment and I still don't. The more I see players post here the more I get the 'Eve is for Elitists and new players are our *****' feel... and that's fine just very short sighted.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 26575	Posted - 2015.12.21 01:57:50 - [20] - Quote Vivias Xelnoa wrote: Vimsy Vortis wrote: guys change the game to benefit low-patience casuals. this sure will help player retention long term. Nice assumption there.. So being new equal casual? Nice assumption there. Note how he said nothing about being new and instead talks about having low patience? Quote: I didn't feel your explanation provided evidence for your comment and I still don't. Try reading it again. It was very straight-forward: this is a niche game. It involves having patience in most things. Getting rid of the niche means losing its customer base, and trying to replace that customer base with one that seeks instant gratification means that the new customers will soon be gone too. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.3 - Vanguard Edition.

Otso Bakarti Filial Pariahs 558	Posted - 2015.12.21 02:00:46 - [21] - Quote I can personally attest, we're beset by the Entitled By Birth crowd. Don't make me WAIT! I want it NOW!! There just isn't anything that can be said!
Vivias Xelnoa Council of Economic Advisors Bitter Vets n Noobs 0	Posted - 2015.12.21 02:01:21 - [22] - Quote Tippia wrote: Vivias Xelnoa wrote: Vimsy Vortis wrote: guys change the game to benefit low-patience casuals. this sure will help player retention long term. Nice assumption there.. So being new equal casual? Nice assumption there. Note how he said nothing about being new and instead talks about having low patience? Quote: I didn't feel your explanation provided evidence for your comment and I still don't. Try reading it again. It was very straight-forward: this is a niche game. It involves having patience in most things. Getting rid of the niche means losing its customer base, and trying to replace that customer base with one that seeks instant gratification means that the new customers will soon be gone too. You aren't helping to convince me of anything but the elitist want their special sandbox to shrink until it dies. That's your choice. Peace.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 26575	Posted - 2015.12.21 02:03:09 - [23] - Quote Vivias Xelnoa wrote: You aren't helping to convince me Try reading. Or don't. Your choice. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.3 - Vanguard Edition.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2807	Posted - 2015.12.21 02:13:43 - [24] - Quote What we need to attract new players is to help them understand how they can jump right up to the top with skills down at the bottom. It all starts, continues, and ends with frigates. You can and will do awesome things in a frigate. You might never do anything awesome in a battleship no matter how long you play or how skilled you get, but if you keep trying, you will most definitely do something completely awesome in a frigate. Once you understand how powerful a tool a frigate can be, you can take it one step further and learn to understand that even better than most veteran players. Once you're there, you can use your own skill and experience to surpass your character's skills and do something awesome or important. I cannot stress this enough: you will most certainly do something awesome and important faster by focusing on frigates than by focusing on anything else. The end-game in EVE starts when you finally realize that frigates are the end-game. Why play EVE? Aside from it being a sandbox where your moves change the game for everyone else, you can be part of a larger world, and you can reach the end-game almost immediately after starting. That's why. Boosting skillpoint training rates for new characters or new accounts will only help veteran players at strong expense to actual new players. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 42110	Posted - 2015.12.21 02:35:31 - [25] - Quote Vivias Xelnoa wrote: Sure the boosters I got when I joined were cool. I just don't think it is enough. At this point I won't be spending further with this game and continue to wait for SC where they removed all artificial skill gains. Oh ok. In that case, good luck I guess. Just a whinge thread in the end. Disappointing. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 26577	Posted - 2015.12.21 02:39:31 - [26] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Vivias Xelnoa wrote: Sure the boosters I got when I joined were cool. I just don't think it is enough. At this point I won't be spending further with this game and continue to wait for SC where they removed all artificial skill gains. Oh ok. In that case, good luck I guess. Just a whinge thread in the end. Disappointing. GÇªand by the time SC is out, the amount of SP you could have accumulated at current speeds in the meantime would probably be in the hundreds of millions. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.3 - Vanguard Edition.
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 3733	Posted - 2015.12.21 02:41:31 - [27] - Quote EVE isn't a game where the having of the biggest thing is important. This is not a conventional Themepark MMO where the gear rating of your character or your character's level is a barrier to content. Essentially all of the types of content in the game are available almost immediately to anyone with the will to become involved in that content. You can literally go into the recruitment channel and type in "I'm a total newbie and I want to dunk on bads and be an awesome space badass" and like half a dozen people will convo you up and offer to make you a part of their particular kind of space outfit. The actual barriers are fear, ignorance and unwillingness to engage with other players. Not SP or ISK. Players become more powerful by understanding the game and engaging with it in meaningful ways, not by getting more of a certain kind of points.
Vivias Xelnoa Council of Economic Advisors Bitter Vets n Noobs 0	Posted - 2015.12.21 02:45:47 - [28] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: EVE isn't a game where the having of the biggest thing is important. This is not a conventional Themepark MMO where the gear rating of your character or your character's level is a barrier to content. Essentially all of the types of content in the game are available almost immediately to anyone with the will to become involved in that content. You can literally go into the recruitment channel and type in "I'm a total newbie and I want to dunk on bads and be an awesome space badass" and like half a dozen people will convo you up and offer to make you a part of their particular kind of space outfit. The actual barriers are fear, ignorance and unwillingness to engage with other players. Not SP or ISK. Players become more powerful by understanding the game and engaging with it in meaningful ways, not by getting more of a certain kind of points. If this is true why do so many corps have huge SP requirements? To my this seems to illustrate the fact these points are very important because if it was simply knowledge they could teach that.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2816	Posted - 2015.12.21 02:51:00 - [29] - Quote Vivias Xelnoa wrote: If this is true why do so many corps have huge SP requirements? To my this seems to illustrate the fact these points are very important because if it was simply knowledge they could teach that. 1. Most corps don't. 2. Those corps are often lead by ignorant people, and in the few exceptions they aren't, are very specifically an elite group (Rooks and Kings I think of here as a group which I understand had SP requirements at one stage). 3. Most corps don't, again. Join one that doesn't if you don't have the SP.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 26579	Posted - 2015.12.21 02:51:46 - [30] - Quote Vivias Xelnoa wrote: If this is true why do so many corps have huge SP requirements? Because it correlates with time and they are too lazy or incompetent to teach new players how to play. They want you to come in with a year worth of game experience and some ability to ~~fill the corp's coffers~~ support yourself financially. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.3 - Vanguard Edition.



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