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Liona Maane	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:45:00 - [1] Why is the learning curve for EVE so steep - the tutorial is sooooo long and I never thought that I would get to play... the tutorials just keept on going!? I wonder why CCP dosnet make it easier to get in to the game?
Raste Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:48:00 - [2] Originally by: Liona Maane Why is the learning curve for EVE so steep - the tutorial is sooooo long and I never thought that I would get to play... the tutorials just keept on going!? I wonder why CCP dosnet make it easier to get in to the game? Harder to get into but holds you longer. Theres a certain tension between immediate accessibility and complexity, CCP probably steers more towards complexity than any mass-market game could fathom. Its a good thing. ===This is a sig=== "no matter where you are or what you're doing, you know that down in the southeast, LV and RA are trying to stab each other in the face." -- Cadiz ==============

Deckard Bishop Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:53:00 - [3] the best things come to those who wait! forum rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website!

Dame Schaifa	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:56:00 - [4] Edited by: Dame Schaifa on 17/01/2007 20:53:29 EVE is not a game to be mastered in an afternoon, a week, a month, or even in several months. But then, it IS a game where you are constantly discovering new things, how to do something better, faster, whatever. It is a game that will make you think about what you want to do, and then devise a plan to do it. EVE is a gmae that lets you play your way, not the way the developer says you must play. Sure, there is a lot to learn and it will take time to learn it. But with the effort you put into EVE, there is great reward as well. edit: spelling
Liona Maane	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:56:00 - [5] Originally by: Raste Harder to get into but holds you longer. Theres a certain tension between immediate accessibility and complexity, CCP probably steers more towards complexity than any mass-market game could fathom. Its a good thing. But what could happen (of bad things) if it was easier to get in to the game? Why not have a game that is easier to learn (than EVE is now) and then also would hold you for long?
Dame Schaifa	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:59:00 - [6] Originally by: Liona Maane Originally by: Raste Harder to get into but holds you longer. Theres a certain tension between immediate accessibility and complexity, CCP probably steers more towards complexity than any mass-market game could fathom. Its a good thing. But what could happen (of bad things) if it was easier to get in to the game? Why not have a game that is easier to learn (than EVE is now) and then also would hold you for long? Not sure, but maybe the reason is that there are already lots of games like that. EVE just isn't one of them.
Liona Maane	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:12:00 - [7] Originally by: Dame Schaifa Originally by: Liona Maane Originally by: Raste Harder to get into but holds you longer. Theres a certain tension between immediate accessibility and complexity, CCP probably steers more towards complexity than any mass-market game could fathom. Its a good thing. But what could happen (of bad things) if it was easier to get in to the game? Why not have a game that is easier to learn (than EVE is now) and then also would hold you for long? Not sure, but maybe the reason is that there are already lots of games like that. EVE just isn't one of them. So EVE is a game for people with a lot of time and patience? I just find it a bid sad because EVE seems (havent played so long) like such a nice and beautiful game but I know some people that just never get in to it, just scratching the surface because it took to long to in to it? But maybe it is just the point, that the people who gets there is the ones that belongs there!? Wonder if it is intended by the developers?
Dame Schaifa	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:18:00 - [8] In EVE, patience is a definite benefit to the player, but time in large amounts is not needed. For example, I am never able to devote more than 2 hours per day to games, and often I am limited to 1 hour, but I am enjoying my time in EVE just fine. And yes, I feel certain that the developers knew just what they were doing when they created EVE.
Synapse Archae Amarr Solarflare Heavy Industries Pure.	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:18:00 - [9] In my opinion part of what makes eve awsome is the absence of those immature, impatient "d3wds" who infest so many other MMOs in the extreme. I think the learning curve of eve has a lot to do with keeping them out, and I'm quite happy about that. It' O.K. to make a game that isn't for everyone. I've heard the devs say that eve isnt for everyone and I hope they stick with that mentality. - - - These elite slaves are exceptionally well suited for physical labor.
Strel Samodelkin Caldari	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:26:00 - [10] The learning curve can indeed be steep. I'd love to say what has already been replied many times, it seems, but I'll attempt to assist you with your learning curve with a few pieces of advice: 1. Join the channel: "Eve University" A channel dedicated to assisting new players, run by a non profit corp known as "Eve University" 2. Join the channel: "Help" Not as useful as the above channel, but you can OCCASIONALLY get answers from a few key people in there. 3. Use your NPC Corp Channel The initial corporation you're in does have some veterans who are more than happy to answer your questions. 4. Use the "New Citizens Q&A" Forum on Eve-Online.com Another useful resource

Liona Maane	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:33:00 - [11] Originally by: Synapse Archae In my opinion part of what makes eve awsome is the absence of those immature, impatient "d3wds" who infest so many other MMOs in the extreme. I think the learning curve of eve has a lot to do with keeping them out, and I'm quite happy about that. It' O.K. to make a game that isn't for everyone. I've heard the devs say that eve isnt for everyone and I hope they stick with that mentality. I agree that it is good to make a game that isn't for everyone! It is nice that there is a difference! I just wonder what would happen if the dev decided to change the tutorials and make it easier. I dont necessarily think it would mean that there would be a lot of "d3wds"(dont know what it is but it sounds not nice ;) Dont the game in itself hold a special gameplay that sort the players?
Captain Stormer	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:33:00 - [12] I have been playing eve for 1 and half years over 2 chars (stupid trial account alt :P ), sometimes I still feel im on the tutorial :)
Liona Maane	Posted - 2007.01.17 22:11:00 - [13] Well, EVE is at the moment a game that isnt for everyone. But what will happen if the dev decides to make the learing curve less steep? I read somewere that CCP play to get a lot more players, maybe not right now, but in the future. Changing the tutorial and makeing the game easier to acces could definitly be a way to get more players...
Tkdzzix Astral Wolves	Posted - 2007.01.17 22:15:00 - [14] Originally by: Liona Maane Why is the learning curve for EVE so steep - the tutorial is sooooo long and I never thought that I would get to play... the tutorials just keept on going!? I wonder why CCP dosnet make it easier to get in to the game? I am sorry, but the tutorial is really not that long!? And don't look me up and say 'but you are over a year old, what do you remember of the tutorial'... When kali popped out, I made a new character and went through the whole tutorial to see what has changed (not a whole lot tbh). I did this in one evening with no problems.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2007.01.17 22:20:00 - [15] If you feel like you've mastered EVE I dare say you may have to re-train Social Life lvl1. Ourselves Alone
Liona Maane	Posted - 2007.01.17 22:22:00 - [16] Originally by: Tkdzzix Originally by: Liona Maane Why is the learning curve for EVE so steep - the tutorial is sooooo long and I never thought that I would get to play... the tutorials just keept on going!? I wonder why CCP dosnet make it easier to get in to the game? I am sorry, but the tutorial is really not that long!? And don't look me up and say 'but you are over a year old, what do you remember of the tutorial'... When kali popped out, I made a new character and went through the whole tutorial to see what has changed (not a whole lot tbh). I did this in one evening with no problems. Well, I just wanted to get started faster (get out an fly) so I just found it strange that the tutorials were so long (well, I think a whole evening on a tutorial is long ;) And even after the tutorial I couldent remember 1/10 of what it was telling me... therefore it was kind of useless... And I would much rather prefer to get the info while playing. But maybe thats just me? And Im also not a very experienced online player.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2007.01.17 22:25:00 - [17] Just do as I did, quit the tutorial and ask around whenever you need to know something. Get into a good corporation that takes care of the new meat. Ourselves Alone
Kharakan Amarr Morticus Impendium	Posted - 2007.01.17 22:26:00 - [18] Eve learning curve is more of a fairly steep cliff. But there's a sofa over the top. this signature space is claimed in the name of eris, haha I got to him first. neeneer
Malicia Skirj	Posted - 2007.01.17 22:29:00 - [19] Steep? I thought it was pretty simple compared to AO.
Liona Maane	Posted - 2007.01.17 22:35:00 - [20] So the way forward is in the help chats and the corporations! - but newbies (like me ;) dosnt know this - before its to late... Maybe they (CCP) should skip the turorials competley and make it a total player controlled thing!?

Liona Maane	Posted - 2007.01.17 22:38:00 - [21] Originally by: Malicia Skirj Steep? I thought it was pretty simple compared to AO. I havent tried AO, is it really worse than EVE? Have to try it then, maybe then afterwards I¦ll think EVE is a walk in the spacepark?
Alexi Borizkova Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2007.01.17 22:40:00 - [22] Originally by: Liona Maane So the way forward is in the help chats and the corporations! - but newbies (like me ;) dosnt know this - before its to late... Maybe they (CCP) should skip the turorials competley and make it a total player controlled thing!? It takes more than a few man hours to teach the game to a new player. I know this, because I have spent a lot of my time doing it. Fact is, that a new player that has done the tutorial saves about two hours of my time. I might still have to spend two hours with them, but that's certainly better for me than four. It might take three or four hours to run through the tutorial for the new player, but you're using your own time to do so. Really, without the tutorial we have an undue stress on the teachers and friendly people of eve, and if they make the game simpler to need less teaching, we all lose out on a complex conceptually challenging game. Really, this is the best the balance gets. And as someone who runs a new character through the tutorial every time they change it majorly, trust me: it is SO much better for you as a starting player now than it used to be, and that's no lie at all.
Liona Maane	Posted - 2007.01.17 23:12:00 - [23] Originally by: Alexi Borizkova Originally by: Liona Maane So the way forward is in the help chats and the corporations! - but newbies (like me ;) dosnt know this - before its to late... Maybe they (CCP) should skip the turorials competley and make it a total player controlled thing!? It takes more than a few man hours to teach the game to a new player. I know this, because I have spent a lot of my time doing it. Fact is, that a new player that has done the tutorial saves about two hours of my time. I might still have to spend two hours with them, but that's certainly better for me than four. It might take three or four hours to run through the tutorial for the new player, but you're using your own time to do so. Really, without the tutorial we have an undue stress on the teachers and friendly people of eve, and if they make the game simpler to need less teaching, we all lose out on a complex conceptually challenging game. Really, this is the best the balance gets. And as someone who runs a new character through the tutorial every time they change it majorly, trust me: it is SO much better for you as a starting player now than it used to be, and that's no lie at all. Yes, Im sure it is better to do the tutorial, you of cause learn something. But I still think they then could improve the tutorials; both for the sake of letting of the more experinced players when they are teaching afterwards, and also in getting more players in to EVE...
Malicia Skirj	Posted - 2007.01.17 23:13:00 - [24] Originally by: Liona Maane Originally by: Malicia Skirj Steep? I thought it was pretty simple compared to AO. I havent tried AO, is it really worse than EVE? Have to try it then, maybe then afterwards I¦ll think EVE is a walk in the spacepark? It's amazingly complex if you really want to master it. There are about 12 professions..and not only do you have to know your own very well (and anyone that says most professions just hit Q (attack button) and go AFK don't know their professions very well), you also have to know others. For example...you wanna be a doc...grand. You know you have to heal. You need nanobots to heal. They run out fast. When you're out, your team dies if they're not lucky enough to escape. Solutions? Have the keeper run a nanobot replenishing auro, get PNH and IOR from a nanotechnician, max psychic and train perks related to nanobot boosting. That's a very basic example. On top of that you'll want to know what nanoformulas offer the best protection...who can calm mobs, who can root them, who can charm them, who can boost your [insert skill] skill, etc. To do well you practically have to memorize everything about every character. The only reason I left is because they massively screwed nanotechnicians over (my main there was a level 206 NT) by capping range and giving nearly every other profession a way to break out of a root. Those were pretty much their only advantage since they die so easily... Imagine a ship in Eve with 600 shields/armor/structure...with no capability of using extenders or shield boosters, etc......but able to nail another ship for 1K a pop at 500KM from the start, with another ship tackling. Now imagine that same ship with range limited to everyone's max range (let's say it's capped at 100KM for the hell of it), and when they're ganged with another ship IT isn't allowed to tackle, either. But it still only has 600 points and no ability to 'heal'. So yes...stupidly complex...wacky good fun...AND it's set in the future..nearly 50,000 years. But the one profession I wanted most of all was messed up about 3 years into it. And now I'm here. :)
Alexi Borizkova Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2007.01.17 23:14:00 - [25] Well, this IS the improvement... but you are right, there is always room for more. What specifically would you change? And don't cop out and say "make it quicker and easier" as a new player that went through it all, I think you could make more than a few specific suggestions.
Malcanis	Posted - 2007.01.17 23:29:00 - [26] Originally by: Liona Maane Why is the learning curve for EVE so steep - the tutorial is sooooo long and I never thought that I would get to play... the tutorials just keept on going!? I wonder why CCP dosnet make it easier to get in to the game? There ain't no law says you have to finish the tutorial. I think I jacked it in about step 10 or so. Get in a frigate, add belts to your overview and begin the pewpew. You'll learn the rest as you go along. One way or another...
Liona Maane	Posted - 2007.01.17 23:30:00 - [27] Originally by: Alexi Borizkova Well, this IS the improvement... but you are right, there is always room for more. What specifically would you change? And don't cop out and say "make it quicker and easier" as a new player that went through it all, I think you could make more than a few specific suggestions. Hehe got me there ;) No I dont think it have to be quicker and easier. It just that I wanted to get to "play a little" sooner. So that there might be some missions earlier in the tutorial were you would get to try the new thing that you were just told, then I might have rembered them better? I think there are to many informaions in one big pile. And maybe also some more explanatios to why you have to choose the differnet skills etc When you dont know the game you dont know what differens your chooises make. So maybe you couls choose this later instead? This was just a som examles, but I dont know if it would ruin the game expirence and I know that there is a lot of saying that it is good that the learing curve is so steep, because it sort out the imature players - I dont necesserly agree. I think the game spirit/core of the game in itself will sort out the players.
Malcanis	Posted - 2007.01.17 23:31:00 - [28] Originally by: Liona Maane Originally by: Dame Schaifa Originally by: Liona Maane Originally by: Raste Harder to get into but holds you longer. Theres a certain tension between immediate accessibility and complexity, CCP probably steers more towards complexity than any mass-market game could fathom. Its a good thing. But what could happen (of bad things) if it was easier to get in to the game? Why not have a game that is easier to learn (than EVE is now) and then also would hold you for long? Not sure, but maybe the reason is that there are already lots of games like that. EVE just isn't one of them. So EVE is a game for people with a lot of time and patience? I just find it a bid sad because EVE seems (havent played so long) like such a nice and beautiful game but I know some people that just never get in to it, just scratching the surface because it took to long to in to it? But maybe it is just the point, that the people who gets there is the ones that belongs there!? Wonder if it is intended by the developers? Welcome to EVE!
Liona Maane	Posted - 2007.01.17 23:42:00 - [29] Originally by: Malicia Skirj Originally by: Liona Maane Originally by: Malicia Skirj Steep? I thought it was pretty simple compared to AO. I havent tried AO, is it really worse than EVE? Have to try it then, maybe then afterwards I¦ll think EVE is a walk in the spacepark? It's amazingly complex if you really want to master it. There are about 12 professions..and not only do you have to know your own very well (and anyone that says most professions just hit Q (attack button) and go AFK don't know their professions very well), you also have to know others. For example...you wanna be a doc...grand. You know you have to heal. You need nanobots to heal. They run out fast. When you're out, your team dies if they're not lucky enough to escape. Solutions? Have the keeper run a nanobot replenishing auro, get PNH and IOR from a nanotechnician, max psychic and train perks related to nanobot boosting. That's a very basic example. On top of that you'll want to know what nanoformulas offer the best protection...who can calm mobs, who can root them, who can charm them, who can boost your [insert skill] skill, etc. To do well you practically have to memorize everything about every character. The only reason I left is because they massively screwed nanotechnicians over (my main there was a level 206 NT) by capping range and giving nearly every other profession a way to break out of a root. Those were pretty much their only advantage since they die so easily... Imagine a ship in Eve with 600 shields/armor/structure...with no capability of using extenders or shield boosters, etc......but able to nail another ship for 1K a pop at 500KM from the start, with another ship tackling. Now imagine that same ship with range limited to everyone's max range (let's say it's capped at 100KM for the hell of it), and when they're ganged with another ship IT isn't allowed to tackle, either. But it still only has 600 points and no ability to 'heal'. So yes...stupidly complex...wacky good fun...AND it's set in the future..nearly 50,000 years. But the one profession I wanted most of all was messed up about 3 years into it. And now I'm here. :) yes this really sound very compex! :) But was it fun because it was complex or was it other things - could it have been less complex? It seems fx that people dont think EVE could be less complex, they like it the way it is, hardcore ;) and I kind of agree, its nice and its a real challange with lots of possibilits for those who likes this type of game.
Seroquel	Posted - 2007.01.18 01:09:00 - [30] Edited by: Seroquel on 18/01/2007 01:08:49 Don't give the tutorial any ideas. The tutorial lady is already pretty annoying. "Hi, would you like to take the tutorial?" no "How about now? Take the tutorial." no go away Tutorial button starts flashing and that creepy marilyn manson looking lady pops out of the screen and eats you. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.



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