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Soporo	Posted - 2007.01.18 02:56:00 - [31] They would be doing all new players a grave disservice by shortening the Tutorial. Hell, it barely covers things as it is. Yes it is long. It helps weed out those with the attention span of goldfish. The rest...it's a pain alright, but worth it.
Mazzarins Demise	Posted - 2007.01.18 04:29:00 - [32] Originally by: Malicia Skirj Originally by: Liona Maane Originally by: Malicia Skirj Steep? I thought it was pretty simple compared to AO. I havent tried AO, is it really worse than EVE? Have to try it then, maybe then afterwards I¦ll think EVE is a walk in the spacepark? It's amazingly complex if you really want to master it. There are about 12 professions..and not only do you have to know your own very well (and anyone that says most professions just hit Q (attack button) and go AFK don't know their professions very well), you also have to know others. For example...you wanna be a doc...grand. You know you have to heal. You need nanobots to heal. They run out fast. When you're out, your team dies if they're not lucky enough to escape. Solutions? Have the keeper run a nanobot replenishing auro, get PNH and IOR from a nanotechnician, max psychic and train perks related to nanobot boosting. That's a very basic example. On top of that you'll want to know what nanoformulas offer the best protection...who can calm mobs, who can root them, who can charm them, who can boost your [insert skill] skill, etc. To do well you practically have to memorize everything about every character. The only reason I left is because they massively screwed nanotechnicians over (my main there was a level 206 NT) by capping range and giving nearly every other profession a way to break out of a root. Those were pretty much their only advantage since they die so easily... Imagine a ship in Eve with 600 shields/armor/structure...with no capability of using extenders or shield boosters, etc......but able to nail another ship for 1K a pop at 500KM from the start, with another ship tackling. Now imagine that same ship with range limited to everyone's max range (let's say it's capped at 100KM for the hell of it), and when they're ganged with another ship IT isn't allowed to tackle, either. But it still only has 600 points and no ability to 'heal'. So yes...stupidly complex...wacky good fun...AND it's set in the future..nearly 50,000 years. But the one profession I wanted most of all was messed up about 3 years into it. And now I'm here. :) Shush and give me my Mochams!!!! Oh wait....I'm the Meta-Physicist!!!
hotgirl933	Posted - 2007.01.18 04:39:00 - [33] the game is deep the tutorial covers a lot u could always go play a simple game like wow ofc
SonOTassadar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.01.18 05:33:00 - [34] Originally by: hotgirl933 the game is deep the tutorial covers a lot u could always go play a simple game like wow ofc We were hoping people like you would be deterred by the tutorial. ----- Griffin -- 100,000 ISK ECM - Multispectral Jammer Is -- 20,000 ISK Standar Missile Launcher Is -- 10,000 ISK War target sobbing over losing a fight in his T2 fitted Battleship -- priceless
Cammulos Magnetar Ltd	Posted - 2007.01.18 06:16:00 - [35] The tutorial is a real must. When I made my first char back in November 04' I went maybe 5min or so into the game, got bored and decided to just go it alone. Used the map, looked for the absolute farthest point I could see on the map (North most point if the map is flat), locked onto it as my destination, and went there looking for some adventure.. Got there having been chased by a good 5 or 6 different corps (Little did I know we 0.0 types are very suspicious of 'nubs' flying around in deep 0.0 and only being a few hours old). Anyways, having got there and noticing my ships must be damaged as it was venting atmosphere, I then remembered that tutorial I decided to skip over. Deleted that char and started again.. Trust me, you don't want to skip the tutorial. If you do... its probably gonna be your ass.
Benglada Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.18 06:35:00 - [36] when i started there was no tutorial.... "heres a ship, heres a gun, GL!" --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends. Sig nerfz0r - maximum allowed siz0r is 24000 bytz0r. - Devil ([email protected]) Sig By Ortos
gfldex Gallente Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.01.18 06:59:00 - [37] Originally by: Liona Maane Wonder if it is intended by the developers? They just make the game they want to play the most and made a lot friends that way.
AvatarADV	Posted - 2007.01.18 07:50:00 - [38] Eve is chock full of complicated stuff that you're not going to get right off the bat. There's just no getting around that. Doing the tutorial gives you, at the least, a basis for how to operate. You know how to move your ship, speed it up, slow it down, turn on the guns, how to mine something. You know what the important buttons on the left and right side of the docking menu do. You can buy stuff. You can find stuff that you bought. You know the difference between your ship's cargo and the station's items hangar. You can make a bookmark and go to it. You can go through a warp gate. You've been in your first deadspace. You can train a skill. The real help is that knowing all of these things makes answering other, more specific questions a lot easier. "How do I find this skill?" is difficult if you don't know where the market screen is. Basically, if someone asks something on the rookie help channel that's contained in the tutorial, I generally direct them back to the tutorial. There's so much in it that you really DO need to know, if not instantly, then at least soon. Rather than spend my time talking someone through it, the game will talk you through it automatically, and I can spend time talking to people who wanna know what ships they should be thinking about buying, how salvaging works, how corp standing works, yadda yadda. Come to think of it, there ought to be a newbie guide. There's several good resources in the forums, but most of them assume that the user has figured out what they should be doing. For example, the mining guide is great -if you know you want to mine-. Maybe I ought to write an intro guide - kind of a "these are the things there are to do in EVE, so if you're sitting outside the station with a stunned bunny look on your face, check it out and get organized mentally" thing.
Forando Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.01.18 09:22:00 - [39] Edited by: Forando on 18/01/2007 09:22:59 Edited by: Forando on 18/01/2007 09:19:35 Steep learning curve? Well, it all depends on the amount of time people are willing to put into it. If you have an hour, you'll be hard stressed to learn all there is to know. The skill system in EVE kinda hints that you'll have time on your side in this game - You can't really rush into EVE. It's a very technical and complex game, if you want it to be. But there is simply no reason to rush into it. Learn at your own pace. As for resources, the tutorial is long winding and covers a lot of ground, but worth it. If you're left with questions or need clarifications after that, simply ask - There should be around 15k-25k players online most of the time (It is a MMO after all!) There's even a 'Help' channel you can join, if 'local' and the corp channel isn't enough. Just make sure you have run through the tutorial before asking. It seems CCP has been paying a bit of attention to the 'Tutorial'-section of EVE lately though. There's new tutorials on more topics than when I started, so it could be they are looking into it already? But generally, all you will ever need to know about EVE can be learned from asking players or by peeking forums. I highly recommend new players to take a look at the following links: http://eve.grismar.net/ http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/ http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=437508 Enjoy, and fly safe!
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express	Posted - 2007.01.18 09:41:00 - [40] Originally by: Liona Maane Why is the learning curve for EVE so steep - the tutorial is sooooo long and I never thought that I would get to play... the tutorials just keept on going!? I wonder why CCP dosnet make it easier to get in to the game? The tutorials teach you only the basics :), there is more yet for you to learn. There once was in a galaxy far far way another game that was somewhat complex to get into. It was open ended game based upon a major movie franchise. It had a richness and inderdependency between players that has yet to be seen again. The devs of that game listened to a few that said the game was to hard. They decided against the advice of their existing playerbase to simplify the game to get what they perceived where greener pastures on the other side of the fence. They rolled it out with 2 weeks notice to the vetarans. They didn't offer any refunds for time already paid though the changes were so drastic that a good many could not play the game anymore. Within 3 months they lost 75 % of their veterans. The veterans left where cold and jaded. They discouraged new people from staying. Today that game still is online but it has never recovered. Its population is low, especially low for one based on one of the most popular science fiction intellectual properties ever founded thus far. The easy path is not the most rewarding one. The best rewards are found on the paths least travelled. Galactic Express Recruitment Post

Sol Halcon Minmatar The Exile Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.18 10:32:00 - [41] Originally by: Mecinia Lua Originally by: Liona Maane Why is the learning curve for EVE so steep - the tutorial is sooooo long and I never thought that I would get to play... the tutorials just keept on going!? I wonder why CCP dosnet make it easier to get in to the game? The tutorials teach you only the basics :), there is more yet for you to learn. There once was in a galaxy far far way another game that was somewhat complex to get into. It was open ended game based upon a major movie franchise. It had a richness and inderdependency between players that has yet to be seen again. The devs of that game listened to a few that said the game was to hard. They decided against the advice of their existing playerbase to simplify the game to get what they perceived where greener pastures on the other side of the fence. They rolled it out with 2 weeks notice to the vetarans. They didn't offer any refunds for time already paid though the changes were so drastic that a good many could not play the game anymore. Within 3 months they lost 75 % of their veterans. The veterans left where cold and jaded. They discouraged new people from staying. Today that game still is online but it has never recovered. Its population is low, especially low for one based on one of the most popular science fiction intellectual properties ever founded thus far. The easy path is not the most rewarding one. The best rewards are found on the paths least travelled. OOH you are soooo right. They turned our game into a 25 cent arcade shooter, and it's only gotten worse. Your post truely tugged at my heart strings. That is the past though and I, like many others moved on. You're also right about the tutorial being just the begining. When I finished it I said "What?? That's it?" I only had about a hundred more questions is all. All I would ever ask is that they don't "NGE" us in favor of the console kiddy crowd. Cheers!
Moses Mortensen Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.01.18 11:25:00 - [42] Originally by: Mecinia Lua The tutorials teach you only the basics :), there is more yet for you to learn. There once was in a galaxy far far way another game that was somewhat complex to get into. It was open ended game based upon a major movie franchise. It had a richness and inderdependency between players that has yet to be seen again. The devs of that game listened to a few that said the game was to hard. They decided against the advice of their existing playerbase to simplify the game to get what they perceived where greener pastures on the other side of the fence. They rolled it out with 2 weeks notice to the vetarans. They didn't offer any refunds for time already paid though the changes were so drastic that a good many could not play the game anymore. Within 3 months they lost 75 % of their veterans. The veterans left where cold and jaded. They discouraged new people from staying. Today that game still is online but it has never recovered. Its population is low, especially low for one based on one of the most popular science fiction intellectual properties ever founded thus far. The easy path is not the most rewarding one. The best rewards are found on the paths least travelled. Im curious, what game is it you are refering to?
Feng Schui Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.01.18 11:40:00 - [43] SWG i presume (star wars galaxies). when SOE (i beleive?) got ahold of the game, they neutered it.
Valan	Posted - 2007.01.18 11:47:00 - [44] Originally by: Benglada when i started there was no tutorial.... "heres a ship, heres a gun, GL!" lol I remember undocking after spending 5 minutes trying to find the button and saying 'now what'. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Liona Maane Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.18 16:51:00 - [45] It seems to me that the general opinion is that it's ok the leaning curve is so steep and that the tutorials are long and hard. I heard people saying that is a way to sort the players of the game. There is a fear of the game getting to easy, and thereby getting overflown - it is almost like a country that don't want foreigners... I wonder if it makes the veteran players feel better about themselves, that they are hard core? But I guess EVE is a lot about reputation and bragging rights! But since you are free of (game)choose, and people are not escaping a war (more likely trying to find one) I think the game in itself will attract the ones that like this kind of game, not everybody! I can't see the problem in making the tutorials easier and more appealing. You can always skip it if you want to feel hardcore...
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries	Posted - 2007.01.18 17:11:00 - [46] Originally by: Liona Maane Originally by: Raste Harder to get into but holds you longer. Theres a certain tension between immediate accessibility and complexity, CCP probably steers more towards complexity than any mass-market game could fathom. Its a good thing. But what could happen (of bad things) if it was easier to get in to the game? Why not have a game that is easier to learn (than EVE is now) and then also would hold you for long? I doubt it would hold me for as long if it was made easier, the tutorial was a lot longer when I started did the very basics of it then went and learned by doing. Infact i only completed the tutorial when it was changed so you could sell the implant you got at the end of it. ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Sol Flare Caldari The White Star Consortium Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.18 17:29:00 - [47] The learning curve is steep for the sheer fact of the mechanics that run this game. 2 months... 6 months... 1 year down the road you will be looking at things and learning something new that completely changes the game for you. Tell me what other MMO can do that? Especially when CCP gives players access to info on almost every usable module and ship. You might fit your ship one way to achieve one goal and need to compeletly change it to achieve another... Until you have played a while you will never understand the depth this game has. Plus the CCP nerfs & changes, those will keep you on the edge of your seat!
Valan	Posted - 2007.01.18 18:16:00 - [48] EVE was a lot less complex when we started a tutorial would've been helpful all the same. My brother has started playing and I've watched him through the tutorials, they're laborious. Although you can skip and jump into them at different points, so just do the bits that you need to. EVE isn't that complex just more complex than the other MMORPGs. Learning is a complex field and especially learning from computers. I know I did a dissertation on e-learning for my MSc. The current tutorial doesn't do a bad job just needs some tweaking. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Alexi Borizkova Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2007.01.18 18:19:00 - [49] Really, I think the best way to learn is to be personally taught by another player. It just goes so much faster. And you, as the teacher, get to vicariously experience all the wonder of seeing the game unfold for the first time. Best done in person, too. I'd suggest to anyone that thought the tutorial was long and clunky, to not subject your friends to it, and teach them in person.
Liona Maane Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.20 17:17:00 - [50] Then what would happen if the learning curve was even steeper, making the game more complex? Would we get fewer - but more devoted players??

Corbin Devereux Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.01.20 17:26:00 - [51] Cause when i started playing there was no tutorial and i ran around not knowing basic stuff for weeks?
Corbin Devereux Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.01.20 17:33:00 - [52] Originally by: Mazzarins Demise Originally by: Malicia Skirj Originally by: Liona Maane Originally by: Malicia Skirj Steep? I thought it was pretty simple compared to AO. I havent tried AO, is it really worse than EVE? Have to try it then, maybe then afterwards I¦ll think EVE is a walk in the spacepark? It's amazingly complex if you really want to master it. There are about 12 professions..and not only do you have to know your own very well (and anyone that says most professions just hit Q (attack button) and go AFK don't know their professions very well), you also have to know others. For example...you wanna be a doc...grand. You know you have to heal. You need nanobots to heal. They run out fast. When you're out, your team dies if they're not lucky enough to escape. Solutions? Have the keeper run a nanobot replenishing auro, get PNH and IOR from a nanotechnician, max psychic and train perks related to nanobot boosting. That's a very basic example. On top of that you'll want to know what nanoformulas offer the best protection...who can calm mobs, who can root them, who can charm them, who can boost your [insert skill] skill, etc. To do well you practically have to memorize everything about every character. The only reason I left is because they massively screwed nanotechnicians over (my main there was a level 206 NT) by capping range and giving nearly every other profession a way to break out of a root. Those were pretty much their only advantage since they die so easily... Imagine a ship in Eve with 600 shields/armor/structure...with no capability of using extenders or shield boosters, etc......but able to nail another ship for 1K a pop at 500KM from the start, with another ship tackling. Now imagine that same ship with range limited to everyone's max range (let's say it's capped at 100KM for the hell of it), and when they're ganged with another ship IT isn't allowed to tackle, either. But it still only has 600 points and no ability to 'heal'. So yes...stupidly complex...wacky good fun...AND it's set in the future..nearly 50,000 years. But the one profession I wanted most of all was messed up about 3 years into it. And now I'm here. :) Shush and give me my Mochams!!!! Oh wait....I'm the Meta-Physicist!!! If you ask me to build your twink some carbonium again i swear to god i'll shove my slayerdroid so far up your *** that he'll be able to pluck your nose hairs and no i'm not logging my damn alt just to give you a wrangle! Why did i have to pick the 3 classes everybody always bugs all the time?!
Ashurn Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.01.20 17:44:00 - [53] I myself, being quite a new player as well. (nearly 3 months) I went through the tutorial thrice. And even before stepping into the trial. I spent one month browsing the forums on topics that might interest me or educate me on what to expect. Even now, I'm still clueless on some aspects of the game. But seriously, EVE isn't that complex. The tutorial is a must since it teaches a whole lot of basics to the new player. I just have to say, when I am in the rookie's help channel. I can't help but get angry when I see a throng of newbie questions that anyone with a reasonable level of IQ that went through the tutorial would probably need not ask. Examples like, "How do I orbit the npc?" or "How do I lock the targets?". And even, "How do I dock?" I was stumped by the question really. How can someone not know how to dock if they went through the tutorial? Anyway, I do not think the tutorial is indepth enough nor is it too complex. If EVE gets any easier, I would probably go back to WoW.
Krulla Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.20 19:34:00 - [54] Originally by: Liona Maane It seems to me that the general opinion is that it's ok the leaning curve is so steep and that the tutorials are long and hard. I heard people saying that is a way to sort the players of the game. There is a fear of the game getting to easy, and thereby getting overflown - it is almost like a country that don't want foreigners... I wonder if it makes the veteran players feel better about themselves, that they are hard core? But I guess EVE is a lot about reputation and bragging rights! But since you are free of (game)choose, and people are not escaping a war (more likely trying to find one) I think the game in itself will attract the ones that like this kind of game, not everybody! I can't see the problem in making the tutorials easier and more appealing. You can always skip it if you want to feel hardcore... You seem to be missing the point of the tutorial. The tutorial is not some chore you must grind through to start playing, It's a tool to help you learn the basics of the game. If they shortened the tutorial, they would simply decrease it's usefulness. Besides, you are free to skip any part of the tutorial you like. Sigs are for noobs.
Stitcher Caldari J.I.T. Enterprises Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.20 19:38:00 - [55] Edited by: Stitcher on 20/01/2007 19:35:13 one word: tutorial It turns the learning curve into a short ladder, then a gentle uphill walk with a lovely view. +++ FLA - The hardest thing in EVE is to be the good guys.
Ctair Pilru Nubs. Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.20 19:52:00 - [56] I don't know how it was for everyone else, but when I first picked up Eve and started the tutorial I was psyched out! I actually had fun going through the tutorial... Consequently, I've played Eve for over a year now with no thoughts of quitting. Often when I try to get RL friends into Eve I can tell if they're going to stick with the game depending on how interested they are in the tutorial. In my case, I saw how complex the game was and knew that if I took the time to learn it, it would be loads of fun. You just have to realize the potential, and you won't mind the steep learning curve. ---
Jetah Haukes Caldari	Posted - 2007.01.20 20:30:00 - [57] As a very new player (less than a week), I would not be doing as well as I am now without the aid of the tutorial. I have made a few mil ISK and got a small fleet of frigates for different purposes (I am sure this isn't that impressive but I enjoyed it!). Anyone who doesn't complete the tutorial is, in my eyes, shooting themselves in the foot at the beginning. WoW free since 12/1/07! Thank you Eve Online!
Zhecao Vai	Posted - 2007.01.20 20:35:00 - [58] I really don't understand the complaints. The tutorial is a few hours at very most; if that's too long, maybe you should reconsider your choice of hobby, because a few hours is not meant to be an insurmountable timespan in MMOs. Presuming that you do the tutorial, join the help channel, and read the forums and player guide, the game is pretty self-explanatory and easy to pick up. All of those things would be normal for learning any game, and EVE is no easier and not really any harder either.
Cray Malloc	Posted - 2007.01.20 21:46:00 - [59] The tutorial may be long and the learning curve to mastering a lot of the game is indeed steep, but I think of it as a trade-off. Eve has a deep design that facilitates a player-driven, vibrant world. If you don't have the time or inclination to master the game in an evening, you can train some skills and strap on some modules and focus on whatever interests you; there will always be another interesting facet of the game waiting when you want to explore your options. I have played off and on for 8 months, and just last night I found a new layer of complexity to mining, now that's exciting :P
Shao Daar United Alliance Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.01.20 22:14:00 - [60] Instead of the tutorial, a PROPER documentation might be in order... a PDF you can download, with all the info one needs, on both technical aspects of EVE (install, uninstall, troubleshooting), as well as game instructions (from basice, flying, to items, trade, ammo, contracts, missions, training, difficulty, and so on, and so on). It should even have a list of some basic skills (descriptions, usage), items (again, descriptions, usage) and should be updated if a patch changes something. It doesn't have to be short... it's a PDF, one can print it and read it sitting on the can for all I care. But the tutorial isn't doing what it's supposed to. Hell, in a game like EVE, I don't think any 'tutorial' could do that.



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