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Legitimate play or greifing ?

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Samuel Freedom	Posted - 2007.01.18 22:49:00 - [1] I mining in in a high sec system with my friend, when someone comes along <insert name> (am I allowed to name them ?). And steals some ore, so I think lol ok w/e. Then he says do you want it back so ofc I said no, so he carrys on stealing the ore putting it into another can. so I am wondering where his haulers is if its him or his mate or w/e. Then he blows up the ore ? At first I said what are you doing and he said I was a macro miner(lol, sad excuse). So after me proving that i wasn't a macro miner, was he just greifing or is this ok pratice. I just thought since he blew up the ore for no gain it might be greifing but he said he does it alot.
Nash Leigth Children of Azathoth Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2007.01.18 22:55:00 - [2] As I understood from your post, he thought that you were a macro-miner. In this case, the fact that he blew up the ore could be seen as him trying to discourage macro-mining in general by taking away your ore, you being the suspected macro-miner here - not as attempt to cause grief to you in particular. Even if he asks for a ransom and then blows up the can if you don't pay, this can be interpreted as him encouraging you to pay up next time rather than trying to grief you by blowing up your ore.
Sm0kE	Posted - 2007.01.18 22:56:00 - [3] Sounds like "greifing" to me. He was not profiting off stealing your ore (except maybe a quick laugh). Who knows, take it up with the devs cause I don't really get it. You can steal ore, but you can't steal ore and then do with it what you want. What, I can't mine for an hour and decide to blow up my can because it doesn't benefit me in anyway? ------------------------------------------------
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2007.01.18 22:59:00 - [4] Originally by: Nash Leigth As I understood from your post, he thought that you were a macro-miner. In this case, the fact that he blew up the ore could be seen as him trying to discourage macro-mining in general by taking away your ore, you being the suspected macro-miner here - not as attempt to cause grief to you in particular. Even if he asks for a ransom and then blows up the can if you don't pay, this can be interpreted as him encouraging you to pay up next time rather than trying to grief you by blowing up your ore. Ummm ya, that's complete bull******. Just because someone thinks someone else is a macro miner doesn't mean jack diddly. CCP can not check people's intentions, they can only listen and judge on the actions. Becuase the thief took the ore and then blew it up, it should be considered griefing yes. If he ransoms and you decline and then he blows it up, it should not be griefing because he had a purpose and a goal of making isk off of you. ~~~~~~~~~ Caldari. It's so easy a Minmatar could do it.
Menod Penter Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.18 22:59:00 - [5] Edited by: Menod Penter on 18/01/2007 22:56:20 No Griefing... Because you have the option to 'secure' your belongings. 1) Don't jet can mine. 2) Mine to your cargohold. 3) Mine to a secure container. It's easy to prevent theft..... Have a Nice Day :) Menod Penter - Mayor of Rens
Nero Scuro Caldari Murder of Crows E N I G M A	Posted - 2007.01.18 23:00:00 - [6] There is no such thing as griefing in EVE. If he blew up your ore he did it for a reason - because it was funny. EVE may be a game, but it isn't trying to feel like one. If someone is an ******* in real life you don't get god going 'omg that's griefing, he's totally banned!', so it won't happen in EVE either. Just deal with it, get revenge or whatever. ___ The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky...
xHalcyonx Amarr EmpiresMod	Posted - 2007.01.18 23:02:00 - [7] Originally by: Menod Penter Edited by: Menod Penter on 18/01/2007 22:56:20 No Griefing... Because you have the option to 'secure' your belongings. 1) Don't jet can mine. 2) Mine to your cargohold. 3) Mine to a secure container. It's easy to prevent theft..... 4) Kill his ship.
SSgt Sniper Gallente Zekarus Ltd.	Posted - 2007.01.18 23:02:00 - [8] Originally by: Menod Penter Edited by: Menod Penter on 18/01/2007 22:56:20 No Griefing... Because you have the option to 'secure' your belongings. 1) Don't jet can mine. 2) Mine to your cargohold. 3) Mine to a secure container. It's easy to prevent theft..... That's not theft that's griefing. If he'd stolen it he'd have made some money instead of spending money to blow it up. --------- Representing all the casual gamers happily living in Empire, that want NO PART of your 0.0 annoyances. However, I do not represent my corp. We vote first.
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.01.18 23:08:00 - [9] Few of the dedicated macro hunters make mistakes like that. I would suggest that he was either extremely green at macro hunting, or just plain lying for the fun he gets from it. Join channel macrointel sometime and tell us the name. If he is one of us, we'll have to bring him up to speed on practised recognition techniques / acceptable behaviour. If he's not one of us. Well, sorry you got jacked. Learning is fun. To a point. I would recommend all miners to at least practise being an ore thief for a week. When you come to realise and understand what you're up against, you'll make a much safer miner. You won't learn it all in a week of course, you might even get hooked! But it's all good in Eve. If your sig is the best thing you've posted, stop posting.
Samuel Freedom	Posted - 2007.01.18 23:16:00 - [10] Edited by: Samuel Freedom on 18/01/2007 23:13:16 Originally by: SSgt Sniper Originally by: Menod Penter Edited by: Menod Penter on 18/01/2007 22:56:20 No Griefing... Because you have the option to 'secure' your belongings. 1) Don't jet can mine. 2) Mine to your cargohold. 3) Mine to a secure container. It's easy to prevent theft..... That's not theft that's griefing. If he'd stolen it he'd have made some money instead of spending money to blow it up. Yea he had no way to haul it I think, so he blew it up. Im goin to petition it (this will be my first one) because there have been mixed views and I'd like to know where I stand in regards to this. How do i make a petition and what do i list it as ? EDIT How would I get incontact with his CEO instead as this may be better than pettioning.
Menod Penter Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.18 23:18:00 - [11] Originally by: SSgt Sniper That's not theft that's griefing. If he'd stolen it he'd have made some money instead of spending money to blow it up. Movement from one can to another without permission = Theft Where is it written that economic gain must come from theft? Again.... "Secure the ore or you'll be sore" (tm) Have a Nice Day :) Menod Penter - Mayor of Rens
Billy Sastard Amarr Zephyr Enterprises Inc. Astral Wolves	Posted - 2007.01.18 23:19:00 - [12] Unfortunately, I predict this petition will fall on deaf ears. A jettisoned can is technically discarded items, and as such, is treated so. You have been given the means to retaliate against someone who has stolen from your trash can, and it was your choice to decline to retaliate. What the thief did with the items after he was in posession of them is totally his choice, and since he had no use for the ore, and no way to move it, he chose to destroy it. My advice, make friends with a hauler and don't leave ore in the can. -=^=-
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.18 23:24:00 - [13] if he's not at war with you i'd personally say this is griefing and needs dealing with. Nothing more tho, and it doesnt mean the stealing is, only the stealing with intent to blow it up purely for no gain (hence the not at war part, if they want to blow up your ore they should declare war). Old blog Originally by: Vriezuh Naz: John is a realist
Menod Penter Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.18 23:26:00 - [14] Originally by: xHalcyonx Originally by: Menod Penter Edited by: Menod Penter on 18/01/2007 22:56:20 No Griefing... Because you have the option to 'secure' your belongings. 1) Don't jet can mine. 2) Mine to your cargohold. 3) Mine to a secure container. It's easy to prevent theft..... 4) Kill his ship. This a poor way to secure your ore. As the original resident thief of Rens I have seen way to many failed attempts to regain control of stolen ore after the fact. Most of the time it ends up with the 'victim' losing his/her ship and all their prized modules. Have a Nice Day :) Menod Penter - Mayor of Rens
Strel Samodelkin Caldari	Posted - 2007.01.18 23:33:00 - [15] There is nothing wrong with griefing. It should not be discouraged.
Samuel Freedom	Posted - 2007.01.18 23:35:00 - [16] Originally by: Rod Blaine if he's not at war with you i'd personally say this is griefing and needs dealing with. Nothing more tho, and it doesnt mean the stealing is, only the stealing with intent to blow it up purely for no gain (hence the not at war part, if they want to blow up your ore they should declare war). Yea Im not at war as we are in a NPC corp as im new (2-3 months old). I understand ore thieving is a more than viable occupation, its just the blowing it up, I would be ok if he would of flown of with it!!
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.01.18 23:48:00 - [17] I think its funny to be honest. Best Dressed Corp of 2006 and 2007! -ISD Marcus Thinks Eve who knew!?
Feng Schui Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.01.18 23:50:00 - [18] as much as it saddens me to say this, since i hate ore thiefs with a passion, your petition won't go anywhere, so in essence, you'll be wasting a GM's time with it. Few reasons: 1) Jett can mining comes with a risk 2) When he stole from you, you had "Kill rights" on him for 15 minutes 3) He abused no game mechanic in any way, shape, or form. Now, if he uses Locator agents, and keeps doing this, over, and over, and over, and over, it could be considered grief play, which is not allowed. However, as a one time occurance, its not really griefing (maybe he thought you would get a ship and PVP him after he blew up the can?) Best thing you can do, is either get a combat orienteered friend to Jett ore for ya, and hang around (10%-25% of ore, depending on type of ore you are mining might be a good "fee" for this) to deter thiefs, or become good at being a "combat miner"
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage	Posted - 2007.01.18 23:58:00 - [19] If that's griefing, I had a miner grief me today. I was sorting through a jettisoned can near this miner, pulling out the better ores -- can was full of a mix -- and putting in my transport, when his drones blew up the can. Oh, the oremanity!
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.01.19 00:01:00 - [20] Well, let's break it down... - You jettisoned your cargo surrendering control of it - Dude came along and took it trying to bait you into attacking him - CONCORD system flags him to you giving you 15(?) minutes of kill rights for him stealing from you. - You chose not to attack (which was probably wise) So the theft action is now taken care of. You were given the opportunity to seek retribution for his act of thievery but chose not to. Done deal. Now the ore is technically his. - He jettisons his ore - He leaves it in another can and asks if you want it back (again trying to get you to flag yourself) but again you chose not to agress. Good choice probably. - He shoots his ore since he didn't really want it in the first place, he wanted a fight which became apparent he wasn't going to get. The end result may seem like he was just griefing because it ended in him simply blowing up what was your ore. But it's pretty obvious (to me at least) that that wasn't what he wanted out of the situation. You just didn't oblige him. So if you run through other possible scenarios, maybe it would seem a little different... - What if he took your ore, waited for you to attack, then, once realizing you weren't going to, simply buggered off and sold it? Then it wouldn't seem like griefing? - What if he took your ore and gave it to some other newbie? - What if he took your ore, kept it for three days, then came back and blew it up in front of you? You'd probably think we was a pretty weird dork but you probably wouldn't think "griefing"... - What if he took your ore, jettisoned it, then left? Hmm.. that's even a little more evil because then you'd be left with that jet can spinning beside you while you wondered if it was safe to take it back. - What if he took your ore, then jettisoned a bunch of missiles then blew them up? - What if he stole your ore, then used it to make can art spelling out "I'm a little teacup" over the roid belt? Anyway, point is that it seems a little weird to me that, once you had surrendered the ore to him (you said, "so I think lol ok w/e"), you'd be offended by what he did with what was technically at that point, his stuff. Just another way of looking at it. ------------------- ... [OK] ... zOMG!
Billy Sastard Amarr Zephyr Enterprises Inc. Astral Wolves	Posted - 2007.01.19 00:11:00 - [21] Originally by: Marlenus If that's griefing, I had a miner grief me today. I was sorting through a jettisoned can near this miner, pulling out the better ores -- can was full of a mix -- and putting in my transport, when his drones blew up the can. Oh, the oremanity! I LOL'd... No really, my boss almost caught me reading the forums because of that!! -=^=-
Maria Ravenwind Beagle Corp	Posted - 2007.01.19 00:22:00 - [22] People really don't know about this trick, still? Yeah, its called baiting. He drops your ore in his can. He hopes that you take your ore back, and it flags you. Then he's able to kill your ship without getting the wrath of CONCORD. It's an old trick. You were wise to not take your ore back. He destroyed your ore because he didn't want you to have it, and he's a pirate, so he doesn't care about taking the ore.
Lysit Kaune Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.01.19 00:27:00 - [23] Originally by: Nero Scuro There is no such thing as griefing in EVE. Im calling BS, people do things because they can and just to annoy people, thats griefing. Pirates are, for the most part, the worst example of griefers, most I have encountered have either a) Opened fire with intent to destroy, even the lonelyest Noob ship, b) demanded unreasonable ransom (5 mil for a stabber? Pull the other one, its got bells on it, 2 mil and I might have paid), c) run away at any show of decent resistance (Oh look ctrl Q). Ore thiefs/destroyers are one step below those kinds of pirates. Quote: If someone is an ******* in real life you don't get god going 'omg that's griefing, he's totally banned!', so it won't happen in EVE either. In my opinion a God should not be involved in anycase, willful destruction of property is an offense, punishable by prison. Thats a poor excuse of someone who doesn't like a fair fight. Anyone trying this in real life would find themselves at the mercy of the law or finding there teeth flow through there digestive system for the next two weeks. As with anything you get idiots, there are decent ways to do things, even on sites the encourage pirating, ore thiefs are looked down on, its pirating for carebears. And for revenge I find those who find themselves on the worse end of a disgruntled miner who jumped into there combat ship (i.e. me) or called there buddy (me twice) find the griefer invokes the almighty right of ctrl Q.
Nash Leigth Children of Azathoth Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2007.01.19 00:28:00 - [24] Originally by: LUGAL MOP'N'GLO Ummm ya, that's complete bull******. Just because someone thinks someone else is a macro miner doesn't mean jack diddly. CCP can not check people's intentions, they can only listen and judge on the actions. Becuase the thief took the ore and then blew it up, it should be considered griefing yes. The definition of griefing is doing something in game for the purpose of upsetting another player, make his gaming experience be unpleasant for him. And that's exactly my point. CCP cannot check people's intentions, and neither can you. So how can you say that this player wanted to grief the miner, and not just try to discourage macro-mining by blowing up his ore? Unless you have psychic abilities and can read intentions printed out in big golden letters over people's foreheads, how can you be so certain he did this to upset the miner and not as a way to discourage macro-mining?
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.19 00:33:00 - [25] Originally by: Rod Blaine if he's not at war with you i'd personally say this is griefing and needs dealing with. Nothing more tho, and it doesnt mean the stealing is, only the stealing with intent to blow it up purely for no gain (hence the not at war part, if they want to blow up your ore they should declare war). Agree. He gained nothing, and blew the ore up only to annoy you. Grief play. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Dark Nemesis Gallente Children of Azathoth Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2007.01.19 00:44:00 - [26] Could also be a rival corp trying to do financial harm or even someone trying to run another player out of the system so they can have more ore for themselves. There is more than one possibility here than said player gaining nothing, and without full investigation of the facts and motives I certainly wouldn't judge the accused player. Having said that, the can was his when he blew it up. OP had his chance to secure his ore and opted for the high risk/high reward option of jetmining, and lost out. It happens.
The Gamemaster Empire Extreme Gladiatorial Extravaganza	Posted - 2007.01.19 00:45:00 - [27] Edited by: The Gamemaster on 19/01/2007 00:41:51 Originally by: Avon Originally by: Rod Blaine if he's not at war with you i'd personally say this is griefing and needs dealing with. Nothing more tho, and it doesnt mean the stealing is, only the stealing with intent to blow it up purely for no gain (hence the not at war part, if they want to blow up your ore they should declare war). Agree. He gained nothing, and blew the ore up only to annoy you. Grief play. Had the pirate gotten the miner to fight, he would have gained something. Had the miner payed a ransom, he would have gotten his ore back, and the pirate would have gained something. Not grief play. /Ki /Edit: This is of course my alt, I am Ki An.
Riho Red Wrath Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.01.19 00:46:00 - [28] Originally by: Samuel Freedom I mining in in a high sec system with my friend, when someone comes along <insert name> (am I allowed to name them ?). And steals some ore, so I think lol ok w/e. Then he says do you want it back so ofc I said no, so he carrys on stealing the ore putting it into another can. so I am wondering where his haulers is if its him or his mate or w/e. Then he blows up the ore ? At first I said what are you doing and he said I was a macro miner(lol, sad excuse). So after me proving that i wasn't a macro miner, was he just greifing or is this ok pratice. I just thought since he blew up the ore for no gain it might be greifing but he said he does it alot.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.01.19 00:53:00 - [29] Originally by: Avon Which ransom was this? The situation that the OP describes IS grief play. The situation you describe isn't. Thing is, they aren't the same, are they? The miner could have asked for a ransom. I know that's pushing it, but still. Also, it's obvious that this was a bait. He wanted the miner to engage. The miner was smart and didn't. He didn't take his ore back. Let me say that again: He had a chance to take his ore back, but didn't. That was probably the right move at the time, but the option was there. I.e. not grief play. /Ki
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.19 00:56:00 - [30] Originally by: Samuel Freedom I mining in in a high sec system with my friend, when someone comes along <insert name> (am I allowed to name them ?). And steals some ore, so I think lol ok w/e. Then he says do you want it back so ofc I said no, so he carrys on stealing the ore putting it into another can. so I am wondering where his haulers is if its him or his mate or w/e. Then he blows up the ore ? At first I said what are you doing and he said I was a macro miner(lol, sad excuse). So after me proving that i wasn't a macro miner, was he just greifing or is this ok pratice. I just thought since he blew up the ore for no gain it might be greifing but he said he does it alot. Griefers should be given a warning or something for destroying new players experience. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Dark Nemesis Gallente Children of Azathoth Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2007.01.19 00:57:00 - [31] Edited by: Dark Nemesis on 19/01/2007 00:54:20 They arent the same no, however the OP says: Quote: Then he says do you want it back so ofc I said no, so he carrys on stealing the ore putting it into another can. so I am wondering where his haulers is if its him or his mate or w/e. Firstly he says he doesn't want what was taken. Therefore without a hauler, you could argue the other pilot just would have no use for it. Secondly, by taking more, I think he was hoping the OP was going to ask him to stop, whereby he could then issue a ransom, which had he said "yes" in the first instance, or begged him to stop in the second, the response probably would have been a ransomp price. So after further thought, this isn't grief play at all, he was hoping for a ransom but was met by someone who just seemed to not bite on it, and then he was left with lots of ore that he could do nothing with. Failed ransom attempt/aggro bait. Not griefing.
Kalamurii Izanthor Soldiers Of Darkness Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.19 00:59:00 - [32] If your mining into a jet can, and someone comes along, jets their own can within 1500m of yours and then moves the ore from your can to his, do you still get the 15 minute timer to kill him?
Dark Nemesis Gallente Children of Azathoth Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2007.01.19 01:00:00 - [33] Originally by: Kalamurii Izanthor If your mining into a jet can, and someone comes along, jets their own can within 1500m of yours and then moves the ore from your can to his, do you still get the 15 minute timer to kill him? Yes. And regarding the warning for griefing new players, not only does the OP not say he's new, his character is over 2.5 months old. When do you stop being new?
Samuel Freedom	Posted - 2007.01.19 01:02:00 - [34] Originally by: Maria Ravenwind People really don't know about this trick, still? Yeah, its called baiting. He drops your ore in his can. He hopes that you take your ore back, and it flags you. Then he's able to kill your ship without getting the wrath of CONCORD. It's an old trick. You were wise to not take your ore back. He destroyed your ore because he didn't want you to have it, and he's a pirate, so he doesn't care about taking the ore. Well it was a very poor trick as it didn't work Im just wondering what kind of fight he was looking for, 2-3 month old in a mining set up . Just thought about it for a few minutes now, and it amuses me because he must have been a bit miffed after spending 10-15 minutes playing with the ore and not getting what he wanted(hence him blowing up the ore). So in the end I have come to this conclusion :~ 1) Mine into a jetcan then hauler takes (as even a whos not very gd can open a can and take tour ore ) 2) This is not something to pettion unless he makes it a habit. yes/no ? Anyway thx everyone for your differnt views on this I wonder if he will try something similar in a few months when I have trained to be PVPer and got some skills
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.01.19 01:08:00 - [35] Originally by: Samuel Freedom Well it was a very poor trick as it didn't work Im just wondering what kind of fight he was looking for, 2-3 month old in a mining set up . When it works it can net you a couple of Strip Miner IIs, and a few tractor beams and named cargo expanders. Can make a decent living doing that. He wasn't looking for 'a' fight. He was looking to kill you and take your stuff. He was a pirate. Originally by: Samuel Freedom Just thought about it for a few minutes now, and it amuses me because he must have been a bit miffed after spending 10-15 minutes playing with the ore and not getting what he wanted(hence him blowing up the ore). So in the end I have come to this conclusion :~ Wouldn't think he was that miffed, but I would guess he destroyed the ore out of frustration and/or to "teach" you to give in the next time. Originally by: Samuel Freedom 1) Mine into a jetcan then hauler takes (as even a whos not very gd can open a can and take tour ore ) This is a good way to protect yourself. Originally by: Samuel Freedom 2) This is not something to pettion unless he makes it a habit. yes/no ? I'd say that if he does this to you several times, and even after you have asked him to please stop and maybe even offered him some isk or a weekly allowance, then you can petition it. Originally by: Samuel Freedom Anyway thx everyone for your differnt views on this I wonder if he will try something similar in a few months when I have trained to be PVPer and got some skills You can always count on an ore-thief coming along if you jet-can mine. Just make sure your ready for it, and have some good tanking mods on your ship. After you blow him up, get out of the system, 'cause he'll be coming back in a bigger ship. /Ki
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.19 01:08:00 - [36] Originally by: Ki An The miner could have asked for a ransom. I know that's pushing it, but still. Also, it's obvious that this was a bait. He wanted the miner to engage. The miner was smart and didn't. He didn't take his ore back. Let me say that again: He had a chance to take his ore back, but didn't. That was probably the right move at the time, but the option was there. I.e. not grief play. /Ki You can't judge this based on what might have happened, only on what actually happened. In even very slightly different circumstances I wouldn't consider it griefing. However, in this particular situation I still believe it is. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.01.19 01:12:00 - [37] Originally by: Avon You can't judge this based on what might have happened, only on what actually happened. In even very slightly different circumstances I wouldn't consider it griefing. However, in this particular situation I still believe it is. Well, you can't really know what the pirate was hoping for. Is baiting miners griefplay? /Ki
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.19 01:18:00 - [38] Originally by: Ki An Is baiting miners griefplay? No. But blowing up a miner's ore isn't baiting, is it? It is nothing more than a way to "hurt" the miner for not falling for your trap. It gains no reward. It is an act only indulged in to annoy the other player, with no other reward. The difference is subtle, but it is important. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.01.19 01:23:00 - [39] Originally by: Avon No. But blowing up a miner's ore isn't baiting, is it? It is nothing more than a way to "hurt" the miner for not falling for your trap. It gains no reward. It is an act only indulged in to annoy the other player, with no other reward. The difference is subtle, but it is important. He didn't blow up the miner's ore. If he had, I would have agreed with you. He blew up his ore. He probably did this because he had no way of ferrying his ore to a station. He didn't give the miner his ore, because he didn't want to. It's his ore after all, and he can do what he wants with it. The miner had a chance to take his ore back. The miner knew this was a trap, and didn't take the ore back. The pirate had no further use for his ore, so he blew it up. /Ki
Nash Leigth Children of Azathoth Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2007.01.19 01:23:00 - [40] Originally by: Blue Pixie Originally by: Nash Leigth Originally by: LUGAL MOP'N'GLO Ummm ya, that's complete bull*****. Just because someone thinks someone else is a macro miner doesn't mean jack diddly. CCP can not check people's intentions, they can only listen and judge on the actions. Becuase the thief took the ore and then blew it up, it should be considered griefing yes. The definition of griefing is doing something in game for the purpose of upsetting another player, make his gaming experience be unpleasant for him. And that's exactly my point. CCP cannot check people's intentions, and neither can you. So how can you say that this player wanted to grief the miner, and not just try to discourage macro-mining by blowing up his ore? Unless you have psychic abilities and can read intentions printed out in big golden letters over people's foreheads, how can you be so certain he did this to upset the miner and not as a way to discourage macro-mining? Unless you have psychic abilities and can read intentions printed out in big golden letters over people's foreheads, how can you be so certain anyone is a "macro miner"? See how that works? Far be it for me to defend macro mining, but frankly, the ongoing witch hunt of overzealous macro mining "hunters" using that as an excuse to behave like a jackass is getting pretty freaking old. Yes and that is why I did not begin by posting "die macrominer die, you deserved this" in this thread. Yet some people are completely convinced that this was grief play and began posting just that. If you re-read my posts you will see that I am not saying that this surely wasn't griefing. All I am saying that it might not have been* griefing on his part. You can't be sure. It all depends on how much that dude was convinced that this miner was running a macro.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.19 01:28:00 - [41] Originally by: Nash Leigth If you re-read my posts you will see that I am not saying that this surely wasn't griefing. All I am saying that it might not have been griefing on his part. You can't be sure. It all depends on how much that dude was convinced that this miner was running a macro. It makes no difference to be honest, you aren't allowed to "grief" anyone, not even macro miners. Petition, yes. Grief, no. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Nash Leigth Children of Azathoth Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2007.01.19 01:34:00 - [42] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Nash Leigth If you re-read my posts you will see that I am not saying that this surely wasn't griefing. All I am saying that it might not have been griefing on his part. You can't be sure. It all depends on how much that dude was convinced that this miner was running a macro. It makes no difference to be honest, you aren't allowed to "grief" anyone, not even macro miners. Petition, yes. Grief, no. If that dude thought that this player was running a macro, then by blowing up his can he was perhaps hoping to cut down profits from macro-mining and thus discourage its practice. In this case, this is not grief play.
Dark Nemesis Gallente Children of Azathoth Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2007.01.19 01:35:00 - [43] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Ki An Is baiting miners griefplay? No. But blowing up a miner's ore isn't baiting, is it? It is nothing more than a way to "hurt" the miner for not falling for your trap. It gains no reward. It is an act only indulged in to annoy the other player, with no other reward. The difference is subtle, but it is important. The OP already told the other pilot he didnt want it back, it seems obvious that he also thought after some time that the OP wouldn't take it back and aggress, therefore could have assumed it would have just died in space anyway with the OP fearing any member of the corp could come in and kill him. Not a great deal of difference.
Blue Pixie	Posted - 2007.01.19 01:46:00 - [44] Originally by: Nash Leigth Edited by: Nash Leigth on 19/01/2007 01:25:21 Yes and that is why I did not begin by posting "die macrominer die, you deserved this" in this thread. Yet some people are completely convinced that this was grief play and began posting just that. If you re-read my posts you will see that I am not saying that this surely wasn't griefing. All I am saying that it might not have been griefing on his part. You can't be sure. It all depends on how much that dude was convinced that this miner was running a macro. Ki An also makes a valid point that it was his ore that he blew up. Having property in EVE does not work exactly the same way as having property in real life and so no parallels should be drawn here. If the can sitting before you is white - the stuff is yours. Period. So we should extend the benefit of doubt to everyone, even those who clearly define by their actions that they are either incapable or unwilling to do the same? I don't think so. Re-read the OP. Samuel Freedom not only established himself as a player, but notes that the other party recognized him as such prior to blowing up his ore. Was it "grief play"? That's a matter of opinion. But did it have anything to do with defending EVE from macro miners? I think not. Frankly, I believe the person Samuel Freedom described was nothing more than a coward and a bully, hiding behind the guise of "macro miner hunter" as an excuse to provoke a new addition to his kill board.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.01.19 02:05:00 - [45] Originally by: Blue Pixie [So we should extend the benefit of doubt to everyone, even those who clearly define by their actions that they are either incapable or unwilling to do the same? I don't think so. Re-read the OP. Samuel Freedom not only established himself as a player, but notes that the other party recognized him as such prior to blowing up his ore. Was it "grief play"? That's a matter of opinion. But did it have anything to do with defending EVE from macro miners? I think not. Frankly, I believe the person Samuel Freedom described was nothing more than a coward and a bully, hiding behind the guise of "macro miner hunter" as an excuse to provoke a new addition to his kill board. I agree that the pirate most likely was not looking for macros, and why he would say that I can only speculate. My guess is he was after isk and a kill mail. Nothing wrong with that, and it's definately not griefing. This time the miner was too smart for him, and he went away with nothing. Next time he'll find a miner who either attacks him or takes the ore back. /Ki
Nash Leigth Children of Azathoth Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2007.01.19 02:14:00 - [46] Originally by: Blue Pixie Originally by: Nash Leigth Edited by: Nash Leigth on 19/01/2007 01:25:21 Yes and that is why I did not begin by posting "die macrominer die, you deserved this" in this thread. Yet some people are completely convinced that this was grief play and began posting just that. If you re-read my posts you will see that I am not saying that this surely wasn't griefing. All I am saying that it might not have been griefing on his part. You can't be sure. It all depends on how much that dude was convinced that this miner was running a macro. Ki An also makes a valid point that it was his ore that he blew up. Having property in EVE does not work exactly the same way as having property in real life and so no parallels should be drawn here. If the can sitting before you is white - the stuff is yours. Period. So we should extend the benefit of doubt to everyone, even those who clearly define by their actions that they are either incapable or unwilling to do the same? I don't think so. Re-read the OP. Samuel Freedom not only established himself as a player, but notes that the other party recognized him as such prior to blowing up his ore. Was it "grief play"? That's a matter of opinion. But did it have anything to do with defending EVE from macro miners? I think not. Frankly, I believe the person Samuel Freedom described was nothing more than a coward and a bully, hiding behind the guise of "macro miner hunter" as an excuse to provoke a new addition to his kill board. What proof exactly did Samuel offer? Talking to him in local in English? That's not proof. And where did you get the notion that the dude who stole his ore recognized him as legitimate miner? Please quote the specific text from his posts where there is mention of sufficient proof and of event of recongnition, as I cannot find it. (In fact, note that Samuel was in NPC corp as many macro-miners are.) You can use whatever adjectives you want to describe this player's behavior. My point stands. You cannot be certain that this was grief play.
Nash Leigth Children of Azathoth Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2007.01.19 02:18:00 - [47] Originally by: Samuel Freedom Anyway thx everyone for your differnt views on this I wonder if he will try something similar in a few months when I have trained to be PVPer and got some skills hehehe, have fun
Stitcher Caldari J.I.T. Enterprises Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.19 02:27:00 - [48] it'd be so much easier if there was a hard and fast definition of "Griefing". Mine amounts to a kind of schoolyard bullying - doing something with no intent of profit, for the sole purpose of inconveniencing somebody else and extracting malicious humour from their inconvenience. To my eyes, he was most definitely griefing. If you responded to conversations and had a name like Samuel Freedom, then the probability is VERY strong that you are not a macro miner, and any macro hunter knows it - they usually have names like XKCDWC and don't respond to anything - bumping, hails, looting the can, anything. You did, and have a real name. that pretty much negates the possibility of your being a macro miner, so when the guy pulled that excuse on you, he was talking out of his wossname. My interpretation is that his sole motive was to either find an excuse to blow you up (by goading you into taking your ore back) or else to otherwise cause you in-game financial harm - in this case, detonating all your hard-won ore. That's griefing, to my mind. +++ FLA - The hardest thing in EVE is to be the good guys.
Blue Pixie	Posted - 2007.01.19 02:59:00 - [49] Originally by: Nash Leigth What proof exactly did Samuel offer? Talking to him in local in English? That's not proof. And where did you get the notion that the dude who stole his ore recognized him as legitimate miner? Please quote the specific text from his posts where there is mention of sufficient proof and of event of recongnition, as I cannot find it. (In fact, note that Samuel was in NPC corp as many macro-miners are.) You can use whatever adjectives you want to describe this player's behavior. My point stands. You cannot be certain that this was grief play. You're making my point for me. What "proof" was there that Samuel was a "macro miner"? Any? Was it enough to justify the behavior of the other pilot? Where was the benefit of doubt for Sam we're now supposed to extend to the player who took his ore? For the record, I never tried to argue this was "grief play." All I said was I'm sick of witch hunts and tired of people using the excuse, "I thought it was a macro miner" to rationalize. If the other player was indeed a pirate (or just trying to goad Samuel into a one-sided fight), he should grow a pair and own it. If however he truly thought he was defending EVE from "macro miners" then he should acknowledge his own incompetence and stick to filing petitions to CCP. That's just my opinion; take it for whatever it's worth.
Nash Leigth Children of Azathoth Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2007.01.19 05:46:00 - [50] Originally by: Blue Pixie Originally by: Nash Leigth What proof exactly did Samuel offer? Talking to him in local in English? That's not proof. And where did you get the notion that the dude who stole his ore recognized him as legitimate miner? Please quote the specific text from his posts where there is mention of sufficient proof and of event of recongnition, as I cannot find it. (In fact, note that Samuel was in NPC corp as many macro-miners are.) You can use whatever adjectives you want to describe this player's behavior. My point stands. You cannot be certain that this was grief play. You're making my point for me. What "proof" was there that Samuel was a "macro miner"? Any? Was it enough to justify the behavior of the other pilot? Where was the benefit of doubt for Sam we're now supposed to extend to the player who took his ore? For the record, I never tried to argue this was "grief play." All I said was I'm sick of witch hunts and tired of people using the excuse, "I thought it was a macro miner" to rationalize. If the other player was indeed a pirate (or just trying to goad Samuel into a one-sided fight), he should grow a pair and own it. If however he truly thought he was defending EVE from "macro miners" then he should acknowledge his own incompetence and stick to filing petitions to CCP. That's just my opinion; take it for whatever it's worth. Erm, we are not debating here whether the guy who took the ore had the right to assume that Samuel is a macro miner. All that I have been saying here, is that he might have been convinced or he might not have been - it's not clear. So you can't say that this was definitely a case of griefing. I am not going to debate whether or he actually recognized Samuel as real miner as you'd need the aforementioned psychic mind-reading ability to acertain that. It would help you to see the point I'm making if you stayed on the topic of this discussion. This is the last time i'm repeating my point of view. You cannot be certain that this was an instance of deliberate griefing.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.19 08:02:00 - [51] Originally by: Billy Sastard A jettisoned can is technically discarded items, and as such, is treated so. Please don't write this rubbish. Till the wrecks all the shipkills loot was in jet can, mission targes usually are still in those. Jetcan mining is used because the stupid size limit of the secure cans and the rules against anchoring cans in proximity of each other. Both are artificial limitations imposed by CCP. I suppose some Dev find amusing the ore theft, even more so as they are alomost impossible to avoid in 1.0 or 0.9 space, unless you accept to limit your mining to next to nothing. It is fun that mining is suggested as a metod to make isk in the tutorial and then artificially limited so to make more rewrding isk wise sthaling from miners than mining.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.01.19 09:04:00 - [52] Logic people... come on. IF: It is not griefing for the guy to steal the ore and then go sell it. THEN: It must not be griefing for the guy to just blow it up if he so chooses. Simple. ------------------- ... [OK] ... zOMG!
Dark Nemesis Gallente Children of Azathoth Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2007.01.19 09:11:00 - [53] Originally by: Stitcher it'd be so much easier if there was a hard and fast definition of "Griefing". Mine amounts to a kind of schoolyard bullying - doing something with no intent of profit, for the sole purpose of inconveniencing somebody else and extracting malicious humour from their inconvenience. To my eyes, he was most definitely griefing. Ah yes, but yet again you need to define the motive. If a corp did this to drive said player out of the system, then there IS profit for them, there IS gain. By definition, that would not be griefing. Its not hounding the player out of the game, since they wouldn't follow him from system to system to do it. Just hounding him out of a system. One isntance, a grief is does not make. If it was repeated, then yes, I'd maybe agree with you, unless there was some profit or even if the profit was not apparent - like distrupting another corps ISK making to do them harm. Gain comes in all shapes and sizes, and we have no real idea of the player in questions motive, even if baiting looks like the most likely. Quote: If you responded to conversations and had a name like Samuel Freedom, then the probability is VERY strong that you are not a macro miner, and any macro hunter knows it - they usually have names like XKCDWC and don't respond to anything - bumping, hails, looting the can, anything. You did, and have a real name. that pretty much negates the possibility of your being a macro miner, so when the guy pulled that excuse on you, he was talking out of his wossname. Not all macro miners have these kinds of names. Not all chinese macro miners have these names. Not all macro users are chinese. Not all players who use macros use them all the time. Not all macro miners are AFK all the time. Not all macro miners don't shutdown the macro and take action one way or another. Oh and not all macro miners DON'T convo you. The new wave of macro hunters are largely just bandwagon jumpers who want to gank any old miner that looks like it fits the bill, without actually knowing much about the ways to stop them. Still, it's every persons right to take down a ship in empire even to suicide gank if they think theres some gain from it, macro or not - some people just use macro hunter as a tag to justify it, just as some people use anti-pirate tags. I don't really care if they are right or wrong in that usage of terms, or whether people deem it "lame" that they label themselves as such. That's their business. Quote: My interpretation is that his sole motive was to either find an excuse to blow you up (by goading you into taking your ore back) or else to otherwise cause you in-game financial harm - in this case, detonating all your hard-won ore. That's griefing, to my mind. Lets ban all pirates then. Let's ban all traders who undercut others prices while we're at it, since they will cause in-game financial harm . Let's ban people who wardec other corps to simply distrupt their business operations. Maybe we should have to submit a reason to ccp/concord for a wardec to become valid and the reason better be good, else it's a random wardec and that surely must be griefing. You lose your ore, you move on. Even if it's seemingly malicious. If it happens multiple times and it's obvious the player is just out to get you, then maybe there's an argument.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.01.19 09:18:00 - [54] He stole your ore... After he does that, it's not your ore anymore, it's his. He's allowed to do with his stuff as he wants, including blowing it up. It's ALL your own fault for using a jet can. General advice: Stop whining!
Dark Nemesis Gallente Children of Azathoth Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2007.01.19 09:22:00 - [55] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Billy Sastard A jettisoned can is technically discarded items, and as such, is treated so. Please don't write this rubbish. Till the wrecks all the shipkills loot was in jet can, mission targes usually are still in those. Yeah, space rubbish that you can loot. You didnt own the ship that you blew up, and the can is not secure. It actually IS considered discared items technically, and always has been. It just reached the point where people cried so much about not being able to fight back from jetmining that a flag was put in, because you used to be able to just grab it and face no consequences. The horror eh? Quote: Jetcan mining is used because the stupid size limit of the secure cans and the rules against anchoring cans in proximity of each other. Both are artificial limitations imposed by CCP. As is the risk/reward factor. You leave ore/items in space for someone to grab, they can grab it. You at least now have a chance to fight back as I said above. I'll see if the i can find the original statement regarding a jet can being "space rubbish" as it was over 3 years ago that I read it. Yes, my memory is that good. ;) Quote: I suppose some Dev find amusing the ore theft, even more so as they are alomost impossible to avoid in 1.0 or 0.9 space, unless you accept to limit your mining to next to nothing. Life's tough eh? You know, and this is a secret so don't tell anyone ok? You could always join up with other players, and then have someone to haul for you. Ctazy I know, but trust me it works! Sshhh... ;) Quote: It is fun that mining is suggested as a metod to make isk in the tutorial and then artificially limited so to make more rewrding isk wise sthaling from miners than mining. And yet again, you're heading left, when the point is in fact somewhere off to the right. Both have risk/reward now built in. Mining and theft. It's amazing that even given the chance to defend yourself (And i don't mean a covetor v a BS as such) by having corp aggro etc people still complain about this issue, simply because they choose to maximise their rewards and expect the risk to hide under the duvet. Makes me laugh it does, really. :)
Dark Nemesis Gallente Children of Azathoth Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2007.01.19 09:44:00 - [56] Edited by: Dark Nemesis on 19/01/2007 09:41:13 I can't find the actual original official link for this, as it seems to have been updated with all the wreck/salvage/GSC information, however in 2003: Quote: "The regular containers were designed to jettison unwanted items into space or to hold loot from blown up ships. They were designed so that any player could take from them because that was essential for them to function as they were intended. Players later invented the "container mining" method after noticing that the containers could hold way more than any cargohold. This use for the containers was never intended and it has the obvious flaw that any player with a reduced sense of right and wrong can come by and take everything from the container and no one can do anything about it. This risk should be known to all players and there will be no reimbursement for ore lost this way. Also, ore "theft" is not considered harrassment so no punishment will be dealt out to those who choose to "steal". Players who are thinking of taking up a career as ore thiefs should note that they will face a lifetime of unpopularity and unhappiness as a result. CCP has decided to meet players halfway by implementing secure containers that can be bought on the market and have the advantage of being equipped with a password lock. These containers cost money and do not hold the vast amount of ore that the regular containers do. However, with good organization and frequent ore pickups using Industrial ships, they can be very useful for large scale mining operations. The bottom line is: If you use regular containers to store your ore you assume all the risk. Having your valuables floating in space in an unsecure container is equivelant to throwing money on the street. Should you lurk nearby and wait for someone to take the money and then attack him, the police would deal with you, not him. The same goes in Eve. If you attack a player who just took "your" ore from a regular container in a system with a security level of 0.5 or higher. You will be destroyed by Concord."
Za Po Caldari	Posted - 2007.01.19 10:03:00 - [57] Originally by: The Gamemaster Had the pirate gotten the miner to fight, he would have gained something. Had the miner payed a ransom, he would have gotten his ore back, and the pirate would have gained something. Not grief play. QFT. The pirate had potential gain. Therefore, it isn't griefing. The fact that the potential gain failed to materialize is irrelevant.
Cipher7	Posted - 2007.01.19 10:18:00 - [58] Well obviously it's griefing. But this is a dark sci fi game and griefing is often considered "acceptable" here. I don't practice it, but lots of people do. You gotta see it from a different perspective, it's just darwinism playing itself out, from the point of view that Eve is a "video game" obviously video games shouldn't HAVE griefing, but this is no ordinary video game, this is a mature melancholy dark sci fi title, and alot of the behaviors practiced here would not be considered "acceptable" anywhere else. And I am ok with that. I am ok with griefing even if it happens to me, because keeping the artistic darkness of Eve is more important than any one player. I dont consider myself as paying $15 for a video game. I consider myself to be sponsoring a bunch of artists that create a dark world and let me participate in it.
Apis Dorsetta	Posted - 2007.01.19 10:53:00 - [59] Originally by: Stitcher it'd be so much easier if there was a hard and fast definition of "Griefing". Mine amounts to a kind of schoolyard bullying - doing something with no intent of profit, for the sole purpose of inconveniencing somebody else and extracting malicious humour from their inconvenience. If we allow that griefing = schoolyard bullying then surely doing it with aims for profit "Give me all your lunch money or I beat you to a pulp" Is also griefing?
Baron Oxes Hypermagic Mountain	Posted - 2007.01.19 11:02:00 - [60] Quote: Mine amounts to a kind of schoolyard bullying - doing something with no intent of profit, for the sole purpose of inconveniencing somebody else and extracting malicious humour from their inconvenience. If this is considered unacceptable behaviour, then I (and I suspect many others) should have been banned a long time ago. I've taken pleasure in blowing people up for no reason other than I wanted to - not for the loot, not for a killmail, not for bragging rights, not for salvage - just 'because' : )
DarkFenix Caldari Pilots From Honour	Posted - 2007.01.19 11:12:00 - [61] Indeed, take a trip towards low sec or 0.0. People will blow you up. They won't necessarily blow you up for loot or profit or anything. It will be for fun. For their own enjoyment, nothing more. Under certain definitions, this could be called griefing. Why is it possible? The victim chose to fly into unregulated space. You're getting your ore popped, not for profit but so someone can get their kicks from it (though it could also be industrial sabotage). Admittedly I look down on such behaviour, but it is within the game mechanics so is perfectly legitimate play. And you are inviting such griefers by jetcan mining. Granted, jetcan mining is the most effective way to mind. But as has been stated by the devs, they are not intended for that use.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.01.19 13:17:00 - [62] Edited by: Andrue on 19/01/2007 13:17:09 Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Avon No. But blowing up a miner's ore isn't baiting, is it? It is nothing more than a way to "hurt" the miner for not falling for your trap. It gains no reward. It is an act only indulged in to annoy the other player, with no other reward. The difference is subtle, but it is important. He didn't blow up the miner's ore. If he had, I would have agreed with you. He blew up his ore. He probably did this because he had no way of ferrying his ore to a station. He didn't give the miner his ore, because he didn't want to. It's his ore after all, and he can do what he wants with it. The miner had a chance to take his ore back. The miner knew this was a trap, and didn't take the ore back. The pirate had no further use for his ore, so he blew it up. /Ki Agreed. The theif could have left his can and gone elsewhere I suppose but once you accept that stealing someone's ore is acceptable game play (however despicable) then you have to grant the theif the right to consider what he stole to be his property. As soon as it becomes reasonable for the theif to think of the ore as being his property he has the right to do with it as he wants. It only becomes grief play if he follows someone around and keeps doing it. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] Linux is only free if your time is worthless
Soulita Gallente Inner Core	Posted - 2007.01.19 13:31:00 - [63] Edited by: Soulita on 19/01/2007 13:32:05 It is an interesting question if stealing ore and then blowing it up when it belongs to you is griefing or not. My opinion is it could be interpreted in both ways. a) it is griefing because you annoy another player without benefit for yourself b) it is not griefing because you are blowing up your own ore after all (after stealing it the ore is in your possession) Both a and b are equally valid. I think no matter how much we speculate here we wont know for sure... ... until someone official makes a post here clarifying the situation.
Gabriel Death Caldari CP Navy	Posted - 2007.02.16 11:23:00 - [64] Edited by: Gabriel Death on 16/02/2007 11:20:54 Originally by: Stitcher To my eyes, he was most definitely griefing. If you responded to conversations and had a name like Samuel Freedom, then the probability is VERY strong that you are not a macro miner, and any macro hunter knows it - they usually have names like XKCDWC and don't respond to anything - bumping, hails, looting the can, anything. BullCrap, and it is. I am a Marco hunter, and all MARCO'ers are in a NOOB-Corp as well as SPIES! Ive seen Marco-ratters, Ships that are programmed to Shoot rats/npcs to gain bountie. Ive seen this person have two different play styles, when she was at the keyboard (She Looted the wrecks and salvaged them) and when the marco program was running (She left the wrecks alone and didnt even stop to see what were in the hauler spawns or the True Sansha Spawns) And heres the Kill mail Just to prove it Claudia (Marco-Ratter in 0.0) and you'l notice that the first two names who killed her, were members of her own corp. FYI, they invited her in to see if she was marco'ing and they were right. AND you can even convo me on that! Most of us who live in 0.0 know to loot these because they have valubles to make stuff and have nice juicy faction items to sell to mission runners in empire or too make our ships that much better in pvp. AND there is no griefing unless he does it the whole time to the player. Baiting is Allowed, look at wars, Snipers do not kill the Soldier, they WOUND him and INJURE him. Other people rush in and also get INJURED. If no one SAVES the GUY IE = Your CAN! The Sniper KILLS the GUY IE = YOUR CAN. It Happens, GET OVER IT! I was a Miner and it happened to me, Hell it happened to me in 1.0 space, and IT IS ALLOWED, thats why the Dev's wont answer your petitions of CRYING! And where in the Rules does it say that thiefing is Grief, you either do SOMETHING or NOT, when you Chose NOT to do anything, it was simply YOUR fault for not learning and FYI, you are not New, new is 14 days less, same as a trial, the fact that you are like 2-3 months old shows the fact that you are a experienced player and should have been Better at mining, and how to secure. Feel Free to send me GRIEF-Mail in game to say How much of a Ass i am, or how wrong i am, or how you would like to catch Marco'ers, cause its real easy, AND FYI Stitcher, Names can be VARIED even REAL NAMES, cause the name you were looking for was taken already, so dont give me that kind of bullcrap. Now that ive sayd my piece and it took an awful long time to do it. Fell free like i sayd to evemail me at my toons Name of Gabriel Death. BTW if you kill someone in my RL Land, you walk after 6 months and if you dont pay your TV liesence, you get sent to jail for 10 years, SO each land or game has its own rules and it should not be confused with IN-GAME! Marco-Killer
Omega Man The Geddy Foundation	Posted - 2007.02.16 11:34:00 - [65] Originally by: Nero Scuro There is no such thing as griefing in EVE. If he blew up your ore he did it for a reason - because it was funny. EVE may be a game, but it isn't trying to feel like one. If someone is an ******* in real life you don't get god going 'omg that's griefing, he's totally banned!', so it won't happen in EVE either. Just deal with it, get revenge or whatever. No what happens in RL is you report his sorry ass to the authorities with your evidence and they deal with him. Fines, freedoms banned etc etc is the result of anti-social behaviour.
Zaqar	Posted - 2007.02.16 11:37:00 - [66] Originally by: Soulita It is an interesting question if stealing ore and then blowing it up when it belongs to you is griefing or not.. There's no point in arguing over whether something is 'Griefing' or not. 'Griefing' is a term from other MMOs that doesn't really apply to Eve (since the whole idea of the game is mostly to screw each other over). What are you actually asking? Is this allowed? or Is this person an arse? I'd hazard a guess that the answer to both would be yes.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.16 11:44:00 - [67] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 16/02/2007 11:43:52 Griefing is in the intention, not in the action The specific action is irrelevant, and trying to determine whether a given action is griefing is just wrong, because it is the intention which defines it. If you have to ask it's either a) They were not griefing or b) They failed You can't logically come to the forum and ask this question. If someone is making your gametime miserable for no other reason than to make you miserable, that is griefing. It doesn't matter what the mechanic is, if you are in a war and they repeatedly blow up your ship it's a perfectly legitimate action, but if they go out of their way to make you miserable over it, that's griefing. If they are failing to make you miserable, even if they are trying, they are not really griefing, as there is no harm done, and since you can't truly judge their intentions, just leave it alone. It has also been correctly pointed out above that griefing is very difficult in Eve, because Eve is such a harsh game anyway that you really have to go above and beyond the call of asshattery to make it any harsher for someone. ---------- IBTL \o/ Fix the ******* map! Privateers FTW
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.16 11:53:00 - [68] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 16/02/2007 11:49:38 Originally by: Avon Originally by: Ki An Is baiting miners griefplay? No. But blowing up a miner's ship isn't baiting, is it? It is nothing more than a way to "hurt" the miner for not falling for your trap. It gains no reward. It is an act only indulged in to annoy the other player, with no other reward. The difference is subtle, but it is important. I changed one word in this post. Spot the difference. ---------- IBTL \o/ Fix the ******* map! No such thing as griefing in Eve
Haks'he Lirky Durgar og Illmenni	Posted - 2007.02.16 12:02:00 - [69] Originally by: Samuel Freedom was he just greifing or is this ok pratice. Griefing is an acceptable practice in EvE online.. You dont like him stealing your ore? You can shoot him.
Maam	Posted - 2007.02.16 12:37:00 - [70] Edited by: Maam on 16/02/2007 12:34:36 I've heard everything now. Someone saying that responding in local in English does not disprove he's a macro miner! Perhaps they should give up macroing in Eve and apply for the Loebner Prize instead. (Dr. Loebner pledged a Grand Prize of $100,000 and a Gold Medal for the first computer whose responses were indistinguishable from a human's.) Seeing as we can't really ever get agreement on "griefing", let's just call it bullying shall we? And running to teacher, even Ma'am, is never as good as a good kick in the *******s and a poke in the eye. Get some mates, get a bored merc corp, get Privateers on his bulling ass. Nuke him back to the stone age. Edit: "poke in the eve" / "poke in the eye" .. damn freudiuan slips!
Laythun Black Lance Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.02.16 12:47:00 - [71] Originally by: SSgt Sniper Originally by: Menod Penter Edited by: Menod Penter on 18/01/2007 22:56:20 No Griefing... Because you have the option to 'secure' your belongings. 1) Don't jet can mine. 2) Mine to your cargohold. 3) Mine to a secure container. It's easy to prevent theft..... That's not theft that's griefing. If he'd stolen it he'd have made some money instead of spending money to blow it up. Ok err its not He Stole it, so now it belongs to him, he can do what he wants with his own belongings. Black Lance Brother
Maam	Posted - 2007.02.16 12:56:00 - [72] Edited by: Maam on 16/02/2007 12:52:52 Originally by: Laythun He Stole it, so now it belongs to him, he can do what he wants with his own belongings. How ridiculous. Yes, it works like that within the game mechanics, but what a pathetic way of looking at it. I must assume that the Eve bullies are making up for real world inadequacies and find the only way they can be the "big man" is to kick virtual sand in people's faces in a computer game.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.16 12:59:00 - [73] Originally by: Maam Edited by: Maam on 16/02/2007 12:52:52 Originally by: Laythun He Stole it, so now it belongs to him, he can do what he wants with his own belongings. How ridiculous. Yes, it works like that within the game mechanics, but what a pathetic way of looking at it. I must assume that the Eve bullies are making up for real world inadequacies and find the only way they can be the "big man" is to kick virtual sand in people's faces in a computer game. Yes that must be it Jesus, this is poor even for the Eve-O Fora. ---------- IBTL \o/ Fix the ******* map! No such thing as griefing in Eve
Zaqar	Posted - 2007.02.16 13:04:00 - [74] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Maam Edited by: Maam on 16/02/2007 12:52:52 Originally by: Laythun He Stole it, so now it belongs to him, he can do what he wants with his own belongings. How ridiculous. Yes, it works like that within the game mechanics, but what a pathetic way of looking at it. I must assume that the Eve bullies are making up for real world inadequacies and find the only way they can be the "big man" is to kick virtual sand in people's faces in a computer game. Yes that must be it Jesus, this is poor even for the Eve-O Fora. Signed. Pathetic.
Maam	Posted - 2007.02.16 13:10:00 - [75] Originally by: Crumplecorn Yes that must be it Jesus, this is poor even for the Eve-O Fora. I had a moment of clarity when I saw Make Love, Not Warcraft the other day. See that guy in that. That's you lot, that is.
Zaqar	Posted - 2007.02.16 13:17:00 - [76] Originally by: Maam Originally by: Crumplecorn Yes that must be it Jesus, this is poor even for the Eve-O Fora. I had a moment of clarity when I saw Make Love, Not Warcraft the other day. See that guy in that. That's you lot, that is. This is not the game you are looking for.
Haks'he Lirky Durgar og Illmenni	Posted - 2007.02.16 13:18:00 - [77] Edited by: Haks''he Lirky on 16/02/2007 13:18:05 Edited by: Haks''he Lirky on 16/02/2007 13:15:56 Originally by: Maam Edited by: Maam on 16/02/2007 12:52:52 Originally by: Laythun He Stole it, so now it belongs to him, he can do what he wants with his own belongings. How ridiculous. Yes, it works like that within the game mechanics, but what a pathetic way of looking at it. I must assume that the Eve bullies are making up for real world inadequacies and find the only way they can be the "big man" is to kick virtual sand in people's faces in a computer game. Or they (read we) might just hold a different perspective on the world than you do, or unless your one of those people who only accepts his own views as correct? Like fanatics who cant really understand that people in the world prefer things differently than other people. Ive started to like ****ing people off, I like to see the responses they manage to construct, I like to find different methods within the game mechanics to be a nuisance in the world of eve online... Even though most of the time people assume im in some way compensating for something in real life.. What does that say about people who play counter strike? Or Grand Theft Auto? It's a game, the people who take things seriously and assume to much about motives arent really playing a game in their minds. Cry about ingame pixels and you might have to take a session with a head doctor... EDIT: I for example could assume that people who mine all day long and do nothing but hoard iskies are compensating for their failed career and education, being stuck in a dead end job with no sense of accomplishment. but then again why should I assume that?
Maam	Posted - 2007.02.16 13:19:00 - [78] Originally by: Zaqar This is not the game you are looking for. I know. It's too tough for me. I prefer Hello Kitty, Island Adventure.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.16 13:22:00 - [79] Originally by: Maam Originally by: Crumplecorn Yes that must be it Jesus, this is poor even for the Eve-O Fora. I had a moment of clarity when I saw Make Love, Not Warcraft the other day. See that guy in that. That's you lot, that is. You mean we're all really high level in WoW? ---------- IBTL \o/ Fix the ******* map! No such thing as griefing in Eve
Zaqar	Posted - 2007.02.16 13:24:00 - [80] Originally by: Maam Originally by: Zaqar This is not the game you are looking for. I know. It's too tough for me. I prefer Hello Kitty, Island Adventure. Troll.
DarkElf Caldari Veto. Academy	Posted - 2007.02.16 13:27:00 - [81] technically if he enjoyed doing it then it is not greifing. why someone would get enjoyment out of that however is beyond me and he has clearly missed something about eve. DE
Maam	Posted - 2007.02.16 13:27:00 - [82] Originally by: Zaqar Originally by: Maam Originally by: Zaqar This is not the game you are looking for. I know. It's too tough for me. I prefer Hello Kitty, Island Adventure. Troll. LOL. Forum griefing 4TW.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.16 13:30:00 - [83] Originally by: Maam Originally by: Zaqar Originally by: Maam Originally by: Zaqar This is not the game you are looking for. I know. It's too tough for me. I prefer Hello Kitty, Island Adventure. Troll. LOL. Forum griefing 4TW. Sigh ---------- IBTL \o/ Fix the ******* map! No such thing as griefing in Eve
Malcanis Galactech Industries Ltd. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.16 13:32:00 - [84] Originally by: Sm0kE Sounds like "greifing" to me. He was not profiting off stealing your ore (except maybe a quick laugh). Who knows, take it up with the devs cause I don't really get it. You can steal ore, but you can't steal ore and then do with it what you want. What, I can't mine for an hour and decide to blow up my can because it doesn't benefit me in anyway? I don't think you really understand the concept of "ransom".

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