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Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
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Posted - 2007.01.19 14:26:00 -
[31]
Logging off is metagaming, pure and simple. There are plenty of ways to escape a camp. Cloaks and MWDs spring to mind immediately - anything smaller than a BS will escape back to the gate with an MWD unless they get webbed multiple times, and it's my experience that gate camps below 10 peeps tend to only have around 1 or 2 webs.
People who complain that logging off is the only way obviously never tried any of the alternatives, or they did try them and got angry because they didn't have a 100% success rate.
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
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Posted - 2007.01.19 14:29:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Imaldris
You can't always know a bubble is at a gate, and if you jump though a gate and find it's got a bubble on it, your going to log before your auto-cloak runs out.
Gate Camping for system defence is one thing, but mass blob gate camping vital routes is pretty lame. However the game dynamics allow it, just like they allow for people to log off.
If you gate camp for any reason other than system defence, then you can't try and claim the moral high ground and moan that people log when in a bubble. Personally it's common sense, blob = death, and unless your in an inty, you'll never get out of the bubble except by logging. If your not happy, get CCP to change the game dynamics to give people more options of getting out of bubbles.
Damn right.
It's not about 'moral highground'. Gate camping exists for killing people. That's why you enter a system at the gate, and not at a random spot in space. Logging off exists so you can leave the game once you get bored/have to do something else. It does NOT exist for the purpose of saving your ship.
If that was the point of logging off was to save your ship CCP would have given you a big red button that makes your ship warp off at random and ignore bubbles, wouldn't they? Save you the inconvenience of having to log back in again.
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Imaldris
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Posted - 2007.01.19 14:31:00 -
[33]
I do not play this game to be fresh meat to grief players.
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Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
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Posted - 2007.01.19 14:32:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Imaldris
I do not play this game to be fresh meat to grief players.
You do not play this game very well then.
Or understand it very well.
Or... you get the picture, you suck, etc.
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
DarkFenix
Caldari
Pilots From Honour
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Posted - 2007.01.19 14:34:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Imaldris
I do not play this game to be fresh meat to grief players.
Then either stay in high sec or play another game. If you go into 0.0 you are giving your consent to anyone who fancies popping you, Eve is designed to be this way. Cheating at a game because one of its features doesn't suit you is pretty low.
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Ajaku
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Posted - 2007.01.19 14:34:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Ajaku on 19/01/2007 14:34:16
CCP needs to make it so if your in a PLAYER bubble or being warp scrambled by a PLAYER, you can't warp, logoff or disconnect. You sit there and die, solves everything.
If you go into a situation where you can be or are bubbled or scrambled by a player, you don't deserve a get out of gank card, LIFE, even more so, EVE isn't fair.
All those saying there are real disconnects, hardly,
most of the people who argue that way are people who logoff at gate camps. Real disconnects do happen, but not as much as the loggers would like us to think.
Heck, basing it on what they say, there are disconnects every five minutes and they always result in a lost ship. 
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Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
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Posted - 2007.01.19 14:41:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Nero Scuro
Originally by: Imaldris
I do not play this game to be fresh meat to grief players.
You do not play this game very well then.
Or understand it very well.
Or... you get the picture, you suck, etc.
Ok ok, let me put it another slightly more constructive way. Supposing you were playing Monopoly, and another player had bought all of the hotels along a stretch of the board.
You are doing the same in EVE as saying in monopoly "omg that's not fair, he's ganking me with all his hotels! griefer!" then stomping on the board and walking away in a huff.
Seriously, it's EXACTLY the same. Somebody else is playing by the rules, you're losing, so you quit and stomp away, ruining somebody elses game.
Learn to play.
___
The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
iiixiii
Cruor Frater
Coalition of Carebear Killers
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Posted - 2007.01.19 14:45:00 -
[38]
We had a hostile ishtar trying to pick off some ally npc'ers yesterday so we went after him and started to probe it. He kept moving around but after 20-25min of probing we were getting close to get him. Then he does a logoffski and disapears. that's just annoying... If you do a ctrl-q you should stay in game for 3 minutes or even longer without agressing anything... that why people would be more careful doin logoffski's.
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Emsigma
Contraband Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.01.19 14:47:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Apocryphai
If CCP made logoffski impossible without changing either of those 2 factors then it would have a drastic effect on the game. Prepare to spend a LOT longer in your gatecamps with no targets at all.
The problem that you are seeing is that people just randomly spawn inside bubbles, but that is not really the case.
Camps and bubbles are somewhat static so if you don't scout your jnump in to 0.0 then you end up in a bubble. Why should it be accepted to use borderline exploits to save their skin then?
Imagine if you could press Ctrl-Alt-F1-F12 and you could always warp away no matter if you were scrambled or not. Do you think that is viable as well when you are scrambled and about to die?
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Ajaku
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Posted - 2007.01.19 14:49:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Emsigma
Originally by: Apocryphai
If CCP made logoffski impossible without changing either of those 2 factors then it would have a drastic effect on the game. Prepare to spend a LOT longer in your gatecamps with no targets at all.
The problem that you are seeing is that people just randomly spawn inside bubbles, but that is not really the case.
Camps and bubbles are somewhat static so if you don't scout your jnump in to 0.0 then you end up in a bubble. Why should it be accepted to use borderline exploits to save their skin then?
Imagine if you could press Ctrl-Alt-F1-F12 and you could always warp away no matter if you were scrambled or not. Do you think that is viable as well when you are scrambled and about to die?
The main problem here is that they are lazy. They don't scout, they don't ask in local, they don't even check the map, because when they do hit a camp, "LOL CTRL+Q".
WTZ has spoiled them even more, and made it easier to avoid gate camps.
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Tornan
Minmatar
Oberon Incorporated
Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.01.19 14:50:00 -
[41]
Originally by: iiixiii
We had a hostile ishtar trying to pick off some ally npc'ers yesterday so we went after him and started to probe it. He kept moving around but after 20-25min of probing we were getting close to get him. Then he does a logoffski and disapears. that's just annoying... If you do a ctrl-q you should stay in game for 3 minutes or even longer without agressing anything... that why people would be more careful doin logoffski's.
Dont agree with you at all for this, if some one has to go to dinner answer the phone etc, they should be able to log in relative safety as long as they are not in a bubble, or agressed someone. The bubble thing is annoying. The scenario you presented is just you not being able to catch some one who is activly eluding you then they decide to go play another game or do something else and you want to penalize them simply for having a life. Should it be that you can only log off in stations that would blow.
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Kate Nexus
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Posted - 2007.01.19 14:52:00 -
[42]
Originally by: DarkFenix
]Then either stay in high sec or play another game.
OR he can go into 0.0 as he wishes and play however he wants. he's no the one who created a whine thread
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Kate Nexus
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Posted - 2007.01.19 14:54:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Ajaku
All those saying there are real disconnects, hardly
My ISP resets once every day during my play time and my router refreshes twice a day. hardly? then maybe youre not very experienced with routers. resetting keeps them fresh.
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Ajaku
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Posted - 2007.01.19 14:55:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Ajaku on 19/01/2007 14:53:35
Originally by: Kate Nexus
Originally by: DarkFenix
]Then either stay in high sec or play another game.
OR he can go into 0.0 as he wishes and play however he wants. he's no the one who created a whine thread
Real nice, its whining to point out a cheap tactic that needs to be fixed, but its ok to use said tactic.
Originally by: Kate Nexus
Originally by: Ajaku
All those saying there are real disconnects, hardly
My ISP resets once every day during my play time and my router refreshes twice a day. hardly? then maybe youre not very experienced with routers. resetting keeps them fresh.
They do happen, and two times a day is nothing, what are the odds it will happen during a gate camp?
As for keeping them fresh, my router never has to reset and doesn't get slower as time goes on. So both your ISP and router suck.
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D'Mur Pilru
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Posted - 2007.01.19 14:58:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Nero Scuro
Ok ok, let me put it another slightly more constructive way. Supposing you were playing Monopoly, and another player had bought all of the hotels along a stretch of the board.
You are doing the same in EVE as saying in monopoly "omg that's not fair, he's ganking me with all his hotels! griefer!" then stomping on the board and walking away in a huff.
Seriously, it's EXACTLY the same. Somebody else is playing by the rules, you're losing, so you quit and stomp away, ruining somebody elses game.
Learn to play.
Most stupid analogy ever...let me rephrase, it's like playing monopoly, but by the time you join the game (=create an account), the board is already set, there are hotels everywhere, so you might just a well stay on start (=empire).
And where did this discussion turn into 0.0 gatecamps? How about sitting with a bunch of HAC's at a high sec to 0.4 gate, and shooting all that decloaks (usually newer players?)
Map= inadequate ; scouts=metagaming (not to mention expensive, 2 accounts for the casual gamer, me thinks not)
Maybe we should get a big bright red button, to save us the trouble of relogging? :)
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DarkFenix
Caldari
Pilots From Honour
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Posted - 2007.01.19 15:07:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Kate Nexus
Originally by: DarkFenix
]Then either stay in high sec or play another game.
OR he can go into 0.0 as he wishes and play however he wants. he's no the one who created a whine thread
That logic would work if this were a single player game. But it isn't. It is a multiplayer game and he is exploiting the game mechanics at the expense of others' play experience. 0.0 is not designed so that you can fly around with impunity with an "I win" button to get out of any sticky situation you're careless enough to run into.
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DarkFenix
Caldari
Pilots From Honour
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Posted - 2007.01.19 15:17:00 -
[47]
Edited by: DarkFenix on 19/01/2007 15:14:47
Originally by: D'Mur Pilru
Most stupid analogy ever...let me rephrase, it's like playing monopoly, but by the time you join the game (=create an account), the board is already set, there are hotels everywhere, so you might just a well stay on start (=empire).
And where did this discussion turn into 0.0 gatecamps? How about sitting with a bunch of HAC's at a high sec to 0.4 gate, and shooting all that decloaks (usually newer players?)
Map= inadequate ; scouts=metagaming (not to mention expensive, 2 accounts for the casual gamer, me thinks not)
Maybe we should get a big bright red button, to save us the trouble of relogging? :)
High skill points does not = win. Anyone who knows anything about Eve knows this. Yes they give an advantage, but newer characters have easily got a chance against older characters after a few months. The older player will almost certainly win due to having more pvp experience, but that isn't the point here, player experience is a factor in all games.
Let's go back to the Monopoly analogy. So you've started at go, and all the older players have hotels on Mayfair, Bond Street etc. Just don't go there until you can afford the Hotel's fee. Stick around Old Kent Road until you find your feet. Head on to Vine Street once you have a bit more confidence. Then when you're actually ready and experienced, head on to Mayfair to play with the big boys (and perhaps even kick them out of their own hotels).
What players are currently doing is trying to get all the way round the board without the experience or capital to do so, and when they have to make the Mayfair run, they cheat. They pick up the Chance cards and take out the "Advance to Go" card and use it.
As for HACs harrassing people in lowsec, no big deal there. With WTZ you're not likely to get caught, and no bubbling for them either, making logging off not an exploit.
Who says getting a scout involves getting a second account. Get a corpmate to scout for you (perhaps you can haul some of his stuff out to 0.0 as payment), perhaps get a friend's account details and make a newbie alt on that to scout every now and then. As for the map, it's meant to be inadequate. You can tell if there is a long term gate camp somewhere, but it isn't meant to help you pinpoint every possible hostile on your route.
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Jerd Ero'kad
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Posted - 2007.01.19 15:20:00 -
[48]
I am reading through this post, and I am seeing quite a few people referring to situations where people log out in combat...
The last time I checked, if you have been agressed and log out, your ship is going to just sit there. So the arguments where people are complaining about people logging out when scrambled or being shot at are misinformed.
The only way you are going to initiate that emergency warp is to log out before any aggression toward your ship. Anyone who is stupid enough to ctrl+q or whatever after they have been locked and are being shot has lost his ship anyway. The pod might warp out, but the real loss has been incurred.
I am in no way defending or attacking log-off tactics, I just wanted to get that out, because it appears that some of the people here do not know how the mechanic actually works. One cannot just log out at any time and be safe.
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Miss CJB
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Posted - 2007.01.19 15:32:00 -
[49]
the origional post was about logging befor declocking, after jumping in. or logging in a buble (since you still go into emrgancy warp). i see no problems with loging in combat, if there scrambled. they usaly stay there.
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DarkFenix
Caldari
Pilots From Honour
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Posted - 2007.01.19 15:37:00 -
[50]
Agreed, logging off in combat (or shortly after combat), while dishonourable, is perfectly legit (and rather inadvisable, just ask CYVOK  ). The issue in discussion here is people logging off to avoid being affected by the warp scrambling effect of bubbles in any way.
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Eriv Kendri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.19 15:37:00 -
[51]
Perhaps the best way to get the logging off tactic fixed is to get so many people to do it that it impacts server performance - then it might get some attention.
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Raste
Shinra
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.01.19 15:41:00 -
[52]
I find it funny that often the same people crying over these meta-gaming tactics are the first to stand up to heap accolades on the organizations that make use of such tactics at an institutional level.
===This is a sig===
"no matter where you are or what you're doing, you know that down in the southeast, LV and RA are trying to stab each other in the face." -- Cadiz
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Janus Lee
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Posted - 2007.01.19 15:43:00 -
[53]
Anyone who proposes the "solution" of preventing logoffs in a bubble has to equally address a solution for mass dropping or lag when fleet jumping into a system, since that is presumably the reason CCP has allowed logoff warps to occur while bubbled. It seems to be a problem they're already thought about, because there is purposeful behavior in place of ships not allowed to warp off after being scrambled but able to do so in a bubble.
The simplistic cry of "prevent warping from bubbles" underestimates CCP's designers. Obviously that is the simple and obvious solution, but it ignores the more complicated and real question to solve - what to do about lag and drops (something that can be as much the server's fault as the client's) during system jumps? The latter is the reason why you don't see a fix yet even though CCP has said they plan to change it. It's not as easy of a problem to solve as you make it out to be, certainly not one that is made tidy by "prevent warps in bubbles."
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Devils Own666
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Posted - 2007.01.19 15:47:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Jerd Ero'kad
I am reading through this post, and I am seeing quite a few people referring to situations where people log out in combat...
The last time I checked, if you have been agressed and log out, your ship is going to just sit there. So the arguments where people are complaining about people logging out when scrambled or being shot at are misinformed.
It depends on whether you have returned that aggression, just because someone attacks you, doesn't mean you have aggresed them. If you fire back, and your scrambled, you will stay there.
If I jumped though a gate, and was cloaked and saw there was a blob (20+ ships), I'd log. Auto-cloak was designed to allow people to see what's happening at a gate before being visible to give people a chance to decide what to do next.
I have no problem with losing my ship in a fight, but I'm not in the habit of suiciding my ships, which is what a 20+ Blob would be.
If you stopped people from logging, if they saw a camp, well people might as well just self destruct.
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Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.19 15:48:00 -
[55]
Damn forums :/
Players that cant deal with dying unfairly need to leave the game, period.
Oh, and CCP better not solve this half-assed again or they'll regret it.
Old blog Originally by: Vriezuh
Naz: John is a realist
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Forum Joe
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Posted - 2007.01.19 15:54:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Forum Joe on 19/01/2007 15:51:10
Originally by: Miss CJB
can i have your stuff?
( http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=413407&page=1#2 )
So we have someone here who apparently advices people complaining about a problem to just quit the game, and what is this person doing?
Complaining.
Priceless
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Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
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Posted - 2007.01.19 15:55:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Devils Own666
It depends on whether you have returned that aggression, just because someone attacks you, doesn't mean you have aggresed them. If you fire back, and your scrambled, you will stay there.
No it doesn't. If you get fired on whether you fire back or not you get put under the aggro timer and take 15 mins to disappear from space. Unless you already logged out before you were fired upon.
Originally by: Devils Own666
If I jumped though a gate, and was cloaked and saw there was a blob (20+ ships), I'd log. Auto-cloak was designed to allow people to see what's happening at a gate before being visible to give people a chance to decide what to do next.
No it wasn't, auto-cloak was designed to stop people who lagged after jumping through a gate from getting ganked without even getting a chance to react. It used to be JIP before autocloak anyway.
Originally by: Devils Own666
I have no problem with losing my ship in a fight, but I'm not in the habit of suiciding my ships, which is what a 20+ Blob would be.
You're not suiciding your ship, because it isn't your choice whether or not you get killed. How can it be willful death if you have no say in that matter?
Originally by: Devils Own666
If you stopped people from logging, if they saw a camp, well people might as well just self destruct.
It takes 2 mins to self-destruct. And no, you're wrong. There are plenty of chances to escape a gate-camp, most people are just lazy/stupid/pessimistic about their chances/not going to play the game the way a 'griefer' forces them to so they'd rather cheat.
Everything that could be wrong with your post was wrong. Well done. 0/10.
___
The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
DarkFenix
Caldari
Pilots From Honour
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Posted - 2007.01.19 16:08:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Originally by: DarkFenix
Agreed, logging off in combat (or shortly after combat), while dishonourable, is perfectly legit (and rather inadvisable, just ask CYVOK ). The issue in discussion here is people logging off to avoid being affected by the warp scrambling effect of bubbles in any way.
Nothinhg legit about it, because you're exploiting to save your pod.
And spare me the lag whine, just die instead of cheating.
I do hope you're not implying I'm some logger offer. I have never once logged off during combat, and been quite lucky in the sense that I've never disconnected either. My most recent losses (in the past couple of weeks) were a Scorpion and a Taranis. In both cases I sat and watched as the ship got torn apart. Then I get back to home station (whether flying the pod there or the rather quicker way) and get on with Eve.
Oh and agreed on all counts Nero.
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Marcus TheMartin
Gallente
Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2007.01.19 16:08:00 -
[59]
To all of us against the logoffski I propose we put in BOLD RED FONT
DOWN WITH CTRL+Q!
DOWN WITH CTRL+Q!!! |
Forum Joe
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Posted - 2007.01.19 16:14:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Forum Joe on 19/01/2007 16:13:50
Originally by: Nero Scuro
Originally by: Imaldris
I do not play this game to be fresh meat to grief players.
You do not play this game very well then.
Or understand it very well.
Or... you get the picture, you suck, etc.
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I'm here to respond to your posts by setting up strawman arguments based on assumptions about your playstyle as well as personally attacking you for those aforementioned assumptions!
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Doesn't this sound familiar to you Nero Scuro?
Weird, maybe I missed the point?
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