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Blink
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Posted - 2003.12.05 21:25:00 -
[31]
Ya know everytime I read this something has bothered me about it and now I've pinned it down. This my friends, is a beutiful performance of prescripted bait and lead. Bravo to civ and mac, are you lawyers?
[SW] SW mac > how many belts are in ot-lib and z-6qyc ?...
[OC] Korath > ot-lib has 11
[SW] SW mac > how many at t-nnjz [OC] Korath ?
[OC] Korath > 18
[EV] Civil Deity > yes omega corp has 29 belts
[EV] Civil Deity > there are special circumstances there
[SW] SW mac > ?
-it goes on but that's the start. If you want I can pick it apart and add notes on the part I especially like. Anyone? Anyone?
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Civil Deity
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Posted - 2003.12.05 21:57:00 -
[32]
Are you guys that desperate to have to dig that deep and look THAT far into it. I guess it really doesnt matter cause whats done is done but that "theory" made me laugh.
Human Nature = Blame can never rest on yourself, even when you're cought banging on the bathroom floor "it wasn't me"
guess you're just proving that.
Civil Deity
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Civil Deity
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Posted - 2003.12.05 22:02:00 -
[33]
 Quote:
[OC] Korath > basicly we refused to give up those 2 systems
this and statements like this are the key to that entire 5 hour convo. Yes they had legitimate claims and reasons for not giving them up. But alliances are about compromising and working together for the greater good. They quote obviously REFUSED that and the rest of the alliance made a choice not to tolerate it. Nobody will deny they had legitamet claims. It's a fact that it was a disagreement that couldn't be solved without brute force.
Civil Deity
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Lliad
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Posted - 2003.12.05 22:12:00 -
[34]
Quote:
Edited by: Civil Deity on 05/12/2003 18:57:42
you failed to report that omega corp suggested we stay out of each others area.
next he claimed my area was unfair. He then wanted to scout it out. I said sure agree to an equal distribution you can come look at my area all you want. But at the time they were in a limbo state cause we didnt know what they were going to do. I did not want them in my area to create book marks or anything else to prepare for war. He then suggested that we go under escort. Normally this would have been fine, but why should i agree to waste time when I knew for certain he would never agree to a trade after seeing how mined out the systems were (not by EV). I said if he felt it was unequal i would be more than happy ot let any other council member scout out the systems or specter could do it himself after he agreed to equality and after he agreed and wanted to trade i would even trade him for his new equal state. He still did nothing. Basically what you are reading in reguards to that situation is a desperate attempt to make me look bad, but you'll see i have support from all of my fellow council members that them scouting my systems before agreeing to equality wasn't necessary.
i wasnt refering to the circumstances or who is right or wrong.
Its just the fact that you said MY. As in the belts belong personaly to you and not to the corp. Where as omega said OUR land ect.
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Civil Deity
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Posted - 2003.12.05 22:14:00 -
[35]
good observaion then. I speak for EV and so when I say I, I assumed it was interpreted as Everlasting Vendetta. But thank you for pointing out a mistake in my mannerisms, I will aim to correct that in the future.
Civil Deity
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Heine Shaver
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Posted - 2003.12.05 22:20:00 -
[36]
Bistot Fields that close to stations. Time for the BB to do some double mwd mining and cruise missle blanket some indy's.
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Shiwan Khan
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Posted - 2003.12.05 22:30:00 -
[37]
I personally think OC did the right thing. When i think of this my messed up brain relates it to the American Civil War. OC (America) claimed their land and fought off whoever they were at war with and won, thus claiming their rightful land. After a long time of fighting for SA, EV decides they wanna be asses about it and "try" to make a suitable middleground for everyone. This includes OC giving up systems that they fought very hard for. (this would be like USA giving up to Great Britian because we had something the rest of the world doesnt. We fought for it and it should be ours.) This is the same thing that EV is doing to OC. EV is trying to kick them out of the systems they EARNED! That is not right.... Anyway that is just the way my brain thinks and this post probably wont make any sense but....oh well. On a side note i think it is very funny that in the chat logs EV suggests OC leaving SA without even trying to negotiate. LOL. This to me seems to suggest that they were always wanting to go to war and just trying to pick the time and place to do so. This seems to prove the "trechery" part of OC's reasons for fighting. Again I say Good luck to you OC. Hope you give those backstabbing EV asses what they deserve.
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Civil Deity
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Posted - 2003.12.05 22:39:00 -
[38]
thank you for your obvervations.
Trying to negotiate was not included in those logs. We had numerous teamspeak conversations and other days of arguing this issue over and over and over. This was the final breaking point. As for EV suggesting they leave stain. Not sure exactly what you were talking about but im pretty sure that was after my own breaking point in that day, which if that the case i've already apologized for rash things i've said as it was out of line.
As for Omega Corps seniority, most of the people who helped earn that seniority left OC because they didnt want to deal with duke anymore. Hence the creation of Redemption. I would say 75% (rough estimate) of OC didnt even fight for the cause. Plus the reason they had so much territory is because they pushed anybody who ever tried to come in out. Over time, Solar wind, golden triad and more were pushed out of the way, even with legitamacy to the area.
Its just that a barking dog over time who gets his way for soo long will eventually feel that their ways are right and true. But honestly there was a lot of devious things going on for a LONG time, it finally cought up with them and then, because it went un said for so long they were a little surprised by our reaction.
I guess to put it best in terms of an analogy is a dominate personality in a friendship can push and push and push the recessive party for years. But one day that recessive friend is gonna get tired of it, even without saying anything for years, and say no screw you i'm not gonna be treated that way anymore.
Anyways i'm rambling, but there is a LOT of history in wrong doings and a lot more than just this 1 incident that led up to it. Which EV can fess up to a little, they honestly feel that we wronged them 3 times mining in their area out of spite which all 3 times it was an honest mistake. But hey what can ya do whats done is done, thank you for your observations but one comment when you referred to OC being like the USA giving up great britan? Didn't understand that part cause USA never held GB as their own :)
Civil Deity
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Tenashi
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Posted - 2003.12.05 22:44:00 -
[39]
u keep up ranting every where besides here
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Blink
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Posted - 2003.12.05 22:59:00 -
[40]
Quote:
Are you guys that desperate to have to dig that deep and look THAT far into it. I guess it really doesnt matter cause whats done is done but that "theory" made me laugh.
Human Nature = Blame can never rest on yourself, even when you're cought banging on the bathroom floor "it wasn't me"
guess you're just proving that.
So your'e saying since I cought you and Mac banging on the bathroom floor your saying "it wasn't you" -I kid I kid.
Ah. I see. So it was just mac with question of OC belts (not any others). But why ask that question about OC and not any other corp?
If it was supposed to be special circumstances you shouldn't have said anything but you did. Why? Was mac just leading you along and the guilt of concealing your previous agreement for systems in question just to much for you and you had to confess? The whole section there is such an obvious lead in for you to spill the beans. If you're as objective as you claim you can certianly see it in the text can you not?
The "d*nm, let me handle your pr..." (something like that I dont feel like cutting and pasting right now) comment is a clincher- you drove the issue to the center stage by making it very clear a major discloser had been made that should nt have been made.
And who's there to pick up the ball? Well everyone there would have to be frickin stoned not to start asking questions with impetus that something wrong had been done.
If you didn't contrive it, well, too bad cause it sure is a nice peice of dialog that lets you spill the beans sooooo easily. I would have at least given you a mark for excellent politcal maneuvering. Oh well I quess it was just dumb luck eh?. I apologize for accusing you of setting it up if you indeed did not.
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Blink
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Posted - 2003.12.05 23:16:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Blink on 05/12/2003 23:41:31
Quote:
Edited by: Napalm SW on 05/12/2003 20:46:11
Quote:
Yes Napalm but the only reason SW was got down here in the first place was because we invited you, even then it took a good amount of convincing to get you guys to make the move.
I never said that you did not invite us.... I thank OC for the invitation to stain Way back in the beginning of Eve.
The thing I do not like is that Spectar would like to make comments to his members such as ... we had to drag SolarWind out to stain.... We had to spoon feed SolarWind to move to stain..... We had to convince SolarWind to come to Stain..... We Carried their Asses So Much in Beta....
Get over yourselfs.
Whe Stain First opened up, we knew nothing about it, we first sent out scouts after you invitation was made. Once things looked good, Our High Command Decided it was a good Idea to move, so we packed up everything and moved out. We did this all several days after you were already out there.
Again I thank OC for asking us to go to Stain, But I do not thank you for the back handed comments in doing so. As will We are not fans of the Back Stabbing plot to go against the SA. If I did not hear it I would not belive that you would turn against us.
So Please do not try and make it as thou I owe you and I should be On your side. You Made your bed, and you then manage to **** in it.
O come on Napalm, a guy cant rant a bit after all that **** went down with you and ev at center stage? Please, if what had happened to Specter had happened to you, you would be ****ed and saying stuff like that too. This was in ts not a forum post -get some perspective. OC did have to persuade you guys down to stain, we gave a whole constallation to have as your own and then you pull that ****? You woundn't be mad? Woundn't say any thing? Get real.
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Shiwan Khan
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Posted - 2003.12.05 23:16:00 -
[42]
you missed a little word "to" in there. guess you read it too fast.
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Civil Deity
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Posted - 2003.12.05 23:45:00 -
[43]
blink, it may look as if i did "spill the beans" a little too quickly. But korath said straight out we REFUSED to give those two systems up. Immediately i had 6 convo's open up with me saying WTF. So obviously i was in a position where I had to tell the truth.
My comment about letting me handle your PR was because trigger and i were going to try to pass it off as they deserved it and go from there. We then realized it was a mistake to betray the rest of the alliance and they had a right to know what was going on. Because korath said the word refused, there was no way i could even begin to cover that up.
Lastly the reason solar wind was specifically questioning omega's systems because there has been an on going dispute over who gets ot-lib as their HQ system (part of the reason thaleen mort took off). He noticed i gave it to omega corp rather than him, so since the map was supposed to be equal he started to ask questions about it because he knew that it wasn't equal. Then after the convo's opened up i had to "spill the beans"
Thanks for bringing to my attention that the fact of 6 convo's being opened with me hadn't been mentioend yet as i think it's prudent to the storyline.
Civil Deity
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Solwolf
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Posted - 2003.12.06 00:04:00 -
[44]
Quote:
I appreciate you taking the time to post this. I haven't been to Stain very many times, but I always wondered what was going on. Now, through reading your post on the transcript, I can see a little of what is happening.
I respectfully request that the Stain Alliance put the two thieves Agent Shield and Parthon on their kill on sight lists. They were members of our corporation and stole everything from our hangers. Certainly the Stain Alliance would not allow these scum into their territory.
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Civil Deity
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Posted - 2003.12.06 00:28:00 -
[45]
thanks for bringing this to our attention solo.
We've taken a note 
Civil Deity
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Blink
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Posted - 2003.12.06 00:31:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Blink on 06/12/2003 00:36:43
Quote:
blink, it may look as if i did "spill the beans" a little too quickly. But korath said straight out we REFUSED to give those two systems up. Immediately i had 6 convo's open up with me saying WTF. So obviously i was in a position where I had to tell the truth.
My comment about letting me handle your PR was because trigger and i were going to try to pass it off as they deserved it and go from there. We then realized it was a mistake to betray the rest of the alliance and they had a right to know what was going on. Because korath said the word refused, there was no way i could even begin to cover that up.
Lastly the reason solar wind was specifically questioning omega's systems because there has been an on going dispute over who gets ot-lib as their HQ system (part of the reason thaleen mort took off). He noticed i gave it to omega corp rather than him, so since the map was supposed to be equal he started to ask questions about it because he knew that it wasn't equal. Then after the convo's opened up i had to "spill the beans"
Thanks for bringing to my attention that the fact of 6 convo's being opened with me hadn't been mentioend yet as i think it's prudent to the storyline.
All you had to say was a consesson was made among senior SA members.
As for the convos, without proof for review you know as well as I they might as well not exist. The other SA council doesn't seem to want to say anything and they would have to chime in saying they did indeed convo you. That chat log is a disgrace to diplomacy- is it always like that in there?
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mooman
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Posted - 2003.12.06 23:56:00 -
[47]
at last some truth for once ;)
thnx for the posting of the log it shows how full of cr*p omega are
i cant wait to see their ships burn in hell for lying to the public like this and treating us like fools >:(
pitty i wont be anywhere to be able to see the fireworks :(
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Crimsonjade
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Posted - 2003.12.07 03:51:00 -
[48]
Quote:
That chat log is a disgrace to diplomacy- is it always like that in there?
You are a disgrace to objective thought. Yes, you can quote Civil's responses to you and refute, but do you actually read them? No you looked primarily for something that you could disagree with. You should definately READ more than you post.
No pain, no palm; no thorns, no throne; no gall, no glory; no cross, no crown.
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TornSoul
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Posted - 2003.12.07 06:39:00 -
[49]
I have actually read the whole damn log.
The facts about systems, it's impossible for me to check, so can't comment on the fairness (or not) of the distribution of system/belts/stations.
Two things that strikes me.
It does indeed seem as OC (as OC claims several times) is beeing 'bullied' (for a lack of a better word) by the rest of SA.
Everyone taking part in the convo (not all SA corps present) seems to be on OC's case.
Dont know why, dont care. Just stating the fact.
Also, and this honestly surprices and disappoints me (Droklar and I go way back, although we havent had much contact lately), OC does seem to be doing a Ragnar....
Not agreeing to a council ruling, as they feel they 'deserve more'.
I totally understand their reasons for this, and why they are 'upset' (I'd be thinking 'this s.ucks' as well), but it simply has no place in a democracy....
It's a b.itch, but thats how democracy works.
I'm sorry Droklar...
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Skillz
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Posted - 2003.12.07 07:39:00 -
[50]
So can't someone post the stain charter? Let's see it says 're-districting'. By the way, democracy is ebil.
Keep on flaming, lamers.
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Duke Droklar
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Posted - 2003.12.07 09:08:00 -
[51]
Quote:
As for Omega Corps seniority, most of the people who helped earn that seniority left OC because they didnt want to deal with duke anymore. -[EV]Civ
Another example of Civils great peoples skills.  As with any corp many left the game, were kicked, quit for various reasons including not agreeing with the way i run OC but thats the beauty of having so many corps in Eve. Dont like something move on. 
Quote:
Hence the creation of Redemption. -[EV Civ
The break up with redemption was over many issues dealing with lack of military participation and how much rares they mined without corp contribution. However we parted as old friends and many of those ties are still intact regardless of current circumstances. Don't speak of what you do not know... try it sometime.
Quote:
I would say 75% (rough estimate) of OC didnt even fight for the cause. -[EV]Civ
Well since we've been fighting non stop wars for SA, every member has earned it far more than the corps that do nothing but mine and whine. Heard of that war in Curse? oh wait... maybe not.
Quote:
Plus the reason they had so much territory is because they pushed anybody who ever tried to come in out. Over time, Solar wind, golden triad and more were pushed out of the way, even with legitamacy to the area.
Do you have any facts on this or do you pull things from the air? GT was roughly a 3 man corp which we shared the area with until their corp collapsed. How is that pushing them out? Oh yeah, that was one of the excuses EV used to illegally mine our area. "EV= we absorbed a couple members of GT so that gives us the right to strip mine your territory". their 3rd attempt to get their hands on our homeland.
We GAVE SW one of our 3 constellations and when they eventually said we're out of bistot we GAVE them 3 more systems of bist in our remaining 2 constellations.
Quote:
But honestly there was a lot of devious things going on for a LONG time, it finally cought up with them and then, because it went un said for so long they were a little surprised by our reaction. -[EV]Civ
Honestly? Excuse me if I laugh.  Regardless of what you have on your recordings those are form after the alliance not only stabbed us in the back but shadow corps were attacking us from before and one day following the deadline issuing. One was from SW and the source of the other I believe is quite obvious. Do NOT cry "traitor" when someone begins to use the same methods against you.
Quote:
Anyways i'm rambling, but there is a LOT of history in wrong doings and a lot more than just this 1 incident that led up to it. [EV]Civ
Oh really? I challenge you to back that up with even one incident prior to the SA giving us the ultimatum to bend over or get out. Just one will suffice.
Quote:
blink, it may look as if i did "spill the beans" a little too quickly. But korath said straight out we REFUSED to give those two systems up. Immediately i had 6 convo's open up with me saying WTF. So obviously i was in a position where I had to tell the truth. -[EV]Civ
WTF? I told the entire council FOR MONTHS that we wouldnt give up those two systems. Then YOU take it upon yourself to try and decieve the council without us even knowing that you were trying that. That is WHY Korath said it in the open. I think this clearly shows the difference between us.
Tornsoul [BIG]: Good to see you, hope you're well. Your opinion is yours and you have the right to speak it however i obviously disagree. SA was never a democracy. it was run by the founders until a buch of snall corps with varying levels of "commitment" were ramrodded into it. Then THEY all decided to form a democracy with a simple rule of 1 corp 1 vote. Of course they wouldn't want to give credit to previous effort in building and defending the alliance because they had no investment. Of course they wouldnt want to base it on voting power based on anything like contribution into the alliance because the majority simply weren't capable or willing to commit what it takes to defend or do offense for an alliance. So where do they get the right to equal territory TAKEN from a corp that helped build that alliance before they even heard of Stain? Heard of the USA democracy? Is it based on 1 state = 1 vote?... no. The states have different levels of voting powers.
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Enraku Reynolt
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Posted - 2003.12.07 09:13:00 -
[52]
Is it based on 1 state = 1 vote?... no. The states have different levels of voting powers.
Electoral Collage
and people complain about that too
due for it in 11 monthes
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Do not let the world change you.
Change the world
Here's everything I know about war: somebody wins, somebody loses, and nothing is ever the sa |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.12.07 10:34:00 -
[53]
Greed this is all about:
Stain wanted to rob Omega blind of 18 solarsystems, step by step and look what it got them. One of their mayor corporations turned against them.
In a democracy there is something called "The army", you can compare Omega to this: They killed your enemies, fought your wars.
Every warmachine needs an income, most countries therefor give alot of resources to their warmachines.
Stain council was only busy with taking and taking, while their effort was not enough to make such a claim. Were talking about 50-70 systems you guys controll.. You can't tell me that those 16 omega gave you allready weren't enough.
If i was omega i wouldnt even let 16 systems go, but maybe 10 or so.. They "made" the alliance from the very beginning, they have alot of members and alot of effort they took to keep and make stain a safe place for Stainers.
If that isnt worth some systems for Stain, what will be? Vollunteering Omega pilots in velators killing your enemies? Get real.
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Duke Droklar
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Posted - 2003.12.07 10:53:00 -
[54]
Heh, that reminded me of something...
After several of the SA corps including EV complained about "massive losses" to CA Omega Corp made an offer to the SA Council.
We offered to fight 100% of our time in Curse if they would simply contribute some ships, gear, or whatever they could spare and thought was fair to Omega Corp to enable us to do this without ALL the cost being born by us.
We figured if their claims of many BS per week being lost were accurate then why not contribute 1 BS per week and have it put to use more effectively than they were obviously capable of doing BY THEIR OWN CLAIMS. If they were in fact telling the truth and not just trying to bolster the Councils perception that these corps were actually fighting than would it not make financial good sense?
No, they did not accept this idea either. Much cheaper to CLAIM that you're fighting than to fight or to contribute to the costs of war of those who are fighting your war.
Of course they sure thought they deserved a slice of OC territory after the rest of stain had been stripped and they eyeballed the OC territory which had prudently been managed by slow trickle mining so as not to deplete it's resources.
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TornSoul
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Posted - 2003.12.07 11:04:00 -
[55]
Quote:
Tornsoul [BIG]: Good to see you, hope you're well. Your opinion is yours and you have the right to speak it however i obviously disagree.
Obviously 
Quote:
Then THEY all decided to form a democracy with a simple rule of 1 corp 1 vote.
Bad mojo. Sure recipe for disaster.
Oh wait... You all already found out
Whatever the outcome, I envy both sides of the conflict the comming weeks of fun
Have a good one guys
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Jebba IV
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Posted - 2003.12.07 11:34:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Jebba IV on 07/12/2003 11:54:13
nvm ;/
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Macky
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Posted - 2003.12.07 13:00:00 -
[57]
theres alot of talk of bistot field equality but what about equality of responsibillity? you get your equal share of bistot but are doing your share of the workload?
the demand of bistot equality from some of these corps is akin to a new join in corp demanding a battleship the corp is handing out just because his a member. would any corp grant the new member a battleship? i think not...
so why would an alliance dish out equal share of the bistot? and dont think altruistic corps like MASS agreed to equal share makes some of these corps demand for equality just.
[EV] Civil Deity > "the council voted for eqaulity." if you look at it carefully, this arguement is very much flawed.
the map should have been redrawn in a FAIR manner.
i feel for you omega but i still gotta blow you guys up when i see you since im on the other side. but if any EV guys ask for help guess who wont come running.
and the first person to post the word of what i think some of these corps are, gets 5 mils from me.
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Centuri
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Posted - 2003.12.07 13:17:00 -
[58]
Exactly Macky. Of course these newer corps will vote to extract land from OC, they have nothing to loose and everything to gain.
EV started in Stain poaching land from OC, now they're still trying to do it.
I just can't wait till the rest of Eve sees that "proposed" map drawn up by Civil of EV. It's an absolute joke! Lol, I don't know how any corp could agree to it. I would post it, but it's not my place to do so.
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Deathlok
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Posted - 2003.12.07 14:03:00 -
[59]
Actually I think you all are "chasing your tails" on this one.
1) - OC has the majority of the Bistot it would appear from everyones posts OC included.
2) - Bistot is currently the most valuable mineral in the game.
3) - Therefore OC SHOULD HAVE THE MAJORITY of the Bistot WEALTH in Stain.
Equality- ?
Dare we consider that the richest Bistot Stain Member claims they were doing the most defending of Stain, had THE MOST TO LOSE, and THE MOST BISTOT money to DEFEND with?
I'm sorry but as a bystander it would seem OC wants to have their cake, and eat it too.
It would be interesting to know what the remapping of Stain and spreading of the bistot WEALTH would do. Perhaps had OC stayed they would have felt much less the workhorse as other corps mentioned here would have had more assets to fight with.
Call me a simpleton, but thats how I read it. I do seem to note that most of the dialogue here seems centered around EV and OC. Having been in this game quite awhile, I find it interesting how some of the other Old Stain corps like MASS, Galactic Foreign Legion, Storm Guard, and Old Farts seem to be missing from this ongoing forum debate.
I'd love to hear their side. Anyone got any info from them?
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dalman
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Posted - 2003.12.07 14:23:00 -
[60]
Quote:
Call me a simpleton, but thats how I read it. I do seem to note that most of the dialogue here seems centered around EV and OC. Having been in this game quite awhile, I find it interesting how some of the other Old Stain corps like MASS, Galactic Foreign Legion, Storm Guard, and Old Farts seem to be missing from this ongoing forum debate.
I'd love to hear their side. Anyone got any info from them?
Here you go:
Posted by TRIGGER - 04/12/2003 21:46:00
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"This will be the only response from MASS.
We follow strictly to the council's decision and we will, if required , enforce the decision."
Posted by GFLTorque - 05/12/2003 23:49:00
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"This will be the only response from GFL.
We follow strictly to the council's decision and we will, if required , enforce the decision."
Posted by Archon Stormrage - 06/12/2003 00:03:00
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"This will be the response from Redemption Inc.
We follow strictly to the council's decision and we will, if required , enforce the decision and will continue our defense of Stain from CA at the same time."
Won't be more than that to read
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
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