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TomB	Posted - 2003.12.06 00:59:00 - [1] Afterburners and Microwarpdrives currently use given mass as factor for the speed boost. Minmatar ships which are the lightest will benefit most of Afterburners and Microwarpdrives, which was planned as Minmatar based modules by design. Bigger ships will now require the bigger version of these modules in order to receive similar speed boost, they of course have higher fitting requirements and capacitor usage. They will with time get tuned until these changes will be released on Tranquility. The Microwarpdrive now also has 10 second duration as the afterburner modules. The standard "Afterburner I" and "Microwarpdrive I" have been renamed to "MegaNewton Afterburner I" and "MegaNewton Microwarpdrive I", also available on Chaos are now: "10 MegaNewton Afterburner I" "10 MegaNewton Microwarpdrive I" "100 MegaNewton Afterburner I" "100 MegaNewton Microwarpdrive I" Changes to Mass: Frigates, cruisers, industrials and battleship classes have been tuned in mass to fit into these categories. The agility stays the same on the ships compaired to what is currently on Tranquility, the mass has only been increased in order to enable us the tuning part. Changes to Industrials: Industrials have been given more power so that they can be fitted with 10 MegaNewton Afterburners and it's also possible to fit 10 MegaNewton Microwarpdrives on the high end Industrials but it will require extra ordinary high engineering skill and reactor control units. Here are the current stats: (changes will get updated here) MegaNewton Afterburner I Mass Factor: 1.000.000 Kg Power: 8 CPU: 15 Capacitor: 15 MegaNewton Microwarpdrive I Mass Factor: 1.000.000 Kg Power: 15 CPU: 25 Capacitor: 45 10 MegaNewton Afterburner I Mass Factor: 10.000.000 Kg Power: 50 CPU: 25 Capacitor: 85 10 MegaNewton Microwarpdrive I Mass Factor: 10.000.000 Kg Power: 150 CPU: 50 Capacitor: 180 100 MegaNewton Afterburner I Mass Factor: 100.000.000 Kg Power: 500 CPU: 50 Capacitor: 350 100 MegaNewton Microwarpdrive I Mass Factor: 100.000.000 Kg Power: 1250 CPU: 75 Capacitor: 720 It's now testable on the Test Server (Chaos) so feel free to give your comment on the tuning part and post any bugs that you might find. Bugs might be that some ships are not as agile or that the capacitor need for warping is out of synch (capacitor usage for warping is based on distance and on mass of ship, although it differs a little bit between the races). ADDON The speed boost maintained by MWD can be very damaging for game play and for the physics engine in EVE. Players are able to keep a MWD going none stop with leet fitting skills, it's not the biggest problem as I don't want to damage the travelling capabilites, but players should not be able to escape stasis webifier modules easily ... there for I'm looking into reducing the speed boost for using MWD but instead reducing the shield penality to 25%. Normal MWD: 500% speed boost Best Rare Drop MWD: 525% speed boost I have also changed 2 of the least frequent rare drop AB and MWD to being medium and large so that your high priced afterburner/MWD you just bought isn't a frigate module as you wanted to use it on your cruiser/battleship. "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.06 01:08:00 - [2] added: "The Microwarpdrive now also has 10 second duration as the afterburner modules." "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.06 01:13:00 - [3] Quote: OMG TOMB...YOU JUST KILLED ALL PVP!!!!!! (just wanted to be the first to say that in one of your threads, TomB) "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.06 01:44:00 - [4] Quote: Edited by: VegetaStuck on 06/12/2003 01:35:09 I like these changes, i got a question however. If i fit one mwd on say a scorpion? What will my speed be? Also did you fix the bug where if you activate 2 or more mwd's at once you go insanely fast? It's not a bug really , but the tuning part will limit ships from using many MWD's, high fitting requirement but mostly high capacitor usage, you won't be able to keep a MWD running for a long time. "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.06 03:00:00 - [5] Feedback wanted: Would want to know max speed possible with frigates, cruisers, industrials and battleships, and for how long. All kinds of feedback as well, if you are able to keep MWD going for a long time for example. TomB fears player leet fitting skills "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.06 03:43:00 - [6] Quote: The orbit function needs to approach the orbiting perimeter at a tangent to avoid the dreaded "bounce" when it is trying to establish an orbit. Right now using the auto orbit will get you killed if you are counting on being able to evade gunfire to survive. Frigates will be a pain to orbit with manually at the speeds they can attain now. Fixing the auto orbit would defiantly be appreciated. No ship is suposed to be using the MWD while orbiting objects (ships just aint agile enough for it), it's an escape or boost-into-another-range module. If you get into close combat with a frigate, turn the module off, since you want to be in close combat you will have to survive there with out the module - which is of course possible if the ship is class above yours with no turrets to shoot at you, if the ship has such guns, smart bomb or other counter-attacks, then all you can do is MWD yourself out of there and stop pestering the ship "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.06 14:54:00 - [7] Quote: BTW: Since you are fiddeling with mass/speed issues - wouldn't it be a splendid opportunity to finally fix the agi boni of hull mods? We can soon celebrate the 4 month aniversaty for module agi boni broken.quote] Ya, I'll do my best in fixing them, they will get slight changes "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.07 03:43:00 - [8] Quote: edit: oh yeah, those are set up with the cap recharge/usability on mind.... for the pure speed setups, guess i'll wait before the problems with ship mass are fixed... What's the problem with mass? "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.07 04:16:00 - [9] Quote: First up spaceship command and evasive manouvering both list 5% agility in there attributes .. the results I'm seeing between inactive (skillless) mass (IAM from here on) and active mass (AM from here on) seem to support the theory that they do this by lowering mass by 5%/level, however while which of the two is applied (and in fact both or neither) seems to vary by ship, wether its positive or negative seems to mostly go by race (all caldari seem to have it working backwards) it also seems to round/calculate slightly I have command 4 and evasive 4 .. so both would be a 20% or together an 40% Active Mass is the only mass the is used, the "Inactive Mass" is just a bug in the system which is not used anymore and should not be displayed anywhere. About evasive manuevering and space ship command, they give bonus to the agility which is not diaplyed in the client currently (mass * agility = inertia). I'm working on merge for these two for easier understanding to be displayed in the client. "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.07 04:26:00 - [10] I see the problem, the "Inactive Mass" is displayed in the client and not the "Active Mass" I'll get that fixed asap "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.07 17:58:00 - [11] The speed boost maintained by MWD can be very damaging for game play and for the physics engine in EVE. Players are able to keep a MWD going none stop with leet fitting skills, it's not the biggest problem as I don't want to damage the travelling capabilites, but players should not be able to escape stasis webifier modules easily ... there for I'm looking into reducing the speed boost for using MWD but instead reducing the shield penality to 25%. Normal MWD: 450% speed boost Best Rare Drop MWD: 500% speed boost I will also change 2 of the least frequent rare drop AB and MWD to being medium and large. Thoughts? "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.07 22:11:00 - [12] Quote: * People are able to reach too fast the jump gate and jump, before people guarding/camping the gate are able to activate the webifiers and slow them down. We are still making changes to the gate jumping, expect them to land on Chaos tomorrow (hopefully) - we will detail them when they are testable. Quote: * People are able to gain enough speed to break out of warp scramblers range, before those who try to catch them can put enough webifiers on their target to slow it down and keep within the warp scrambling range. The changes with 450% for MWD lessesn the changes of a ship getting out warp scramble range and webifiers work much better on them as well, Frigates will have much more change though, so webifiying a MWD frigate will require 2 webifiers or a frigate with MWD with stasis or sumthing... Quote: It means with activated stack of MWD/AFB the top speed of the ship reaches ridiculous values, which in turn results in ridiculously fast acceleration. Allowing the ship to gain speed very fast, and quickly cover the distance nedded for jump/warp out. Mutliple MWD should be impossible to run for any ship for a long period and never wise to take with into combat situations, this needs testing and feedback from players testing on Chaos is wanted big time. Quote: Solution: make the acceleration ship class specific, constant, and not affected by the ship's top speed. I.e.: * frigate speed cannot grow by more than 40 m/s in one second * cruiser speed cannot grow by more than 20 m/s in one second * battleship speed cannot grow by more than 10 m/s in one second. This is not possible, the inertia (mass * agility) and the max velocity tells the ship how fast it accelerates, i.e. it always takes a ship as long to get to 1/2 speed for example, if it's 200 or if it's 600. Removing this would mean that MWD boosting for close combat battleships would be the end which I know is not desirable. "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.07 23:06:00 - [13] Quote: With a typhoon I travelled 350km with 2 MWDs in 20 secs (around 700km till I slowed down), 2500 km with 3 MWDs in 10 secs. Did you do this with 2X 450% speed boosting MWD, or a 700% one? 100 MegaNewton MicroWarpdrive I only boosts 450% now on Chaos. "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.08 00:19:00 - [14] Quote: Ana already said it, but the problem with multiple MWD running isn't that they can be ran for long (because they can't) The problem is they provide too huge acceleration in short time needed to get to gate or out of warp scrambling range. Although the smaller acceleration and higher fitting requirements on them now might help. I'll try to test later today. How does the current 450% speed boost seem like? "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.08 02:58:00 - [15] Jump range reduced to 2,5 KM - so approaching stargate from 20 KM takes 17,5 KM to travel to jump. How ever we will try to take away warp disruption field in Empire Space to reduce the travelling time. I have been doing various tests with people running blockades and runners, using various ships and setups, solo camping is very hard how ever unless the player is ultimatily set up with sensor boosters, MWD, stasis and scrambler. Blockades of few people surrounding a stargate at X distance takes more thinking than before of course, cruisers and frigates were superb in camp team to stop runners coming from stargate and going for stargate. If possible, try to test blockade scenarios, runners, and also counter-attacks from pirate hunters. Specially with the reduced speed boost of the MWD vs. the reduced penality on shield All feedback is wanted "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.08 09:36:00 - [16] Quote: Thing is, with these requirements and questionable benefits the close range battleship combat will be kinda hard to pull off. So will be trying to close the distance to enemy who decides to warp in at long range for that matter. Close range battleships will have much more ease to keep enemy in their desired range with stasis if they manage to get into 10KM, getting there has always been a problem. Quote: The running requirements for afterburner seem awfully high on the battleship -- they give very little benefit (at least on Scorpion) and suck capacitor like crazy... meanwhile the frigates can run multiple afterburners forever? Am afraid it'll make battleship AFB's join the vampire modules and the damage control modules on their dusted shelf. Working on getting vampire modules better and prolly going to change damage control modules. Quote: ... Especially since they now give 25% penalty to shield just like MWD o.O; (the 100 MegaNewton AFB) Bug, fixed, chaos will get updated later today Quote: Kestrel with 3 AFB's: velocity 1101.66 m/sec Kestrel with 1 MWD: velocity 1101.67 m/sec ... both can run forever. Not much reason to settle for MWD with Caldari frigate, non?.. (can't use the remaining slots because the grid is all used up with MWD) I believe that 0.01 m/sec could save your live one good day, non?.. Bug found in the system, fixed, chaos will get updated later today (Kestrel was using the "Inactive Mass" when using AB for a weird reason). "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.08 09:39:00 - [17] Quote: 450% boosts means more cap for less speed / distance traveled. Cap is going faster even with conservative loadouts. Grid Requirements mean even more fragile loadouts than what was used previously. MWD were hurting combat and causing lots imbalance and even bugs "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.08 11:54:00 - [18] Quote: Kestrel with 3 AFB's: velocity 1101.66 m/sec Kestrel with 1 MWD: velocity 1101.67 m/sec ... both can run forever. Not much reason to settle for MWD with Caldari frigate, non?.. (can't use the remaining slots because the grid is all used up with MWD) Also MWD still uses less than 3x AB: MegaNewton Afterburner I Mass Factor: 1.000.000 Kg Power: 8 x 3 = 24 CPU: 15 x 3 = 45 Capacitor: 15 x 2 = 45 MegaNewton Microwarpdrive I Mass Factor: 1.000.000 Kg Power: 15 CPU: 25 Capacitor: 45 "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.08 22:55:00 - [19] Quote: Indeed =) keep on mind though, 'tis good for short speed burst. If i want sustained MWD on Kestrel so it's fully comparable to set of AFB's, i need to fit the following: I don't want you sustaining a MWD on any ship for combat activities "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.08 23:00:00 - [20] Close combat vs. MWD: These changes are needed and I have already given you the reason. It might get harder to approuch other ships in a battleship with a MWD, but if you get there how ever and activate a stasis web, your pray won't be running away with his MWD. This both creates better balance for the MWD vs. stasis - if close combat just dies because 450% max speed isn't fast enough to get into close range - then close range will get less close range with tuning. The speed of the MWD's on Tranquility simply can not be allowed, if there comes imbalance from these changes we will adress them and fix. Another note: we are still trying to fix the insane blow back of missiles, battleships are not suposed to be slowed down much from missile impact, still a little, but nothing that a MWD won't sustain. "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.08 23:11:00 - [21] Quote: someone mentioned that it would be hard to limit MWDs or ABs to a certain number... well, there is already code in the game to do exactly this... number of turrets, number of launchers... just add per ship a number of MWD and number of ABs and you can tweak it to your hearts content. The reason for number of turret slots is mostly because the graphic models don't support more, but also because of race balance - launcher slots is purely race balance. I have already tweaked MWD and AB to be race specific, i.e. Minmatar ships have always been tuned lighter than other ships. I am personally against strict limits on how many modules can be fitted or some ships can't have some besides CPU/power usage of "class sized modules", it would just remove the beauty of players able to spend time in finding secret combinations. Quote: Also TomB, if you reduce jump distance to 2.5km, please keep in mind the problems we had last time that number was changed... gates that you can't get close enough to to jump, bouncing off gates without jumping, AP unable to jump in time before you're out of the distance again... just a few things to keep in mind. This should not be a problem, AP is currently broke on Chaos how ever should be fixed very soon "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.10 01:18:00 - [22] Quote: Wow, didn't realize how bad this is. TomB, please fix. Combat frigates really NEED to be able to fly 2km/s (with an MWD) or they're just cruise missile fodder. They are cruise missile fodder currently, how ever it takes a long time to target them for cruisers/battleships. And don't forget that new frigs will be coming in the patch and new tech as well. Quote: Plus, the Probe is a mining frigate, and it's faster than almost any non-Minnie frig in the game? That's silly. The Probe has always had 5% speed bonus per Minmatar Frigate skill level, the base speed for Probe is 270. "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.13 01:06:00 - [23] Mass of all ships (but base typhoon, slasher & stabber) have been decreased, alo. The speed nerf was a bit dramatic, although these changes won't help super duper much they should atleast ease on it a little. Example: Kestrel Before: 2.395.000 kg Kestrel After: 1.700.000 kg Note: Show info on "Inactive" ships is still broken on Chaos but fixed in next patch. Boosters Boosted: AB I now boosts 35% (was 25%) MWD I now boosts 500% (was 450%) Check it, reply & comment. PS: my dream is as soon as possible to support in-space fitting, making it possible for players to fit their ships for 100% speed and then unfitting them and fit others before going to battle (if they know where they will be fighting) - such changes would not be hard but could be exploitable, so until Castor patch this is still just my mouth talking and no ETA for such a thing "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.13 01:38:00 - [24] Quote: TomB, you were able to switch your gear in space in Earth and Beyond and it was very nice. It took like a minute or a minute and half to do it which was not bad. Certain devices made it faster, and I think there may have been skills. You could make it take 3 minutes to do it, so you could not instantly switch to EM/Thermal hardeners if you are fighting only laser users. Maybe you are thinking of exploits beyond changing gear to immediately match the combat situations tho. That as exploit I'm not thinking about, that would rather be the tuning part of maybe making it possible if the player can last for X time with full defence set up. The exploits would be possibility of stacking effects byt fitting/unfitting or something in that line. "Where is my hat?"

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