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TomB	Posted - 2003.12.06 00:59:00 - [1] Afterburners and Microwarpdrives currently use given mass as factor for the speed boost. Minmatar ships which are the lightest will benefit most of Afterburners and Microwarpdrives, which was planned as Minmatar based modules by design. Bigger ships will now require the bigger version of these modules in order to receive similar speed boost, they of course have higher fitting requirements and capacitor usage. They will with time get tuned until these changes will be released on Tranquility. The Microwarpdrive now also has 10 second duration as the afterburner modules. The standard "Afterburner I" and "Microwarpdrive I" have been renamed to "MegaNewton Afterburner I" and "MegaNewton Microwarpdrive I", also available on Chaos are now: "10 MegaNewton Afterburner I" "10 MegaNewton Microwarpdrive I" "100 MegaNewton Afterburner I" "100 MegaNewton Microwarpdrive I" Changes to Mass: Frigates, cruisers, industrials and battleship classes have been tuned in mass to fit into these categories. The agility stays the same on the ships compaired to what is currently on Tranquility, the mass has only been increased in order to enable us the tuning part. Changes to Industrials: Industrials have been given more power so that they can be fitted with 10 MegaNewton Afterburners and it's also possible to fit 10 MegaNewton Microwarpdrives on the high end Industrials but it will require extra ordinary high engineering skill and reactor control units. Here are the current stats: (changes will get updated here) MegaNewton Afterburner I Mass Factor: 1.000.000 Kg Power: 8 CPU: 15 Capacitor: 15 MegaNewton Microwarpdrive I Mass Factor: 1.000.000 Kg Power: 15 CPU: 25 Capacitor: 45 10 MegaNewton Afterburner I Mass Factor: 10.000.000 Kg Power: 50 CPU: 25 Capacitor: 85 10 MegaNewton Microwarpdrive I Mass Factor: 10.000.000 Kg Power: 150 CPU: 50 Capacitor: 180 100 MegaNewton Afterburner I Mass Factor: 100.000.000 Kg Power: 500 CPU: 50 Capacitor: 350 100 MegaNewton Microwarpdrive I Mass Factor: 100.000.000 Kg Power: 1250 CPU: 75 Capacitor: 720 It's now testable on the Test Server (Chaos) so feel free to give your comment on the tuning part and post any bugs that you might find. Bugs might be that some ships are not as agile or that the capacitor need for warping is out of synch (capacitor usage for warping is based on distance and on mass of ship, although it differs a little bit between the races). ADDON The speed boost maintained by MWD can be very damaging for game play and for the physics engine in EVE. Players are able to keep a MWD going none stop with leet fitting skills, it's not the biggest problem as I don't want to damage the travelling capabilites, but players should not be able to escape stasis webifier modules easily ... there for I'm looking into reducing the speed boost for using MWD but instead reducing the shield penality to 25%. Normal MWD: 500% speed boost Best Rare Drop MWD: 525% speed boost I have also changed 2 of the least frequent rare drop AB and MWD to being medium and large so that your high priced afterburner/MWD you just bought isn't a frigate module as you wanted to use it on your cruiser/battleship. "Where is my hat?"
Nirvy	Posted - 2003.12.06 01:04:00 - [2] Edited by: Nirvy on 06/12/2003 01:07:14 What will happen to named MWD and AB's such as the QuadLif and LiF AB i use sometimes on my tempest. I also use 4 LiF's on my indies. Will they be converted to the bship/indy equivilent or..? Mercenary \| The Azath
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.06 01:08:00 - [3] added: "The Microwarpdrive now also has 10 second duration as the afterburner modules." "Where is my hat?"
Crownan	Posted - 2003.12.06 01:12:00 - [4] OMG TOMB...YOU JUST KILLED ALL PVP!!!!!! (just wanted to be the first to say that in one of your threads, TomB)
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.06 01:13:00 - [5] Quote: OMG TOMB...YOU JUST KILLED ALL PVP!!!!!! (just wanted to be the first to say that in one of your threads, TomB) "Where is my hat?"
VegetaStuck	Posted - 2003.12.06 01:34:00 - [6] Edited by: VegetaStuck on 06/12/2003 01:35:09 I like these changes, i got a question however. If i fit one mwd on say a scorpion? What will my speed be? Also did you fix the bug where if you activate 2 or more mwd's at once you go insanely fast?
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.06 01:44:00 - [7] Quote: Edited by: VegetaStuck on 06/12/2003 01:35:09 I like these changes, i got a question however. If i fit one mwd on say a scorpion? What will my speed be? Also did you fix the bug where if you activate 2 or more mwd's at once you go insanely fast? It's not a bug really , but the tuning part will limit ships from using many MWD's, high fitting requirement but mostly high capacitor usage, you won't be able to keep a MWD running for a long time. "Where is my hat?"
Novo DuPont	Posted - 2003.12.06 02:17:00 - [8] Ok one thing you forgot to put is the penalties. Will the shield and capacitor penalties be the same or have they been better tuned as well. I never understood why capacitor capacity got reduced from a speed booster device, shields I can understand though. "To succeed greatly one must sacrifice greatly"
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.12.06 02:45:00 - [9] Edited by: Jash Illian on 06/12/2003 02:46:43 I hate it when people ask me "How are you moving that fast?!?" Rifter equipped with one of the new modules pushes over 4.4km/s. And I've still got Nav/Frigate 5 to train + Accel Control 3/4/5 to train on Chaos. Toss on an LiF afterburner and the rifter is doing well over 8km/s (Don't remember the exact speed but that's what sparked the above question). There's a definate control issue when attempting to Orbit->Range. High amount of bouncing back and forth trying to find its orbit slot, especially if the mwd is active. That's a pilot issue tho and can be corrected with a bit of practice. The big ships were complaining rather loudly about having to get out and push all of a sudden. So I suspect the changes there are working concerning the fitting of frigate lvl speed modules. I'll wait for the cruiser/bship versions to see how they stand up then. Still concerned about those that go to the extreme tho. MWD+AB on a Rifter isn't a viable combat setup (unless the pilot is suicidal ). But how is someone expected to counter the extremes? 8km/s is rather difficult to stop. Hell, would you even want to try (you'll be a good 200km away from the rest of the fight). I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.06 03:00:00 - [10] Feedback wanted: Would want to know max speed possible with frigates, cruisers, industrials and battleships, and for how long. All kinds of feedback as well, if you are able to keep MWD going for a long time for example. TomB fears player leet fitting skills "Where is my hat?"
ClawHammer III	Posted - 2003.12.06 03:25:00 - [11] The orbit function needs to approach the orbiting perimeter at a tangent to avoid the dreaded "bounce" when it is trying to establish an orbit. Right now using the auto orbit will get you killed if you are counting on being able to evade gunfire to survive. Frigates will be a pain to orbit with manually at the speeds they can attain now. Fixing the auto orbit would defiantly be appreciated.
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2003.12.06 03:39:00 - [12] as a self-proclaimed speedfreak I'd just like to say WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ahem thanks you :D now to go make a chaos copy ;) . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
TomB	Posted - 2003.12.06 03:43:00 - [13] Quote: The orbit function needs to approach the orbiting perimeter at a tangent to avoid the dreaded "bounce" when it is trying to establish an orbit. Right now using the auto orbit will get you killed if you are counting on being able to evade gunfire to survive. Frigates will be a pain to orbit with manually at the speeds they can attain now. Fixing the auto orbit would defiantly be appreciated. No ship is suposed to be using the MWD while orbiting objects (ships just aint agile enough for it), it's an escape or boost-into-another-range module. If you get into close combat with a frigate, turn the module off, since you want to be in close combat you will have to survive there with out the module - which is of course possible if the ship is class above yours with no turrets to shoot at you, if the ship has such guns, smart bomb or other counter-attacks, then all you can do is MWD yourself out of there and stop pestering the ship "Where is my hat?"
Hallinskide	Posted - 2003.12.06 03:51:00 - [14] I hope you are kidding concerning the cap drain of these things. If they ever make it to TQ a lot of people can just throw away their full setup and start fitting their ship from scratch as this kills every speed-setup. Also you could then as well remove all BS sized short range guns from the game as by the time I am at optimal range I will have no cap left to fire anything but Projektiles. But thank god Chaos is only for testing and does not necessarily mean we get it in the game p.s.: what would happen to the current meta items if these changes are implemented in fact?
Babar	Posted - 2003.12.06 04:03:00 - [15] Edited by: Babar on 06/12/2003 05:00:12 Quote: Ok one thing you forgot to put is the penalties. Will the shield and capacitor penalties be the same or have they been better tuned as well. I never understood why capacitor capacity got reduced from a speed booster device, shields I can understand though. To keep the lowlife amarr scum from mounting these devices and using them to escape our righteous vengeance, of course.. ;)
Caldfyr Reynolds	Posted - 2003.12.06 04:21:00 - [16] There's no need for orbit outside of combat, and when you're in combat it's suicidal. 90% of the reason small ships die to battleships is heading straight into the guns with no lateral movement. But when you tell your ship to orbit it flies straight into the guns with no lateral movement. Then it bounces oncce, twice, and then it ever so slowly(unless it's a nimble blackbird) makes it's clumsy turn and begins it's orbit just before exploding brilliantly. Please please please please please have ships approach orbit distance on a tangent.
Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.12.06 04:34:00 - [17] Quote: No ship is suposed to be using the MWD while orbiting objects (ships just aint agile enough for it), it's an escape or boost-into-another-range module. Sorry to break it to you, TomB, but people willuse it as orbiting device anyway. If they cannot to it automated because of the bouncing design error they will do it manually - resulting in sore fingers and more lag in battles. free speech not allowed here
Tyria Evenstar	Posted - 2003.12.06 05:13:00 - [18] Well done TomB, a lot of people have been asking for this for a while, and now you have. gives TomB a smiley face sticker Enjoy.
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.12.06 05:26:00 - [19] Edited by: xeno calligan on 06/12/2003 06:03:21 Quote: Feedback wanted: Would want to know max speed possible with frigates, cruisers, industrials and battleships, and for how long. All kinds of feedback as well, if you are able to keep MWD going for a long time for example. TomB fears player leet fitting skills I really like the addition of mwds for each ship class and that they work based on the mass. You could take the mass aspect further: add the mass of items installed in slots and the mass of the cargo to the ships mass. That way, e.g. heavy weapons would affect the speed and indys could be slowed down the more ore they haul. It's not too much of a problem keeping the mwd going. With the proper skills, you don't even need to upgrade the cap regen. In a Kestrel: 1539 m/s max speed, can run indefinitely without extra cap regen (dives to about 25%). Skills: nav 5, acc ctrl 4, high spd man 3, en sys op 5, en mngt 4. In a Merlin: 1550m/s max speed, can run indefinitely without extra cap regen. A suggestion: if you want the mwds to only be used for getting in and out, how about giving it a 0en/s cap regen penalty, i.e. the cap cannot recharge while the mwd is running? Also, the shield and cap penalties should only enforced while the mwd is running. Atm it's a too tough on Caldari (shield) and Amarr (cap). There are still problems with the orbit though, and it needs to be fixed sometime. Atm when you set an orbit, the ship heads directly to the target and when the orbit flight path is reached, it starts to turn for the orbit. To make matters worse, the frigates with mwds I tried out, simply stop mid orbit after a while (they resume if you order them to orbit again). A much better solution would be to head for the tangent vector on the orbit path, i.e. approx the orbit distance to the side. Edit: Is it on purpose that the grid reqs are roughly 1/3 of available grid for frigates, 1/6 for cruises, 1/9 for battleships?
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.12.06 05:50:00 - [20] Edited by: Jash Illian on 06/12/2003 06:30:32 Ship: Rifter Setup #1 4477.2 m/sec Max Speed 2 250mm Scouts/2 M-12 Arbelest 1 Meganewton Microwarp Drive + 1 X5 Prototype 2 LHC Injectors 1m 42s Setup #2 4083.6 m/sec Max Speed 2 250mm Scouts/2 M-12 Arbelest 1 Meganewton Microwarp Drive + 1 X5 Prototype 1 LHC Injector + 1 PDS 2m 30s Setup #3 8660.635 m/sec Max Speed 2 250mm Scouts/2 M-12 Arbelest 1 Meganewton Microwarp Drive + 1 LiF Fuel 1 Booster Rocket 1 LHC Injector + 1 RCU 51s before Meganewton cuts out. LiF can run forever from there on. Setup #4 8660.635 m/sec Max Speed 2 200mm Scouts/2 M-12 Arbelest 1 Meganewton Microwarp Drive + 1 LiF Fuel 1 Booster Rocket 1 LHC Injector + 1 PDS 1m 2s before Meganewton cuts out. LiF can run forever from there on. Pertinent Skills: Engineering 4 Energy Systems Operations 3 Energy Management 2 Navigation 4 Afterburner 4 Acceleration Control 3 Minmatar Frigate 4 High Speed Maneuvering 2 The X5 was not active in any of the tests where it was fitted. I'll try webifying an object while running the drive tomorrow. Forgot you can be stationary and have the drive running at the same time. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.12.06 06:17:00 - [21] Testing results: Typhoon; 280 base speed (skills+hull mods) Speed with a 10 MN (aka cruiser) MWD: 570ms, with a 10 MN AB: 317ms Speed with 100 MN MWD: 2920ms, with 100 Mn AB: 675ms Cruiser MWD/AB are no viable option for a BS -> good Top Speed Typhoon: 100 MN MWD + AB: theoretical topspeed 6716 ms, max speed reached until cap ran out: ~6600 ms time till cap ran out: ~ 50 sec distance travelled: ~250 km 2 100 MN MWD: theoretical topspeed 30371 ms, max speed reached until cap ran out: ~24000ms time till cap ran out: ~20 sec distance travelled: ~350 km Note that "distance travelled" is only till the MWD/AB stopped working, momentum is carrying the ship up to around twice this distance. Dual MWD are definatly still an issue. IMO it shouldn't be possible to mount two MWD, be it a frig or a BS. Possibly even disable using a MWD with ABs. Lighthugger setup: 3 100 MN MWD + 7 32 ms OD: theoretical topspeed 500 kms, max speed reached until cap ran out: ~250 kms time till cap ran out: ~10 sec distance travelled: ~2500 km Sustainable speeds: With a MWD - very difficult. It's perhaps possible that a Apoc with 5-6 cap power relays can pull it of, but no chance on a typhoon with 3. With AB: 1 AB - cap stable at 75%, speed 650 ms 2 AB - semi-stable - cap ran out after quite while, but very slowly. Was bloddy ages between 20-30% cap. Speed 1485 ms As said, this was on a typhoon with 3 cap power relays, lvl4 in the energy skills, lvl4 AB, lvl3 fuel conversation. Conculding thoughts: BS MWD is fine, could perhaps need a little less energy consuption, but not neccessarily. BS AB give a little too much speed boni for my taste (and needs a little too much energy), would turn down speed and energyconsuption by 25-33% both. Has to be tested on the heaviest BS before of cource. Which one is that anyway? From the speed I'd say raven, from the size apoc. BTW: Since you are fiddeling with mass/speed issues - wouldn't it be a splendid opportunity to finally fix the agi boni of hull mods? We can soon celebrate the 4 month aniversaty for module agi boni broken. Lastly there would be the webber issue. The momentum of BS make it somewhat difficult to stop these. "Use more webber" is no answer there, even if you use an infinite amount of webbers - basically reducing the target speed to zero - on a BS travelling with 2 kms it will still need 15 km to stop, bringing it outside the webber range. free speech not allowed here
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.12.06 07:01:00 - [22] Quote: Feedback wanted: Would want to know max speed possible with frigates, cruisers, industrials and battleships, and for how long. All kinds of feedback as well, if you are able to keep MWD going for a long time for example. TomB fears player leet fitting skills One more odd thing: Tried ramming another ship at high speed in the MWD + AB setup. Had someone come to a dead stop while I went out 50km+. Turned around and did Approach. Allowed my ship to align then kicked in both modules. Doesn't appear to be possible. At a certain point you pass completely through the other object. I'll try seeing what happens if you try to drop off a pair of cruise missiles at that speed. If the missiles don't frag my frigate, the results might be interesting I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Leitari	Posted - 2003.12.06 07:22:00 - [23] TomB- these changes are awesome, but there's still the issue of putting on 2 MWD's, that shouldnt be possible. Has anyone tested how webifiers are working on minmatar ships now? Here, Only the silent survive.
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2003.12.06 07:50:00 - [24] Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 06/12/2003 07:53:53 Mammoth Preliminary report :) the 87 grid and 4 (up from 3) low slots fills my heart with joy :) However I have : Navigation 5 Afterburner 4 Fuel Conservation 4 Evasive manouvering 4 High speed manouvering 3 Engineering 5 energy systems operation 4 energy managemant 3 the latter two give the mammoth a 517 (from 450) cap with a 200s recharge I get 108 base grid with the engineering 5 10 Meganewton Afterburner I (stats with my skills) energy use : 51 duration : 14s max velocity bonus : 3000% (it doesn't act like it though - more like ~70% ?) 10 meganewton Afterburner I (again with my skills : ) energy use : 153 Duration : 10s speed bonus : 84000% Setup 1 : Filling all 4 low slots (thanks again, love saying that) with RCU I's gives a 158 grid, sufficient to fit afterburners onto 3/5 of the mid slots Max speed : 865m/s The ship was able to run these for about 70 seconds before the third AB cut out - distance traveled ~40km the ship then managed to run the two remaining AB's for one more cycle before the second Ab also cut out, leaving the ship running on one afterburner 50km from where it started Setup 2 : Again filling all 4 low slots I was able to achieve 158 grid and fit a single 10 MWD in Max theoretical speed : 1058m/s achieved max speed : ~800ms Length of burn achieved : 20s distance traveled : 19km although it can be fitted the energy cost of the mwd combined with the capacitor penalty on the 10 mwd make it rather useless to the mammoth - the AB's were able to achieve a higher speed for three times as long without reducing the shield and capacitor oddly enough on a second attempt from stopped I was able to manage 30s with the MWD and cover 25km (hitting 950m/s top speed) the fastest I've achieved on tranquility for reference is 2,100m/s using 3x Lif, 1x Y-s8 and 1x cold gas arcjet - 1x RCU, 2x 20m/s nanofibers in the lows - I was able to sustain that pretty much indefinetely Overall the modules (well the afterburner at least) will either need the fitting and energy costs toned down quite a bit or the ship needs the grid and capacitors increased quite a bit or perhaps a 5 meganewton device/s tuned somewhere between the frigate and cruiser ones .. or it will be a huge backwards/sideways step for the indys . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Tyria Evenstar	Posted - 2003.12.06 08:05:00 - [25] For those that play on Chaos (or TomB, for that matter) - has any of the other industiral ship stats changed (amount of low/medium slots/cargo space whatever) at all? Or is it just the mammoth?
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2003.12.06 08:21:00 - [26] Iteron V has 82, badger mk II has 90, bestower still at 30 (I guess those that argued it was a slow, deathtrap and thats why it should stay an level 1 indy got there way :P or someone forgot to change it) . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2003.12.06 10:34:00 - [27] Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 06/12/2003 10:35:18 Quote: No ship is suposed to be using the MWD while orbiting objects (ships just aint agile enough for it), it's an escape or boost-into-another-range module. That¦s of course right but still orbiting does stop your ship even if you manage to slow down to almost normal speed after approaching your target. The ship often bounces back and forth, causing it to slow down to sometimes below 50m/s (in a frig that is). This is evident with fast frigates as they tend to go past orbiting range and then bounce back to get into proper orbit, especially when the target is moving. This process often slows down your ship and tbh it just doesn¦t look good Here are two illustrations to show what I mean: Again: That 'bouncing' effect doesn¦t only occur when you¦re approaching too fast. Sometimes doing more than 230m/s can lead to this effect. In rare cases the ship will bounce back and forth more than 3 times before it speeds up for orbiting the target. This is somewhat annoying because the slowdown makes your ship an easy target. Here¦s how I think it should be: Using MWD for orbiting is of course nonsense, but as said this doesn¦t only occur when you¦re too fast. Sometimes even normal frigate speeds can lead to this. Mai's Idealog
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.12.06 10:35:00 - [28] "If you get into close combat with a frigate, turn the module off, since you want to be in close combat you will have to survive there with out the module - which is of course possible if the ship is class above yours with no turrets to shoot at you, if the ship has such guns, smart bomb or other counter-attacks, then all you can do is MWD yourself out of there and stop pestering the ship " ... Uhm in other words, you are saying frigates are to be used in combat against heavier ships only if those ships have equipped none of the folllowing: * missile launcher(s) * drones * smartbomb(s) * energy neutralizer(s) * webifier(s) * medium or close range heavy turrets (base speed of the frigates is a joke, if you try to orbit big ship at ~300-400 m/sec you will wake up as new clone in couple of minutes, tops) Am sorry, but if that's the case then it's more fair to simply say the frigates are not to be used against heavier ships, period. Regarding the most recent changes to speed modules. I was pretty happy about the 'new' MWD earlier today, but now that the weight factor is enabled the results are, to put it mildly, rather crazy: speed with MWD. (can be maintained indefinitely) * Caldari frigate (Merlin) 1.5 k/sec * Gallente frigate (Incursus) 3.2 k/sec * Minmatar frigate (Rifter) 4.5 k/sec ... these are all ships of the same tier. Out of them all now only the Caldari are slow enough to have to fear the cruise missiles launched at them, and they offer nothing in terms of performance to make up for such drastic speed disadvantages. They are supposed to be long range fighters, except they have no means to get in that long range fight. They have state-of-the-art missiles except those missiles can't keep up with the targets flying faster than them. Yay. At least they have larger shields so the enemy will have more fun shooting at them for a couple of seconds longer. As far as i can tell, the same kind of speed differences applies to the ships in higher classes as well. Again, with nothing to make up for this sort of disadvantage. In addition, in some cases the frigates are back to being slower than the cruisers of their own race. Might not bother Minmatar frigate trying to fight Caldari cruiser because it will still be much faster, but for Caldari frigate it means she's now the slowest combat ship in the game, with weapons that are no threat to anyone but another Caldari frigate. ... All in all, with the way things are at the moment there seems to be no reason to fly anything but Minmatar ships -- they have complete dominance when it comes to picking and controlling the fight distance... and given they're recognized as the most 'balanced' in terms of offered possibilities... there's no price tag coming with this advantage. o.o
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.12.06 10:38:00 - [29] I'm hoping the MWD changes are drastic enough to mean most people will not bother putting MWD's on battleships. Gonna be a *** trying to hit a frigate doing 8.8km/s though LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!**
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2003.12.06 10:41:00 - [30] I agree j0. DO NOT LET ANY SHIPCLASS BE FASTER THAN FRIGATES! Mai's Idealog

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