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Zeddrick Anthar
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Posted - 2016.01.19 12:14:57 -
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Roughly how much AUR will the new skill extractor thing cost? |
Zeddrick Anthar
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Posted - 2016.01.19 12:39:56 -
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Pandora Bokks wrote:Tristan Agion wrote:[quote=Damjan Fox]The skill injectors can be bought in the New Eden Store with Aurum. PLEX can be converted to Aurum. That's why. Actually, the skill extractors have to be bought with AUR. The injectors are player made by using a skill extractor to convert SP into an injector. So demand for extractors will push AUR demand. As AUR can be bought with ISK, there should be no direct impact on PLEX prices. If the business model is working, PLEX prices should rather go down as more people shall buy PLEX with RL money in order to convert into ISK and buy injectors. This does of course not consider all the other factors that influence PLEX prices - so my prediction is that PLEX will decrease, increase or stay stable.
Right now the supply of Aurum on the market is tiny compared with the PLEX supply. If there's any demand for extractors at all (and lets face it there will be because a ton of people want rid of mining 5 for starters ...) then pretty much instantly people will have to switch to buying PLEX and converting them to Aurum. So it's very unlikely this will have no effect on PLEX prices.
Whether it gets compensated by people effectively buying skills for RL money remains to be seen. That might well happen. Or people might just rat/mine/whatever more to make more ISK and spend that on skills. But this feature doesn't take any ISK out of the game -- it just moves from person to person. It does take Aurum out of the game, meaning that it will remove PLEX from the game too and that certainly ought to make the price of it go up.
Z.
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Zeddrick Anthar
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Posted - 2016.01.19 12:45:34 -
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Pandora Bokks wrote:Right now the supply of Aurum on the market is tiny compared with the PLEX supply. If there's any demand for extractors at all (and lets face it there will be because a ton of people want rid of mining 5 for starters ...) then pretty much instantly people will have to switch to buying PLEX and converting them to Aurum. So it's very unlikely this will have no effect on PLEX prices.
Whether it gets compensated by people effectively buying skills for RL money remains to be seen. That might well happen. Or people might just rat/mine/whatever more to make more ISK and spend that on skills. But this feature doesn't take any ISK out of the game -- it just moves from person to person. It does take Aurum out of the game, meaning that it will remove PLEX from the game too and that certainly ought to make the price of it go up.
Z.
How do you convert PLEX into AUR?[/quote]
I don't really deal with Aur so I've never tried but I believe you can convert a single PLEX into 3500 AUR somehow? That was certainly what they said when PLEX was added and I've heard it repeated over the years.
Z. |
Zeddrick Anthar
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Posted - 2016.01.19 13:19:13 -
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Ima Wreckyou wrote:Can the extractors be used in space, so we can force someone to extract skills (as an example a mining skill) as a ransom? Will he eject from the ship once the skill to use his ship is gone? Would be really nice, thx
Would be funny but you'd need to hand them the extractor that's likely worth hundreds of millions of ISK first ... |
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Posted - 2016.01.19 15:27:15 -
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Carper wrote:I have 257 milliion skillpoints. I have played EVE for a very long time.
The only remaining sense of achievement i got from the game was the training.
I can live with having this feature for low SP characters to help them, but 100+ million SP characters really don't need anymore assistance.
What possible incentive to continue to keep an account open for training is there - when some rich idiot can come along and in a single day create a 500 million SP monster?
For me, that rips the heart out of the game. Guts it.
And for those that say there won't be any Jita riots over this - they are right. But that's only because when things die they die 'Not with a bang, but a whimper'.
I know what you mean, I think a lot of people value the fact that their high SP character took them a long time to get where it is. In the original draft of this a new player got 500K sp and a high-sp toon got 50, meaning the high SP players at least had to pay 10x as much ISK/sp. Now with 150K sp they're only paying about 3.3 times as much ISK per skillpoint as a brand new player. But the spending power of a 10 year old toon is probably huge they should be able to earn a lot more ISK/hour if they don't have enough passive income streams by then to not need to grind any more.
If this feature is attractive enough for new players to buy a meaningful amount of skills then the rich players in the game will pretty much be able to have every skill going.
That's probably not a bad thing in the short term -- remember how removing the learning skills got a bunch of people to resub because they had millions of spare SP to spend. I imagine loads of people will come back, insta-train something new and have fun or just plex their accounts by pulling out that 'mining 5' skill they were so embarrassed about having. In the long term though I think the game will lose that 'must keep training skills' draw it has now and people will actually unsub more often instead of just plexing/subbing to train and play once a month. |
Zeddrick Anthar
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Posted - 2016.01.19 15:43:13 -
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I think you'll probably make more if you sell the skillpoints instead ;)
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Zeddrick Anthar
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Posted - 2016.01.19 16:19:06 -
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ViolentDesire wrote:
What is the point of even having the skill system at all with this change? It seems to be "level 5 or nothing". Why would anybody who is competitive have anything less? What is the benefit to players compared to say no skills at all? It seems to be mostly a way for CCP to extract money while players race to the top.
That depends on the price of skills. Say it costs 2500 ISK per skillpoint to buy these (making a skillpack about the price of a PLEX). Then 10 million SP costs 30 billion ISK from 0 and more if you already have SPs, which is non-trivial. Being competitive at cruiser size ships with some options (i.e. not just one race/hull, not just one weapon system, etc) would probably need 15-20 million SP so that's quite a lot of ISK to either grind or buy.
What most people here have wrong, though, is that this is nothing at all like the character bazaar. With the bazaar I could only buy a whole new character. I had to get all the money, then buy the toon and put up with however it was configured skill wise. Then to buy more skills I need to have multiple toons or replace my toon again.
With the skillpoint trading system I can incrementally improve my character a little at a time and actually *use* those improvements while saving. Say it takes 6 months to get that 30 bil, I can be using half of the skills after 3 months by buying the first half of the skillpacks. Since there will be an isk/SP value on these things and there is already an isk/hour value on a lot of stuff then there will effectively be a SP/hour value on activities like incursion running, missions, ratting, etc.
So what this change really does is allow people to gain skills by playing the game instead of training them passively. OK so it's a bit lumpy -- you can't just buy gunnery V without buying other SPs along with it but it's the same thing. Want to train for today's FOTM setup? How many SP do you need? How many SP/hour to you make? Go grind those SPs. I think a lot of people probably *want* a change like that, particularly new players, but some of us probably liked the old system because we wouldn't get beaten so often by someone who just spent a lot longer grinding than we did ... |
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Posted - 2016.01.19 17:01:21 -
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Useful Alt wrote:WTB 500b worth of SP
to be sold for 1T
rinse and repeat
this idea is bad, let see who will control the SP market
very nice cash cow btw but still very bad decision
Sounds too good to be true doesn't it? Well the problem is that trading, etc just generates more demand, which generates more supply as people plex an alt, train, rip, sell, repeat. Provided the skillpacket price stays well above the cost of training skills (1 plex per month plus the extractor things) people can keep doing more alts and supplying more and more SPs. Supply is effectively infinite, I can always make more alts if they can pay for their own PLEX so easily.
But the demand for PLEX will keep going up and up, pushing the price of it higher and higher until it costs nearly as much to PLEX for a month and rip as you can make selling the SP. And I bet the ceiling price on a skillpacket will be pretty high. The only thing that will push PLEX back down is more supply of PLEX coming from people putting more RL money into the game, perhaps to buy more SPs.
But will there be enough new RL money from this to compensate for the ones who used to pay multiple subs but can now run their alt accounts for free if they don't want them to gain SPs? I'll be paying *less* RL money a month not more after this change because I don't need to train on all my accounts, I just use them for convenience.
But no doubt some people will get very rich on this at the beginning ...
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Zeddrick Anthar
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Posted - 2016.01.19 18:27:00 -
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Eraza wrote:
Therefore, I'm going to suggest, this system of yours needs some sort of limit, based on time, say, having a cap on skillpoints people are allowed to add to a character, based on either char age, time since the system was introduced, or preferably a combination of those two.
I quite like this. I think skillpoints are probably the most valued thing in game. Look at the recruitment adds to see that the first thing a lot of people say about themselves is how many SP they have. But most of that value probably comes from the fact that skillpoints are difficult to obtain and you can't just have as many as you want no matter what you do. If people can simply buy as many as they want this gets devalued but put a limit on it and it might not be so bad.
Say you had a limit of 2 skillpacks per week. That would mean a new player could add about 4 million SPs in a month, which is quite a lot. It would then drop off as you get over 5 million SP and would probably mean you'd train at about 2x normal speed (but at quite a lot of expense). That means to have a 50 million SP character will still take the best part of a year instead of between 2 and 2 1/2 as it is now. As people get above 80 million SP they wouldn't be able to add more than 300K SP/week, which would less than double the training speed. People with 150 million SP characters would still feel like they have something special.
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Zeddrick Anthar
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Posted - 2016.01.19 23:16:06 -
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Memphis Baas wrote:Why do you guys assume that there will be this limitless supply of injectors? Cause personally I'm not sure we'll even see ONE.
I sure don't need "extra cash", and if I do, selling a PLEX is certainly more effective, and my SP are quite precious, so I don't plan on removing any of them.
So where do you see all these vast amounts of skillpoints coming from?
-> Buy a pair of PLEX for ISK.
-> Activate the training queue on an alt.
-> Train for a month.
-> Use the second PLEX to extract 4 skill packets (it might end up being 3 PLEXES)
-> Sell on market for more than the 2 (or 3) PLEX cost
-> Repeat.
People will be able to do that with a lot of alts. I've got about 5 that I could switch on right away and another 10 I'd just need to give a couple of million SP to get started. People will use this as a passive ISK making method until the price of PLEX goes up so high it becomes unviable or until there are more skill packets than demand, but I imagine demand will be very high. |
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Posted - 2016.01.19 23:22:57 -
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Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Udonor wrote:Papa Django wrote:How many million Aur will the tear, err I mean Skill Extractor cost? It is the last relevant question. Any debate before the answer is completly irrelevant (if we ignore the bittervet ocean of tears). If the goal is to help newbros, the AUR price must be low. If the price is too high, it will only help rich people (irl) and rich people (ig) to build insta-alts. 500K sp is 8 days of training for a x1 skill. ? the price as far as AUR is concerned is almost irrelevant since there is a set time taken to generate 500ksp there will be a limited supply people with isk will buy all these up as they go to the market shooting the price up i'll say it again the only way for a newbro to gain access to this is going to be via plex and that is not healthy to the game particularly a subscription based one
No, the AUR price is really important. Once people farm this it will push the PLEX price up and the more the extractor costs the faster the PLEX price will be pushed up. New characters paying for SP is actually a good thing here because they'll bring the PLEX price back down again. It could also be good for the character too if they buy an initial lump of SP then train and slowly sell back to the market to PLEX their account.
Imagine if instead of starting with no SP and training 10 million SP over 6 months you could start with 10 million SP (by paying a lump sum) and then effectively have no training for the first 6 months while you extract the SP and use it to PLEX the account. It'd be just like buying a 6 month subscription in terms of cost but the toon would be a lot more useful on day 1.
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Zeddrick Anthar
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Posted - 2016.01.20 14:36:05 -
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Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Funny how the devs already abandoned the thread. One would think they at least address some of the voiced concerns which where already raised in the last thread and tell us why it is not a problem. Apparently, CCP have devoted most of their interaction to, and got the feedback they wanted to hear from Reddit, or whatever it is called. That CCP do not use their own forums or pay heed to the feedback therein much, is just sad really.
That's a bit disappointing if true. The devblog linked here as the comments and I don't even have an account in Reddit. If they were going to do that then why not just link straight to Reddit in future instead. Hopefully a Dev will stick in a "we're still reading this" post so we can stop worrying and go back to beating up on the idea^H^H^H^H^H providing constructive feedback. |
Zeddrick Anthar
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Posted - 2016.01.21 14:32:00 -
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Oovarvu wrote:seems to me that the people who know that SP doesn't equal win will go on 'winning' and the people who think SP equals win will go on getting their asses stomped. you only have to watch Sutonia kicking ass in a month old character to understand this.
whatever this is it's not pay to win.
prediction: extractors 875 aur apiece
So you get 4 for a PLEX. My prediction is 2000 Aur apiece. Not an even multiple of what you get for a PLEX on purpose so you always have some AUR left over ... |
Zeddrick Anthar
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Posted - 2016.01.21 14:37:12 -
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Dosperado wrote:Zeddrick Anthar wrote:I think you'll probably make more if you sell the skillpoints instead ;) I don't think so because my skills alone cost nearly 29 bil isk. All the new "skillpoint farmers" will extract skillpoints from cheap skills. Why should someone strip his titan skills completely? Assume I strip all my skillpoints I still have 409 skills worth 29 bil isk I could'nt "sell". Makes no sense at all. Seems so that nobody takes the skills prices into account...
That is interesting, I hadn't thought about the skillbook price. But say you have 105 mil SP and you strip 100 mil of them. You get 200 skill packets with that. Sell those on the market at 1 billion ISK each and the price of the skillbooks is starting to look like noise.
Reading that back I'm wondering if I should buy some toons in the bazaar before all this kicks off ... |
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Posted - 2016.01.22 01:02:24 -
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Tristan Agion wrote:
Furthermore, if the profit becomes too low, then most people will not in fact farm even if they theoretically could. Basically, the profit has to cover the bother of actually dealing with all those toons, buying the extractors, applying them, pricing them in the market etc.
I agree with your main point but I think you're wrong about the 'people won't do this for no profit' thing. Remember that even if you just break even with this you get to have and use an account without putting any ISK or RL cash into keeping it active. You can't advance the skills on that account but many won't care about that -- I'm sure plenty of people have accounts like that. I know I do. Take your pick from market trading alts with all the market skills already, JF alts, accounts full of cyno toons or PI alts, link alts with all the leadership, etc skills they need, spy characters, hillariously named alts you use to troll people with, ganking alts. I'm sure there are others too.
I know I'd be happy running some of my currently unsubbed accounts at break even. Compared with some of the self-funding methods I've used in the past (PI farms, market trading, etc) using the extractors and selling the skillpacks is really low effort. This is going to be the lowest-effort way there is to farm, you can probably get it down to a single digit number of minutes per month. The only issue is going to be the high setup cost and that you'll need to invest a few billion ISK in PLEX buy orders, etc to keep the wheels turning which mean it won't be an option available to people who aren't already established in the game. |
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Posted - 2016.01.22 02:07:06 -
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Tristan Agion wrote:Zeddrick Anthar wrote:I know I'd be happy running some of my currently unsubbed accounts at break even. Well, I guess that makes sense if you actually want to play those currently unsubbed accounts. Then "break even" means to you that a toon that used to be inaccessible now has become accessible, and the price you pay for this is merely the ado with the SP extractors. Notably though, this now active toon would never make any progress, i.e., this would only work if you are happy with playing the toon as it is, forever.
I think for people with multiple accounts people probably do feel like that about some of their alts. I have alts with completely pointless skills (a combat link alt that can fly a Rorqual for example) because I was paying so I might as well train something. Also I know people who don't play any more and would like to play once or twice a month but don't feel that this justifies the monthly sub. Once they stop paying the sub they're locked out and can't join in those few times they want to. Something like this would allow them to play casually a few times a month without much overhead. And at the moment they're not advancing at all when unsubbed.
Tristan Agion wrote:
However, this is not proper "SP farming". It's more "toon access paid by SP". A proper "SP farm" must make net ISK from selling SP, and furthermore, the ISK/effort ration must be competitive with other ways of making ISk.
In a sense, you are actually a SP farmer's nightmare. You and people like you might indeed destroy the market - because you would be happy to sell the "product" at cost, or possibly even somewhat below cost.
Well you can define a farm however you like. I think SP farming will end up being combined with other farming because it's so low-effort (a PI farm that also generates skillpacks, for example) and in that case it might not need to make back a profit at all - the PI is paying the sub and whatever you get for the skillpoints is all profit or vice-versa. People do a similar thing at the moment to farm toons for the character bazaar -- use PI on some slots to pay the PLEX while you grow a toon on one slot to sell in the bazaar.
People who multibox mining fleets, incursions, etc will be able to do the same thing once they've trained the characters they multibox up as far as they need to and with skillpacks they can insta-train new ones as needed. If you can make a low-effort self-funding account there's nothing to stop you making as many as you can multibox without going cross-eyed or frying your PC.
Tristan Agion wrote:
If the SP injector price stays around or below 0.25*PLEX+extractor_price, then we know that the main thing happening is that people are using this to keep "finished alts" active in the game. I think that probably would be a good thing...?
Well it's a good thing for me. I'm paying less RL money per month for my accounts and I get to activate some of the dormant ones and make a ton of bonus ISK selling the skills I trained 'just because'. And it provides a steady supply of SP into the market for people who want to buy that. It's not so good for people who want to PLEX-to-play while still training though as others have pointed out. That will be much harder as PLEX prices go up. |
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Posted - 2016.01.22 02:37:40 -
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Rain6637 wrote:I think you need to make different considerations for tiers. The scaling effectiveness is the right intent, but you'll still have low SP characters and high SP characters in the same market. There should be different extractors by SP tier.
An extractor for first tier use, another for second-lowest tier use, and on.
Otherwise the high SP characters who need more extractors will put more pressure on the extractor market than low SP characters (who receive more of the SP in an extractor). If you want more benefit for low SP characters, you should also insulate their market price from higher SP users... right?
Secondly, to simplify the math and the process, extractors should all yield 500k SP (or another standard amount) but consume more SP in their creation based on the tier.
I don't think the PLEX inflation resulting from this additional AUR sink can be helped, but you can still make extractors more granular and isolate extractor markets from each other.
An interesting tweak would be to have it so that high-tier extractors only extract from characters in the high-skillpoint bracket. So if you have >50mil sp you have to inject skills taken from the head of another character with >50mil SP. |
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Posted - 2016.01.22 11:11:20 -
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Tristan Agion wrote:
This sounds like you predict that CCP will be losing money with this change? I have a hard time believing that CCP will be worse off at least in the short term. Admittedly, it is complex to predict net effects here, but unlike us CCP does have all the numbers.
No! I'm not trying to say that this is bad and they will make less money. They'll make less money *from me* but I expect the change will encourage more people to subscribe (either to buy SP and use them, to sell SP from an alt and spend the ISK or whatever). The increase in PLEX price should also get more people buying PLEX just for the ISK and no doubt there will be some who decide that instead of running their account for free they want to funnel all the SPs it generates into their main as you suggest.
It will also give some people a new goal to grind ISK for. A lot of people get to the point where they have a pile of ISK and nothing to do with it and then they stop. Now they can spend it on SP so they can set a goal of 'I want 100M SP' and keep grinding ISK to buy their way up there.
Tristan Agion wrote:
However, "PLEX-to-play" is a real problem for CCP. I don't see how EVE is viable if a large fraction of players stop paying real money after a relatively short time. To keep that going, you would need a strong influx of new players all the time - and that does not seem where EVE is at right now. If people stop playing who are not paying real money, then this no loss for CCP - at least not until EVE becomes so emptied of player-generated content as to become unattractive for people who do pay with real money.
I wonder if the core business strategy behind all the EVE developments is really just to weed out the deadbeats, but slowly enough so that EVE does not catastrophically empty at any point...
Well active logins are way down from where they were in previous years already, particularly in certain time periods. Eve feels like there are less people in it now than 5 years ago. You can see how a free to play eve could work -- make all accounts playable for free (or perhaps unlimited time trial accounts and if you want to play free you have to extract all your non-trial skills!) but they can't train skills any more. To train skills after the first 30 days you either have to sub or buy skill packets.
I imagine that would get a lot more people playing eve -- I know several people who I could get to log in once or twice a month on that basis and just have some fun but who don't want to pay their sub any more. It's a multi-player game so more people in the game makes it better for everyone, making it more likely that people will enjoy it and spend money. I bet there are rather a lot of old eve players who would dip in once a month if they could do so for free.
I wonder if they actually want to go this way but at some point someone in a suit said "you can't do that until you can demonstrate we can make back the lost subscription money by selling these other things". So now they're trying to find ways to sell things for AUR to prove that it will work. We had skins and cosmetic items which, IMO, were quite highly priced for a game which a lot of customers already pay multiple subs for but I have no idea how many of these get sold. Now we finally have an actually useful item that can only be purchased for Aurum and we'll get so see how that changes things. |
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Posted - 2016.01.22 11:48:08 -
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Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:One point that occurred to me earlier: This is making ISK for absolutely no risk at all: Set up an alt in Jita/Dixie/hub of your choice, plug in +5's and remap to max on two attributes, train/extract rinse repeat. sell on the market. At absolutely no point int this cycle is the SP farm character at any risk in any way.
So much for risk vs. reward
Well there is some risk -- the risk that any trader has. What you're describing has a reasonably high upfront cost that you're gambling you'll be able to make back.
You could buy your PLEX, train the character, extract the skillpoints and the market could crash so you can't sell them back for the PLEX cost. That might happen because the PLEX cost goes up so much that the skillpacks cost more than people will pay or because so many people do this that the price of skillpacks hits a floor so it takes years to make back the cost of getting those alts to the 5M skillpoints they need to have before they can start producing. Or it might just be that you're competing against people ripping from an old alt who don't have the cost of actually training new skills that you do.
Not all risk is the risk of getting blown up.
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Posted - 2016.01.22 13:03:02 -
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Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
On the assumption that 4 skill packs costs more than PLEX+extractors of course, otherwise why would anyone do it?
Because they have one or more characters they don't use any more with tens of millions of SP and they want to have tens of billions of ISK instead of those SP. Their only cost would be extractors so the wouldn't have to sell for above the 1/4 PLEX cost. With PLEX as it is now then why wouldn't they of course but what if PLEX cost 4 billion ISK?
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