Hey hide at safe spots, however sometimes when they do jump though a gate a 1 gets picked off. From undock they go to an insta-undock spot... then jump around, and then they warp to the bumper, or another neutral warp in ship. So the only time is if they do happen to jump though a gate, you migh tbe able to get 1 out of the 25-30 ships. Not really a game changer. And because you don't know their final destination, you would have to watch all the gates.

Okkkkk.... Logic... Well, Which bumped ship? THey have on in Uedama, One in Madirmilire, and one in Niarja. And maybe the other one you had no idea about because you are spread thin. with the existing potential targets. This is another reason why Gankers get the upper hand as with any attacking force, you get to decide when and which target to attack, everyone else has to scramble to respond.

If they have the resources to bump that many people... more power to them... but don't think they should be able to hold their targets there indefinitely, or with out some additional penalty for the -7 to -10 person once they do gank.

Sounds like RFF has pilots who are actively keeping themselves safe. If CCP were to nerf Concord in some fashion, that could weed out more incompetent independent pilots and RFF could charge more. Just sayin'.

Yes, yes its a competitive and consequence laiden game in which:

- Someone can indefinetely (or until downtime) prevent a freighter from warping using just a bumping ship

- Having negative sec status has very limited practical consequences for a dedicated ganker char and does not limit the ability to perform ganks in hisec in any way, making sec status loss irrelevant (and consequence free)

- Looting stuff from a ganked hauler can be made perfectly safe by using a DST or Orca and a disposable alt

Try arguing for removal/change of any of the above mechanics and you get shouted at for being a risk-averse-carebear-emergent-gameplay-hater. Oh, the irony.

Nope. The only guaranteed way to get out of that situation is ganking the bumper.

Facpo will spawn with a delay which is long enough even for battlecruisers piloted by -10 chars to move through highest true-sec systems, so - no consequence. As for being open for attack, true but that risk is minimised/removed by use of insta undocks and tacticals.

Heh, if you only knew what you are talking about. You only need a freighter to loot stuff larger then 50k m3 (so, large contracts and cans). If the cargo is not in a package, DST's are regularly used w/o any risk for them.

No, what I'm saying is that once the first bump lands, you're pretty much f****d and you can do very little if nothing to change that, particularly if you want to get out of it in a way which will not result with criminal flags / killrights for non-ganker side. Being able to essentially perma-bump a freighter while using just two chars without any consequences whatsoever for the bumping character is not 'putting more effort', it is simply wrong. The fact that (quite often) you can extract loot safely is also wrong.
The fact that some guys are so bitter about any discussion related to changing such mechanics is moderately amusing.

Interesting post, but it seems that instead of offering some positive criticism, there are people that prefer to yell "please don't touch my cookie". I get it. If I was making a profit out of ganking I guess I would say the same.

So my main concern is this: I started EVE very recently (about 1month) and I was interested in going the haulers way until I got enough ISK to start an industry/research/hauling corp. I quickly found out that in order to haul effectively I need 1 or 2 extra accounts (scouts,webbers) or some people I will always drag around depriving them off their fun and all of this just to have a slim chance of avoiding a group of multi accounts that are having their fun. Yes it really seems they take advantage of game mechanics because they are kind of broken/obsolete (?) but still the fact remains.

I for no reason can or will blame the annoying bullying attitude any player chooses. It may be boring from my perspective but it is a matter of choice. They need to have their fun and I need to have mine. I will however ask this and I am guessing only CCP can answer. Can I play this game with one account without paying for other people to play? Because from where I am looking at it, it seems I cannot. There is 0 (zero) balance when it comes to a new player coming in and like me wants to haul. Even if I am not afk what stops a multigank and bumper from getting me? And I am not asking for blah blah if this and that info. I am asking about MY options as a solo new hauler when while traveling I start getting bumped and a gank is soon incoming.

And another matter I spotted on the killboards. Many ganks seem to be executed by one guy having multiple accounts (yes they are easy to spot). I know that EVE allows multiple accounts running, but solo coordinating 10+ accounts(yes that is how many I last saw) requires some software that executes input automation or some macro scripting. Is this even allowed? And don't point me in the CCP thread about multiboxing because it specifies it is not. Unless someone is an alien or an octopus they is no way you can run 10 accounts that execute the same command at the exact same time.

Sorry for the long text but I recently joined EVE because I love the setting and wanted to join a friend already playing it. However I am very concerned. The game is challenging and beautiful but it seems so uninviting for someone who just started. What am I to do versus a guy who can pay or someway afford 10 accounts and multiboxes them? There is no way I will be dragged into paying for more accounts just to play an mmo. Also yes this is an alt. I was told that griefers will target me if I post with my main.

- the other which bitterly refuses to consider anything the opposing side is saying without providing any better argument aside from "it is working as intended", "emergent gameplay" etc, while - at the same time, throwing basically personal-level insults at those opposing their views.

Well tbh tossing insults is what you did with my post to start with

when you're clearly wrong and proven so one post later

It is very rarely a 'full' drop as you (likely) well know.

Even if it is (and not in packages) you will either use multiple DST runs or get a freighter next to dst to 'clear' the loot. Either way my point stands - no risk for the looter.

Instawarps and tacticals, suicide tackles on the gates, pre-spawned concord (drawn away from the gates) making response times longer, using multiple bumpers, using eccm, changing vector of the bump every now and then.
Shooting the target wreck is one of the few reliable counters which got people quite wound up, true.

Those things are hard? Oh well...

Ahh so it has to be a disposable alt? Not just an alt, but a disposable alt? (I posted the word twice, was that enough?)

I also find it funny that that the AG crowd complain about easy hauler kills, but apparently a DST sat waiting to be filled is too safe. Ironic.

For startes DST fleet hanger has 50k m3 (at max skill even more but for some reason 50k is maximum allowed for transfer). DST is not waiting, it lands with gankers and yes - it is quite safe since those ganking ships will also engage anything else within their range once freighter is down. You should seriously brush up on current ganking practices.

Even if it was not the case, one question remains - why should one be forced into becoming a criminal to fight criminals in hisec?

Also, try focusing on the subject instead of constantly going off topic - remember, it is not ganking we're discussing

Finally, removal of both things discussed in this thread (fleet hanger looting and bumping) would in no way remove freighter ganking from the game, it would only make it more consequence laden and active in terms of gameplay - exactly the things you are constantly asking from the other side.

I am not wanting to make the rules in my favor.

Then please tell me what Risk you have to gank? Please be detailed and tell me about it. I really want to know.

Concord... How so? Blowing up your ship after you ganked - Invalid. Your a Criminal.
Faction Police - Low - small chance of being picked off.
attacked from war targets - just like everyone else who has a war dec - Invalid
web escort - Not a Risk to you - Pick another target.
Logi Escorts - Not a Risk to you - Pick another target.
Blap - Escorts - Low - Seldom happens Gankers are not on grid long.
Warping to 150Km - Not Risk to you.
Other gankers - Low
Gate guns - Low
Shooting wreck - Low - it happens, but most of the time of the time wrecks are not popped.
ECM escorts - Not a Risk to you - Pick another target.
Counter Bumping - Not a Risk to you - Pick another target. (bumping the bumper is pretty rare, seems not an effective tactic)
Smart bombs - Low - can happen but then its a risk for everyone cause they are smart bombs.
Poor Warp ins - Welcome to Eve
PreSpawned Concord - Concord is pulled away as part of the process of the previous gank. If it is not, Pick another target.


So basically Low risk. For a high reward if you get the freighter.

Individually they are low risk. However, gankers deal with most of them all at once, therefore they have a cumulative effect.

Oh, and see that phrase you used repeatedly there, "Pick another target." That's pretty much the point everyone's been trying to make to you. You don't need to add more penalties to ganking. Just make yourself less of a target, and you're safe while they go after the other schmuck who thought he could afk autopilot his freighter.

I am saying Risk wise, it is not a risk. You are risking very little going after a freighter with more logi support.
you throw more ships at the freighter (as is often done). You have no penalty for becoming criminal yet again. YOu loose your ship.. ehhh.. not a risk.

Sounds like you never have tried to. They undock (protected), and then insta-fleet-warp to safe, then fleet warp around. and warp to target. and push F1.

If they cross a gate, then perhaps one will get picked off. Not enough to make a large impact. But you have to know where they are going, and they could have a number of bumpers across different systems. If they have 25/30 ships they are already fit with enough overkill SO that is why they don't ganking them does not work.

Unless you have ideas....? So please share if you have a tactic. :)

There is no risk or penalty for the BUMPER.
Penalties for gankers are such that none of them prevents them from being functional in hisec while keeping -10 sec status, hence, for all practical purposes irrelevant.

And again, no way to discuss it with you lot. Let's just play the semantics game all the time, right.

Actually it is you refusing to accept that, for some, going down the criminal route to prevent getting criminally killed in hisec makes no sense the same way that keeping from warping away just by magic of spaceship submarine collisions makes no sense.
If you can't step away from your position, you can never understand what I'm talking about but that's fine. The future will tell which of us was right.

Well, it's not just my point. In terms of options - there really are few and some of them are problematic to say at least (ganking the bumper for example), however I think and I bet you'd find quite a few people agreeing that while bumping an afk pilot might be ok in a cosmic-justice sense, ability to permabump an active freighter pilot is a bit too much. Providing an option for the freighter pilot to (through active game-play by that player) get away would make sense. The problem is the fact that once first bump lands (and, as we've established so far - that can happen regardless of having a webber alt) when faced with a good bumper you can't get out legally and the bumper has no consequences. I don't understand how that fact is so logical or acceptable.

Well, I've actually done these things so:

- warping to a fast ship only works if the bumper pays no attention to what's going on and does not change his bump vector. We've had fleets with 3-4 people in fast ships trying to provide warpins and more often then not it would not work.
- bumping the bumper is very hard and unreliable. you might land one hit but he recovers from it quickly and then gets another bump on freighter.

Ok, I give up.

this is my main , ganking a mach means i give a kr to the very people i make my isk from . not all of us have multiple accounts and unlimited srp .

4-5 hrs bumping, your question should perhaps be why didn't they kill it ....

Wait what? I have two members?

If a solution relies on a player having to use an alt (i.e. a second account), that's no solution. Players should not have to play the game with a main and an alt to avoid a certain built-in game mechanic. If you need two chars to play the game, then CCP would have to give every new subscriber two simultaneously playable chars.

The other way is the alt doing the (scouting, webbing, whatever) function has to be another player. If that's the case, then safe hauling can only be done by teams of players. Not solo. Which might be OK, game design-wise. But it would make hauling one other thing that a solo player can viably do in EVE.

This just in.

Looks like CCP says "nope!" to the claim that it's too easy to loot a freighter. Freighters are having their wreck hitpoints increased to fifteen thousand.

OK, so with this attitude, what is your opinion on the fact that a CSM from one of the most prominent ganking corps in the game manages to push a change favouring the playstyle of his buddies?

One looting issue I brought up....that seem to have been ignored in those posts. The fact that you can loot after you've started to warp startup(Right click, Warpto or Dock).....your able to Loot All, pretty much up to point of insta warp the moment you go suspect. I'm linking 2 videos that confirm this is an issue. The pilot in this video, has me locked and is SPAMMING point. I seem to go invulnerable the moment of suspect.

We've witnessed freighters do this....and that a sloooowwww painful thing to watch. Multiple potential looters on grid, who do you bump? and who do prelock? all that good stuff.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2aCCgJYKaI&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBvTXOAYhSg&feature=youtu.be


And yes, this aren't properly trimmed down.....deal with it :)

with concord on site and limited time to shoot the wreck, i'd like to see u pop one successfully . perhaps you'd be prepared to give me a demonstration one day.

So nados sitting in wait are obvious, but the bumping mach isnt?

I also wouldn't mind the transfer to fleet hangar be a suspect offense or not possible for criminals to do. But id like to see a nerf to hauling first.

Let's use this logic in the case of bumping, pretty please. Unless you field at least three machariels you should not be able to reliably bump a freighter with a webber alt or two. We cool?

So what, now we should discuss bumping and safe looting in the light of fact that gankers have to field 15+ characters in catalysts (and characters is there for a reason)? What about ganks when they use Taloses and it takes 7-8 guys to gank a cargo expanded freighter? Are we gonna base our calculations on t1 or t2 fit ships? What about skills? I mean, so many variables come to mind...

And again, I'm not complaining about ganking, I don't care for numbers or anyhting in that respect, your guys are the ones using random references to fleet sizes and efforts when talking about something which has nothing to do with performing the gank.

Also, If anything, coming from the largest coalition in game those numbers are a bit on the low side, I mean - having to wait so long for 15ish actual people to form up from a pool of (likely) thousands of players belonging to the same coalition and using same oog communication tools is a bit disappointing. Compared to that, 5 randoms from hisec forming up is fairly impressive.

Anyway, let us not digress anymore and let's stick to the point - problem is (and this thread is about that) with bumping and looting w/o going suspect. Nothing more, nothing less.

aaaaand you failed to answer.

@baltec - Your 100% way to counter it has already been discussed, several pages ago. Yes, having stuff in contractrs (or containers) larger then 50k m3 negates the ability to launder the loot, but if that was the norm then we would not be having this discussion now, would we. Because there would be no possibility to launder the loot and looting would have consequences. Which would mean that the exact thing I'm arguing for would happen. And there would be no reason for us to discuss. See?

so the opponents of any change to bumping mechanics are saying that its absolutely fine for a hauler going about his lawful business in hisec plying his trade to be prevented from doing this by the illegal act of deliberately preventing said hauler from entering warp for an infinite amount of time with no consequences for the aforementioned 'criminal' bumper?

or have i missed something?

Sure. Reliability of counter bumping is ****** even with a properly fit mach, let alone a t1 cruiser with half of mach's agility.
.

I want an area where I can pursue my peaceful activities in relative peace. What's wrong with that?

I want to play the game in MY way; not have someone force their game on me.

Career criminals should `permanently' lose their access rights to gates leading to HIGHSEC. There are certainly other areas where they can pursue criminal activities freely.

I want an area where I can pursue my peaceful activities in relative peace. What's wrong with that?

Well, dunno about your numbers but my mach fit (4xISTABII, 2xOverdrivesII, DCII + T1/2 500mn MWD, no rigs) has 7 sec align time and 10.6 sec MWD align before skills (EFT 2.33). Add some rigs and implants, it can go lower.
50mn mwd stabber ain't gonna do much in terms of counter bumping, 500mwd t1 cruisers are crap in terms of agility.

GL bumping the mach fit I listed above with any kind of reliability.
As for agility, yes there is - fit an oversize mwd to cruiser (fit for bumping the freighter).

Solution: Create a game mechanic that works like this: If one player bumps another a certain number of times within a certain amount of time, the aggressor gets a suspect timer for just the aggressed and everyone in his fleet, to attack.

Example: Bumper bumps an orca 5 times in 30 minutes, he gets a suspect timer and can be shot.

Conclusion: There is no instance or reason someone could bump into someone, outside their fleet, 5 times in 30 minutes unless it was on purpose.

Do you have any videos or anything to make this, observable ? Because it's a miss for me everytime.....I'm not approaching, I'm aiming ahead of it's intended direction..... And at times the angle of adjustment needed to catch the bumper, causes me to bump the freighter in the process, A simple fit you can share? Or tactic that is missing in my approach?

I'd make a wild guess there's a bit of difference between Mach fitted for PvP in null/low and a hisec bumper. But that is just my guess.

The ship stats are not, however.

Lol, so you are equating discussion about a basic trait of ships when talking about bumping (ship agility stats) to discussion about bumping and ganking - activities which can be used in conjunction but are completely independent and viable on their own?
Rich is a poor word to describe your stretching of arguments.



So, if I give you numbers which can be easily verified if you care to open your eft (or whatever you're using), you'll simply ignore them and make this a personal issue. Well, color me surprised.

If you're comparing your 2xNano, 2xOverdrive mega fit vs a typical bumper mach - the difference is about 4 secs w/o skills or mwd. Add likely difference in implants (hisec vs nullsec) into equation too.
Weather that is little or big difference will probably be a matter of individual interpretation, depending on which side one belongs to.

No idea which of the mega losses that one is, but the one I mentioned was the best one for comparison (speed plays a role as well in the bumping game). Care to share the fit / stats, just for comparison purposes?
Re. eft - it might not be precise down to a single percentage, but it gets the job done and provides more then a decent reference point for what we're discussing.

if your position is that these mechanics are perfectly fine as they are and there is no point discussing any proposals to change them, then you have made this perfectly clear in your previous posts. so why continue posting?

ok, as an experiment, why don't you try going out and finding an overweight old person returning from the grocery store and repeatedly run into them at high speed to prevent them returning home, and see if the police turn up and listen to your argument that they had no right to arrest you because you haven't killed and robbed them, and were only holding them till your gang of criminal associates could arrive to do the actual robbery and murder.

then , when you have been released from custody, let me know how eve bumping mechanics as they stand are totally realistic and sensible from a logical point of view .

I have
repeatedly

guy helps gank someone in HISEC and no one can touch him without being a criminal themselves..
- this is a problem

simple and effective rebalance