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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 21 post(s) |
RainReaper
RRN Assembly INC Straw Hat Legion
25
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Posted - 2016.02.10 20:29:46 -
[1] - Quote
I have one question here! I know that citadels have their asset safety mechanic that protects inventories and such upon being destroyed. So keeping expensive things like bpos and such in there is no problem cause you wont completely lose those if the citadel gets blasted. However! Is manufacturing/research stations gonna have that same kind of asset safety? If not then people are really gonna risk it if they put their blueprints in one of those, personaly i would not use those then and just use my citadel for all my research/manufacturing, no matter how inefficient it is. |
RainReaper
RRN Assembly INC Straw Hat Legion
25
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 13:01:01 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:RainReaper wrote:I have one question here! I know that citadels have their asset safety mechanic that protects inventories and such upon being destroyed. So keeping expensive things like bpos and such in there is no problem cause you wont completely lose those if the citadel gets blasted. However! Is manufacturing/research stations gonna have that same kind of asset safety? If not then people are really gonna risk it if they put their blueprints in one of those, personaly i would not use those then and just use my citadel for all my research/manufacturing, no matter how inefficient it is. Remember the manufacturing and research capabilities will come from service modules. The new assembly and research structures don't need to be here for these capabilities to be added. So you could have manufacturing and research at a Citadel. But yes, in all cases what's planned is that if you have a job running, you lose the materials used in the job, but not the blueprint. And yes, we also want for the new assembly and research structures to have asset safety for the reasons you listed. Ex:
- In a Citadel, Assembly Array or Research Laboratory you will have asset safety
- If you're running a Megathron manufacturing job in one of those and the structure gets destroyed, you will get the Megathron BPO back, but you will lose the minerals used in the manufacturing job.
great! thanks for leting me know! |
RainReaper
RRN Assembly INC Straw Hat Legion
25
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Posted - 2016.02.12 15:47:57 -
[3] - Quote
I do have to say that being self sustaining in fuel in highsec is gonna be HARD when you need so much stront and get so little. Having to mine more than 200 blocks of ice for a single run of fuel blocks wont be fun att all. Maybe you can add in a tiny amount of glare crust roids into the highsec ice anomalies? Or make a new type of ice with a bit less strontium and half the heavy water and liquid ozone of that of glare crust? Cause lets face it its gonna be hell to get that much strontium in the highsec ice anomalies. |
RainReaper
RRN Assembly INC Straw Hat Legion
25
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 16:27:38 -
[4] - Quote
Fredric Wolf wrote:RainReaper wrote:I do have to say that being self sustaining in fuel in highsec is gonna be HARD when you need so much stront and get so little. Having to mine more than 200 blocks of ice for a single run of fuel blocks wont be fun att all. Maybe you can add in a tiny amount of glare crust roids into the highsec ice anomalies? Or make a new type of ice with a bit less strontium and half the heavy water and liquid ozone of that of glare crust? Cause lets face it its gonna be hell to get that much strontium in the highsec ice anomalies.
If you can do neither of those then you NEED to increase the amount of strontium you get from the racial ice. Cause i refuse to sit and mine for... 3.5 hours to get a SINGLE hour worth of fuel in a citadel. And i have been looking forward to the structures for so long. please dont take this away from me guys Q~Q You could buy the stront off the market also as it would be a boost to null sec to have an advantage over high.
Highsec wont be self sustainable att all anymore. Im not asking for Gelidus or Krystallos, wich is null sec ice and contains the most strontium, im asking for a small amount of glare crust in the highsec ice anomalies. Wich is 0.4 ice curently |
RainReaper
RRN Assembly INC Straw Hat Legion
25
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 16:40:49 -
[5] - Quote
Fredric Wolf wrote:RainReaper wrote:Fredric Wolf wrote:RainReaper wrote:I do have to say that being self sustaining in fuel in highsec is gonna be HARD when you need so much stront and get so little. Having to mine more than 200 blocks of ice for a single run of fuel blocks wont be fun att all. Maybe you can add in a tiny amount of glare crust roids into the highsec ice anomalies? Or make a new type of ice with a bit less strontium and half the heavy water and liquid ozone of that of glare crust? Cause lets face it its gonna be hell to get that much strontium in the highsec ice anomalies.
If you can do neither of those then you NEED to increase the amount of strontium you get from the racial ice. Cause i refuse to sit and mine for... 3.5 hours to get a SINGLE hour worth of fuel in a citadel. And i have been looking forward to the structures for so long. please dont take this away from me guys Q~Q You could buy the stront off the market also as it would be a boost to null sec to have an advantage over high. Highsec wont be self sustainable att all anymore. Im not asking for Gelidus or Krystallos, wich is null sec ice and contains the most strontium, im asking for a small amount of glare crust in the highsec ice anomalies. Wich is 0.4 ice curently Why do you feel that Hi-Sec should be self sustainable?
because its always been a bit self sustainable. when ccp changed the static ice belts into ice anomalies they said that fuel sustainability in highsec would be around 4/5 out of that wich was needed. After these changes its not gonna be even 1/5 cause you get so damn little strontium in highsec. look im not trying to say we should be 100% self sustainable. But if we cant mine any decent amount of fuel here att all then highsec cant be home to all the structures that are gonna come. listen im not trying to **** you off here. im just saying that we need to be able to providefor ourselves a little. what if all the strontium in highsec gets brought up? if it runs out and null sec dosent sell any to high anymore? we will be in trouble then! |
RainReaper
RRN Assembly INC Straw Hat Legion
26
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 16:54:14 -
[6] - Quote
Fredric Wolf wrote:RainReaper wrote: Why do you feel that Hi-Sec should be self sustainable?
because its always been a bit self sustainable. when ccp changed the static ice belts into ice anomalies they said that fuel sustainability in highsec would be around 4/5 out of that wich was needed. After these changes its not gonna be even 1/5 cause you get so damn little strontium in highsec. look im not trying to say we should be 100% self sustainable. But if we cant mine any decent amount of fuel here att all then highsec cant be home to all the structures that are gonna come. listen im not trying to **** you off here. im just saying that we need to be able to providefor ourselves a little. what if all the strontium in highsec gets brought up? if it runs out and null sec dosent sell any to high anymore? we will be in trouble then!
I am not getting upset. I was just interested in your opinion on the matter. Do I think Hi-Sec should be 100% self sustaining. I do not. With what you have put though, is a very valid concern with good numbers to back it up. I think a better solution would be to increase the amount of stront in both standard and improved ore by 3 for base and 5 for improved. It will allow miners in empire to be some what self sufficient but also not change the standard of null only ice asteroids.[/quote] hm...3 clatrates per ice is still really low...(sigh) well well see waht ccp themselves ahve to say on this matter. its up to them to decide in the end anyways. I need to lie down now anyways. my autistic brain cant handle worrying like this. |
RainReaper
RRN Assembly INC Straw Hat Legion
26
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 21:02:03 -
[7] - Quote
Querns wrote:RainReaper wrote:Fredric Wolf wrote: Why do you feel that Hi-Sec should be self sustainable?
because its always been a bit self sustainable. when ccp changed the static ice belts into ice anomalies they said that fuel sustainability in highsec would be around 4/5 out of that wich was needed. After these changes its not gonna be even 1/5 cause you get so damn little strontium in highsec. look im not trying to say we should be 100% self sustainable. But if we cant mine any decent amount of fuel here att all then highsec cant be home to all the structures that are gonna come. listen im not trying to **** you off here. im just saying that we need to be able to providefor ourselves a little. what if all the strontium in highsec gets brought up? if it runs out and null sec dosent sell any to high anymore? we will be in trouble then! Highsec has never been self-sustainable. You can't get zydrine or megacyte from highsec at all -- it has to come from without. Same for moongoo.
you can get zydrine from highsec mining anomalies. and megacyte from mission running. again not enough for 100% self sustaining. but i said i dont want highsec to be 100% self sustainable. but dont lie and say you cant get any att all. cause thats not true. |
RainReaper
RRN Assembly INC Straw Hat Legion
27
|
Posted - 2016.02.13 18:22:21 -
[8] - Quote
Querns wrote:RainReaper wrote:Querns wrote:RainReaper wrote:Fredric Wolf wrote: Why do you feel that Hi-Sec should be self sustainable?
because its always been a bit self sustainable. when ccp changed the static ice belts into ice anomalies they said that fuel sustainability in highsec would be around 4/5 out of that wich was needed. After these changes its not gonna be even 1/5 cause you get so damn little strontium in highsec. look im not trying to say we should be 100% self sustainable. But if we cant mine any decent amount of fuel here att all then highsec cant be home to all the structures that are gonna come. listen im not trying to **** you off here. im just saying that we need to be able to providefor ourselves a little. what if all the strontium in highsec gets brought up? if it runs out and null sec dosent sell any to high anymore? we will be in trouble then! Highsec has never been self-sustainable. You can't get zydrine or megacyte from highsec at all -- it has to come from without. Same for moongoo. you can get zydrine from highsec mining anomalies. and megacyte from mission running. again not enough for 100% self sustaining. but i said i dont want highsec to be 100% self sustainable. but dont lie and say you cant get any att all. cause thats not true. They removed megacyte from missions, if I remember correctly.
you can get the megacyte from the loot by reprocessing the stuff. again not 100% enough. but its possible to get a bit |
RainReaper
RRN Assembly INC Straw Hat Legion
27
|
Posted - 2016.02.13 18:28:01 -
[9] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Jinrai Tremaine wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alright, update regarding the stront numbers:
- We're going to decrease required stront numbers from 400 to 200 for a batch of 40 fuel blocks.
- Stront volume is being decreased from 3 to 2m3.
- Stront consumption of triage and siege modules will increase by 50% to compensate. This puts consumption at 375m3 for Siege Modules and 375 / 300 for Triage I / II
- Entosis Links are not affected.
Edit: also renaming fuel blocks from racial fuel block to isotope fuel block, should reduce confusion since the new structures don't have different racial themes.
- Helium Fuel Block, Nitrogen Fuel Block, Oxygen Fuel Block, Hydrogen Fuel Block
I spent a big chunk of last night looking at the numbers for strontium in the various ice anomalies across New Eden and working out how the inclusion of Strontium in fuel blocks would affect fuel production, and the very TL;DR is that 200 Stront/40 blocks isn't sustainable with current ice makeup. Here is the Google Spreadsheet I made to keep track of the various numbers as I went through each stage from ice to fuel blocks and how much each anomaly can support, plus what it over-produces. Since I'm not sure how much sense it's going to make to other people, I'll explain it here: Currently (IE without strontium in fuel blocks) hisec and lowsec ice anomalies are capped in how many fuel blocks they can produce by the amount of Liquid Ozone in their ice. That means that they over-produce heavy water and racial isotopes, some of which gets used for jump drives or Industrial Cores, some of which gets exported to null. Nullsec ice anomalies are the opposite, their fuel block production is capped by the availability of racial isotopes, meaning they over-produce liquid ozone and heavy water, some of which gets used in cynos and jump bridges, some of which gets exported to hisec (or combined with racial isotopes imported from hisec). Thus null and high exchange resources the other lacks and the invisible hand of economics keeps everyone busy doing their thing. With the addition of Strontium to fuel blocks, that all flies out the window - at 200 stront per 40 blocks, Stront becomes the single limiter for how many blocks can be produced per anomaly in all classes of space. Every other ice product is over-production - to a ridiculous extent in the case of hisec anomalies (enough racial isotopes for 77.8k blocks, not enough stront for 400) but also to a significant extent in both varieties of nullsec anomaly as well. This is compounded by the fact that there's no effective way to cherry-pick the "good" ice in nullsec - the only way to respawn an anomaly is to completely clear it of all ice and then wait 4 hours, so overproduction of non-stront ice products is an unavoidable by-product of maximising stront production. More important than how much this will mess up the economy for ice products (massive spike in Stront prices, sharp drop in value for every other ice product), the numbers for how many fuel blocks New Eden as a whole can produce are going to fall way, way down. Looking only at local production (IE ignoring the fact that hisec and nullsec can currently trade their overproduction with one another to make even more fuel, which won't be the case with a stront bottleneck), hisec, lowsec and nullsec anomalies in 0.0 to -0.5 truesec systems will all be down to producing less than 10% of the fuel blocks they're currently able to produce, while even the -0.5 and lower truesec null anomalies will be down to 20% of their present day limit. I'm sure that nullsec ice is under-utilized compared to hisec, but even if that changed to the extent that every anomaly was cleared 5 times per day (more-or-less peak production given the 4 hour respawn time for each anomaly) there's no way it could make up for that 80-90% drop off in potential production. Good stuff. I had been comparing market volume of fuel blocks Vs. strontium and, even if you assume only half of the fuel moved on the market is actually consumed, the numbers looked absurd. The stated intent was: Quote:Since Citadels donGÇÖt use Strontium Clathrates for their reinforcement mode, we will add this particular material into the composition of the four existing fuel blocks to maintain its demand. But from what I can tell, total stront consumption (not just what is consumed by reinforcement, but all of it), at present, doesn't even BEGIN to approach a ratio of 5:1 with fuel block consumption. This does not seem to "maintain demand" so much as "create a brand new, very tight supply bottleneck". It would be nice to know the true universal consumption rate of fuel blocks and stront. I would ASSUME they had at least looked at those values before coming up with this, but from what I can tell they just pulled a number out of a hat and said, "EH, 400 should do it. No? you guys don't like that? So... 200?"
lets not forget the fact that "starbases" wont be limited anymore to the amount of moons in a system... we could get maybe twice the amount of structures we curently got... everywhere.. im having nightmares right now about all the fights ower strontium cause there wont be close to enough stront ANYWHERE! not even in NULL! |
RainReaper
RRN Assembly INC Straw Hat Legion
27
|
Posted - 2016.02.13 18:39:14 -
[10] - Quote
Querns wrote:RainReaper wrote: you can get the megacyte from the loot by reprocessing the stuff. again not 100% enough. but its possible to get a bit
And you can get strontium clathrates from reprocessing racial ice, so by your logic, nothing needs to change! I'm glad we agree. ... listen buddy not even NULL SEC is gonna be able to mine enough stront to sustain itself. megacyte and zyrdine consumtion dosent change. but we got a 10% stront bottleneck like Jinrai Tremaine said in a fev posts back. null got a 20% stront bottle neck. fuel production goes to **** with this EVERYWHERE. but sure well see what happens. just dont go and complain that you guys cant maintain your structures services cause you cant make enough fuel there in goonspace. this affect us ALL |
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RainReaper
RRN Assembly INC Straw Hat Legion
27
|
Posted - 2016.02.13 18:47:36 -
[11] - Quote
Querns wrote:RainReaper wrote:Querns wrote:RainReaper wrote: you can get the megacyte from the loot by reprocessing the stuff. again not 100% enough. but its possible to get a bit
And you can get strontium clathrates from reprocessing racial ice, so by your logic, nothing needs to change! I'm glad we agree. ... listen buddy not even NULL SEC is gonna be able to mine enough stront to sustain itself. megacyte and zyrdine consumtion dosent change. but we got a 10% stront bottleneck like Jinrai Tremaine said in a fev posts back. null got a 20% stront bottle neck. fuel production goes to **** with this EVERYWHERE. but sure well see what happens. just dont go and complain that you guys cant maintain your structures services cause you cant make enough fuel there in goonspace. this affect us ALL There's always a bottleneck to production. These bottlenecks change occasionally. Adapt.
bottlenecks can indeed change. however bottlenecks dosent tend to go from decent and sustainable to DEATHCHOKE in an instant |
RainReaper
RRN Assembly INC Straw Hat Legion
27
|
Posted - 2016.02.13 19:02:02 -
[12] - Quote
People were saying the same thing about Liquid Ozone last time, too. Yet, here we are, with LO3 barely affected.[/quote]
I havent heard of this. and its not something that even can be compared in the same way. The amount of LO3 we have gained from ice have been the same as far as i know ever since it was added to the game. Hell its INCREASED with the refining changed back in the crius update. This however is more than a bottle neck cause strontium have always been kind of a waste product cause you get so little. And when SUDDENLY we need 200 for each and every manufacturing of 40 blocks things get insane! Sure there is A LOT of stront curently. But after a while all that saved up stront is gonna disapear into the fuel blocks. and then when there is none left fuel production will halt as well. Then we are F**KED as industry goes to hell! |
RainReaper
RRN Assembly INC Straw Hat Legion
27
|
Posted - 2016.02.13 19:33:15 -
[13] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Querns wrote: People were saying the same thing about Liquid Ozone last time, too. Yet, here we are, with LO3 barely affected.
Before: Fully mining out a high sec belt provides fuel for a single large tower for 436 hours. After: Fully mining out a high sec belt would provide enough stront to fuel a single large tower for <10 hours. Before: Fully mining out a deep null belt provides enough fuel to run a single large tower for 3670 hours. After: Fully mining out a deep null sec belt would provide enough stront to fuel a single large tower for 699 hours. Not exactly the same thing as liquid O, which is basically the bottleneck that gives the "before" values.
at least some people here gets it! |
RainReaper
RRN Assembly INC Straw Hat Legion
27
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 20:25:02 -
[14] - Quote
Querns wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: And feed yet more profit into null where you didn't have to before...
If this is some attempt to make null sec more attractive to hisec players it won't work. This will also have a higher impact on WH players as fuel for running modules will become prohibitive.
Principles are often times pretty expensive. Also, it's not like the barrier to entry to nullsec is very high. You can, for example, join Goonswarm Federation's Section 8 program, either via corporation or individually, and gain access to Pure Blind ice. We don't tax mining at all.
and become a slave to the goons? id rather quit eve than be FORCED to join anything i dont feel like joining myself |
RainReaper
RRN Assembly INC Straw Hat Legion
27
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 17:01:06 -
[15] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Jinrai Tremaine wrote:Stuff I had a look at your excel sheet and arguments, then built my own to double-check everything. I also discussed your points with the team and various designers to get a fresh perspective. We first envisioned this change to increase Strontium consumption on the 5th fuel block type we were going to introduce for Citadels, since they were not going to require Strontium separately during their reinforcement time. However, we now removed the 5th fuel block type, which creates a cost repercussion on operating Starbases. While our data shows stockpiled fuel blocks and Strontium will be high enough to meet the demand for quite a while, you have strong arguments. My math concludes that before the change, one high-sec ice site could roughly supply 15k fuel blocks which is 375 hours for the most fuel intensive service module, the Market at 40 blocks per hour (which also is the fuel for a Large Control Tower). Adding 200 units of Strontium will decrease that to 362 fuel blocks approximately, or 9 hours of Market consumption. We do not want high-sec to be totally autonomous in that particular regard, but numbers don't lie and that is far too much extreme here. We planned to add more Strontium from the sites to compensate for this change, but we will most likely not have time to do so for March. As such, we will reduce the required Strontium to 20 to manufacturing a batch of 40 fuel blocks for now. That means 3620 fuel blocks created from one high-sec ice site, or 90 hours for the Market service module, which is a much more comfortable number and still is a 4x fuel block reduction from the old number. Be aware however that we will progressively increase demand on Strontium Clathrates as time passes and Starbases become less and less used to maintain its role within the economy. However that should make the change much less frustrating in the short term and allow everyone to adapt more easily while we monitor the change. Hope that helps!
thank you for not abandoning us ccp! |
RainReaper
RRN Assembly INC Straw Hat Legion
28
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 18:51:43 -
[16] - Quote
Hey CCP! Do you think it would be possible to send out notifications to docked guests in the new structures? Say if the corp who owns the citadel gets war decced they could send out a notification to all the guests docked that the structure could get blasted. To maybe give people a chance to undock their things before the citadel blows up? |
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