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Redundancy
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Posted - 2003.12.09 22:11:00 -
[1]
I think everyone is keen to see the results of real staged combat trials from the testing of the jump system on chaos, hence I'm starting this post to try and encourage it.
If you've tried a scenario on chaos, please write out what you tried, what you tried it with and against, what you think the outcome should have been and just as importantly, why. Please also pick a consecutive number, starting at #1 that people can use to quickly refer to which test people are talking about. This will give people a chance to discuss real results, then go away and check any ideas that people come up with in reply, and help to form a better conclusion about the workings of the new system.
Please, try to keep it to ideas about what people can try out, and real results of testing, rather than conjecture.
Redundancy |
Basilisk Bonita
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Posted - 2003.12.10 00:28:00 -
[2]
I managed to get through a blockade with a Rifter, which had 2xWMD equipped. The run was made with Autopilot to not loose any time with the UI, to jump manually.
After warping to the gate, i activated the 2 MWDs and managed to reach the gate with only one hit from a Cruise Missle. Top Speed at Gate was 10km/s. So i got through with 55% Armor.
For the Indy-Pilots (like myself) it¦s not worth to even think about flying to a blockaded gate. The Indus do not have enough power to fit in appropiate ABs or MWDs which will accelerate their mass. So prepare to fly with 120-200 m/s with an Indy in the future (if Indys do not get more power). 
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Gwildee
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Posted - 2003.12.10 01:54:00 -
[3]
6 other Chaos testers and myself did some gate camping and blockade running tests. We blocked the FD gate in the PF system. We discovered that a few ships could keep a BS from gating. Only a few ships set up with 2 MWD were able to pass the Blockade. The Jump point during this test only worked when a pilot was within 2.5km. 20km out and only 17.5 km of Turkey shoot ally.
Please keep to the topic at hand. I can appreciate frustration with the system, but this thread is not the place to bring up quitting because of it, just the results of testing. - Red
Eletta VII Moon 9 University Asst Store Manager.. Over 140 items on sale at greatly reduced prices
Minerals always needed |
Valeria
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Posted - 2003.12.10 02:50:00 -
[4]
...
#1
Incursus vs. Bestower
Bestower tried to get from warp-in (20km) to jump range. No success, regardless of setup.
Incursus frequently had to run from the Serpentis Guards spawning at the gate. (!)
Considering how easy it is to chase a Incursus away from a gate, and with the changes to warp core stabilizers (which wasn't used), I see no problem with this. Especially not since the Incursus would be entierly limited to targetting Industrials (other frigates would be to fast to catch, cruisers would kill it in 2 shots, Bships would just fly by at 150 m/s and laugh).
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
what
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Posted - 2003.12.10 05:08:00 -
[5]
Could there be a JIP timer displayed as there is no other indicator that your ship is no longer invulnerable or have your ship partially cloaked when you have invulnerable?
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Shaqan
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Posted - 2003.12.10 10:48:00 -
[6]
Thorax vs. Apocalypse
ingredient's:
1 thorax with 2x10meganewton MDW's (no other speed boosting equipment)
1 Apocalypse battleship (pure combat setup, no webs)
Used autopilot. when i got out of warp i engaged the mwd's and he got one hit before i jumped. Because of the time it takes to target a ship after it has exited warp + targeting time, one should be able to get past blockades consisting of several BS's without much trouble. A web would do no difference. With one MWD it was pure luck i survived.
I havent tested jip yet.
As i see it that is "natural". no cruiser without MWD should be able to get past blockades consisting of BS's without altering the setup to that purpose.
Disclaimer: above text is written to express my thoughts about this subject, and are not an attack on anybody. Spelling errors may occur frequently, and will always do, please do not comment -i know. |
Golgrath
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Posted - 2003.12.10 11:27:00 -
[7]
Raven with one sensor booster camping the FD gate. Bestower with 4 local hull nanofibers and a 10 MN AB (need engineering 5 to fit the 10 MN MWD, only had lvl 4) trying to go for the gate. Bestower got to 10km of the gate before destroyed. Poor Beslower.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.12.10 11:45:00 -
[8]
Kestrel vs mixed force.
3 campers at the gate:
* Fitted with one MWD and 2 AFB's. Max. speed of the ship is about 1.2 k/sec. Got shot by cruise missiles from the camping frigate about half way to the gate.
* Fitted with 2 MWD. Max speed of 3 k/sec, enough capacitor for single burst. Got through.
4-5 campers
* Fitted again with 2 MWD. Stopped dead in track and shot ~100 m from the jump distance.
Incursus vs mixed force of campers.
3 campers.
* Fitted with 1 MWD, max. speed of ~1.9 k/sec. Got to the gate, right clicking on the gate didn't invoke the menu despite repeated attempts. Wasted few seconds unable to jump, got shot.
* Tried the same setup running again, got the menu to open, got through with shields down and some armor damage.
didn't try that one against the larger force, would most likely fail to get through, though.
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Serge
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Posted - 2003.12.10 12:31:00 -
[9]
4 campers vs 4 runners
campers consisted of 2 BS and 2 cruisers (BB and Thorax)
attackers: 3 BS (4th BS never showed up ... )
camped gate to PF from FD. Quickly able to get a target with BB ( sensor booster, webbifier, warpscrambler). BB was destroyed first ... Test ended with big battle ... all destroyed.
Need to setup better test!
***********************************************
... "we suddenly have a good 2 dozen Chicken Littles running about proclaiming tha |
Valeria
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Posted - 2003.12.10 20:11:00 -
[10]
In reference to #1
Industrials can now use cruiser-sized turrets, which are actually quite effective against single frigates.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Basilisk Bonita
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Posted - 2003.12.10 21:15:00 -
[11]
uh, i will test this one out val. :)
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Redundancy
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Posted - 2003.12.11 13:08:00 -
[12]
For the record - when testing gate camping, please only do it with people who have agreed to help you test. This isnt a liscence to sit at any gate and kill everyone that comes though.
Redundancy |
Gan Ning
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Posted - 2003.12.11 15:56:00 -
[13]
I really dont like the changes. Basically if you get caught with 2 webifiers you are dead meat, no escape.
With frigates having lock times under 1 min, you really have no chance to run any blockade. I think the hanges are too much in favour for pirates.
That and the fact you can't warp if in 20km of a gate AND you can still be warp scrambled whilst aligning. Castor patch is a pirates dream I have to say. |
Bad Harlequin
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Posted - 2003.12.11 19:28:00 -
[14]
here's a test, can we run a test where the campers attempt to escape from the attackers? Like, as soon as they see the first ship from the mapdot arrive, they attempt to bugger off.
The campers victory is to escape, the attackers is to prevent them while suffering under 50% losses. In the event of a mix the "victorious" side will have a 3:1 kill ratio, 2:1 marginal, 1:1 is a failure.
I realize you need a lot of people to really get a good final score by that method :D
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.12.11 22:13:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 11/12/2003 22:18:16
Warp-jammers will be a pointless module for gate camping - double webify, hit with missiles, and bingo!
One dead ship.
With this patch, I'm so very glad I'm the hunter and not the hunted.
The situation I envisage is this:
Pirates camp outside the 20km no-warp zone and only kill what they can - solo-pilots.
A force setup to drive them away jumps in and the pirates warp away, leavin the blockade-busters wallowing around trying vainly to travel 3km so they can give chase.
A ****ty victory for the blockade-busters and, for all the changes, is EXACTLY THE SAME AS IT IS NOW.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
TomB
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Posted - 2003.12.12 00:27:00 -
[16]
 Quote:
Warp-jammers will be a pointless module for gate camping - double webify, hit with missiles, and bingo!
One dead ship.
With this patch, I'm so very glad I'm the hunter and not the hunted.
The situation I envisage is this:
Pirates camp outside the 20km no-warp zone and only kill what they can - solo-pilots.
A force setup to drive them away jumps in and the pirates warp away, leavin the blockade-busters wallowing around trying vainly to travel 3km so they can give chase.
A ****ty victory for the blockade-busters and, for all the changes, is EXACTLY THE SAME AS IT IS NOW.
How do you webify players that just approuch the stargate and jump back?
They appear at 7-8 KM from the end of the warp dirubtion field so they only have to fly 2-3 KM to be safe from stasis web (10 km) if you are located at the exact location where they appear?
"Where is my hat?" |
Jael
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Posted - 2003.12.12 00:58:00 -
[17]
The jump range is quoted as being ~8km - this seems to be more like <2.5km for many Empire gates - can you confirm, please? |
TomB
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Posted - 2003.12.12 03:01:00 -
[18]
Quote:
The jump range is quoted as being ~8km - this seems to be more like <2.5km for many Empire gates - can you confirm, please?
Yes it was changed to 2,5 km
"Where is my hat?" |
ClawHammer III
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Posted - 2003.12.12 03:26:00 -
[19]
Edited by: ClawHammer III on 12/12/2003 03:34:41
I think itĘs a bit unfair that you jump into a warp scramble field. You have no way of knowing what's on the other side. If the enemy has some frigates or cruisers with stasis webs you are pretty much screwed no matter what. They don't even need warp scramblers cuz the gate does that for them automatically.
With 4 webs my top speed in a battleship was like .4 m/s with an AB running, which means there is no chance of escape.
Instead I propose that you jump in outside the warp scramble field or get rid of it all together. At least that way they need a warp scrambler to lock you down as well so you have a chance to escape.
If you guys are dead set on the warp scramble field around the gate at least make the warp scramble field emanate form a deployable instead of the gate. That way you could destroy the scrambler field in order to escape or at least give others a chance to escape.
The deployable scramble field should be very big so that it can only be carried in an industrial and they shouldnĘt be able to overlap. They should also be pretty expensive to make so people wont just litter them at every gate they find. They should also be prohibited in empire space. At least in the high security areas.
Another advantage to only having the field come from a deployable is that it wonĘt slow down travel time in 0.0 space unless there is a blockade underway.
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Jael
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Posted - 2003.12.12 04:20:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Jael on 12/12/2003 04:27:04
Quote:
Quote:
The jump range is quoted as being ~8km - this seems to be more like <2.5km for many Empire gates - can you confirm, please?
TomB:Yes it was changed to 2,5 km
Thanks. Is this a parameter that's under consideration for tweaking to keep travel time down?
EDIT: ... and to stop us bouncing off the gates all the time? [;)] |
ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2003.12.12 04:48:00 -
[21]
2-3 frigs at gate webbing ships with bships with tach's and 1400's sit 40km out. TomB, I like the idea, I really do, but it is not balanced. I wish I had a good answer to suggest. What is currently on chaos, is not an adequate solution. It is quite simply TOO easy to lockdown a ship. As opposed ofc to TQ being to hard to lock one down. There must be a middle ground here. Perhaps web's don't function the same in the warp stasis bubble around gates would be a direction to go. Not sure.
And, offtopic the 100mn mwd uses way to much cap for it's benefit.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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Mitchman
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Posted - 2003.12.12 08:36:00 -
[22]
Experienced players is one thing, but new players will have an even harder time to deal with camping pirates and the likes. I fear this might be another Mara/Passari subscription cancellation nightmare.
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Artean
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Posted - 2003.12.12 09:19:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Artean on 12/12/2003 09:21:09
/agree
This solution got a somewhat over-ambitious feeling to it; a solution that affects more than just PvP. Ive seen some peeps suggesting modules to do the job instead, ie area effect warp-scramble modules. Or, perhaps, a module that activates the "built-in" warp-scrambler in the jump-gate (something for pirate agents to hnd out?). Then will at least only the gates that actually ARE camped be affected.
EDIT. sorry for beeing a tad of topic. |
Eduard
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Posted - 2003.12.12 11:44:00 -
[24]
Last changes simply make death trap to every traveler. It give no chance of escape for prays. Here are numbers why a bit about tactic.
1st JIP to system. Ship is siting duck in middle because your ship apear in 11km radius sphere. It's aproximately 9km to gate back and 9km to warp out sphere.
Average BS or Industrial will make 9km trip in 9 x 5s if I consider them flying 200m/s which is far above reality. In total anyone have 45seconds to kill ship.
2nd warp to gate ship will end around 17km from gate so ship need fly 15km to gate or 3km to free zone. In case when ship try to flee it need turn 180 degree and then fly over 3km + allign ship + warp out. In total more than 20 seconds again. If ship will try fly to gate it will be 17 * 5s = 85 seconds.
As you can see both cases are death trap and these numbers bring up another issue. Travel time! Actually travel time are 5 or 7 times longer than with old system.
You devs goes so far in game changes. PvP can't be forced to people. For industrial pilots is slap to face because no one can expect PvP Industrial vs everything. Even NPC pirates are thread for industrial pilots now.
What I see if this change will hit TQ server CCP can expect revolution, exodus and rise of PKers.
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Triniton
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Posted - 2003.12.12 13:24:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Triniton on 13/12/2003 07:25:52
:]
ZOMBIE PRUNES! |
Zarthan
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Posted - 2003.12.12 14:22:00 -
[26]
Trin beat me to the punch, everyone is complaining when now only lawless space will be lawless. This patch effectively 100% ends any pirate activies in any empire space nearly.
BTW i didn't hear nearly as many people cry when PVP got nerf'd big time last patch. People are saying the changes are unbalanced in pvp's favor. Lets look at the last two major patch's i think you'll find it's very balanced.
Senty Guns- Are now in every empire space solar system. Ok now the gate campers are gone from .4-.1 . The Bookmark nerf was promised then to balance this change but did not happen.
MWD- Mucho uber with 2 of these on you can run any and all gates. Controling space is impossible with MWD's. I tested this traveling into FA space NVA space etc etc. nobody ever was able to stop me. With the nerf now an mwd does not put you in GOD mode which it shouldn't so it's a good nerf.
The no warp zone deal- This i'm guessing is partially done to prevent the bookmark jumping. Also based on the changes in empire space you don't have to go far to avoid being shot at by somone trying to camp way out of range in order to avoid the sentry guns. Also sentry guns are suppose to get upgraded to unjamable so you wont see people in empire space.
OK back to be 100% on topic, with 2 mwd unless they use a frigate with some well placed missels they have no chance of stopping you from jumping. I tested this and a battleship flat out cant target anything smaller then another battleship in time to kill it really.
Also the no warp zone will prevent the camping frigate or cruiser from jumping as well. If they camp outside the no warp zone they will only propel your ship to the gate faster. So now to effectively camp a gate the camper has to be willing to hae no ability to warp out, sounds fair to me.
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Eduard
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Posted - 2003.12.12 14:45:00 -
[27]
Quote:
U guy¦s are forgetting one thing, no more JIP camping and u spawn at the gate and the gate has sentry¦s so u can only camp 0.0 space now unless u tank the sentry¦s. Empire space in now 100% save and u still complainin JEEZ!
JEEZ! you are so stupid! Sentry guns have range only 60km. Every PKer noob or carebear can sit 90km from you and blow you to hell. It could be easy made and he doesn't need to go close to you just because he have unlimited warp scramble range. Your ship at JIP sit in warp disruption field.
All what he need is have sitting hauler close to gate who will get ship remains and body.
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Falhofnir
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Posted - 2003.12.12 15:08:00 -
[28]
zarth/trin, you should think twice before posting such idiocies.
The changes as they are at the moment improve rewards for pirates (=blockaders that kill every weaker ships that comes by) by a HUGE extent, while it doesn't change much to the risks they take.
I see people already saying 'but true pirates who catch their preys and ask for ransom will be ****** !'; well, do you really think any sane pirate would do it from inside the warpscrambling bubble ?
Anyway, im willing to bet 5 isks that's what we're gonna get on tq on monday, and that'll be changed after X days of constant yelling (along with flaming 'ONO YOU CAREBEAR YOU HAVE NO CLUE HOW HARD IT IS FOR US TO PIRATE NOW !!') on the boards, and yeah, people are gonna lose ships on TQ to actually balance that improperly balanced change.
i'm kinda pessimistic about all that, but we'll see what comes out of castor on monday, hopefully i'm wrong.
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Merdekka Radaen
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Posted - 2003.12.12 15:25:00 -
[29]
No patch has removed pirates - it has only ever moved them. This one is just the same. They can't camp gates, sentries were put in. Now they can't camp jips because such a thing doesn't exist. What now? Easy - They'll go outside sentry range with long range weapon setups for taking out indies before they can jump. There's already pirates doing it now, maybe because they dislike the risks associated with getting jumped at a spawn. You can easily setup an apoc to take out an indy from 70+ km away in one volley of heavy laser carnage.
Anybody who thinks this patch makes empire 100% safe is just deluding themselves.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.12.12 16:58:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 12/12/2003 16:59:45
I couldn't care less what/when/how pirates behave - I just know that this patch does nothing to make it easier to catch someone.
Chasing someone is going to be pointless, only idiots will jump into an unscouted system, and the no-warp zone does nothing to encourage people to fight.
It achieves exactly the opposite - it makes people think "How/where should I run" rather than "How/where should I fight". It makes battle even MORE gate/station centric without introducing anything truly helpful.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
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