Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
41
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 17:09:58 -
[1] - Quote
What if there were no warp scramblers or disruptors?
It seems to me you'd have vastly fewer kills. Anyone losing a fight would flee; neither hardcore PVP nor hardcore carebear would stick it out to the bitter end. PVP would be less about unfair, one sided ambushes... which to me seems to be almost the entirety of it. You'd have to use bait and tricks to win. And the game would have to encourage players to choose to fight - avoiding cookie cutter fits and single purpose ships.
Preventing players from fleeing is generally bad game design. It is a simple, hard counter, neither tactical nor strategic. You make almost no sacrifices to fit it. There's no point in trying to fit around it. The modules offer no value in other situations, making them boring.
It's odd to think about how much thought went into strategy and tactics; generally, the game is quite shallow overall. PVE encounters lack any kind of dynamic configuration - the enemies are static strategy (resists, damage) and even static position and composition. Much like this could really use a boost, it seems like PVP could also benefit from a change.
Let's think about it in general - to be out in space, vast, unknown... and the cops show up? It seems rather I should have a reason to be there, to stay out in space. And by staying there, I get benefits and incur risks. I fight NPC pirates - their loot is in space. If I flee, I lose the loot. If I want my loot, I fight to defend it. Imagine building a ship in space; perhaps with a minigame like hacking where you Tetris parts together using your construction ship. If you flee, your parts are stolen. If you want your assembly, you defend it. Mining? It goes into a can. If you flee, your ore is taken. If you want your ore, you defend it.
This seems more inline with the intended play style of the game. Pirates actually steal things not by blowing up helpless transports but by raiding. Nothing happens - save perhaps the market - in the safety of stations. In return for more dynamic play, restraints must be removed. People cannot be stopped fleeing. Godlike space police cannot show up to kill pirates in moments. Encounters cannot be canned.
I admit this is too much change for anyone to entertain. I believe it would be good change though. The spirit of the thought is some simple principles;
1) Choice over force 2) Risk versus reward 3) Dynamic over static
There's so much room to make a better game here. With all the baggage this game has, perhaps someone else will rise to the occasion. It seems unlikely EVE would be allowed to. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2216
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 17:21:45 -
[2] - Quote
Why should you be allowed to flee from a fight you accepted?
If you want to do thought experiments, how about if PvE content did not allow you to flee? Say every NPC dropped a point on you the second you applied damage to them. I think that would force you to commit to a mission before you enter it, and have backup on standby to rescue you in case you bite off more than you can chew. That would seem to me to be more in keeping with the way the game was conceived of as you would be forced to put something on the line in pursuit of a reward. |
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
6929
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 17:22:50 -
[3] - Quote
Move out of high sec. Instant change.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
308
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 17:23:39 -
[4] - Quote
you're drunk OP, go home.
Just Add Water
|
perseus skye
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 17:26:59 -
[5] - Quote
What if their was no ships ...discuss |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
41
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 17:27:59 -
[6] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Why should you be allowed to flee from a fight you accepted?
You should want to stay. Fleeing should mean losing whatever you were in space trying to get.
Quote:If you want to do thought experiments, how about if PvE content did not allow you to flee?
This is going in the wrong direction. People confronted with no win situations don't accept risk. Instead, consider a situation where they know they can flee, but can't profit unless they stay.
Choice. Not limit. Tempt. Not force.
Quote:Say every NPC dropped a point on you the second you applied damage to them. I think that would force you to commit to a mission before you enter it, and have backup on standby to rescue you in case you bite off more than you can chew. That would seem to me to be more in keeping with the way the game was conceived of as you would be forced to put something on the line in pursuit of a reward.
Nope. People would just bring enough to win via EVE Survival... many missions already have what you're suggesting. It does nothing.
You want people to have mission risk? Every ship in a mission is random resists, random damage, random starting position. Now, players are confronted with figuring out how to approach it, not just fly in and follow the guide.
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
41
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 17:29:43 -
[7] - Quote
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:Move out of high sec. Instant change.
Meh. In a game composed of winning by numbers, there's little incentive to go alone.
I spend a lot of time in null, low, and wh... boring. Watch dscan. Cloak. Flee.
Wouldn't you like more? |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
41
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 17:30:29 -
[8] - Quote
Nat Silverguard wrote:you're drunk OP, go home.
No, I'm a game designer. I'm just calling out design flaws. |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
41
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 17:35:44 -
[9] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:Choice. Not limit. Tempt. Not force.
Just about the best in game system now is exploration.
Here, you are distracted, hanging in space. Providing content for others. Earning a risk versus reward with even a jackpot payoff, too.
This actually works. Even with scram, though the fight bit is a little sad.
How about this? If you chase a guy who has hacked a can out of a site, it despawns and you get a bounty from the organization owning it? Say, 50% the market value of the remaining cans? |
Takari
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
511
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 17:36:21 -
[10] - Quote
What you call a flaw, some of us consider a feature, and one that I rather enjoy.
"Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things.
Welcome to EVE." ~ CCP Falcon
|
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
41
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 17:37:26 -
[11] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:How about this? If you chase a guy who has hacked a can out of a site, it despawns and you get a bounty from the organization owning it? Say, 50% the market value of the remaining cans?
A guy is in a mission. You chase him off? It despawns and you get - immediately - half the remaining value of the ships there. |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
41
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 17:39:58 -
[12] - Quote
Takari wrote:What you call a flaw, some of us consider a feature, and one that I rather enjoy.
I think you only find it that way as you've not had better.
Unless you're into one sided, boring fights so lopsided the only way to make them work is that you have to force the loser to keep playing to get your enjoyment.
Or did you mean you like Concord showing up to defend you? |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
41
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 17:41:55 -
[13] - Quote
Even chasing would be better than lockdown. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2216
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 17:42:46 -
[14] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Why should you be allowed to flee from a fight you accepted? You should want to stay. Fleeing should mean losing whatever you were in space trying to get. Quote:If you want to do thought experiments, how about if PvE content did not allow you to flee? This is going in the wrong direction. People confronted with no win situations don't accept risk. Instead, consider a situation where they know they can flee, but can't profit unless they stay. Choice. Not limit. Tempt. Not force. But it isn't no-win when they accept the fight. People only undock when they think they have something to gain whether that is loot (from NPCs or other players) or a killmail. You are tempted with loot as an inducement to undock. If you don't want that risk, stay in station.
You are not entitled to farm resources into the greater economy that effects us all while retaining the option to decline a fight. Your undocking is consent to fight.
Fa Xian wrote:Quote:Say every NPC dropped a point on you the second you applied damage to them. I think that would force you to commit to a mission before you enter it, and have backup on standby to rescue you in case you bite off more than you can chew. That would seem to me to be more in keeping with the way the game was conceived of as you would be forced to put something on the line in pursuit of a reward. Nope. People would just bring enough to win via EVE Survival... many missions already have what you're suggesting. It does nothing. You want people to have mission risk? Every ship in a mission is random resists, random damage, random starting position. Now, players are confronted with figuring out how to approach it, not just fly in and follow the guide. Sounds good to me. Random resists, random spawns and random damage all very much more like the rest of Eve rather than the no-effort, read-a-website grindfest most of Eve's PvE has become. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1940
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 17:43:54 -
[15] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:Fa Xian wrote:How about this? If you chase a guy who has hacked a can out of a site, it despawns and you get a bounty from the organization owning it? Say, 50% the market value of the remaining cans? A guy is in a mission. You chase him off? It despawns and you get - immediately - half the remaining value of the ships there.
So basically, you've just devised a way for me to grab half the value of a mission as quickly as I can accept them on my alt.
Sounds pretty awesome.
By awesome, I mean "********".
Maybe you should give us some background on your experience in Eve PvP, OP. I suspect it is vanishingly little, and your opinions are predicated on a general lack of knowledge.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
41
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 17:47:16 -
[16] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:So basically, you've just devised a way for me to grab half the value of a mission as quickly as I can accept them on my alt.
Sounds pretty awesome.
Sounds like you've mistaken an off the cuff observation for balance tested code. It's an easy mistake to make when being snide online is more important to you than honest contributions. |
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
625
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 17:51:01 -
[17] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:You should want to stay. Fleeing should mean losing whatever you were in space trying to get.
How does this apply to haulers? Get caught, run away and fly a different route. Or log off for an hour and try again later. Not much of a loss. Miners? Just try another belt/another system. Ratters? Just try another anomaly.
Even worse: What about "Pirates" - people who are out and about harassing Ratters and Miners? They'd not risk anything doing so. Attack someone and either kill him or run away.
Also - to be in range of a warp disruptor is a consequence of a choice already. You decide to jump through a gate without a scout, you decide to be out in a slow ship during a war, you decide not to watch your directional scanner for combat probes...
Once you are within 24km of someone who is out to kill you, you should not be able to just run away anymore. (although you still might be able to - ECM, Damps, Neuts, plain old speed - warp disruptors can be countered. Being able to do so is also a choice).
If you get pointed and killed, it's almost always because you messed up somewhere. It's all about choices.
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
41
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 17:51:26 -
[18] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Your undocking is consent to fight.
And you'd still have it. You just can't force it on me. You're free to attack me. If I hide in a station, I get nothing.
In fact, I'm much more willing to risk leaving as I know I can keep my ship and flee. For my lesser risk, I'm expecting lesser, diwn to no reward. You own space unless I want to fight you for it.
You already have play like this on an alliance scale. Why not play like that on a small scale? |
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
309
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 17:53:32 -
[19] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:Nat Silverguard wrote:you're drunk OP, go home. No, I'm a game designer. I'm just calling out design flaws.
well, i guess, it's safe to assume that CCP will never hire you.
this is a game about ship explosion, majority of people play this game because of ship explosion. limiting ship explosion in this game doesn't compute. if your "feature" and "brilliant ideas" are not about more ship explosions, then sorry, your "game design" is not for EVE, and as i've said earlier, you're drunk, go home.
based on your kb, well, we can see where you are coming from. exploding is normal dude, suck it up.
Just Add Water
|
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
9614
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 17:54:01 -
[20] - Quote
This is probably a troll, but I'll bite.
Fa Xian wrote:What if there were no warp scramblers or disruptors?
It seems to me you'd have vastly fewer kills. Anyone losing a fight would flee; neither hardcore PVP nor hardcore carebear would stick it out to the bitter end. PVP would be less about unfair, one sided ambushes... which to me seems to be almost the entirety of it. You'd have to use bait and tricks to win. And the game would have to encourage players to choose to fight - avoiding cookie cutter fits and single purpose ships. Alternatively... you get MORE single purpose ships...
that are designed to deal as much damage as possible in as short a time as possible...
... to destroy a target before it has a chance to escape...
... much like suicide ganking...
... and massive fleet warfare.
Keep in mind that warfare in general is a "negative-ISK" activity. You gain nothing from doing it unless territory is at stake, a target is fat and juicy, or you want to do it. But even then, if the odds are not in your favor or you find yourself losing... you have no reason to stay. So you will leave regardless of the potential payoff you will be giving up.
That's the point behind the warp disruption mechanics. To force people to commit to fights they go into and to make people more careful about where they go and how they do things (lest you be "grappled" and killed).
How did you Veterans start?
"Learn how things work. The intricacies, interactions, and hard limits... knowing these things will grant you far more power in the long run."
|
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1943
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 17:55:40 -
[21] - Quote
Quote:Sounds like you've mistaken an off the cuff observation for balance tested code. It's an easy mistake to make when being snide online is more important to you than honest contributions.
Answer the question about your PVP experience, please.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1312
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 17:56:48 -
[22] - Quote
When I started playing Eve I thought the same as the OP, still have a feeling that these modules are just too final, which is what I like about Elite Dangerous and the system suggested for Star Citizen, you can flee. Eve nope you are locked in unless you clear the attacker with the point.
I would like points to have the same chance percentage as ECM, would make the game more interesting for the prey, but of course most people who play this game don't care about their challenge they just want sure and easy kills so they would go up the wall at this suggestion.
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically a themepark for gankers
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
41
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 17:57:51 -
[23] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:How does this apply to haulers? Get caught, run away and fly a different route.
Pretty much. Why do you want to fight haulers?
Quote:Miners? Just try another belt/another system. Ratters? Just try another anomaly.
And get followed by the pirate.
Quote:What about "Pirates" - people who are out and about harassing Ratters and Miners? They'd not risk anything doing so. Attack someone and either kill him or run away.
And get nothing.
New net? An exciting encounter. More frequently happening. More people willing to risk more in more encounters of a greater variety.
Quote:If you get pointed and killed, it's almost always because you messed up somewhere. It's all about choices.
I agree. I just find it very dull. Gate camps are boring game play. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2216
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Your undocking is consent to fight. And you'd still have it. You just can't force it on me. You're free to attack me. If I hide in a station, I get nothing. In fact, I'm much more willing to risk leaving as I know I can keep my ship and flee. For my lesser risk, I'm expecting lesser, diwn to no reward. You own space unless I want to fight you for it. You already have play like this on an alliance scale. Why not play like that on a small scale? You can be immune from other players as soon as agree to remove rewards from your PvE. You do not get to gain advatage in our shared economy while immune from me and the rest of New Eden.
Pro-tip: if you hate the fact other players can affect your gameplay, your Eve subscription allows you access to the test server, Sisi. It is actually against the rules for other players to explode you there against your will. Please, feel free to run missions there to your heart's content, safe from the risk of non-consensual PvP.
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
41
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:02:07 -
[25] - Quote
Nat Silverguard wrote:well, i guess, it's safe to assume that CCP will never hire you.
Quite. I noted above I'd get nothing but flak for even opening my mouth. The community isn;t interested in new ideas or alternate approaches.
Quote:If your "feature" and "brilliant ideas" are not about more ship explosions, then sorry, your "game design" is not for EVE...
I was anticipating more exciting encounters. I can see the only thing you value is one sided fights you win completely.
"It is not enough Nat wins. Others must lose."
Quote:based on your kb, well, we can see where you are coming from. exploding is normal dude, suck it up.
I don't hunt. It's too dull.
|
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
309
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:02:28 -
[26] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote: I agree. I just find it very dull. Gate camps are boring game play.
lol, let's be hones here, dull/boring? how high was your bp when campers caught you?
Just Add Water
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
41
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:03:09 -
[27] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Maybe you should give us some background on your experience in Eve PvP, OP. I suspect it is vanishingly little, and your opinions are predicated on a general lack of knowledge.
Killboards are public. You can look it up like everyone else. |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
41
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:05:21 -
[28] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:You can be immune from other players as soon as agree to remove rewards from your PvE.
A lot of this would take a lot of rebalance. It is likely that everything would pay out a lot less. |
Grauth Thorner
Vicious Trading Company
447
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:06:56 -
[29] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:It's odd to think about how much thought went into strategy and tactics; generally, the game is quite shallow overall. That's why it exists for longer then you call yourself a game designer, people like shallow.
I agree about the NPC part though, but EVE Online is more about the PvP than the PvE. The good part about PvE being rather dull is that it more or less forces more (high-sec) missioners to go do some PvP instead, generating more PvP content.
Create your own in-game shiplabels:
>EVE Custom Ship Labeler application forum thread
>iciclesoft.com
|
Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1001
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:07:38 -
[30] - Quote
Why do I get the feeling i am playing a vastly different game than the OP? Look.... There's this teapot. It's sacred. We fight for the right to make pot noodles in it. The blues fight to not let others make pot noodles in the tea pot. It really is that simple. Scram, disrupt, doesn't matter. We fight because it's fun. We aren't alone either. A good many groups exist to fight for the fun of it.
As for the notion that preventing people from running is poor game design...
Yup... Every slow spell, ice beam, vine trap, stasis field, stun ray, ion disruptor, spike strip, deployable mine field, emp pulse, web spell, or any other method present in countless games, yup, all poor design...
Not buying that. There have been countless ways used to keep people in a fight. Just because you do not like it does not make it bad game design. |
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
41
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:07:55 -
[31] - Quote
Nat Silverguard wrote:lol, let's be hones here, dull/boring? how high was your bp when campers caught you?
Last night I lost 700m in a Nereus in low. Saw it coming, too.
Didn't even phase me. Less than 15% net worth. All earning ships still intact. Gave away more than that in the last month.
But let's continue to make it about me. It shows you can't defend your ideas when you resort to such. |
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
310
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:07:56 -
[32] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:Nat Silverguard wrote:well, i guess, it's safe to assume that CCP will never hire you. Quite. I noted above I'd get nothing but flak for even opening my mouth. The community isn;t interested in new ideas or alternate approaches. Quote:If your "feature" and "brilliant ideas" are not about more ship explosions, then sorry, your "game design" is not for EVE... I was anticipating more exciting encounters. I can see the only thing you value is one sided fights you win completely. "It is not enough Nat wins. Others must lose." Quote:based on your kb, well, we can see where you are coming from. exploding is normal dude, suck it up. I don't hunt. It's too dull.
yes, it's never enough that i only win, i want others to lose and cry and weep and make dumb ideas because of pain. but sadly, i don't even fly dps, and i don't gate camp, i protect the federation and democracy. i actually prefer ewar and logi.
we want change, but as i've said, change needs to be inclined to more ship explosions.
Just Add Water
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2605
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:08:24 -
[33] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Maybe you should give us some background on your experience in Eve PvP, OP. I suspect it is vanishingly little, and your opinions are predicated on a general lack of knowledge. Killboards are public. You can look it up like everyone else.
I didn't expect what I found... |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1945
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:08:42 -
[34] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Maybe you should give us some background on your experience in Eve PvP, OP. I suspect it is vanishingly little, and your opinions are predicated on a general lack of knowledge. Killboards are public. You can look it up like everyone else.
I don't generally like judging people over killboard stats alone, if only because people commonly play more than one character.
Should I assume that your KB tells the full story of your experience, then?
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
41
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:10:25 -
[35] - Quote
Grauth Thorner wrote: That's why it exists for longer then you call yourself a game designer, people like shallow.
Yes, yes they do.
Quote:I agree about the NPC part though, but EVE Online is more about the PvP than the PvE. The good part about PvE being rather dull is that it more or less forces more (high-sec) missioners to go do some PvP instead, generating more PvP content.
I do see a lot of whining about getting people out of high... but yeah. It's the only long game, I suppose. |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
41
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:12:22 -
[36] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Should I assume that your KB tells the full story of your experience, then?
It can't. It doesn't show my wins. I win by avoiding and escaping. Your precious metric for judging doesn't define me or my playstyle.
But you think it does. If I'm not exactly like you, I'm worthless. That attitude has done a lot of good in the world. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1945
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:15:15 -
[37] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Should I assume that your KB tells the full story of your experience, then? It can't. It doesn't show my wins. I win by avoiding and escaping. Your precious metric for judging doesn't define me or my playstyle. But you think it does. If I'm not exactly like you, I'm worthless. That attitude has done a lot of good in the world.
Uh, I asked you to tell us about your experience.
You're the one that said to check your KB, making it your metric.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
41
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:16:12 -
[38] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:We fight because it's fun.
I'm just exploring ideas intended to get you more fun.
Quote:Every slow spell, ice beam, vine trap, stasis field, stun ray, ion disruptor, spike strip, deployable mine field, emp pulse, web spell, or any other method present in countless games, yup, all poor design...
Temporary. Points aren't.
The ECM style point above is a great idea. Taking out points completely isn't a proposal. It's a conversation. A start, not an end.
Quote:Just because you do not like it does not make it bad game design.
It's not about what I like. It's about what you might like more. |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
41
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:19:40 -
[39] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Uh, I asked you to tell us about your experience.
You're the one that said to check your KB, making it your metric.
I am an explorer. 30m sp. I spend a lot of time dodging people in low. Been in null alliance. Solo'd sleepers. Run combat sites in low. Mined. Hauled.
Was that useful to you? |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1946
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:20:42 -
[40] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:
Temporary. Points aren't.
Points are very temporary. In fact, they have a fairly short duration - about 5 seconds, if I recall correctly. They must then be reapplied.
There are myriad ways to break an application, or prevent a reapplication, including pulling range, neuting them out, or using ECM (burst, standard, or drone), and, where applicable, session changing. You can also negate them through the use of warp core stabilizers.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
|
Poddington Bare
Angur Therapy
236
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:22:06 -
[41] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:It's not about what I like. It's about what you might like more.
Sweet Gorilla of Manila. Really?
This whole thread is beginning to look like a really bad acid flashback.
|
Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1002
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:26:53 -
[42] - Quote
But your suggestion would not get me more fun. My fights happen with or without points. So removal changes little. You would be wasting a vast amount of development time on balancing out the idea which could be spent on developing new ships and modules which would increase my fun. So why?
Also, there are ways to kill a ship before it runs. It's using ships that may have low damage per second but do high volley damage. In EVE, this is called Alpha damage. It is a common fleet design concept in nul or other groups who want to kill ships before repairs from logi ships land. By removing points, people would just opt for more alpha fleets, which work better the more numbers people hav3. In the end, you just see N+ scenarios where the fleet with the biggest numbers win and EVE becomes a race to join the largest group only. That doesn't strike me as fun or leading to more fun for all. That is just dull blobbing to win. Why encourage that? |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
41
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:28:11 -
[43] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:There are myriad ways to break an application, or prevent a reapplication, including pulling range, neuting them out, or using ECM (burst, standard, or drone), and, where applicable, session changing. You can also negate them through the use of warp core stabilizers.
I suppose. People like their chess match strategy. I guess I'd like more tactics. Less decision at undock, more in space.
More chance based things would be more dramatic.
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
41
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:30:26 -
[44] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:In the end, you just see N+ scenarios...
I see a lot of assertions that that is already true. |
Poddington Bare
Angur Therapy
236
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:30:51 -
[45] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:More chance based things would be more dramatic.
You mean infuriating.
I don't mind being beaten by a better player. But to be beaten by a CCP coin-toss...no thanks.
|
admiral root
Red Galaxy
3642
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:50:31 -
[46] - Quote
TL;DR: OP wants Eve to be nerfed again, wonders why people disagree with him.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
CODE. forum - everyone's welcome (no shiptoasters)
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1313
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:52:03 -
[47] - Quote
Poddington Bare wrote:Fa Xian wrote:More chance based things would be more dramatic. You mean infuriating. I don't mind being beaten by a better player. But to be beaten by a CCP coin-toss...no thanks.
And yet I bet you will agree with that being done to ECM, in fact its not a coin toss there is actually an algorithm in it that will on a random base prevent all ECM from working on all jammers so the player being jammed has the feeling he can actually fire back.
Fa Xian,
Welcome to the Eve forums, when you post here I will advise you anything that goes against certain peoples belief on what Eve is will result in a savage reaction.
You will be told you are useless, I see they did that above. You will be ridiculed, you be told that you are on meds or something else like that, then some lame twit will come along and war dec you to be cheered on by other ladies, its how Eve is.
You might even be honoured by Jenn who will tell you how stupid you are and how wonderful she is doing level 4's and then you will have won Eve forums. Its kinda fun if you like that sort of thing.
I respect you for coming on here and having a go, most people have one pass and think its a complete waste of time and don't bother.
One issue is that CCP devs hardly read the forums at all, so any good ideas on Eve forums are wasted, it is sadly how it is.
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically a themepark for gankers
|
Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1003
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:55:55 -
[48] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:Lady Ayeipsia wrote:In the end, you just see N+ scenarios... I see a lot of assertions that that is already true.
But it is not. With points, I can hold an enemy fleet in space. This allows those on my side who lost ships a chance to return to the fight. The enemy may as well, but this then begins to divert into a strategic fight. It becomes a matter of who can hold the field longer, who has resources (more ships to lose), who has the better logistics and such. Claiming territory/having your base or staging area near the fight starts to matter, which in turn leads to more strategy as people fight to be based out the area with best resources or easier logistic support.
With no points, you get nothing but guerrilla warfare. Ships warp in, pop a target and go. There's little defense against it and the game grows stale. Heck... Look at some of the biggest fights. They occured because a mistake was made, someone held a target in Space using some form of warp disrupt, and the big fight to either save that target or kill it ensued.
Now think about titans... Under your system, they would almost never die. To alpha one would take multiple other titans. You would not see smaller groups kill them because they could always run. How is having the biggest ship in game unkillable unless blogged by more titans be any fun? |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1947
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 19:00:08 -
[49] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:There are myriad ways to break an application, or prevent a reapplication, including pulling range, neuting them out, or using ECM (burst, standard, or drone), and, where applicable, session changing. You can also negate them through the use of warp core stabilizers. I suppose. People like their chess match strategy. I guess I'd like more tactics. Less decision at undock, more in space. More chance based things would be more dramatic.
Which brings us to why I asked about your PvP experience, as, in reality, both can be significant factors. What you undock in should generally influence the tactics you employ in space.
You're probably not going to be boomeranging anyone in a Nereus, so you neeed to be cautious up front: Watch local, d-scan, employ scouts, cloak and MWD, etc.
You can't undock completely unprepared to deal with anything, blindly blunder into your worst-case-scenario, and then expect the game to essentially grant you invulnerability because you employed the clever tactic of clicking the warp button.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Poddington Bare
Angur Therapy
237
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 19:04:58 -
[50] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:So much bitter.
Oh my.
If I had your passive-aggressive mental health problems and obvious issues with the Eve forums...I'd avoid the Eve forums.
|
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1313
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 19:11:26 -
[51] - Quote
Poddington Bare wrote:Dracvlad wrote:So much bitter. Oh my. If I had your passive-aggressive mental health problems and obvious issues with the Eve forums...I'd avoid the Eve forums.
There you go an example of are you taking your meds, so predictable... Go to page two and see the insults directed at the OP, but that is normal for the Eve forums. Also I don't report things that hurt my feelings, I would not even report your post, but I bet one of you lot will report my earlier post.
Lady Ayeipsia,
Look at the recent fight in Jan over a tower, a chance based point would have made little difference to the butchers bill on that strategic fight over a moon. Just a few less deaths when people decided that they were losing
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically a themepark for gankers
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
43
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 19:11:52 -
[52] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:You can't undock completely unprepared ...
My recent loss is only the starting point for thinking about it.
Honestly, there's so much whining on these forums you can't get any signal through the noise.
Do I sound upset about my loss? I should have a transcript of chat with a corpmate. I'll tell you now what I said then.
I probably made their night. I saw it coming and jumped anyway. To see if they'd catch me - they're lucky they did. The two I saw had 3 more on the other side of the gate. I even tried to dump my 700m cargo so it would not be half destroyed and someone would get it.
After, all I could think about was how lame their game choice was. Sitting on a gate. Hoping. And jump on a hauler. Which likely would be empty and no challenge. Nothing to brag about in corp chat. Well, now they have at least loot to enjoy from it. But they didn't get a fight. Neither did I.
We could have saved everyone time by my just sending them money. Then they could go enjoy some real PVP.
That loss is not me here crying about it.
It's me here crying about how lame the entire situation was. Mostly for them. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
10837
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 19:15:20 -
[53] - Quote
Since the patch, it's funny that everyone seems to not only think they have the answers to all of EVE's woes, they also believe that GD is a more appropriate place to post suggestions than Features and Ideas.
In any event, apologies but this is a pretty bad set of ideas that runs counter to the ethos of EVE. It might be fine in the games you design, but they are certainly not appropriate here.
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
|
Annemariela Antonela
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
346
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 19:18:24 -
[54] - Quote
Furious Timewaster of a read.
Three thumbs down.
GÇ£Culture is like a smog. To live within it, you must breathe some of it in and, inevitably, be contaminated.GÇ¥
GÇò Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
45
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 19:18:27 -
[55] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:With points, I can hold an enemy fleet in space.
Interesting point about it being an escalation tool.
A lot of times I don't think it works out that way. Fights seem too small and too short to be opportunities to escalate, but then I dont do fleets of dozens in null.
But it's a good point.
I'm just suggesting I'd rather see fighting over territory, assets. But if fights could be long enough to allow escalation, that'd be good too. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1950
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 19:20:48 -
[56] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:You can't undock completely unprepared ... My recent loss is only the starting point for thinking about it. Honestly, there's so much whining on these forums you can't get any signal through the noise. Do I sound upset about my loss? I should have a transcript of chat with a corpmate. I'll tell you now what I said then. I probably made their night. I saw it coming and jumped anyway. To see if they'd catch me - they're lucky they did. The two I saw had 3 more on the other side of the gate. I even tried to dump my 700m cargo so it would not be half destroyed and someone would get it. After, all I could think about was how lame their game choice was. Sitting on a gate. Hoping. And jump on a hauler. Which likely would be empty and no challenge. Nothing to brag about in corp chat. Well, now they have at least loot to enjoy from it. But they didn't get a fight. Neither did I. We could have saved everyone time by my just sending them money. Then they could go enjoy some real PVP. That loss is not me here crying about it. It's me here crying about how lame the entire situation was. Mostly for them.
What do your feelings have to do with anything?
From a strategic perspective, you undocked in a poorly fit ship.
You then blundered into a gatecamp.
You just said:
Quote: People like their chess match strategy. I guess I'd like more tactics. Less decision at undock, more in space.
You would like more tactics. Fine. What tactics did you actually employ? It seems pretty disingenuous to say, "I would like more tactics," and then claim that you basically intentionally suicided yourself into a gatecamp.
I feel fairly confident in saying that, had I been piloting that Nereus, even poorly fit as it is, it would not have died.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
10840
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 19:21:48 -
[57] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:[You will be told you are useless, I see they did that above. You will be ridiculed, you be told that you are on meds or something else like that, then some lame twit will come along and war dec you to be cheered on by other ladies, its how Eve is.
...also, welcome to the forums, where a small subset of the player-base are tiny-brained misogynists like Dracvlad.
What a barleyjack.
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
45
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 19:28:44 -
[58] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:[You would like more tactics. Fine. What tactics did you actually employ? It seems pretty disingenuous to say, "I would like more tactics," and then claim that you basically intentionally suicided yourself into a gatecamp.
I was in a fine ship. 3 stabs. Heavy tank. Drones, gun, neut. But you can only do so much. 5 to 1 and it's my fit, eh?
The only tactic was to turn back when I saw them on the near gate side. The only tactical option was to turn back. I gambled it was two; it was FW space, and large groups are rare. They attract fights. To be fair,, they probably were hunting, not camping. I didn't stick around to chit chat. No need to add a pod to the list.
I was ready for a fight to escape. You're right. I should not escape that. They didn't need stabs really anyway... It only took 3 volleys to end it.
But it is as I said, not really about my loss. That was inspirational. Not the point. Indeed, points (disrupt) aren't the end of the point (idea). |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
45
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 19:36:13 -
[59] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:... then claim that you basically intentionally suicided yourself into a gatecamp.
To be clear, I took my chances against what could have been two, turned out to be 5. I also made the tactical decision to give them 2 minutes after they jumped to follow them, expecting if they weren't camping they'd likely be gone by then. It is rare for people in low to hang on a gate.
So; tactical? Jump or not. Pause or not. No time after jump for more, but could have chosen fight back in a 5:1.
Strategic? Fitting. Which didn't come into play. Coulda made a different ship choice. Cloak perhaps. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1951
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 19:46:04 -
[60] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:[You would like more tactics. Fine. What tactics did you actually employ? It seems pretty disingenuous to say, "I would like more tactics," and then claim that you basically intentionally suicided yourself into a gatecamp. I was in a fine ship. 3 stabs. Heavy tank. Drones, gun, neut. But you can only do so much. 5 to 1 and it's my fit, eh?
Yep. It's your fit, to a large degree.
Stabs are a poor choice in general. On something as slow to align as an industrial, reality is that you're probably going to get hit with too many points, anyway. Add hictors, which don't give a single **** about your stabs, and you would be far better off almost anything else in those slots. Nanofibers or I-stabs. And a damage control.
I've put stabs on WH Epithals before, but that's really just due to the middling-high probability of a solo stealth bomber popping out on a POCO.
That gun is the epitome of useless (And, really, a faction blaster?).
As for tactics:
Problem #1: You warped directly to the gate. That was foolish. Had you warped to a safe or nearby celestial and scanned the gate, you could have seen that there were hostiles there. It won't save you every time - they could all be on the other side of the gate - but it's still a bit negligent to not even check.
A scout is obviously better.
I'm betting you jumped through as soon as you landed. There's always a chance you can bait them into engaging you there, giving themselves a weapons timer and preventing them from following you. You can soak a couple hits. Trying to warp away on the spot will force at least one to engage, while still leaving you close enough to the gate to hop through.
Now, here's where your bad fit comes into play:
There's a VERY good chance you could have escaped if you had fit a cloak and MWD. Not 100%, by any means, but still quite good. When you landed on the other side, it is VERY possible that you could have aligned, cloaked, hit the MWD, waited for it to cycle, decloaked and instantly warped, all without them ever getting a lock on you.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
45
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 19:55:07 -
[61] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:That gun is the epitome of useless (And, really, a faction blaster?).
Meh. Junk you have laying around the hangar.
Quote:Problem #1: You warped directly to the gate.
Nope. I jumped. They weren't on the side you warp to. They were on the blind side.
Quote:A scout is obviously better.
Its easy to solve every problem by adding more people.
Quote:I'm betting you jumped through as soon as you landed.
Nope. Told you I waited.
Quote:There's a VERY good chance you could have escaped if you had fit a cloak and MWD.
I could have gone cov ops. I could have gone through wh space.
All this is academic and not the point. |
Annemariela Antonela
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
346
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 19:58:27 -
[62] - Quote
Bro you just got some of the most rock-solid advice you are ever gonna get. Maybe you should heed it, instead of wishing the game was changed for your sake.
GÇ£Culture is like a smog. To live within it, you must breathe some of it in and, inevitably, be contaminated.GÇ¥
GÇò Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1952
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 19:58:53 -
[63] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:
I could have gone cov ops. I could have gone through wh space.
All this is academic and not the point.
Well, no, a cov-ops isn't really a replacement good for a Nereus. Additionally, my solution gives you a means to escape - not avoid, but actually escape - the bad situation you landed in.
You just claimed your fit was fine. Your fit was not fine, because it left you with no tactical options once you blundered into a bad situation.
You can't completely fail to employ any degree of strategic or tactical thinking and then complain that there aren't any tactical options. There are. You're not good at taking advantage of them.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
45
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 20:04:24 -
[64] - Quote
Annemariela Antonela wrote:Bro you just got some of the most rock-solid advice you are ever gonna get. Maybe you should heed it, instead of wishing the game was changed for your sake.
Thanks for the tip. I had no idea. |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
45
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 20:11:07 -
[65] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Well, no, a cov-ops isn't really a replacement good for a Nereus.
Different ship of course.
Quote:You can't completely fail to employ any degree of strategic or tactical thinking and then complain that there aren't any tactical options. There are. You're not good at taking advantage of them.
I give up. I'm not getting my message across and this is turning into a silly thread about telling me things I already knew. I don't need fitting advice; I have MWD cloak ships in hangars now. I was set up for a different kind of engagement. I'm not complaining about my loss... I'm not interested in even preventing it. Wasn't then. Still don't care now.
If you think this is about one encounter, you're sadly mistaken and I've failed to be clear.
Enjoy the game. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1952
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 20:18:25 -
[66] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote: If you think this is about one encounter, you're sadly mistaken and I've failed to be clear.
Enjoy the game.
The one encounter is merely an example being used to illustrate the fact that your statement about the lack of tactical options was demonstrably false.
As we've established, now, that there are numerous tactical options, the rest of your thoughts seem to be proceeding from false assumptions.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1314
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 20:43:25 -
[67] - Quote
Bumblefck wrote:Dracvlad wrote:[You will be told you are useless, I see they did that above. You will be ridiculed, you be told that you are on meds or something else like that, then some lame twit will come along and war dec you to be cheered on by other ladies, its how Eve is.
...also, welcome to the forums, where a small subset of the player-base are tiny-brained misogynists like Dracvlad. What a barleyjack.
I presume you reported my post hence the highlight., one can use turns of phrase without people getting all offended, its what adults do, when I was working in Lloyds of London I used to get a broker come up and say hello ladies, it was affectionate you know, he was a real sweetie too, used to have two pairs of glasses hanging on a chain.
What pray tell is a barleyjack?
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically a themepark for gankers
|
Poddington Bare
Angur Therapy
241
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 21:13:02 -
[68] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:when I was working in Lloyds of London
Dracvlad wrote:What pray tell is a barleyjack?
When I was...
...CEO of a Fortune 500 company*... ...secretly cured cancer and witheld it so big Pharma could cash in*... ...negotiated an interstellar peace treaty with secret Chinese colony on Mars*... ...invented the United Nations*...
*delete as applicable
...I learned to use the internet.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=barleyjack |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
10843
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 21:21:59 -
[69] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Bumblefck wrote: I presume you reported my post hence the highlight., one can use turns of phrase without people getting all offended, its what adults do, when I was working in Lloyds of London I used to get a broker come up and say hello ladies, it was affectionate you know, he was a real sweetie too, used to have two pairs of glasses hanging on a chain.
What pray tell is a barleyjack?
Sorry, you presume wrong Quote:one can use turns of phrase without people getting all offended Really? So language is a completely objective artefact, that has one meaning (in this case, the situation you outlined), and no other? You do realise that the context in which you used it originally was completely different to that which you just outlined now - basically, that of ladies somehow being twittering idiots running around mindlessly. Shall I refresh your memory? [quote]then some lame twit will come along and war dec you to be cheered on by other ladies
It's really obvious what you're insinuating with this phrase.
By the way, you've proven my initial point about language being completely subjective and meaning different things to different people.
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1954
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 21:48:21 -
[70] - Quote
Also, upon further reflection, you're already "always able to run".
If you're scrammed and burning away from the other guy, you're running. If you can't outrun him, you're still running... you're just being outrun.
Entering warp isn't just running - you are nigh invincible in a warp tunnel.
So, your suggestion is more accurately read as either..."Always able to run faster than the other guym" or, alternatively, "Always able to achieve temporary invulnerability."
The former is clearly nonsensical. We clearly can't have a situation where two people are always capable of outrunning each other.
The latter is even worse, from a gameplay perspective.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
|
Annemariela Antonela
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
348
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 22:05:14 -
[71] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Also, upon further reflection, you're already "always able to run".
If you're scrammed and burning away from the other guy, you're running. If you can't outrun him, you're still running... you're just being outrun.
Entering warp isn't just running - you are nigh invincible in a warp tunnel.
So, your suggestion is more accurately read as either..."Always able to run faster than the other guym" or, alternatively, "Always able to achieve temporary invulnerability."
The former is clearly nonsensical. We clearly can't have a situation where two people are always capable of outrunning each other.
The latter is even worse, from a gameplay perspective.
How about a big blue button that instantly heals your ship and breaks lock, linked to your credit card. Say two bucks a pop.
GÇ£Culture is like a smog. To live within it, you must breathe some of it in and, inevitably, be contaminated.GÇ¥
GÇò Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon
|
Poddington Bare
Angur Therapy
246
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 22:17:30 -
[72] - Quote
Annemariela Antonela wrote:How about a big blue button that instantly heals your ship and breaks lock, linked to your credit card. Say two bucks a pop.
May as well.
We are >< this close to buying magic ammo directly anyway.
Does anyone else view the CCP quote along the lines of "you guys are so happy with SP injectors we're going to change even more stuff" with anything other than total dread?
|
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
10844
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 22:23:41 -
[73] - Quote
Go for it
Can we have also just have a 'doomsday' button that pops your targeted opponent and invents some flimsy lore as to why you suddenly and mysteriously get a billion ISK every time you do that? Might as well, just cut the PLEX out and go straight to the source
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
|
Memphis Baas
1123
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 22:24:15 -
[74] - Quote
A few opinions:
1. You want to change a chess / strategy game into a DnD session. EVE is ultimately a strategy game; large alliances conquer the map with their "units" much like a strategy game. Units are rock/paper/scissors in chess and in strategy games; you don't see the queen suddenly developing magic attacks or the bishops starting to cast healing spells. The standard attacks that they have are it. The game of chess isn't about the valiant fight between the knight and the pawn when the knight takes the pawn; it's about winning the overall strategy / game. Basically, this is not the sci-fi dogfighting game you're looking for.
2. The way you fit your ship is important. People don't toss in "a few random items lying around", they min/max their ship fittings after long hours of reading, and careful consideration of each module. Those warp core stabs allow you to run away, but you can't target worth ****, which makes the guns redundant. You're playing the game wrong and then complaining that you lose.
3. Game is 13 years old... kinda late to be suggesting changes to the core gameplay, don't you think? |
Memphis Baas
1127
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 22:26:32 -
[75] - Quote
Bumblefck wrote:Go for it
Can we have also just have a 'doomsday' button that pops your targeted opponent and invents some flimsy lore as to why you suddenly and mysteriously get a billion ISK every time you do that? Might as well, just cut the PLEX out and go straight to the source
Better idea (for CCP): you shoot the doomsday, and you and everyone in the area of effect gets to push X repeatedly as fast as possible in order to either push the damage through or block the damage. Like in a console game. Only instead of X it's the "pay" button. |
Poddington Bare
Angur Therapy
250
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 22:31:08 -
[76] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Better idea (for CCP): you shoot the doomsday, and you and everyone in the area of effect gets to push X repeatedly as fast as possible in order to either push the damage through or block the damage. Like in a console game. Only instead of X it's the "pay" button.
No no, how about this?
Before you undock, you input your credit card details and an amount you are willing to put on deposit...say $100.
Then, when you get in a fight your amount is compared against your opponent - if yours is higher, you either win or get away and the amount is paid - if yours is lower, you get a limited timer to raise the amount to a level that would let you win or get away - if you are higher but are then outbid by your opponent, it goes to a full auction and everyone in local can bid amounts to add to one pool or the other until a winner is declared |
Annemariela Antonela
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
349
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 22:33:18 -
[77] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Bumblefck wrote:Go for it
Can we have also just have a 'doomsday' button that pops your targeted opponent and invents some flimsy lore as to why you suddenly and mysteriously get a billion ISK every time you do that? Might as well, just cut the PLEX out and go straight to the source Better idea (for CCP): you shoot the doomsday, and you and everyone in the area of effect gets to push X repeatedly as fast as possible in order to either push the damage through or block the damage. Like in a console game. Only instead of X it's the "pay" button.
We are finally getting somewhere. Financial transaction network latency worz will be the next meta. "Heh, what are u using noob, paypal?"
I feel I should also be treated to a motion-picture quality CGI cutscene any time I get a killmail. You know, for cinematics.
GÇ£Culture is like a smog. To live within it, you must breathe some of it in and, inevitably, be contaminated.GÇ¥
GÇò Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
46
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 22:42:56 -
[78] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:3. Game is 13 years old... kinda late to be suggesting changes to the core gameplay, don't you think?
Read the last section, first post. |
Darth Terona
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
202
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 23:42:09 -
[79] - Quote
Op has no pvp experience.
Come back and lecture us after you have at least tried to pvp |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7277
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 23:51:49 -
[80] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:When I started playing Eve I thought the same as the OP, still have a feeling that these modules are just too final, which is what I like about Elite Dangerous and the system suggested for Star Citizen, you can flee. Eve nope you are locked in unless you clear the attacker with the point.
I would like points to have the same chance percentage as ECM, would make the game more interesting for the prey, but of course most people who play this game don't care about their challenge they just want sure and easy kills so they would go up the wall at this suggestion.
Where it up to me, I would have copied the real world effect of too many targeting systems lighting up one target would cause disruption in tracking. Having once maintained and repaired such systems on fighter jets, I've seen many cases of this along with other "jam" situations real and imagined (by the flight suit insert , also known as the pilot).
A frigate could be locked by several frigates, but degradation occurs beyond that. A plurality of larger ships attempting to lock up a smaller one would even have less positive results, maybe even none of them being able to or suffering enough signal corruption to be worthless.
On the opposite end, smaller ship lighting up larger ones would be better. You can get a half dozen frigates on a cruiser for example.
But I'm thinking of fleets actually. No more F1 monkeys. Imagine these fleet battles if the fighting had to be squad versus squad, wing versus wing... instead of "Primary.... *SPLAT*... Primary.... *SPLAT*"
But those jams... since we can steer ships with controls and get a first person view, it would be a real boon to the game if, once jammed up to all hell, you could still fire your turrets and missiles in a "dummy mode" - like the bomb launcher: Straight ahead where you are pointing". This would make strafing runs possible. Not a sure bet for anybody but it's better than sitting there waiting to get killed because you can't do a thing.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
|
Darth Terona
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
204
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 00:28:18 -
[81] - Quote
I'm fine with the way it is and I'm a solo pilot
As someone that only does pvp I can tell you that the number of times I'm in a fight that is faggoty is far outweighed by the number of fights I get in that I have options to manuver or otherwise out think my opponent to secure some margin of success.
That being said, I'm quite **** at it so the number of times I have maintained my composure to exploit these chances are marginal. That don't mean they aren't there though.
Realizing these flaws in my piloting, and constantly learning and growing are a big part of what keeps me undocking for more.
Suggestions here would make my life as a solo pvp artist easier, yes. But I do this because it is hard. |
Eternus8lux8lucis
Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
639
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 01:07:00 -
[82] - Quote
The only solution Id come up with is this.... simply a chance to fail on new disruptors and scrams.
New skill Advanced Propulsion Jamming maybe a 5% bonus per level to success
New disruptors with +2 scram strength but DONT act like scrams do now so no shutting off MWDs but a range reduction. Say 15kms for T2, meta and T1 are lower and faction/DED/officer are more up to about 20kms Id say.
New scrams with +3 natural but range is 7.5kms for T2 with same spread.
The newness is that like ECM there is a chance to fail on every cycle and a failing cycle shuts the module off. This means that you have to reengage it after each failure providing not only RNG limits but human error in combat as well on top of it. Cycle times would be shortened to say 5s each so it would just simply be a module youd have to micromanage in combat.
Downsides: Why use it at all? All combat or PVE ships for the most part dont carry warp stabs anyways. A single point will usually hold them and it will never fail as long as you can keep range.
Who wants to micromanage more modules?
Failure rates means L5 for the new skill is mandatory, not optional really. Everyone whines they MUST train this like the learning skills to compete.
Bring friends and youll likely never have multiple cycle failures or having a mix of these and regular points would mean youd always capture and hold a target.
Upside: It is now a bit more of a chance for a target to get away 1v1.
So not really much upside for a lot of downsides. Having regular points/scrams work in such a way would cause a shitstorm for sure from the player base but would still be an interesting idea none the less. But I think itd be more a though experiment than a practical solution. People will hate the RNG/skill issues the most just like with ECM. But mah experience skillz!! Will be the cry refrain.
Because Eve is about set ups I think itd be more of the setup should be the thing to be made harder rather than the capture. Most fights are won or lost long before you get on grid imo. And that part of the game would be the thing that would be most interesting to change. That being said allowing some sort of chance issues in ALL areas of combat would be neat. Guns that jam and dont fire, random issues with shields, armor, or hull not just in ehp but in resist levels, random boosts like WH effects but limited to ships, mods, etc. Again the balance and coding of it would be intense and the trade off might not be worth it in the long run.
The randomness that makes life what it is, a random walk if you will, is an intriguing prospect but what do you gain with such issues? Now that we have unlimited skills maybe true randomness in gaming might be a thing. Procedurally generated worlds, coupled with fractal based growth patterns coupled with true RNG in all areas even at SUPER low levels for random time frames would present a very unique environment. But pity to the coders and balancers would be needed as they would need sympathy I think.
Imam: Have you heard anything I've said?
Richard B. Riddick: You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?
Imam: That's right.
Richard B. Riddick: Had to end sometime.
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1959
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 01:10:31 -
[83] - Quote
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:The only solution Id come up with
Solution to what problem?
This is all predicated on the OP believing that there's just no way to escape a point, which is clearly false.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Darth Terona
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
204
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 03:27:42 -
[84] - Quote
Eturnus you clearly have no idea what pvp is actually like.
Your shorter disrupter range will give rise to kite only ships.
Your chance to fail a scram/point every 5 seconds means your target can flee at any time and there is nothing you can do to stop him.. Align out and spam warp = instant/eventual evasion with no risk taken. Without reliance on skill to break your enemies tackle as well.
Your shorter scram range also would back kiting. It would also destroy scram range kiting
In your eve world, everyone flies tornados or groups of arty svipuls. There would be no other way to ensure victory other than high alpha damage.
Go back to your asteroid of your lvl4s |
Chopper Rollins
Lantean Empire
1233
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 07:04:06 -
[85] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Should I assume that your KB tells the full story of your experience, then? It can't. It doesn't show my wins. I win by avoiding and escaping. Your precious metric for judging doesn't define me or my playstyle. But you think it does. If I'm not exactly like you, I'm worthless. That attitude has done a lot of good in the world.
OH PLEASE. You get wrecked in this game and want it to change because it's uhhhhhhh 'boring'. Tens of thousands of people disagree but whatever. Then you tell a guy what he's saying makes him wrong and a bad person and extend it to all the world's problems. Your last loss is an industrial with 700m worth of stuff and a single faction gun in one of the highslots. Use a scout and stop being ridiculously bad. Do away with points indeed.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1318
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 07:07:15 -
[86] - Quote
Poddington Bare wrote:Dracvlad wrote:when I was working in Lloyds of London Dracvlad wrote:What pray tell is a barleyjack? When I was... ...CEO of a Fortune 500 company*... ...secretly cured cancer and witheld it so big Pharma could cash in*... ...negotiated an interstellar peace treaty with secret Chinese colony on Mars*... ...invented the United Nations*... *delete as applicable ...I learned to use the internet. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=barleyjack
My word you are a total loon, Lloyds of London is not a Fortune 500 company, it was at the time small entities Syndicates of wealthy people investing in insurance, I was an entry boy, interesting term that always got a giggle out of me, basically I was recording the data from slips onto our paper record system. Internet did not exist then either and we used punch cards, when I started working there it was a place of character with colourful characters who were normally the less intelligent upper class in the UK, I loved the place to bits, worked there for 6 years.
Saw the LMX death spiral in action which reminds me of credit default swaps, but I guess your too stupid to understand that, go and look that up on the Internet...
So you can look up a word on the internet, big deal I wanted bumble to say what it meant
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically a themepark for gankers
|
Chopper Rollins
Lantean Empire
1233
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 07:09:03 -
[87] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:I don't need fitting advice; I have MWD cloak ships in hangars now. I was set up for a different kind of engagement.
No. Three stabs, an ecm mid and a faction turret is not a fit for any engagement. Also it was a lowsec gate. Personally i scout through in a noobship. But i'm wrong, yeah yeah i know. Dude, it was a lowsec gate.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
|
Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
512
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 07:12:36 -
[88] - Quote
Personally I think it'd be a more interesting concept if a ship had a spool-up time for the warp drive similar to how aligning works now. But if you happened to take a certain degree of damage, the spool-up would malfunction and reset to a much longer timer.
Not a clue how one makes that fair without targetable subsystems, or some kind of special ammo though. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1318
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 07:15:13 -
[89] - Quote
Bumblefck wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Bumblefck wrote: I presume you reported my post hence the highlight., one can use turns of phrase without people getting all offended, its what adults do, when I was working in Lloyds of London I used to get a broker come up and say hello ladies, it was affectionate you know, he was a real sweetie too, used to have two pairs of glasses hanging on a chain.
What pray tell is a barleyjack?
Sorry, you presume wrong Quote:one can use turns of phrase without people getting all offended Really? So language is a completely objective artefact, that has one meaning (in this case, the situation you outlined), and no other? You do realise that the context in which you used it originally was completely different to that which you just outlined now - basically, that of ladies somehow being twittering idiots running around mindlessly. Shall I refresh your memory? [quote]then some lame twit will come along and war dec you to be cheered on by other ladies It's really obvious what you're insinuating with this phrase. By the way, you've proven my initial point about language being completely subjective and meaning different things to different people.
I was being affectionate in a role playing way using this wonderful man's use of the English language. Personally I find the HTFU group rather quaint in a pit bull terrier kinda way. I can't help it if you take it differently to what i intended and get all offended. How you detailed it which I underlined for effect sounds like you have a problem not me.
Seriously you need to grow up you are my dear sir a cracking bore of the first order.
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically a themepark for gankers
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1318
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 07:21:04 -
[90] - Quote
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:The only solution Id come up with is this.... simply a chance to fail on new disruptors and scrams. New skill Advanced Propulsion Jamming maybe a 5% bonus per level to success New disruptors with +2 scram strength but DONT act like scrams do now so no shutting off MWDs but a range reduction. Say 15kms for T2, meta and T1 are lower and faction/DED/officer are more up to about 20kms Id say. New scrams with +3 natural but range is 7.5kms for T2 with same spread. The newness is that like ECM there is a chance to fail on every cycle and a failing cycle shuts the module off. This means that you have to reengage it after each failure providing not only RNG limits but human error in combat as well on top of it. Cycle times would be shortened to say 5s each so it would just simply be a module youd have to micromanage in combat. Downsides: Why use it at all? All combat or PVE ships for the most part dont carry warp stabs anyways. A single point will usually hold them and it will never fail as long as you can keep range. Who wants to micromanage more modules? Failure rates means L5 for the new skill is mandatory, not optional really. Everyone whines they MUST train this like the learning skills to compete. Bring friends and youll likely never have multiple cycle failures or having a mix of these and regular points would mean youd always capture and hold a target. Upside: It is now a bit more of a chance for a target to get away 1v1. So not really much upside for a lot of downsides. Having regular points/scrams work in such a way would cause a shitstorm for sure from the player base but would still be an interesting idea none the less. But I think itd be more a though experiment than a practical solution. People will hate the RNG/skill issues the most just like with ECM. But mah experience skillz!! Will be the cry refrain. Because Eve is about set ups I think itd be more of the setup should be the thing to be made harder rather than the capture. Most fights are won or lost long before you get on grid imo. And that part of the game would be the thing that would be most interesting to change. That being said allowing some sort of chance issues in ALL areas of combat would be neat. Guns that jam and dont fire, random issues with shields, armor, or hull not just in ehp but in resist levels, random boosts like WH effects but limited to ships, mods, etc. Again the balance and coding of it would be intense and the trade off might not be worth it in the long run. The randomness that makes life what it is, a random walk if you will, is an intriguing prospect but what do you gain with such issues? Now that we have unlimited skills maybe true randomness in gaming might be a thing. Procedurally generated worlds, coupled with fractal based growth patterns coupled with true RNG in all areas even at SUPER low levels for random time frames would present a very unique environment. But pity to the coders and balancers would be needed as they would need sympathy I think.
A man of intelligence, I did not have the will power to further explain the ECM suggestion to the Pit Bull group but you sir did so and have my utter respect. Nicely explained.
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically a themepark for gankers
|
|
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
538
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 08:00:47 -
[91] - Quote
Annemariela Antonela wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Also, upon further reflection, you're already "always able to run".
If you're scrammed and burning away from the other guy, you're running. If you can't outrun him, you're still running... you're just being outrun.
Entering warp isn't just running - you are nigh invincible in a warp tunnel.
So, your suggestion is more accurately read as either..."Always able to run faster than the other guym" or, alternatively, "Always able to achieve temporary invulnerability."
The former is clearly nonsensical. We clearly can't have a situation where two people are always capable of outrunning each other.
The latter is even worse, from a gameplay perspective. How about a big blue button that instantly heals your ship and breaks lock, linked to your credit card. Say two bucks a pop.
PvP flag for consensual PvP only .... I'm sure someone will throw this into the discussion anytime now.
Don't anger the forum gods.
ISD Buldath:
> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
|
Poddington Bare
Angur Therapy
270
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 09:43:40 -
[92] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Prattling guff.
You're funny. But not in the way you imagine. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1319
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 10:05:48 -
[93] - Quote
Poddington Bare wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Prattling guff. You're funny. But not in the way you imagine.
It is best that you stick to one liners, it is safer for you
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically a themepark for gankers
|
Bunnie Hop
Bunny Knights
597
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 10:52:39 -
[94] - Quote
Whether you agree with OP or not is MEH (my pseudo word of the month), I love reading people's idea. With ideas come dialogue and with dialogue comes even better ideas. I think its safe to say a lot of what we experience in the Eve universe started out as nothing more than a forum post of ideas. So keep posting your ideas and again, MEH to the trolls.
ps: My idea would be for more space bunnies, more bunnies is always a good thing. |
Ibutho Inkosi
Irubo Kovu
152
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 11:17:54 -
[95] - Quote
What if no webs/scrams? "He who fight and run away live to fight another day?" Hmmm:
Engagements would then resemble real world naval history, which certainly has no 100% chance at anything.
The absurdity of two mods more powerful than any of our weapons "pretending to only" be able to affect propulsion, when they obviously infiltrate the shields (still up) the armor (still intact) and the hull (still intact) to "enter" the ship itself...think about it.
Gankers would have a very hard time devising a way to circumvent the mechanics to "generate content" using juvenile means that make the majority of all other "technology" in the game useless. Dunsels.
Only substantial, pre-planned, pre-organized a la Sun Tzu combat, or truly willing combat would ensue.
All the digitally brave guys running their mouths/keyboards about risk aversion, carebears, and how they're saving humanity with their "emergent game play" would at last be able to PUT UP OR SHUT UP, by not FLEEING a battle and allowing their apt opponent the kill shot...yeah...as if.
Lot's would happen if you dropped the two My Little Pony Magic Mods the "tough guys" can't live without.
You might have to actually THINK to play this GAME!
Yeah, right. And, pigs might fly out my butt.
As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.
|
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
627
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 14:28:59 -
[96] - Quote
Oh, now it's realism again.
Thing is - in Eve you cannot surround a position, cut off someones way of retreat, block someones path like Sun Tzu might have. They just hit warp and warp straight through everything in their way. Your whole "you'd have to think" argument would hold some water if there were other methods to prevent someone from going somewhere, but there aren't.
You know what really requires players to think? Disruptors, scrams and webs. Do you want to be in range of those, or don't you? |
Takari
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
512
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 15:00:30 -
[97] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:
Unless you're into one sided, boring fights so lopsided the only way to make them work is that you have to force the loser to keep playing to get your enjoyment.
Or did you mean you like Concord showing up to defend you?
The former, I rarely go anywhere where Concord is an issue, but holding onto people so they can't leave? That's my bread and butter baby.
Also the flip-side. If I'm flying through, get pointed/scrammed, try like hell to get out of range, fail, get blowed up. That is Love.
The only way to escape, is to not have shown up.
"Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things.
Welcome to EVE." ~ CCP Falcon
|
Ibutho Inkosi
Irubo Kovu
153
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 15:07:04 -
[98] - Quote
I love how the addicts puff themselves up and say things like "realism?" They like realism when it suits their ganking method. They cry foul and OP if it doesn't. Short Attention Span Theater at its finest.
As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1967
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 15:55:15 -
[99] - Quote
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:What if no webs/scrams? "He who fight and run away live to fight another day?" Hmmm:
Engagements would then resemble real world naval history, which certainly has no 100% chance at anything.
There's no 100% chance of anything now, except 100% chance of invulnerability while in a warp tunnel (some smartbomb weirdness aside).
As I said before, you can already run away. The difficulty is that you have to actually run faster than your pursuer. The OP was not asking for the ability to always be able to run, he was asking for the ability to always be able to escape by employing the cunning tactic of clicking a universally available UI button.
Quote: Gankers would have a very hard time devising a way to circumvent the mechanics to "generate content" using juvenile means that make the majority of all other "technology" in the game useless. Dunsels.
Ah. That's what this is about. Guess we've found the slowest gazelle at the watering hole.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2495
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 15:58:24 -
[100] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:Nat Silverguard wrote:you're drunk OP, go home. No, I'm a game designer. I'm just calling out design flaws.
In eve, everyone's a game designer
FETID now recruiting pvp pilots & corporations | lowsec pvp & piracy - Join FETID
Loyalist to Angel Cartel & Serpentis
|
|
Ibutho Inkosi
Irubo Kovu
154
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 16:15:31 -
[101] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Ibutho Inkosi wrote:What if no webs/scrams? "He who fight and run away live to fight another day?" Hmmm:
Engagements would then resemble real world naval history, which certainly has no 100% chance at anything.
There's no 100% chance of anything now, except 100% chance of invulnerability while in a warp tunnel (some smartbomb weirdness aside). As I said before, you can already run away. The difficulty is that you have to actually run faster than your pursuer. The OP was not asking for the ability to always be able to run, he was asking for the ability to always be able to escape by employing the cunning tactic of clicking a universally available UI button. Quote: Gankers would have a very hard time devising a way to circumvent the mechanics to "generate content" using juvenile means that make the majority of all other "technology" in the game useless. Dunsels.
Ah. That's what this is about. Guess we've found the slowest gazelle at the watering hole. Thanks for making my point for me. A game with this level of dynamism and layered nuance, activity and potential reduced to the "slowest gazelle at the watering hole."
By the way, there's a 100% chance to gank. Or, they wouldn't do it.
As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1972
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 16:40:52 -
[102] - Quote
Ibutho Inkosi wrote: Thanks for making my point for me. A game with this level of dynamism and layered nuance, activity and potential reduced to the "slowest gazelle at the watering hole."
By the way, there's a 100% chance to gank. Or, they wouldn't do it.
There really isn't. Ganks are generally successful, but that is largely by virtue of the gankers doing a fine job in selecting incompetently piloted ships for their targets.
That aside, disruptors are rarely a factor in high-sec ganking. The limited timeframe granted by CONCORD response makes it a high alpha/burst-centric operation. Most ships will be dead before they could have gotten into warp anyway.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Ibutho Inkosi
Irubo Kovu
155
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 17:55:31 -
[103] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Ibutho Inkosi wrote: Thanks for making my point for me. A game with this level of dynamism and layered nuance, activity and potential reduced to the "slowest gazelle at the watering hole."
By the way, there's a 100% chance to gank. Or, they wouldn't do it.
There really isn't. Ganks are generally successful, but that is largely by virtue of the gankers doing a fine job in selecting incompetently piloted ships for their targets. That aside, disruptors are rarely a factor in high-sec ganking. The limited timeframe granted by CONCORD response makes it a high alpha/burst-centric operation. Most ships will be dead before they could have gotten into warp anyway. Okay, even the best bicycle rider falls off the seat if he isn't paying attention. Any 99.999999% success rate for dessie ganking has to do with personal problems, not the nature of the task itself.
Why is it necessary to mischaracterize this? Could it be a guilty little secret that ganking takes no skill at all so the cover up is to confide that "really, there are skill things to this....it's not as easy as people think...." Ah. Yeah. Right. Sometimes the guy clubbing the baby seal misses and hits his own foot. Life happens. Fine.
As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1973
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 17:58:46 -
[104] - Quote
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Ibutho Inkosi wrote: Thanks for making my point for me. A game with this level of dynamism and layered nuance, activity and potential reduced to the "slowest gazelle at the watering hole."
By the way, there's a 100% chance to gank. Or, they wouldn't do it.
There really isn't. Ganks are generally successful, but that is largely by virtue of the gankers doing a fine job in selecting incompetently piloted ships for their targets. That aside, disruptors are rarely a factor in high-sec ganking. The limited timeframe granted by CONCORD response makes it a high alpha/burst-centric operation. Most ships will be dead before they could have gotten into warp anyway. Okay, even the best bicycle rider falls off the seat if he isn't paying attention. Any 99.999999% success rate for dessie ganking has to do with personal problems, not the nature of the task itself. Why is it necessary to mischaracterize this? Could it be a guilty little secret that ganking takes no skill at all so the cover up is to confide that "really, there are skill things to this....it's not as easy as people think...." Ah. Yeah. Right. Sometimes the guy clubbing the baby seal misses and hits his own foot. Life happens. Fine.
If it were as easy as you would like to pretend, you'd likely get out there and snag some of that easy money instead of crying about it interminably. ;)
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
632
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 18:10:45 -
[105] - Quote
An unsuccessful gank is a gank that doesn't happen. There are many freighter, industrial or barge pilots who know how to fly and fit their ships to not become a target in the first place. A freighter that has webs on him after every jump is not on grid long enough for most gankers to even bother. An industrial doing the mwd-cloak-warp trick on every gate may get slip through without ever getting noticed. A barge with 100k EHP usually doesn't even get touched.
On the other hand - gankers typically put at least some effort into finding out which targets they can take, and which ones they'd better let go. It's not exactly rocket science, but it's not like they just blindly shoot everything either.
Both avoiding ganks and ganking don't take a lot, but a bit of effort is involved on both ends.
What this has to do with the topic, though, I do not know. Disruptors/Scrams don't play that big a role in highsec ganking. It's nice to have them, but it's quite doable without them.
|
Memphis Baas
1130
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 18:13:19 -
[106] - Quote
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:Why is it necessary to mischaracterize this? Could it be a guilty little secret that ganking takes no skill at all
Ganking takes no skill at all.
Actually, many vs. 1 PVP takes no skill at all.
Actually, even with 1 vs. 1, or many vs. many PVP, the fight takes no skill at all; EVE ships are designed rock/paper/scissors from the undock, and there's nothing your paper can do to the scissors. Just like with chess, if you're in the wrong position, you're done; there's nothing you can do to save your pawn, queen, w/e. Unless the opponent makes rookie mistakes.
So the point is that all of us min-max our ships to kill by overwhelming force, not by a narrow margin or "skill," but "the enemy had no chance at all." It's the way war is. And thus, the decision to engage or run is instantaneous, as soon as you see what's on overview.
So why single out suicide ganking? Yeah they min-max for the kill, and only attack targets that are min-maxed for profit or mining yield or whatever. Otherwise they run, like the rest of the PVP playerbase, if a bigger group or a pvp-fitted group attacks them.
It's not a guilty little secret, and it's also not in need of being adjusted, as it doesn't use different rules of engagement than the rest of the PVP game. The only way to win a suicide gank if you're the transport or the miner, is to avoid it, and I'd argue that there's enough info presented via the map and the local channel lists to permit that. |
Celise Katelo
State War Academy Caldari State
185
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 18:35:47 -
[107] - Quote
You talk utter rubbish, its not bad game design. , go play Counter Strike if you want to just shoot someone.
World of Warcraft have a bloody Rogue, that can hold you in place longer then a ship in EVE online can.
Whats else.... has similar effects...
Mage can sheep you for a entire match.. well if you suck donkey balls at the game. My Hunter can trap you, till the next expansion shows up. Warlocks, Make you run about like ya on steroids. Priest, mind control you, till you walk off a cliff.
Yes i did the World of Warcraft post in EVE online forums.... , but these mechanics are just about the same as what EVE online use.
I can list other games that have similar mechanics, that have been about for 10years.
Edited, i forgot to add this part:
I just trained to use a "Heavy Interdiction Cruiser" , Onyx "cough" , i might pvp at some point.
Yeah lets all just hit F1, & do what ? How would Blaster fits, actually hit anything ? Alliance Tournaments would be super Poo to watch without such mechanics
I was going to write something else, but forgot what it was.. I went for dinner.. haha
EVEBoard ...Just over 30million skill points, each skill was chosen for a reason. I closed my eyes & clicked another skill to train... "BINGO...!!!" ... "This time i got something usefull"
|
Ibutho Inkosi
Irubo Kovu
157
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 22:27:12 -
[108] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Ibutho Inkosi wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Ibutho Inkosi wrote: Thanks for making my point for me. A game with this level of dynamism and layered nuance, activity and potential reduced to the "slowest gazelle at the watering hole."
By the way, there's a 100% chance to gank. Or, they wouldn't do it.
There really isn't. Ganks are generally successful, but that is largely by virtue of the gankers doing a fine job in selecting incompetently piloted ships for their targets. That aside, disruptors are rarely a factor in high-sec ganking. The limited timeframe granted by CONCORD response makes it a high alpha/burst-centric operation. Most ships will be dead before they could have gotten into warp anyway. Okay, even the best bicycle rider falls off the seat if he isn't paying attention. Any 99.999999% success rate for dessie ganking has to do with personal problems, not the nature of the task itself. Why is it necessary to mischaracterize this? Could it be a guilty little secret that ganking takes no skill at all so the cover up is to confide that "really, there are skill things to this....it's not as easy as people think...." Ah. Yeah. Right. Sometimes the guy clubbing the baby seal misses and hits his own foot. Life happens. Fine. If it were as easy as you would like to pretend, you'd likely get out there and snag some of that easy money instead of crying about it interminably. ;) Yeah...can't resist the typical response...nothing more to say so "crying" about it becomes the "player generated content". Don't these people know there's thousands of them out there turning themselves into walking cliches? Well. Maybe that's just a bit too complicated for some folks to grasp...like the "other" things this game has to offer.
Or...maybe....if his "peers" see the word "crying" they won't have to read the horrible words I wrote that made him go into this fit of cliche repetition in the first place! Maybe...."other people" will see his trip word and think, "Gee, you know since he's so internet savvy, and he said 'crying', all that text probably isn't worth reading. Let's assume he read it for us and ... and ...."
Yeah.
As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.
|
Eternus8lux8lucis
Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
641
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 22:50:02 -
[109] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:The only solution Id come up with Solution to what problem? This is all predicated on the OP believing that there's just no way to escape a point, which is clearly false. You didnt actually read everything I wrote did you?
Imam: Have you heard anything I've said?
Richard B. Riddick: You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?
Imam: That's right.
Richard B. Riddick: Had to end sometime.
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
47
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 23:00:12 -
[110] - Quote
It's interesting we'd go the whole thread and all people do is talk about points.
No interest in the other points in the subject? Still plenty of opportunity to flame me for thinking about changing PVE. I'm sure there's fire aplenty somewhere for all my heresy that'll never get implemented and wasn't even a request for change.
But. Points. That was the whole message. |
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1976
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 23:18:22 -
[111] - Quote
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Ibutho Inkosi wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Ibutho Inkosi wrote: Thanks for making my point for me. A game with this level of dynamism and layered nuance, activity and potential reduced to the "slowest gazelle at the watering hole."
By the way, there's a 100% chance to gank. Or, they wouldn't do it.
There really isn't. Ganks are generally successful, but that is largely by virtue of the gankers doing a fine job in selecting incompetently piloted ships for their targets. That aside, disruptors are rarely a factor in high-sec ganking. The limited timeframe granted by CONCORD response makes it a high alpha/burst-centric operation. Most ships will be dead before they could have gotten into warp anyway. Okay, even the best bicycle rider falls off the seat if he isn't paying attention. Any 99.999999% success rate for dessie ganking has to do with personal problems, not the nature of the task itself. Why is it necessary to mischaracterize this? Could it be a guilty little secret that ganking takes no skill at all so the cover up is to confide that "really, there are skill things to this....it's not as easy as people think...." Ah. Yeah. Right. Sometimes the guy clubbing the baby seal misses and hits his own foot. Life happens. Fine. If it were as easy as you would like to pretend, you'd likely get out there and snag some of that easy money instead of crying about it interminably. ;) Yeah...can't resist the typical response...nothing more to say so "crying" about it becomes the "player generated content". Don't these people know there's thousands of them out there turning themselves into walking cliches? Well. Maybe that's just a bit too complicated for some folks to grasp...like the "other" things this game has to offer. Or...maybe....if his "peers" see the word "crying" they won't have to read the horrible words I wrote that made him go into this fit of cliche repetition in the first place! Maybe...."other people" will see his trip word and think, "Gee, you know since he's so internet savvy, and he said 'crying', all that text probably isn't worth reading. Let's assume he read it for us and ... and ...." Yeah.
I'm sorry, but did you think your whinging deserve some sort of novel response?
Often times the "typical response" is typical by virtue of its accuracy.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Chopper Rollins
Lantean Empire
1235
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 23:53:23 -
[112] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:It's interesting we'd go the whole thread and all people do is talk about points.
No interest in the other points in the subject? Still plenty of opportunity to flame me for thinking about changing PVE. I'm sure there's fire aplenty somewhere for all my heresy that'll never get implemented and wasn't even a request for change.
But. Points. That was the whole message.
Confirming you've been utterly obliterated as far as points are concerned, let's see, PVE would be better if you had to commit to it? If you leave the anom/plex/belt whatever you lose what you were in space to hav a chance at? That already exists in a way, with finer points to stop people cloaky camping some sites. Wait are you saying you would like people to be able to opt out of combat at any time, but have to commit to PVE? You do understand that PVE content turns players into PVP content, right?
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
|
Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
628
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 00:01:32 -
[113] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:No, I'm a game designer. I'm just calling out design flaws.
What games have you designed that went on to be ranked as one of the top rated MMOs for well over a decade? Having been a gamer for over 15 years, I'd like to give those games a try, since you seem to know what's best. |
Ibutho Inkosi
Irubo Kovu
160
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 11:34:03 -
[114] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:I'm sorry, but did you think your whinging deserved some sort of novel response?
Often times the "typical response" is typical by virtue of its accuracy. In the words of the ancient troglodyte, "Don't flatter yourself."
As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.
|
Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
5334
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 12:06:45 -
[115] - Quote
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:I'm sorry, but did you think your whinging deserved some sort of novel response?
Often times the "typical response" is typical by virtue of its accuracy. In the words of the ancient troglodyte, "Don't flatter yourself." "I didnGÇÖt set out to be a one-liner comic" Gary Delaney
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ =ƒÅ¦ - my sandcastle
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
|
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17438
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 12:50:19 -
[116] - Quote
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:Okay, even the best bicycle rider falls off the seat if he isn't paying attention. Any 99.999999% success rate for dessie ganking has to do with personal problems, not the nature of the task itself.
Why is it necessary to mischaracterize this? Could it be a guilty little secret that ganking takes no skill at all so the cover up is to confide that "really, there are skill things to this....it's not as easy as people think...." Ah. Yeah. Right. Sometimes the guy clubbing the baby seal misses and hits his own foot. Life happens. Fine.
I will now point out that according to the largest survey ever done on freighters you stand a less than 0.1% chance of getting ganked over 2.7 million gate jumps in highsec. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17493
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 20:06:17 -
[117] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:Nat Silverguard wrote:you're drunk OP, go home. No, I'm a game designer. I'm just calling out design flaws.
No you aren't a game designer, and no you aren't "calling out design flaws", you're just bitching that you can't endlessly grind without fear of loss.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
49
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 20:18:02 -
[118] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:No you aren't a game designer...
I am. Not computer games though. Published and everything. I'd link to it, but I'm so disenchanted with the hostility and shallowness of the discourse that I can only believe people would out of spite trash my other arts. And what good would that do?
Look at you here? All anger and spite, flaming some stranger on the net. This encourages a belief in discourse?
Quote:, and no you aren't "calling out design flaws", you're just bitching that you can't endlessly grind without fear of loss.
I've said it before. In this thread. I lose things all the time. I don't care. I'm not even upset about losses. I frequently take risks. I don't find them bothersome... this is my main. Go look it up, killboard worshipper. I owned that Lachesis for 30 minutes, 230M down the drain just to test out recons.
See that's what's wrong here. Instead of talking, I'm written off. You assume that since you'd be upset if you lost isk, I must be too. And when I'm not, it's just confusing...
And you don't have time to be confused. Or learn. Or consider. Just flame and move on. |
Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
632
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 20:29:36 -
[119] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:I am. Not computer games though. Published and everything. I'd link to it, but I'm so disenchanted with the hostility and shallowness of the discourse that I can only believe people would out of spite trash my other arts. And what good would that do?
How do you account for the fact that EVE has been one of the top ranked MMOs for well over a decade, if the design is flawed? |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
49
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 20:37:59 -
[120] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:And when I'm not, it's just confusing...
And you don't have time to be confused.
My thinking went like this;
* Got a lot of junk to haul back to hub, but it's late and not a lot of time * Fit a Nereus with junk I have laying around to pick up my empty beer cans over 12 systems Fit is similar to fit I use in a Helios to escape decloaking solo ambushers in data and relic sites... not gonna survive a gate camp. And weejend night, so gate camp is likely... but no worries, its not stuff I need or care about.
* Notices 2 flashing red on local. Common for people to lay traps in pipes as I'm moving through. Maybe there's two. Two would likely have maybe 3 points between them. I got 3 stabs. I'll make it. And if not, I don't need this stuff.
* Jump... 5 guys. Well I'm toast. Burn back to gate? Won't make it. Guess I take my medicine... Perhaps I'll try to dump my cargo and these guys can have it. Too bad there's no piracy in the game; they'll not talk so a fun social arrangement will not happen...
"Odd. Who sits on a gate? Why? For money? I suppose that was good payout for them. What a yawdry way to make profits. I could have gotten away if I cared. Different fit, different path, different time..."
"Their game play depends on points. If I had a way to move away, they'd get nothing. Would there even be camps - a play style that seems to me unfun - if that was true? How would they play? What would it be like? How would the game empower their play style, a different play style?"
See I don't care. Its just a game.
|
|
Takari
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
513
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 20:39:25 -
[121] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:It's interesting we'd go the whole thread and all people do is talk about points.
No interest in the other points in the subject? Still plenty of opportunity to flame me for thinking about changing PVE. I'm sure there's fire aplenty somewhere for all my heresy that'll never get implemented and wasn't even a request for change.
But. Points. That was the whole message.
I'm not going to trek back to page one now since I already hit "reply" and I'm lazy but your points were No Concord, No points/scrams, change PVE?
The only one I took issue with was points/scrams change. The others I would have to see fleshed out a little more.
"Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things.
Welcome to EVE." ~ CCP Falcon
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1990
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 20:41:17 -
[122] - Quote
You can always tell someone doesn't care when they incessantly prattle on about how little they care.
Reminds me of a jilted teenage girl going on about her ex.
Especially in bulleted-list form.
Quote:"Their game play depends on points. If I had a way to move away, they'd get nothing. Would there even be camps - a play style that seems to me unfun - if that was true? How would they play? What would it be like? How would the game empower their play style, a different play style?"
Here's what it would be like:
They would sit on the same gate with SEBOed tornadoes and instantly blap you. You would come back here the next day and adamantly insist that while you don't actually care, the game needs to be changed so that doesn't happen anymore. For their benefit, of course. Not yours. You don't care, but they must have been very bored and were surely not enjoying themselves at all.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
49
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 20:43:54 -
[123] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:How do you account for the fact that EVE has been one of the top ranked MMOs for well over a decade, if the design is flawed?
It's pretty arrogant to say that, eh? I mean I don't even make games like this. I'm not very qualified. But it's what you do in this situation as a designer? What would I do differently?
I tried to outline it above. But the best I can do is principles. Obviously, they're doing pretty well without semi-pro/amateur help from me.
But, I thought, it would be a lot like exploration. You'd have to ambush people doing stuff in space. A hard counter is basically dull; you point, I stab. Those don't require thought. Or choice. Like say, how close do you orbit? Do you switch ammo?
The biggest thing I've learned in the thread is that the game isn't really meant to be about on grid during encounter choices - what I call tactics. It's mostly meant to be strategic. That's cool... seems a bit flat maybe, but hey.... |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
49
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 20:45:18 -
[124] - Quote
Takari wrote:I'm lazy but your points were No Concord, No points/scrams, change PVE?
The point was really thinking about slaying sacred cows and seeing if they made good hamburger. |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
49
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 20:47:59 -
[125] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:They would sit on the same gate with SEBOed tornadoes and instantly blap you. You would come back here the next day and...
Think about how their play style could be more enjoyable for them. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1990
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 20:52:03 -
[126] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:They would sit on the same gate with SEBOed tornadoes and instantly blap you. You would come back here the next day and... Think about how their play style could be more enjoyable for them.
Think about how you could form an actual argument instead of trying to offload that responsibility onto others.
You idly wondered, "Would there even be camps?"
I answered that question.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2498
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 20:53:35 -
[127] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:Cidanel Afuran wrote:How do you account for the fact that EVE has been one of the top ranked MMOs for well over a decade, if the design is flawed? It's pretty arrogant to say that, eh? I mean I don't even make games like this. I'm not very qualified. But it's what you do in this situation as a designer? What would I do differently? I tried to outline it above. But the best I can do is principles. Obviously, they're doing pretty well without semi-pro/amateur help from me. But, I thought, it would be a lot like exploration. You'd have to ambush people doing stuff in space. A hard counter is basically dull; you point, I stab. Those don't require thought. Or choice. Like say, how close do you orbit? Do you switch ammo? The biggest thing I've learned in the thread is that the game isn't really meant to be about on grid during encounter choices - what I call tactics. It's mostly meant to be strategic. That's cool... seems a bit flat maybe, but hey....
exploration is boring, i like shooting people
FETID now recruiting pvp pilots & corporations | lowsec pvp & piracy - Join FETID
Loyalist to Angel Cartel & Serpentis
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
49
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 20:56:39 -
[128] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:... they must have been very bored and were surely not enjoying themselves at all.
To me it seems boring. But hey, maybe they like it. It's a high traffic zone, perhaps they like instantly destroying a lot of cheap FW frigates? It doesn't seem to take a lot of skill, coordination, or execution. As you pointed out, there's merit in fitting well for it and the proof is in the doing.
But you're right. I shouldn't assume that just because it looks dull, hanging on a gate, not moving, waiting for something to jump so you can pounce and automatically win a "fight" that thats not the epitome of all possible fun.
Those are just my values. |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
49
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 20:57:27 -
[129] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:You idly wondered, "Would there even be camps?"
I answered that question.
Yup. You did. Rather well. |
Takari
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
515
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 20:57:28 -
[130] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:Takari wrote:I'm lazy but your points were No Concord, No points/scrams, change PVE? The point was really thinking about slaying sacred cows and seeing if they made good hamburger.
I don't see what good it does to speak in metaphor. I am absolutely the wrong audience as I cannot draw any relevant connection between beef and spaceship combat.
Bring data, bring ideas, bring big picture grandiose thought experiments and I'll read and consider. I may not agree but I'll read and think.
"Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things.
Welcome to EVE." ~ CCP Falcon
|
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
49
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 20:58:17 -
[131] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:exploration is boring, i like shooting people
You should try hunting explorers. |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2498
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 21:03:26 -
[132] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:Lan Wang wrote:exploration is boring, i like shooting people You should try hunting explorers.
i do, and miners and mission runners and pirates and whatever else i see when im hunting around but what good is hunting something if you cant make it stop?
FETID now recruiting pvp pilots & corporations | lowsec pvp & piracy - Join FETID
Loyalist to Angel Cartel & Serpentis
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1992
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 21:08:07 -
[133] - Quote
Quote:But, I thought, it would be a lot like exploration. You'd have to ambush people doing stuff in space. A hard counter is basically dull; you point, I stab. Those don't require thought. Or choice. Like say, how close do you orbit? Do you switch ammo?
Problem #1: You assert, as fact, things that are decidedly less than factual. You seem to think, for instance, that stabs are the go-to counter for points. This is a common belief among new players.
In reality, WCS are an EXTREMELY situational, niche module with only a handful of use-cases. If you're commonly fitting them, you're almost certainly doing something wrong.
The thing you think is a "basically dull" hard counter is more accurately called a "rookie mistake".
Gatecamps are a situation where they're likely to be LEAST useful: There will probably be a hictor. If there isn't a hictor, there will probably be too many points anyways. If it's in null, there will probably be a static bubble, or a dictor.
In short: It probably won't work.
Good usecase for WCS: Wormhole epithals. A lone stealth bomber sitting on a POCO is not a rare occurrence. There's nothing else you could really put in those lows that will save you if it happens, but he's probably not packing enough points to tie you down.
Quote:The biggest thing I've learned in the thread is that the game isn't really meant to be about on grid during encounter choices - what I call tactics. It's mostly meant to be strategic. That's cool... seems a bit flat maybe, but hey....
No, we've covered this. It's very much about both. You need to make good decisions in fitting to give yourself tactical options.
Consider, e.g.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqPBXKsKREc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i68ij_ZjahA
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17494
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 21:15:18 -
[134] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:Malcanis wrote:No you aren't a game designer... I am. Not computer games though. Published and everything. I'd link to it, but I'm so disenchanted with the hostility and shallowness of the discourse that I can only believe people would out of spite trash my other arts. And what good would that do? Look at you here? All anger and spite, flaming some stranger on the net. This encourages a belief in discourse?
I'm not angry or spiteful. I'm simply going by the observed facts. If you want to attribute some negative emotion to me, you can go with 'vague feeling of tiredness and disappointment'.
I've been reading essentially identical posts made by essentially identical "game designers" for 9 years now. The fact remains that it's ludicrously easy for an even minimally alert player to preserve his ship and escape from unwanted PvE. It takes a concerted, skilled and co-ordinated effort to trap someone who actively tries to avoid being caught.
Semi-AFK and actually AFK players not so much, of course, but hey. The game design issue there isn't warp scramblers; it's PvE that rewards and encourages bot-aspirant behaviour.
Anyway, it's kind of you to take an interest in my emotional well-being. And you can help! Thrill me! Inspire hope in me! Post something original.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
49
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 21:18:58 -
[135] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:In short: It probably won't work.
You still think it's a discussion about fits or me personally.
I don't know why I enable you. Maybe you seem to me like you'd be good at talking about the original idea. But you really are enamored of talking about fits and strategy.
Stabs are pretty limited. It's really about one ship escaping from one other ship. Some good uses;
* cov ops explorers * miners
You have to not care about range or fighting. But you see me putting them on a ship that isn't one of those and you lose it. I'm a terrible player... and will be forever. So why do you persist? Obviously I'm too stupid to learn, eh?
|
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
49
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 21:20:51 -
[136] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:The game design issue there isn't warp scramblers; it's PvE that rewards and encourages bot-aspirant behaviour.
Agreed. I mentioned it up front. Canned encounters are bad. Hence, "unknowable missions" in the title. |
Memphis Baas
1136
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 21:25:11 -
[137] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:[...] the game isn't really meant to be about on grid during encounter choices - what I call tactics. It's mostly meant to be strategic. That's cool... seems a bit flat maybe, but hey.... To be fair, this was (and still is) a design constraint imposed by the topology of the Internet; you can't really have a dogfight / tactical gameplay with 250 ms (across the ocean) network lag (each way, so 500 ms round trip) and 1 second server tick. So they minimized the FPS / dogfight / reaction tactics aspects of the game and designed it more for grand strategy, so that the lag can be hidden.
As a result of that decision, they could implement Time Dilation, where the server tick is slowed down to even longer, to allow a battle of 800+ vs. 800+ ships to still take place and not crash the servers. 800 vs. 800 dogfight with instantaneously responsive tactics is impossible, even with today's computers; there's a reason why FPS and simulator games are limited to 32 or so. All the MMO's where the gameplay is about tactics (for example WoW and SWTOR) have instanced zones with no more than 40 players, and it still lags out.
Ultimately, in a fight between two equally-equipped battalions, strategy matters more than tactics, so... I guess I would argue that the design choices made for EVE are in tune with each other.
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1994
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 21:33:45 -
[138] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:In short: It probably won't work. You still think it's a discussion about fits or me personally. I don't know why I enable you. Maybe you seem to me like you'd be good at talking about the original idea. But you really are enamored of talking about fits and strategy.
Is this some sort of ironic performance art? I responded to something YOU SAID.
You keep mewling about nobody seeing your "big picture", yet you are singularly incapable of articulating anything that extends beyond your own limited experience.
I like how, after this, you then go on to talk about... stabs. Is it okay with you if I respond to your comments about stabs? Because the comments you've made are illustrative of my overarching point re: you don't know what you're talking about.
Quote:Stabs are pretty limited. It's really about one ship escaping from one other ship. Some good uses;
* cov ops explorers * miners
Putting stabs on either of those is generally a poor decision. A stabbed Covops is so flimsy it can often be blapped without the use of a point at all. Why bother?
Same goes for most miners: Anything that isn't a procurer/skiff is probably dead before it can align anyway.
There are some uses for them on the mining frigates, particularly the prospect. Any barge interested in safety would be far better off fitting a higgs rig and mining aligned.
Both miners and covops are best kept alive through situational awareness.
Quote:
You have to not care about range or fighting. But you see me putting them on a ship that isn't one of those and you lose it. I'm a terrible player... and will be forever. So why do you persist? Obviously I'm too stupid to learn, eh?
There's nothing wrong with being a terrible player. There is something wrong with claiming the game needs to change based on opinions you've formed while playing terribly.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Chopper Rollins
Lantean Empire
1240
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 21:56:20 -
[139] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:"Odd. Who sits on a gate? Why? For money? I suppose that was good payout for them. What a yawdry way to make profits. I could have gotten away if I cared. Different fit, different path, different time..."
See I don't care. Its just a game.
The 700m hauler loss before you made this thread says otherwise. About the not caring. The claims you're a game designer but won't prove it because being challenged makes you *sadfaec*, that's amazing. You're sounding like a boxer who got flattened and is now suggesting ways boxing could be changed to be more interesting for all concerned. "I coulda dodged... I coulda won that... I coulda been a contender!"
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
|
Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
633
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 21:56:21 -
[140] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:It's pretty arrogant to say that, eh? I mean I don't even make games like this. I'm not very qualified. But it's what you do in this situation as a designer? What would I do differently?
I tried to outline it above. But the best I can do is principles. Obviously, they're doing pretty well without semi-pro/amateur help from me.
But, I thought, it would be a lot like exploration. You'd have to ambush people doing stuff in space. A hard counter is basically dull; you point, I stab. Those don't require thought. Or choice. Like say, how close do you orbit? Do you switch ammo?
The biggest thing I've learned in the thread is that the game isn't really meant to be about on grid during encounter choices - what I call tactics. It's mostly meant to be strategic. That's cool... seems a bit flat maybe, but hey....
I asked you a question based on your first post. No more, no less. You said the use of points is fundamentally bad game design. Fine, so you're saying an integral part of a game that's been hailed as one of the best in the business for over a decade is based on fundamentally bad design. I simply asked you to back that up.
There's a lot more to points/stabs. First, this is an MMO, so fly with friends. Use ewar, jam them, neut them out, have a fit where you can burn out of range, etc. Get creative. You're flying mainly in lowsec, that's more dangerous space than most of null right now. Get in a fleet and get creative with tactics.
The game has a huge exploration side to it. I solo roamed through WHs/deep null in a buzzard for a long time with one character, and only lost one in the last year and a half. There's a ton of strategy to that.
Fa Xian wrote:Think about how their play style could be more enjoyable for them.
You called me arrogant but then actually are telling other people what is enjoyable to them when playing a game? Really? |
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2003
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 22:26:46 -
[141] - Quote
Here, OP. Let's boil it down to your core problem.
Consider this demonstrably false statement:
Quote:The biggest thing I've learned in the thread is that the game isn't really meant to be about on grid during encounter choices - what I call tactics. It's mostly meant to be strategic. That's cool... seems a bit flat maybe, but hey....
This is ridiculous enough to call your literacy into question, as we covered it very thoroughly. You should get some first-hand experience.
So, do this:
Suitonia is a pretty good player. I posted some of his videos above.
Go pull one of his fits off a killboard, throw it together, and do some PvP with it. Since a good player made all of the strategic fitting decisions for you, and since the game isn't about tactical on-grid choices, you're sure to be fairly successful, right?
If you haven't watched the videos yet, don't. Try it yourself first. Then, watch the videos, and compare the decisions he makes (and explains) to the decisions you made, and the various outcomes.
Then, come back and tell us about it.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Conrad Makbure
Trident Expedition
81
|
Posted - 2016.02.18 03:12:59 -
[142] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:What if there were no warp scramblers or disruptors?
It seems to me you'd have vastly fewer kills. Anyone losing a fight would flee; neither hardcore PVP nor hardcore carebear would stick it out to the bitter end. PVP would be less about unfair, one sided ambushes... which to me seems to be almost the entirety of it. You'd have to use bait and tricks to win. And the game would have to encourage players to choose to fight - avoiding cookie cutter fits and single purpose ships.
Preventing players from fleeing is generally bad game design. It is a simple, hard counter, neither tactical nor strategic. You make almost no sacrifices to fit it. There's no point in trying to fit around it. The modules offer no value in other situations, making them boring.
It's odd to think about how much thought went into strategy and tactics; generally, the game is quite shallow overall. PVE encounters lack any kind of dynamic configuration - the enemies are static strategy (resists, damage) and even static position and composition. Much like this could really use a boost, it seems like PVP could also benefit from a change.
Let's think about it in general - to be out in space, vast, unknown... and the cops show up? It seems rather I should have a reason to be there, to stay out in space. And by staying there, I get benefits and incur risks. I fight NPC pirates - their loot is in space. If I flee, I lose the loot. If I want my loot, I fight to defend it. Imagine building a ship in space; perhaps with a minigame like hacking where you Tetris parts together using your construction ship. If you flee, your parts are stolen. If you want your assembly, you defend it. Mining? It goes into a can. If you flee, your ore is taken. If you want your ore, you defend it.
This seems more inline with the intended play style of the game. Pirates actually steal things not by blowing up helpless transports but by raiding. Nothing happens - save perhaps the market - in the safety of stations. In return for more dynamic play, restraints must be removed. People cannot be stopped fleeing. Godlike space police cannot show up to kill pirates in moments. Encounters cannot be canned.
I admit this is too much change for anyone to entertain. I believe it would be good change though. The spirit of the thought is some simple principles;
1) Choice over force 2) Risk versus reward 3) Dynamic over static
There's so much room to make a better game here. With all the baggage this game has, perhaps someone else will rise to the occasion. It seems unlikely EVE would be allowed to.
+1 to you OP. With regard to scram/disrupt, I've wondered what things would be like if we could bug out if we found ourselves in a bad matchup. Not with an overnight change, but maybe a new skill that reduces the effectiveness of scram/disrupt with 100% immunity at rank 5. Would people be more willing to venture to dangerous space with that faction fit marauder? What would mining and hauling be like? Exploring WH space going though multiple WH jumps? It'd be an improvement for the game, I think. People who stay to fight will do so because the want to kill the other ship and if not, then they run to refit or just leave. People would leave high sec for longer periods of time though. |
Fat Buddah
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2016.02.18 05:17:22 -
[143] - Quote
OP's premise, and his frustration,is that PVP is 'one sided', 'unfair', and 'dull'.
OP does not wish to admit that everyone in EVE, including OP himself, is given a fair and equal chance to train, equip, collect information, and gather and organise both material and social resources such that one's PVP target experiences 'one sided', 'unfair', and 'dull' combat loss repeatedly.
OP is too embarassed to admit that he failed to utilise the fair chances and opportunities given to him. He also denies the idea that maybe other people do better jobs than him in setting up winnable fights.
Hence OP is disguising his embarassment and frustration with 'OH, I'm a game designer' I know what I'm talking about, 'Oh, I lost 700M but it's ok', or 'I'm doing this for more fun for you people' |
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 :: [one page] |