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Breaking Trade Hubs: Why Interbus will fail.

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Riley Craven Caldari Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.05 01:40:00 - [1] For some time people have complained a lot about places such as Jita, though in fairness Jita might be the largest of such hubs, it is not the only one. Other places such as Amarr, Agil, Torrinos, and etc are also good examples of trade hubs. The problem of trade hubs is mutli-dimensional one. The first issue is locality. It has always been human nature to focus around points of centrality. Take the Middle East for example. Because of its central location (and without other trade ways to do trade through seafiaring etc) become one of the biggest trade hubs of its time. The way to address is this is to ensure that no one system is central to others (mainly referring to systems such as Jita and Amarr). What this means is that given a destination that no particular route will get you there faster. Inter region travel almost always requires you go through Jita or Amarr thus making them prime points of trade. So for example if there were 5 ways around Amarr that all involved the same travel time there would be no reason for people to go through Amarr. The second issue is regional Contracts. Currently you are able to browse contracts in any region, however you are only able to bid on one if you are in that region. This effectively means that people have to search 4-5 different regions for a decent price on high dollar goods. Because of the work involved most people prefer to trade in Jita since they know they can find the goods there, and they can find them cheaply. This issue can be fixed a number of different ways. First allow people to search for a specific type of good through all regions. Allowing searches in this case allows people to quickly spot the lowest price for the given item anywhere in the universe. It also is unlikely to add to server lag as you are searching for a specific item versus looking for many items. Further, allowing people to bid on contracts in different regions will also help this problem. This one is intimately tied to problem one however. Travel will always be a primary concern when looking for goods, and since people are unwilling to travel in most cases to find better deals, people are always led to Jita to trade. The third issue is the limited number of 0.0 entrances. Because there are so few of these people are led to offer goods on the most popular and highly travel entrances into 0.0. (Think Torronis and Agil here) By offering not one or two but NUMEROUS (like 10-20) more this means that people are unlikely to all choose one route. Of course this depends on where/how these new routes are implanted. But this is also tied to travel and decentralization as listed above. The problem is that it has the adverse affect on pirating because it spreads targets and thins them out (not that I really give a darn about pirates and their woes anyway as the flee bags) The fourth issue is playerbase. One could argue that the vast majority of players or located in the Lonetrek, Forge area. I would argue this has more to do with the fact that most players initially choose Caldari because of the philosophical beliefs of most people playing this game. While the solution here is to make some races (i.e. the amarr) seem less evil, this has the adverse affect of messing with the game storyline and also taking away from some of the creative flair of the game. The fifth issue deals with traders/producers. While again this all ties back to travel somewhat, it deals with a bit of a different concern. Because manafuctures have to mamize profit due to increased compition from others, time is a heavy factor in this. Because manufacturers are unlikely to be willing to drop goods (I am mainly referring to t2 ships and mods in this case) in 5-6 different systems over a region because of the time and travel involved, what we get instead is traders offloading on one or two spots in massive volumes and letting their goods sell out eventually. While this is a harder problem to fix, it relates heavily back to travel and centrality which I have outlined above. I am sure that these are not the only reason for the current problemsà However, Interbus is unlikely to solve them because finding goods will always be a problem and you will always have to be in the region in question you want to buy from. Interbus means instead that most people with start finding ways to travel to the frays of a couple different regions looking for better prices, but hubs will undoubtedly still exist as travel is not the only problem causing trade hubs. Interbus is nothing more than a band aid placed on a spewing artery. In the end the victim still dies.
Warrio	Posted - 2007.02.05 01:54:00 - [2] What is this Interbus? Are you talking about the NPC corp by the same name? It's not the size of the dog in the fight that matters, it's the number of dogs you warp in with.
Riley Craven Caldari Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.05 01:57:00 - [3] Originally by: Warrio What is this Interbus? Are you talking about the NPC corp by the same name? Interbus is an NPC corp that the devs want to make deliver player goods in empire for a fee soon(tm)
Warrio	Posted - 2007.02.05 02:12:00 - [4] Edited by: Warrio on 05/02/2007 02:09:16 Ah, thanks found some info on it too. Interbus sounds dumb. Maybe after that we could add in windriders who can take you straight from Fountain/Cloud Ring/Some other 0.0 place to Oggrimar (Jita)without the pesky need for jumpgates or the risk of being attacked on the way. Player driven economy = :-) NPC driven economy = :-( It's not the size of the dog in the fight that matters, it's the number of dogs you warp in with.
Samirol OctoberSnow Corp	Posted - 2007.02.05 02:32:00 - [5] hm, i believe hubs go with the mission runners, spread out the missions, you spread out the hubs. Move level 4s above q 0 to low sec, buff up the rewards, and allow the bold to make a bunch of money. I buy insane sigs, mail me ingame.
Sazumaan Johnza	Posted - 2007.02.05 03:19:00 - [6] To fix: 500% sales tax in Jita, -25% sales tax in 20 remote systems. Advertise remote systems in Jita. If 20 remote systems become swamped, raise tax to 500% there and select another 20 different systems.
Richard Masterson FW Inc Kith of Venal	Posted - 2007.02.05 04:41:00 - [7] You mention that the problems faced by trade hubs is a multi-dimensional one. I'll not argue with that. However, you have oversimplified Interbus. I don't know what the final form of Ibus will take, but I am sure that it will have more than one use. Please take, for example: 1. Producers now have the ability to buy raw materials from trade hubs and then sell the finished goods in the trade system, all without ever having to actually enter the system itself. 2. Traders now have the ability to recognize a demand in several regions for several different goods. Ibus will allow them to exploit these demands over several regions at the same time. Although traveling will still be required (or an army of alts) for marketing of goods, the time involved will be exponentially reduced. 3. Individuals and corporations will be able to plan ahead and stockpile goods (ships, ammunition, minerals) in advance, without having to dedicate time to the logistics of moving said items. Know you want (but don't need) that Drake but don't want to go to Jita, some 20 jumps away? Mail away for it. 4. As far as PvP implications, corporations and alliances will now be able to move massive amounts of material in preparation for a future campaign whilst engaged elsewhere! More importantly, this can be put on the individual's timeline: "Sometime this week make sure you ship two weeks worth of PvP equipment to XXXXX," instead of having to coordinate individual asset movement via freighters. I know that individually, these will not add up to the desertion of trade hubs. I have no doubt, however, that with time people will try one or two of the above aspects, and learn to use Ibus to their advantage more often. What that means to us? Fewer people traveling. Less server load due to jump-ins and -outs. Fewer traffic jams. More time doing fun stuff.
Riley Craven Caldari Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.05 04:53:00 - [8] Originally by: Samirol hm, i believe hubs go with the mission runners, spread out the missions, you spread out the hubs. Move level 4s above q 0 to low sec, buff up the rewards, and allow the bold to make a bunch of money. While missions runners are part of the problem they are not a significant one of note. The reason I say this is that they do not need to have massive hubs to support them, and dont generally have to worry about findings goods and ship to fly, especially the end types. The vast majority of missions runners *** LP to get rewards or * isk to fit a ship out to *** more isk. While they do contrbiute to the number of people in the system they do not in general facilate trade hubs themselves.
Riley Craven Caldari Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.05 04:54:00 - [9] Originally by: Sazumaan Johnza To fix: 500% sales tax in Jita, -25% sales tax in 20 remote systems. Advertise remote systems in Jita. If 20 remote systems become swamped, raise tax to 500% there and select another 20 different systems. This like interbus is only a band aid. You, like ccp, are not addressing the root cause of the problem. Taxing jita will only make people move one system over or some other silly method around it.
Riley Craven Caldari Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.05 05:02:00 - [10] Originally by: Richard Masterson You mention that the problems faced by trade hubs is a multi-dimensional one. I'll not argue with that. However, you have oversimplified Interbus. I don't know what the final form of Ibus will take, but I am sure that it will have more than one use. Please take, for example: 1. Producers now have the ability to buy raw materials from trade hubs and then sell the finished goods in the trade system, all without ever having to actually enter the system itself. 2. Traders now have the ability to recognize a demand in several regions for several different goods. Ibus will allow them to exploit these demands over several regions at the same time. Although traveling will still be required (or an army of alts) for marketing of goods, the time involved will be exponentially reduced. 3. Individuals and corporations will be able to plan ahead and stockpile goods (ships, ammunition, minerals) in advance, without having to dedicate time to the logistics of moving said items. Know you want (but don't need) that Drake but don't want to go to Jita, some 20 jumps away? Mail away for it. 4. As far as PvP implications, corporations and alliances will now be able to move massive amounts of material in preparation for a future campaign whilst engaged elsewhere! More importantly, this can be put on the individual's timeline: "Sometime this week make sure you ship two weeks worth of PvP equipment to XXXXX," instead of having to coordinate individual asset movement via freighters. I know that individually, these will not add up to the desertion of trade hubs. I have no doubt, however, that with time people will try one or two of the above aspects, and learn to use Ibus to their advantage more often. What that means to us? Fewer people traveling. Less server load due to jump-ins and -outs. Fewer traffic jams. More time doing fun stuff. Number 1 does nothing to address the trade hub itself, in fact if anything it only contributes to them. Number 2 Again while this might be nice for traders, it doesnt address market hubs. While it cuts down on travel for traders it doesnt address the fact that buyers will still go towards central systems. Number 3 is unlikely as the cost to do so would be prohibitive as I assume ccp would have the fee based on the weight of goods much like the current FedEx. That would be the only way to do it that would make since. Number 4 falls under the same reasoning as number three. Additionally, I dont like either of the implications that you propose because eve is about logistics as well as many other things. Finding ways around stuff you should do yourself and have planned out is not only bad, but further makes the arguement that some people now fear of ccp making the game WAYYY too easy to acomodate newer players. You can see my fear of this, because with features like this (for starters that arent well thought out) you have to wonder where ccp plans to stop in all this madness.
Ascelot Junior Caldari Redneck Revenge	Posted - 2007.02.05 06:18:00 - [11] repeat after me: there is no problem with Jita - Junior
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.05 06:24:00 - [12] yeah I dont get the obession with breaking hubs, it is perfectly normal to have them... sure, it laggy when theres TONS of ppl there..but thats an hardware/code problem!!! I fail to see why CCP tries to do what will fail..(hey, Eve WILL grow right? we are gonna get more players right??...) is a bandaid solution that well, .. isnt gonna work. just wait till we get 50k or 70k users online, then the problem will manifest itself again. and yeah, the whole interbus thing feels like is dumbing down the trading game..(location wont matter if everything is delievered by NPCS..)... not to mention that it will hurt those trader who has the balls to go to low sec to sell their stuff.... -- Today my drones attacked a brothel without even being told too. Either they objected to the establishment or they heard about the hot drinks machine in there... Yakumo
WarMongeer	Posted - 2007.02.05 06:46:00 - [13] Interbus is a solution to what? People *****ing about having to travel? Seriously, I'm trying to understand the impetus for such a change...is it the lag? I really don't see the problem with trade hubs. They tend to make the game feel more...human.
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2007.02.05 06:51:00 - [14] Originally by: Riley Craven .. decent price on high dollar goods .. I want my ISK's back!! Playing Caldari-Online as a Amarr specced is PURE Hardcore
Faith Black Minmatar Rolls Roids	Posted - 2007.02.05 08:24:00 - [15] Edited by: Faith Black on 05/02/2007 08:22:31 Can't say that I like the idea of npc delivered goods, except they make it expensive. If I produce or trade, I earn some of my isk by bringing stuff to places, where it is needed. Because people are of often lazy and rather pay a bit more instead of traveling 5 jumps. I know it from myself. Travelling 5 jumps to save a few hundred k on a single item isn't worth it e.g. for mission runners, but traders and producers can live from those differencies. If you can get everything delivered by npcs and it's cheap, then they simplify the market and business opportunities for traders and producers are lost. ------ Who wants to be Caldari, if he could be 1337 instead ? Minnie 4tw ! ^^
tiewan	Posted - 2007.02.05 08:26:00 - [16] I think it is silly to speculate on such details when no one knows how this will be implemented. I'll decide if I like it or if it solves any problems once I get to use it and see it in action.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.02.05 08:31:00 - [17] Interbus would work. Buy a mod in the same region, interbus will offer to transport it for a fee either in proportion to the size of hte mod, or the average regional price. Once accepted, interbus will transport it in some predetermined, per-jump time. From 30seconds a jump, to 1minute. So, buy mods from all over, wait 10min., POW, all your fits with less travel. ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
Faith Black Minmatar Rolls Roids	Posted - 2007.02.05 08:36:00 - [18] Edited by: Faith Black on 05/02/2007 08:33:41 Originally by: tiewan I think it is silly to speculate on such details when no one knows how this will be implemented. I'll decide if I like it or if it solves any problems once I get to use it and see it in action. If they implement it silly and destroy some valuable parts of the game with it, then they surely won't take the change back. Devs never take big changes back. That's why I rather critizize now. Making everything more convinient for lazy players just helps the mindless grinders, because they give nothing about how they get their stuff, only that it goes fast and cheap. Solo thinkers / grinders would also be happy, if they could buy all they need from a fully seeded npc market directly where they need it. ------ Who wants to be Caldari, if he could be 1337 instead ? Minnie 4tw ! ^^

Oveur	Posted - 2007.02.05 09:26:00 - [19] Originally by: Faith Black Edited by: Faith Black on 05/02/2007 08:33:41 Originally by: tiewan I think it is silly to speculate on such details when no one knows how this will be implemented. I'll decide if I like it or if it solves any problems once I get to use it and see it in action. If they implement it silly and destroy some valuable parts of the game with it, then they surely won't take the change back. Devs never take big changes back. That's why I rather critizize now. Making everything more convinient for lazy players just helps the mindless grinders, because they give nothing about how they get their stuff, only that it goes fast and cheap. Solo thinkers / grinders would also be happy, if they could buy all they need from a fully seeded npc market directly where they need it. You should listen to Faith Black, you didn't even get the purpose correctly, which you would know, had you read what I said about Interbus. The concept, is limited to Constellations and the purpose is to dispurse the load of the market hub to multiple systems (Read: Constellations), not to make it easier for anyone. Senior Producer EVE Online

Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.05 09:45:00 - [20] Wouldnt it be better to just change the whole concept of Jita? What would happen if instead of making Jita like any other system, you make it into some sort of station. As in, any gate that currently loads you into the Jita system, instead of putting you in a system, it puts you directly into the station environment. It would solve the lag problem IMO, and also solve the general agglomeration problem without having to make an 'interbus'. Jita would be the natural trade hub for the whole game, but without the associated lag. All you would really need is to program then a way to choose which system you jump out to when leaving Jita. And you could even restore some of the gates leading to Jita, to make sure that any specific system bordering Jita doesn't get swamped with the traffic.

Oveur	Posted - 2007.02.05 09:51:00 - [21] Originally by: Malachon Draco Wouldnt it be better to just change the whole concept of Jita? What would happen if instead of making Jita like any other system, you make it into some sort of station. As in, any gate that currently loads you into the Jita system, instead of putting you in a system, it puts you directly into the station environment. It would solve the lag problem IMO, and also solve the general agglomeration problem without having to make an 'interbus'. Jita would be the natural trade hub for the whole game, but without the associated lag. All you would really need is to program then a way to choose which system you jump out to when leaving Jita. And you could even restore some of the gates leading to Jita, to make sure that any specific system bordering Jita doesn't get swamped with the traffic. This would simply kill Jita and move the hub elsewhere. The problem isn't Jita the solar system, it's all market hubs which will in the end succumb to the massive load as long as they are only existant in a single solar system. Senior Producer EVE Online

Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.05 10:00:00 - [22] Originally by: Oveur Originally by: Malachon Draco Wouldnt it be better to just change the whole concept of Jita? What would happen if instead of making Jita like any other system, you make it into some sort of station. As in, any gate that currently loads you into the Jita system, instead of putting you in a system, it puts you directly into the station environment. It would solve the lag problem IMO, and also solve the general agglomeration problem without having to make an 'interbus'. Jita would be the natural trade hub for the whole game, but without the associated lag. All you would really need is to program then a way to choose which system you jump out to when leaving Jita. And you could even restore some of the gates leading to Jita, to make sure that any specific system bordering Jita doesn't get swamped with the traffic. This would simply kill Jita and move the hub elsewhere. The problem isn't Jita the solar system, it's all market hubs which will in the end succumb to the massive load as long as they are only existant in a single solar system. You misunderstand I think. I am not suggesting removing Jita. Quite the contrary, it would make Jita THE place to do business, but without the lag. Simply put, what I would suggest is making Jita the system, into Jita the station. And then make all the accessgates that currently lead to Jita the system, the accesspoints for Jita the station. Then Jita is still the perfect tradehub, even more so than currently with all the lag.
Kiyano Caldari Star Fraction Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.05 10:03:00 - [23] I for one think Interbus will work, because I don't intend to ever set foot in Jita again once its implimented, unless i have to travel through it on a AP route. I'm sure there are others out there who share the same opinion, and if there are enough of them then at least it will have done something to resolve the issue.
Mashie Saldana Minmatar HOW Industries	Posted - 2007.02.05 12:02:00 - [24] How about changing the code so it can be more than one node per solar system as well as adding on the fly load balancing? That way no lag should exist as it only will be a maximum of 250 players per node (35k players, 140 nodes). If you then get 1000 visotors in Jita you will have 4 nodes serving them happily. To get something like this working might not be possible depending on how the current system is designed. However if you get it working I have a feeling even roaming fleets will be a smoother experiance as nodes will follow them across systems not to mention as soon as more people join EVE all you have to do is add more nodes to keep the player / node ratio at an acceptable level.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.02.05 12:55:00 - [25] Edited by: Andrue on 05/02/2007 12:51:46 Originally by: Mashie Saldana How about changing the code so it can be more than one node per solar system as well as adding on the fly load balancing? That way no lag should exist as it only will be a maximum of 250 players per node (35k players, 140 nodes). If you then get 1000 visotors in Jita you will have 4 nodes serving them happily. To get something like this working might not be possible depending on how the current system is designed. However if you get it working I have a feeling even roaming fleets will be a smoother experiance as nodes will follow them across systems not to mention as soon as more people join EVE all you have to do is add more nodes to keep the player / node ratio at an acceptable level. What makes you think they aren't trying to do that? Making such a drastic and far reaching change to something as complicated as Eve won't happen overnight.It takes an incredible amount of planning. Quite possibly more planning than implementing the original system. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] Please don't read this signature.
Lucifer Fellblade Ore Mongers SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.05 12:57:00 - [26] Originally by: Warrio Edited by: Warrio on 05/02/2007 02:09:16 Ah, thanks found some info on it too. Interbus sounds dumb. Maybe after that we could add in windriders who can take you straight from Fountain/Cloud Ring/Some other 0.0 place to Oggrimar (Jita)without the pesky need for jumpgates or the risk of being attacked on the way. Player driven economy = :-) NPC driven economy = :-( Jump Clones? ------
Kylania Gallente Phoenix Industries	Posted - 2007.02.05 14:30:00 - [27] Do players even understand the concept of constellations enough to make use of a constellation based commerce system? I for one couldn't name you what constellation any system is in, much less what other systems are in the same constellation as Jita or any other trade hub. -- Lil Miner Newbie Skills Roadmap \| How to Build from a BPO
Sirial Soulfly	Posted - 2007.02.05 15:01:00 - [28] Edited by: Sirial Soulfly on 05/02/2007 14:57:24 Personally I think adjusting the contract system back to have the same amount of usability as escrow had will help the trade hub problem somewhat. But knowing ccp it will take a long time before they will admit to it.
Mashie Saldana Minmatar HOW Industries	Posted - 2007.02.05 15:02:00 - [29] Originally by: Andrue What makes you think they aren't trying to do that? Making such a drastic and far reaching change to something as complicated as Eve won't happen overnight.It takes an incredible amount of planning. Quite possibly more planning than implementing the original system. Yes it will be a LOT of work to get something like this working so I really hope CCP started the development a while ago. The recent addition of nodes did nothing to help a system like Jita since a single dedicated node is all it ever can use. If I read some old blogs/dev posts correct the node allocation for each system is set during DT based on the previous 5-7, not an ideal solution for roaming fleets.
Saladin Minmatar Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.05 15:16:00 - [30] So this interbus thing completely eliminates the need for travel? Whats next, remote control PvP? ----

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