It's worth pointing out that the attraction of insects to vinegar or sugar has, so far as I know, not been studied. (Or if it has, I can't see the paper.)

However, a more appropriate aphorism would be "You catch more flies with **** than vinegar." (A far more observable thing.)

The point being that flies like ****. Ask an Eve player if they like to be punished, and the answer is a resounding no.

And I think Pedro has decided to ignore me

I think we should forbid people docking in NPC stations if they have a negative faction standing, corp standing or security status. I think NPC stations should be forbidden to people who hold sovereignty. I think if your corporation standings to a faction are negative, you shouldn't be able to interact with anything in their space.

All of these are punishments that would force people to move to Citadels. All of them will be condemned roundly, I imagine, by Code. and null-sec alliances for being 'anti-sandbox'.

Ah, you think of it as banning, whereas I see it only as a sufficient method to force people to use these new Citadels.

How about Docking Fees then? 100 million ISK every time. They're not banned, but it's a strict punishment.

(I fully expect to see these comments from all of us purged by the ISD, but let's keep the farce going for as long as we are able.)

Question is

Who really want to get their stuff from different citadels around EVE?

(Quoting you because you can use grammar and capitalisation correctly.)

This argument is based on the false premise that services should and will always cost ISK to run: CCP decides if services will cost ISK, or if their fuel costs will be negated via structure bonuses. If Citadels are "specialised towards corporate support and defence", it is easily possible that the market module will have a nullified fuel cost.

Furthermore, even if CCP decides that the market modules' cost won't be nullified, they can choose to set it as low or high as they wish: the belief that the market module won't be possible to fund without NPC station nerfs is unfounded. An argument based on this point is essentially unreliable.

I accept the point that NPC market fees are low. However, the incentive of trading at the lowest possible fees (or lower!) is going to have an attraction, though you deny it. We know that lower taxes are a pull factor in Eve, otherwise no traders would wish to grind for standings, or pay to have others grind for them. Why would easy access to low taxes not be a pull factor?

If you believe that low taxes will bring in no ISK, then you need to look at Merchant Monarchy and Eve Prosper and see how much those two pay in with low standings. I assure you it's not a small amount.

Edit: at 1800 sales per day and ~12 million tax per sale, that's a 21.6 billion ISK of tax that could go into a Citadel owner's pockets. In a month that's easily enough to fund an XL and fuel/rigs. By my calculatons ~12 mil is the lowest possible tax rate with current plex prices.

Citadels will be competitive in systems that have no stations.
Aside from mediums for corp use... why would you put one in systems with more that one station.

And that Ladies and gentlemen, is the Killer feature!

There is absolutely no reason to drive people out of NPC station using punishment mechanics.

Build it better and they will come.

Except they aren't.
They may be highly familiar with game systems, that does not mean they are highly familiar with what game play is like for anyone not part of the giant null groups. The two are totally different things, and often mean that said people take a very biased view on what the game systems should be like because of their experiences and the attitude that is pervasive in null culture in EVE.

And dismissing the experience of everyone else is exactly symptomatic of that null culture, which is designed around screwing over everyone but your select group for your benefit. Hence why the scepticism over how the loudest voices in support of this are coming from people like baltec who is well known for wanting to use a massive stick in all areas of gameplay to drive people to do exactly what he wants them to do, either as team mates, market serfs or prey.

But if CCP want to keep listening to those voices and ignoring all the moderates because enough circular arguments are used, then it's their game.

Give one example of something that negatively affect gameplay in order to drive people in another direction.

There is a certain Much ado about nothing to this thread as a whole, but I think the main concern that Gevlon expressed is a reasonable concern: The isk potential for large ISK holder to collude to never attack each other's "market hubs" would be very high. The issue with that is a simple one: their collusion mean fewer fights and less isk being destroyed and thus removed from the game.

Is it a merely theoretical concern, or does it have a basis in game fact?

True, but given the volume of trade conducted in Jita alone, compared to anywhere else, its not an unattractive number. Whatever the number is, however, would it be high enough to entice rivals to put aside differences and come to an agreement to not threaten each others' market Citadels?

It really doesn't matter what possible benefits there may be to using Citadels as markets, when like anything player run in this game they will be so open to manipulation and scamming, by the owners.



A few what if's -
Does ccp have a plan for if / when too many Xlarge market Citadels die and no-one is prepared to spend a hundred billion plus each time building more?

What about the owners who after being harassed for months just decide it isn't worth the effort and pull them down, leaving only the well known scamming and thieving groups with a monopoly?

Have CCP even taken into account the type of people who play eve

Because by threatening to ban me personally from PLs "new Doxie" hub you can make me do things. EG.

stop selling my plex for more then 1 billion

don't list veldspar for more then x

no buy orders as I am not a licensed trader. If I want to be one apply on the website and pay my one plex a month fee for the privilege.

no entosising PL space. seriously

you ganked a pl alt. bye bye.

the list goes on and on.