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WarDec's need to be a more serious affair.

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Suren Filax	Posted - 2007.02.07 20:41:00 - [31] So all the high sec isk farmers can sit in 1.0 all day and be even more invulnerable? With a war dec, the 'victim' corp automatically has an opportunity to defend itself, the defending corp can shoot back. It's their option if they don't want to. And even with the current system, there's still NPC corps for those who wish to farm level 4s all day on their own This is madness
Louis DelaBlanche Cosmic Odyssey Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.07 20:43:00 - [32] in a way war dec griefers are little different to ore thieves (or worse those scuzzbags who move ur ore into their own can hoping ur dumb enough to get flagged). Alot of ppl hate them. theres alot of ppl who think EVE would be a better place without them. But there really isnt much that can be done about them without also negetively affecting the play of other "non-griefers". Personally, I think theres only 1 thing that needs to be changed about the war dec system. & that is, when you declare war & instanly retract it, you shouldnt be able to shoot ur victims for 24hours. If nothing else, its darn annoying.
000Hunter000 Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.02.07 20:44:00 - [33] hmm 1 bill is a tad much perhaps Why not make it like u said, u pay per member in your corp, 1 member? 1 mill, 10 members? 10 mill and so on to say a max of 100 mill, starting fee at 10 mill a week perhaps? also no wardeclaring the same corp within 1 month after the last war has ended. (i got wardect twice in as many weeks by a silly 1 man corp who wouldn't even fight us, not much of a threat but damn annoying) Anyways all of this is just my own ideas cuz it will never happen, and ccp will favor the annoying wardec hi-sec griefers as they always do. Resized tag... again... hope this pleases the tag ninjas from ccp... again :p
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.02.07 20:48:00 - [34] Originally by: Humpalot Sure the US could go pummel Tahiti but doing so to the extortionists in EVE is near impossible. They just end the war, leave their corp and start a new one or hide in an NPC corp awhile. I know this because we did have a go at fighting these guys both in person and hiring mercs. Colossal waste of money and effort because they just slither past us. We cannot do the same however because our corp has a rep and standing and all the other stuff that just packing it iin and leaving is not a viable alternative. So, because your corp has a "rep" you can't do the same as your enemy? I guess you're SOL then. Originally by: Humpalot So, I maintain that there should be a mechanism in place to make people wishing to war dec think twice about their targets. If they still want to come after us fine...more power to them but it should be something more than a lark on their part. There is. It goes like this: "Wow, look at that juicy target. All idustrials, with noone to protect them." as opposed to "Hmmm, this corp might be too much for us to dec. They all fly T2 ships, and have a tight rep as a fighting corp". Nothing wrong with this either. You make yourself into a target, expect to be targetted. /Ki Haven't got one yet? Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.02.07 21:01:00 - [35] Edited by: Humpalot on 07/02/2007 20:57:12 Originally by: Ki An So, because your corp has a "rep" you can't do the same as your enemy? I guess you're SOL then. As a builder corp the rep counts when selling but it is more than that. Offices are setup, manufacturing lines running, trade routes established, standings with NPCs worked up and so on. Closing down and reforming a corp to avoid a war dec is not an option except in the worst case scenario. Thing is in RL you could appeal to cops and the courts or your politicians if someone is trying ot shake you down. In EVE the war deccing corp of 5 people faces NO consequences beyond a very minor hit to their wallet. As mentioned (and this goes to your second bit) we have fought back. As it happens our builders are not as noobish as they might seem at first glance. Not saying we are uber PvPers but not shabby (got T2 combat ships and everything and oddly some fairly accomplished PvPers among us). We have gone out and run them off. We have hired mercs to blast them into the stoneage. They just disappear and are back in no time doing their thing. I am NOT asking for a free ride in hi sec. I AM asking for some way to make these guys pay for their behavior. If not via a higher cost to war dec then some way to hold their feet to the fire if we do come after them and succeed in not being the pushover they thought we were. If Tahiti attacks Somoa and finds out (too late) that the US is now gunning for them Tahiti doesn't get to just fade away and avoid the consequences.
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.02.07 21:01:00 - [36] Mr. Vaden is as much a victim as ever. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender "For all your Material Needs, Vertigo One." Got Alliance? Contact me ingame for alliance creation services.
Laythun Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.07 21:06:00 - [37] Originally by: Angellyne Originally by: Laythun Originally by: Imaldris best way to combat griefers is to fight back WEll, lets see. Last time my corp got war declared on they guys I had to face had 10 million + skill points, were in t2 cruisers and battleships and they popped guys in their velators, vexors, and brutix. Now I'm sure some of them fought back. Just like you say. Oh, and some of us ganged up and fought them. They liked that, gave em more targets. what did you learn? is this not the point? The point of what? Are you saying the point of high-sec war-dec (sounds like a slavic name ) is for the victim to learn something? It's great that no one is entirely safe anywhere, but I think if Eve wants new players, having it be so easy and cheap to war-dec a new corp is "taking away something from Eve" as well. It's certainly not making the game in general - or the idea of leaving an NPC corp - any more appealing. A higher wardec price tag isn't such a bad idea compared to some others, if what you want is more fun for newish players trying to build new corps. If explosions is all you want, then yeah - it only "takes away" from the game. Nothing is a waste if you learn a lesson. Anyway, the rule in eve is if your not strong enough to stand on your own feet, then stand in the shade of someone bigger until you are. CEI's own Undercover Brother [MIA] It's great being Amarr, aint it?Ö
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.02.07 21:08:00 - [38] Originally by: Ki An A corp can only have three active decs. An alliance can dec a lot more (not sure there is a cap), but using the Privateer example, they pay about 50 bil a week or so for their wars (or so I've heard, the figure could probably use checking). I heard they pay about 3 billions/week. Which, for an alliance, really isn't much. The current PA situation, with corps endlessly getting in and out, is just an abuse of war-decing to pirate in high-sec... I think there should be either an exponential cost for more than, say, 3 non-mutual wars, OR an hard limit to 6-10 non-mutual wars. ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.02.07 21:13:00 - [39] I really think the terms Grief and Griefer are way way way way way way over used and abused on this forum. More over, I think you automatically disqualify yourself from serious consideration, especially on a topic like wardecs, if you drop the "griefing" bomb into the discussion. I seriously doubt CCP considers it as such. Further, it seems a bit rediculous to label the use of one of the games sets of rules & mechanics as griefing simply because you don't like it's affect on you. To use the chess analogy, "Look out dude, he's getting ready to use his queen! He's gonna grief ya!"... Silly, no? Also, it is even more rediculous to imply it is unsporting for people to kill you simply because you have intentionally not prepared for it. Imagine that you were playing DAoC, or WoW, or Guild Wars and you decided to go out to the warzone not wearing any armor or equipment. If people killed you it would be "griefing"??? And last but not least, every time you use the words grief or griefing I will personally club a baby seal to death with a bag of kittens. Please.Just.Stop. Thanks. ------------------- Ignorance
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.02.07 21:17:00 - [40] Eve is a PvP-based game. If newb corps run into genuine trouble, then there are people who will help. If a Jonnie Newcommer in your corp smacktalked a 40 Mil elite PvP corp member and they wardecced you, cry more. The second scenario is IME about ten times as common. Par'Gellen, so the targets log for a week, and the deccers take a huge fine. Uhm. Derovius Vaden; "normal people" That's right up there with the classic slurs. Just because people don't share your values within a game dosn't make them less than normal. Read the vision statement. It's not supposed to be risk free. It's not supposed to be carebear. It's not supposed to be YOUR game. Welcome to the sandbox. If you can't deal with people kicking sand in your eyes, don't come to the beach. There are plenty of other MMO games you can play. I suggest a WoW PvE server. Further, you're persisting in thinking of Eve as 2000's USA when the historical parallels are clearly NOT from that period. Try 1600's Europe. The players are minor Adel (nobles). Angellyne, one problem with your theory. Eve isn't having growth problems. It's pretty steady, actually. So... Shadowsword: for alliances? Yea, 6 non-consentual would be good. It'd limit a few very outside-the-norm situations while leaving everyone else untouched. //Maya
Imaldris	Posted - 2007.02.07 21:18:00 - [41] Originally by: Laythun Originally by: Imaldris best way to combat griefers is to fight back WEll, lets see. Last time my corp got war declared on they guys I had to face had 10 million + skill points, were in t2 cruisers and battleships and they popped guys in their velators, vexors, and brutix. Now I'm sure some of them fought back. Just like you say. Oh, and some of us ganged up and fought them. They liked that, gave em more targets. what did you learn? is this not the point? Why I learned that declaring war on another corp is another way for griefers to get grins and giggles at the expense of weaker players. That's the entire point of this post.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.02.07 21:31:00 - [42] No, your belief is that you should have a mandated security blanket. There ar a LOT of MMO's you'd be happier playing. //Maya
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.02.07 21:32:00 - [43] Originally by: Shadowsword The current PA situation, with corps endlessly getting in and out, is just an abuse of war-decing to pirate in high-sec... I think there should be either an exponential cost for more than, say, 3 non-mutual wars, OR an hard limit to 6-10 non-mutual wars. How about this... If you leave an Alliance/Corp while at war everyone you were at war with gets killrights on you for a week (or three days or whatever...). Better still allow selling of killrights. If you pod me and I get killrights allow a market to open up where I can sell that killright to someone else (whether they buy it off me or I pay them or just give it away doesn't matter). People keep saying in here to fight back or deal with it or get someone who can fight to deal with it. Well, I have mentioned my corp has tried precisely that and the extortionists just fade away into newb corps if the heat gets too much. Want to war dec a juicy industrialist corp that has nop fighting ability? fine but consider they may be wealthy and pay someone else to do their dirty work for them. With the above that becomes a viable alternative.
Ayane Shardmoor Minmatar Doom Guard ORION FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.02.07 21:37:00 - [44] Originally by: Humpalot Better still allow selling of killrights. If you pod me and I get killrights allow a market to open up where I can sell that killright to someone else (whether they buy it off me or I pay them or just give it away doesn't matter). This is made of win. -AS
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.02.07 21:39:00 - [45] Originally by: Humpalot ... Want to war dec a juicy industrialist corp that has nop fighting ability? fine but consider they may be wealthy and pay someone else to do their dirty work for them. With the above that becomes a viable alternative. Isn't that already possible? ------------------- Ignorance
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.02.07 21:48:00 - [46] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Originally by: Humpalot ... Want to war dec a juicy industrialist corp that has nop fighting ability? fine but consider they may be wealthy and pay someone else to do their dirty work for them. With the above that becomes a viable alternative. Isn't that already possible? Sure it is but when we (my corp) did that the people in the corp that war decced us all left that corp and just left a placeholder CEO. So, we spent the ISK to hire mercs and they couldn't do anything because those attacking us had moved in to NPC corps.
Aille Pluthrak Caldari Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.07 21:50:00 - [47] Edited by: Aille Pluthrak on 07/02/2007 21:50:21 Edited by: Aille Pluthrak on 07/02/2007 21:48:32 Originally by: Humpalot I am NOT asking for a free ride in hi sec. I AM asking for some way to make these guys pay for their behavior. Has one of my corp mates has said "we like to kill people and break things". If you listen real careful a squishing sound can be heard when you pop a pod. I do pay for my behavior in Empire. Everyone wants to kill me. Everyone wants to take my stuff. Where you may see one war target in a system I see 5 to 10. I never go to trade hubs and park in a station cause I know I will be camped in. How to avoid being blown up and podded by Bad People in Empire: 1. Learn how to PvP. I was not always a scum sucking moron who enjoys depriving people of their right to play Eve risk free. I was once a person who thought it was "bad form" to blow up someone's ship and, God forbid, then pod them. But then I started to do PvP. After the 6th or so ship I lost it aint so bad. It's just pretty pixels on a screen. 2. Learn how to outfit your ship for travel past the bad guys. WCS's are your friend (I only use em on industrials). That elite industrial with the built-in WCS is nice also. 3. DO NOT AFK travel when in an Empire war. But feel free to do so when you go through the system I am currently in. It would also be nice if you do that AFK travel at the gate I am sitting at. 4. Set up your overview for war and watch local. Local is there for a reason besides chatting with your friends. Use it. ----------------------- I expect no quarter, and will give none. What I post are my views, no one elses.
Angellyne	Posted - 2007.02.07 23:09:00 - [48] Originally by: Maya Rkell Angellyne, one problem with your theory. Eve isn't having growth problems. It's pretty steady, actually. So... Something needs to follow the "So...". I wasn't arguing that the player base was shrinking, or that fewer new players were signing up, just that a higher wardec pricetag would "add something" from the perspective of newish players in newish corps. Specifically a bit more "fun", and hopefully less hesitation to leave NPC corps. And by the way, a higher pricetag isn't the same as "complete carebear safety". If anything, it would probably just mean less wardecs on poor industrial corps.
Infinity Ziona Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.08 01:25:00 - [49] Theres a foolproof system in place already to avoid all war declarations, you dont even need to give up your corporation to use it. Simply disband your corporation; Create a channel with the same name; Wallah you now have a completely safe corp with a corp chan and immunity from all wars in empire. The current war system is already taxing on the wallet, it costs a lot of money to declare war, it costs a lot of money to create an alliance, it costs a lot of time to train to create the alliance and it takes a lot of work to get things to run properly. Hopefully CCP will ignore the requests by posters asking to have entities like Privateers destroyed by hugely inflated war costs and let the game develop dynamically as they claim they like to see it develop. The Privateering Life
Spenz Gallente FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.02.08 01:35:00 - [50] Edited by: Spenz on 08/02/2007 01:33:09 Originally by: Infinity Ziona Theres a foolproof system in place already to avoid all war declarations, you dont even need to give up your corporation to use it. Simply disband your corporation; Create a channel with the same name; Wallah you now have a completely safe corp with a corp chan and immunity from all wars in empire. Not everyone is like you Privateers Giving the good ole 'Im too stupid to be held accountable for my own actions so Im just going to leave the alliance and join a noob corp while I make isk to get back into the war at a later date'. Good show privateers. Now quit spamming alliance mail with your 'corp leaving' mails. Its annoying.
mechtech	Posted - 2007.02.08 01:39:00 - [51] I think thats way too extreme. All I want to see fixed is people jumping to alt corps as soon as they get war dec'd.
Infinity Ziona Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.08 01:45:00 - [52] Originally by: Spenz Edited by: Spenz on 08/02/2007 01:33:09 Originally by: Infinity Ziona Theres a foolproof system in place already to avoid all war declarations, you dont even need to give up your corporation to use it. Simply disband your corporation; Create a channel with the same name; Wallah you now have a completely safe corp with a corp chan and immunity from all wars in empire. Not everyone is like you Privateers Giving the good ole 'Im too stupid to be held accountable for my own actions so Im just going to leave the alliance and join a noob corp while I make isk to get back into the war at a later date'. Good show privateers. Now quit spamming alliance mail with your 'corp leaving' mails. Its annoying. This advice is for those not wanting to be declared against; not the declarers. And I have been telling people this since way before I made the Privateers corporation. Essentially when you create a corporation; or an alliance YOU ACCEPT THE POSSIBILITY OF BEING WARRED. Its a silly thing to accept that possiblity and complain when the possiblity is realised in the form of a war dec. So calm down and make your choice; war and corporations / alliances or peace and NPC corps, non-official corp chat channels. The Privateering Life
Soon Tzu	Posted - 2007.02.08 02:12:00 - [53] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: Spenz Edited by: Spenz on 08/02/2007 01:33:09 Originally by: Infinity Ziona Theres a foolproof system in place already to avoid all war declarations, you dont even need to give up your corporation to use it. Simply disband your corporation; Create a channel with the same name; Wallah you now have a completely safe corp with a corp chan and immunity from all wars in empire. Not everyone is like you Privateers Giving the good ole 'Im too stupid to be held accountable for my own actions so Im just going to leave the alliance and join a noob corp while I make isk to get back into the war at a later date'. Good show privateers. Now quit spamming alliance mail with your 'corp leaving' mails. Its annoying. This advice is for those not wanting to be declared against; not the declarers. And I have been telling people this since way before I made the Privateers corporation. Essentially when you create a corporation; or an alliance YOU ACCEPT THE POSSIBILITY OF BEING WARRED. Its a silly thing to accept that possiblity and complain when the possiblity is realised in the form of a war dec. So calm down and make your choice; war and corporations / alliances or peace and NPC corps, non-official corp chat channels. you evaded the point that some corps you allow into your alliance, are exploiting the intended use of a war-dec by leaving during a war, so they can make isk in empire, in peace, then rejoin for some more gankage. No BS spin can remove that it is not how the system was intended to be used. If the corp rejoins only after all wars they were a part of while in PA, are over, then that would be ok...rejoin during a war...thats an exploit the same as corp hopping is an exploit for a single player, it is done to evade the consequences of war. (and if PA allow it as an alliance, then they are guilty of using the exploit as a whole) So do as you say, play within the intended use of the war dec system, with all the consequences of war for all player corps, or STFU.
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.02.08 03:02:00 - [54] /emote prods the angry beast that is WarDec'ers some more.
DiuxDium Casting Shadows	Posted - 2007.02.08 03:08:00 - [55] Wardecs need to cost infinity billion isk. I should be given a magical ISK button as well. Wahh, Wahh, Wahh. --------------- PvP in EvE is not consentual.
xeom Veto.	Posted - 2007.02.08 03:21:00 - [56] Op is right war-decing should cost a billion at least! War-decing my corp in empire when i don't want to pvp is not cool.You should be doing it for fun and expect to lose isk!OFC we will stay docked so it will be a good isk sink! So basicly its not fair and should be the way i wan't it. Ok tools? --- "Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.02.08 03:22:00 - [57] Originally by: xeom Op is right war-decing should cost a billion at least! War-decing my corp in empire when i don't want to pvp is not cool.You should be doing it for fun and expect to lose isk!OFC we will stay docked so it will be a good isk sink! So basicly its not fair and should be the way i wan't it. Ok tools? I knew you were a genuine human being under all that makeup, kudos to you sir.
Jennifer Meek Gallente Planck Bubble Generation Technologies	Posted - 2007.02.08 03:31:00 - [58] Originally by: Derovius Vaden First off: NO THIS IS NOT A JOKE. With all these High Sec PvP corps throwing WarDec's around like confetti and molesting industrial/mining corps who really have not focused on warring, I believe its time we make war in EVE as serious an affair as war in reality. WarDec's should be the LAST resort of a corp vs. corp argument, and should be extremely costly to both sides, not just the victims. For example, to legally declare war of Corp B, as Corp A, you need to register the WarDec with CONCORD (same way as now), but it costs a billion ISK; not a million, not 5 million, ONE (1) billion ISK. Consider it grease money for CONCORD to look the other way. I stopped reading after (1). When creating a new corp costs 1.5 million ISK, the corp that gets war dec'ed can jump ship, make a new corporation, and the other corporation just lost 1 billion ISK. So, you can have your 1 billion ISK corp war cost when: 1. Making a new corporation costs 2 billion ISK 2. Corp members can NOT quit corp during a war. ---
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.02.08 03:48:00 - [59] Originally by: Jennifer Meek 2. Corp members can NOT quit corp during a war. Nah...you don't want to do that. It seems to me one of the few ways to "win" a war in EVE is to get people/corps to bail from the corp/alliance they are a part of till the corp/alliance collapses. As has been mentioned before both here and in numerous other posts if you leave your freaking corp/alliance during a war you should be prevented from returning till the war dec is cancelled/retracted. I have heard zero objections to this idea which is either amazing on these forums or I am missing it. Why CCP finds such a concept not worthy of implementation I have no idea.
Weirda Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.08 03:58:00 - [60] Edited by: Weirda on 08/02/2007 03:55:32 @maya: Weirda could not agree with you more. well spoken, nice to see you back. (can't believe said that) @j. meek: Thank you for pointing out an obvious (though not to the OP) exploit to their request... how do you feel about that OP? @infinity ziona: please answer the question that have been asked of you. is that a practice you endorse or not? the next time Weirda alliance get spammed with ANY of you member corps leaving during an active war you will be petitioned until they revoke Weirda right to petition... @op: there are predator and prey. you CHOOSE to be prey. you CHOOSE to be a victim. there is free will in EVE and don't start BS about 10mil sp hac pilots killing noobs... that is a straw man and it doesn't matter (and you know it anyways). it is the nature of the game. do you have any idea how cheap certain item would be if missioneer and industrialist who have almost no possibility of losing ISK in EVE did NOT have infinite billions to pay for that crap (and drive up market prices)? did you ever consider that YOU grief WEIRDA by making those price high? it seem funny for someone as consistenly broke as Weirda to conceive these amount of ISK that are probably trivial to someone who never lose it unless they are buying their 'backup CNR' or somesuch... do you like that AD HOMINEM? yeah it suck. you should stop using it too and look at the big picture... EVE is a CIRCLE... and YOU are part of it until you quit. oh and @op - THAT was not a JOKE @humpalot (great name for someone with such a REP) you do realize that Weirda have no idea who buying anything from - so that is completely pointless... but... everything you have said about them crawling back to shell of one man alt corp etc when you do something about it... that is petitionable, and they will be (and should be) banned. you should try it sometime. @everyone else: Weirda have only ever petitioned Detarus... so don't get too excited __ Weirda Nosferatu - Time for Change

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