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Ephemeron The Syndicate Inc INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.08 04:29:00 - [61] I agree that war declaration should be more serious business, but not in the war dec costs. When 2 corps commit to a war, they should have something real to lose, not just ships, but corp offices, corp assets, the whole corp. There should be a way to erase the losing corp from face of EVE completely, right down to corp disbanding, with enability to create new corp with same name. Corp wars in EVE are important for healthy community. The weak must die, the weak corps shouldn't be allowed to spread, they must be burned out and killed.
Genericforumalt Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.02.08 04:40:00 - [62] You know wasn't there something about war having more tenable objectives coming soon? I think that that will have a lot of effect on this issue. But in general I think it's positively ridiculous how little wardecs cost, concord should raise their prices.
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2007.02.08 05:13:00 - [63] Originally by: Humpalot Edited by: Humpalot on 07/02/2007 21:47:56 Originally by: Roy Batty68 Originally by: Humpalot ... Want to war dec a juicy industrialist corp that has nop fighting ability? fine but consider they may be wealthy and pay someone else to do their dirty work for them. With the above that becomes a viable alternative. Isn't that already possible? Sure it is but when we (my corp) did that the people in the corp that war decced us all left that corp and just left a placeholder CEO. So, we spent the ISK to hire mercs and they couldn't do anything because those attacking us had moved in to NPC corps. Hence my case for allowing killrights to accrue to the people leaving. To me if you started it you shouldn't just be able to bow out cuz you don't like what you started. If my corp gets killrights for a few days even if they move to an NPC corp we can still have a way to make them pay for it. Better would be if I had the option to give that killright to a merc and pay them to hunt the guys down. Since other corp members would also have that killright we could hire numerous mercs to go after them. Heck...might make bounty hunting a profession finally. petition to get them banned. That is not allowed.
Horatio Nately Caldari Finis Lumen	Posted - 2007.02.08 05:44:00 - [64] sounds like someone got decced by the privateers. Eve has PvP built in, better get a Security arm for your mining corp. --------------------------------------- My Posts Represent My Opinion, Not Those of my Corp or Alliance.
Par'Gellen Low Grade Ore	Posted - 2007.02.08 06:50:00 - [65] Edited by: Par''Gellen on 08/02/2007 06:48:07 Originally by: Maya Rkell Par'Gellen, so the targets log for a week, and the deccers take a huge fine. Uhm. This already happens but the "fine" is negligible. The only real way to seperate the grief decs from the legit decs is to punch them in the wallet. --- CCP : Save my mousewheel!
hotgirl933	Posted - 2007.02.08 07:11:00 - [66] lots of noise by combat avoiding industrialists - actually i think the war system is fine tho corps v corps should be 20m and alliacne decs should start at 200m to reflect the inflation in the last couple of years within eve of isk
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.02.08 07:37:00 - [67] Originally by: Audri Fisher petition to get them banned. That is not allowed. You and Weirda mentioned this. Seriously? I had no idea (none of us did) that this was a bannable offense. Cruddy of them sure but bannable? Seems a bit extreme. ::shrug:: Can't wait for a next time then .
Laythun Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.08 07:38:00 - [68] Originally by: Humpalot Originally by: Audri Fisher petition to get them banned. That is not allowed. You and Weirda mentioned this. Seriously? I had no idea (none of us did) that this was a bannable offense. Cruddy of them sure but bannable? Seems a bit extreme. ::shrug:: Can't wait for a next time then . There right you not allowed to leave corp to intentionally avoid **** like that, This thread was over at page one tbh /end CEI's own Undercover Brother [MIA] It's great being Amarr, aint it?Ö
Infinity Ziona Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.08 07:58:00 - [69] Originally by: Soon Tzu Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: Spenz Edited by: Spenz on 08/02/2007 01:33:09 Originally by: Infinity Ziona Theres a foolproof system in place already to avoid all war declarations, you dont even need to give up your corporation to use it. Simply disband your corporation; Create a channel with the same name; Wallah you now have a completely safe corp with a corp chan and immunity from all wars in empire. Not everyone is like you Privateers Giving the good ole 'Im too stupid to be held accountable for my own actions so Im just going to leave the alliance and join a noob corp while I make isk to get back into the war at a later date'. Good show privateers. Now quit spamming alliance mail with your 'corp leaving' mails. Its annoying. This advice is for those not wanting to be declared against; not the declarers. And I have been telling people this since way before I made the Privateers corporation. Essentially when you create a corporation; or an alliance YOU ACCEPT THE POSSIBILITY OF BEING WARRED. Its a silly thing to accept that possiblity and complain when the possiblity is realised in the form of a war dec. So calm down and make your choice; war and corporations / alliances or peace and NPC corps, non-official corp chat channels. you evaded the point that some corps you allow into your alliance, are exploiting the intended use of a war-dec by leaving during a war, so they can make isk in empire, in peace, then rejoin for some more gankage. No BS spin can remove that it is not how the system was intended to be used. If the corp rejoins only after all wars they were a part of while in PA, are over, then that would be ok...rejoin during a war...thats an exploit the same as corp hopping is an exploit for a single player, it is done to evade the consequences of war. (and if PA allow it as an alliance, then they are guilty of using the exploit as a whole) So do as you say, play within the intended use of the war dec system, with all the consequences of war for all player corps, or STFU. Its not polite to derail a thread and so I wont address your flawed points above. This is not a PA hate thread, its a war hate thread. Please stay on topic. Taa. The Privateering Life
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2007.02.08 08:17:00 - [70] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 08/02/2007 08:15:27 Fine... make it a billion ISK to declare war. Just as long as I get to hunt you down and pod you when you're docked, pod you when you're offline, remove all probe chance reduction from missions, allow interdictors and bubbles in empire. How about allowing blockades, where I can bribe Concord to make you kill on sight to the gate sentries and unable to jump. And then I can drop a few troop transports in your hangar while you're offline and loot your corp hangar/wallet, smash every item you have on the market, steal all your docked ships, pod you, kill your clone, etc. Oh, and make the price to start a corp at least a billion, so you can't just disband and re-form the corporation every time there's a war. Or maybe lets make the war permanent, even if you leave a corp you're still kill on sight until the far future end of EVE. If I have to pay a billion ISK for a war, I want it to be worth my money! None of this "dock and hide for a week" kind of war that exists now. In other words, quit whining. You have plenty of tools to avoid a war, so use them.
Sinder Ohm Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.08 09:00:00 - [71] I must agree with the guy from RAZOR alliance sounds alot like "Oh nooes I want to be 100% safe and farm resources in empire all day long". It realy is your own fault if you are only an indy corp with no defence at all and if that is the case pay mercs to handle your problem. Or god forbid jump into some cheap ships and get your own back. To the OP maybe raising the war dec fees to a corp slightly but ur proposal of 1 bill oh come on Originally by: Blind Man okies so liek when u warp in on them u shod target them... and stuff k.then u FIRE ZE MISSILES
El'Niaga	Posted - 2007.02.08 09:29:00 - [72] The constant strain caused by high sec war is one thing that is negatively impacting server nodes and causing a lot of the lag. More lag is created by it than by the miners, industrials, mission runners, and noobs. There are some people who are abusing the system. Seeking to have a 0.0 situation in Empire by declaring as many wars as they possibly can so everyone around them is red. This is counterproductive to the longterm health of the game. It doesn't get most people to move to another area of space, it more often than not leads to lost subscriptions. CCP needs to increased the cost of wars, they are to cheap right now. I'd recommend raising the cost to 10 times the current amount. They need to impose a limit on the number of non mutual wars an alliance can declare. 3 per corporation in the alliance is reasonable. Corporations leaving an alliance that has wars should retain all those same wars until their normal duration would run out. They could then surrender of course after leaving the alliance if they wanted to. Those steps would eliminate a large amount of what is essentially griefing in hi sec currently. It would still allow hi sec wars, but no longer could you go in and out of alliance two or three times a week to hit someone then escape without consequence. It would also stop the large number of wars some maintain which cause increased server strain and thus lag.
gfldex	Posted - 2007.02.08 10:05:00 - [73] Originally by: Humpalot Sure it is but when we (my corp) did that the people in the corp that war decced us all left that corp and just left a placeholder CEO. So, we spent the ISK to hire mercs and they couldn't do anything because those attacking us had moved in to NPC corps. Petiton them next time. GMs did and will bound them to their corp and keep them in place so you can hit them. -- Number of pilots that logged while I scrambled, bubbles or shooten them: 9.
Masochistic Cannibal Amarr The Ring of Fire	Posted - 2007.02.08 10:13:00 - [74] Your idea is retarded This is a PvP game, The game is designed around PvP, THE DEV'S PLAY THE GAME IN MOSTLY PVP CORPS !! How is a new corporation going to afford a war-dec if it's 1billion isk ? Simple answer they cant. It's fine as it is. Cannibal I eat babies ! [Hauling services available~ Contact ingame]
gfldex	Posted - 2007.02.08 10:14:00 - [75] Originally by: El'Niaga The constant strain caused by high sec war is one thing that is negatively impacting server nodes and causing a lot of the lag. More lag is created by it than by the miners, industrials, mission runners, and noobs. You never had any empire wars. In any case I know of there is one big fight at the beginning of the war. Then some random gankes until even the most undisciplined unterstood that location agents really work. The rest is ppl sitting docked in stations. If there is any inpact of wardecs to lag at all it is reducing it by stopping ppl from running missions. Originally by: El'Niaga This is counterproductive to the longterm health of the game. It doesn't get most people to move to another area of space, it more often than not leads to lost subscriptions. We have empire wardecs for around 2 years now. In those 2 years the player base growth rate is increasing. Befor we got empire wars the growth was slower. So one could say the wardecs are healthy for EvE. -- Number of pilots that logged while I scrambled, bubbles or shooten them: 9.
gfldex	Posted - 2007.02.08 10:22:00 - [76] Two random notes from me. In the last 4 days I made 500M ISK. I do not own any tec 2 BPO. I dont got any good loot. I didnt ransom a freighter or did anything else fance. It was just plain and simple NPCing. For me one billion is is no problem at all. But why should only ppl like me be allowed to declare a war? What's about all those merc corps that help noobs that get wardeced? Should they not be allowed to help? Another point here. I started wars with 2 random empire corps so far. In both cases the targets where vocal in local about their fighting capabilities. In both cases they outnumbered us in the first and only fight. They got the same SP average and compareable gear. In both cases they got beaten with heavy losses on their side and none on ours. The point is it is increadibly hard to find out what a target is able to do. Even when you get a spy into that corp (I never did. It is not really needed in my eyes.) you will have a hard time to find out what they will be bring to the battle field. You can not simply pick a target. It would take weeks to find out if a corp is weak or not. But if they suck they suck. EvE is attacker friendly and it is ment to be or there would hardly be any combat. Once again Rule No. One In Combat applies: Attack or be not there! -- Number of pilots that logged while I scrambled, bubbles or shooten them: 9.
El'Niaga	Posted - 2007.02.08 11:23:00 - [77] Originally by: gfldex Originally by: El'Niaga The constant strain caused by high sec war is one thing that is negatively impacting server nodes and causing a lot of the lag. More lag is created by it than by the miners, industrials, mission runners, and noobs. You never had any empire wars. In any case I know of there is one big fight at the beginning of the war. Then some random gankes until even the most undisciplined unterstood that location agents really work. The rest is ppl sitting docked in stations. If there is any inpact of wardecs to lag at all it is reducing it by stopping ppl from running missions. Originally by: El'Niaga This is counterproductive to the longterm health of the game. It doesn't get most people to move to another area of space, it more often than not leads to lost subscriptions. We have empire wardecs for around 2 years now. In those 2 years the player base growth rate is increasing. Befor we got empire wars the growth was slower. So one could say the wardecs are healthy for EvE. I've been in Empire wars. Perhaps not on this character but on others. The game has expanded in the past because Empire war has been limited in the past. That has changed recently with the tactics used by Privateers and others. It was never the intention of the game to have hi sec be as 0.0. If you want a free open warfare with everyone around, move to 0.0 and mix it up, that's what its there for. CCP has to continue replenishing their subscriber base since the average player only stays for 7 months. Without constant new blood EVE would die. The current Empire wars are doing more harm to retention then they are helping the game, however those doing it don't see that. There's nothing wrong with one or two Empire wars for a corp or alliance but when you declare everyone you see as is Privateers policy that's clearly abuse. If you want that many reds move to low sec or move to 0.0 . At some point if they start seeing less retention of players CCP will take steps, the sooner they take those the better the adjustment for all. The clear problems that have caused this imbalance are the lack of a limit on the number of non mutuals an alliance can declare, the ability of a corp to enter and exit an alliance in the same week and thus same war period, and the relatively very low cost of wars.
Kazah'dur Vorlonis Amarr Direct Intent The Makhai	Posted - 2007.02.08 11:41:00 - [78] Originally by: Derovius Vaden First off: NO THIS IS NOT A JOKE. With all these High Sec PvP corps throwing WarDec's around like confetti and molesting industrial/mining corps who really have not focused on warring, I believe its time we make war in EVE as serious an affair as war in reality. WarDec's should be the LAST resort of a corp vs. corp argument, and should be extremely costly to both sides, not just the victims. For example, to legally declare war of Corp B, as Corp A, you need to register the WarDec with CONCORD (same way as now), but it costs a billion ISK; not a million, not 5 million, ONE (1) billion ISK. Consider it grease money for CONCORD to look the other way. AS WELL, for every factor of 10 members you have more than the victim corp, you must pay an additional 100 million ISK. And no, there is no vice versa, no -100 million ISK for every 10 fewer your corp has. Now, before you all start frothing at the mouth, people remember that you can still kill each other in low security/0.0 without ramifications. (Of course you lose standing, but you 0.0 PvP'ers like to hate on High Sec so much, you can GTFO, thanks.) And to go along with this, allow player corps to WarDec NPC corps. If you want to waste 1 billion ISK to shoot macro miners and freighters in high security, all the power to you. I like that idea.
Soon Tzu	Posted - 2007.02.08 11:48:00 - [79] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: Soon Tzu Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: Spenz Edited by: Spenz on 08/02/2007 01:33:09 Originally by: Infinity Ziona Theres a foolproof system in place already to avoid all war declarations, you dont even need to give up your corporation to use it. Simply disband your corporation; Create a channel with the same name; Wallah you now have a completely safe corp with a corp chan and immunity from all wars in empire. Not everyone is like you Privateers Giving the good ole 'Im too stupid to be held accountable for my own actions so Im just going to leave the alliance and join a noob corp while I make isk to get back into the war at a later date'. Good show privateers. Now quit spamming alliance mail with your 'corp leaving' mails. Its annoying. This advice is for those not wanting to be declared against; not the declarers. And I have been telling people this since way before I made the Privateers corporation. Essentially when you create a corporation; or an alliance YOU ACCEPT THE POSSIBILITY OF BEING WARRED. Its a silly thing to accept that possiblity and complain when the possiblity is realised in the form of a war dec. So calm down and make your choice; war and corporations / alliances or peace and NPC corps, non-official corp chat channels. you evaded the point that some corps you allow into your alliance, are exploiting the intended use of a war-dec by leaving during a war, so they can make isk in empire, in peace, then rejoin for some more gankage. No BS spin can remove that it is not how the system was intended to be used. If the corp rejoins only after all wars they were a part of while in PA, are over, then that would be ok...rejoin during a war...thats an exploit the same as corp hopping is an exploit for a single player, it is done to evade the consequences of war. (and if PA allow it as an alliance, then they are guilty of using the exploit as a whole) So do as you say, play within the intended use of the war dec system, with all the consequences of war for all player corps, or STFU. Its not polite to derail a thread and so I wont address your flawed points above. This is not a PA hate thread, its a war hate thread. Please stay on topic. Taa. it is on topic, it is about the cost of war, and how some abuse the low cost, and have no consequence. You just wish to distract others with spin doctor crap.
Soon Tzu	Posted - 2007.02.08 11:50:00 - [80] Originally by: gfldex Originally by: El'Niaga The constant strain caused by high sec war is one thing that is negatively impacting server nodes and causing a lot of the lag. More lag is created by it than by the miners, industrials, mission runners, and noobs. You never had any empire wars. In any case I know of there is one big fight at the beginning of the war. Then some random gankes until even the most undisciplined unterstood that location agents really work. The rest is ppl sitting docked in stations. If there is any inpact of wardecs to lag at all it is reducing it by stopping ppl from running missions. Originally by: El'Niaga This is counterproductive to the longterm health of the game. It doesn't get most people to move to another area of space, it more often than not leads to lost subscriptions. We have empire wardecs for around 2 years now. In those 2 years the player base growth rate is increasing. Befor we got empire wars the growth was slower. So one could say the wardecs are healthy for EvE. what a load of crap. The rate of playerbase growth has decreased not increased, and empire population has increased out of proportion, indicating there is a problem since CCP wants ppl to move OUT of empire...
Soon Tzu	Posted - 2007.02.08 11:57:00 - [81] Originally by: Masochistic Cannibal Your idea is retarded This is a PvP game, The game is designed around PvP, THE DEV'S PLAY THE GAME IN MOSTLY PVP CORPS !! How is a new corporation going to afford a war-dec if it's 1billion isk ? Simple answer they cant. It's fine as it is. Cannibal ok once again for the slow and 'special' people... Eve has pvp (lots of it), it is not all pvp, even CCP says so. (ask Zrakor) If there was nothing but pvp, then we all would find spawned goodies to use, not build them, buy them, hunt npc for them...there is more to eve then point and shoot...(duh, thats why it is called a MMORPG, not a FPS)
Soon Tzu	Posted - 2007.02.08 11:59:00 - [82] Originally by: El'Niaga Originally by: gfldex Originally by: El'Niaga The constant strain caused by high sec war is one thing that is negatively impacting server nodes and causing a lot of the lag. More lag is created by it than by the miners, industrials, mission runners, and noobs. You never had any empire wars. In any case I know of there is one big fight at the beginning of the war. Then some random gankes until even the most undisciplined unterstood that location agents really work. The rest is ppl sitting docked in stations. If there is any inpact of wardecs to lag at all it is reducing it by stopping ppl from running missions. Originally by: El'Niaga This is counterproductive to the longterm health of the game. It doesn't get most people to move to another area of space, it more often than not leads to lost subscriptions. We have empire wardecs for around 2 years now. In those 2 years the player base growth rate is increasing. Befor we got empire wars the growth was slower. So one could say the wardecs are healthy for EvE. I've been in Empire wars. Perhaps not on this character but on others. The game has expanded in the past because Empire war has been limited in the past. That has changed recently with the tactics used by Privateers and others. It was never the intention of the game to have hi sec be as 0.0. If you want a free open warfare with everyone around, move to 0.0 and mix it up, that's what its there for. CCP has to continue replenishing their subscriber base since the average player only stays for 7 months. Without constant new blood EVE would die. The current Empire wars are doing more harm to retention then they are helping the game, however those doing it don't see that. There's nothing wrong with one or two Empire wars for a corp or alliance but when you declare everyone you see as is Privateers policy that's clearly abuse. If you want that many reds move to low sec or move to 0.0 . At some point if they start seeing less retention of players CCP will take steps, the sooner they take those the better the adjustment for all. The clear problems that have caused this imbalance are the lack of a limit on the number of non mutuals an alliance can declare, the ability of a corp to enter and exit an alliance in the same week and thus same war period, and the relatively very low cost of wars. well said, <salute>
Neon Genesis Gallente Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.02.08 12:10:00 - [83] Psst, it's still a game. How ever much war decs should be a last resort in a perfect world, there is a large section of people who like to shoot other players. Less wars = less fun.
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.02.08 13:46:00 - [84] Originally by: Weirda @humpalot (great name for someone with such a REP) you do realize that Weirda have no idea who buying anything from - so that is completely pointless... It is true that when we sell on the market buyers have no clue who they are buying from so a "reputation" does not mean much. However, we sell a great deal directly to corporations and alliances. They will approach us with largish orders to fill. Depending on the corp we often demand a downpayment. Without our reputation corps/alliances would not be willing to do this. We also arrange deals with suppliers to deliver building materials to us at pre-arranged prices. Likewise our reputation facilitates this that the supplier knows when they go to the trouble of bringing a huge load of supplies to us that they will be paid. Many may believe a good reputation means little in EVE. For my money it means a great deal and we jealously protect our good name (if a member threatened our rep by "low" gameplay they would find themself out of the corp in short order).
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.02.08 15:57:00 - [85] Originally by: El'Niaga There's nothing wrong with one or two Empire wars for a corp or alliance but when you declare everyone you see as is Privateers policy that's clearly abuse. If you want that many reds move to low sec or move to 0.0 . I agree that if Privateers and their ilk really just wanted PvP then there is no reason for them to not just enter 0.0 and have at it. Plenty of fighting to be done there but guess what? The people in 0.0 are generally ready for a fight. It is one thing to dec a corp in hi sec because you know they are supplying your 0.0 enemy and wish to impact their ability to wage war but what Privateers and many others do is nothing short of looking for easy ganks and/or extortion. Still, I'd be ok with all that IF the corps in an Alliance like Privateer were forced to deal with the ramifications of declaring war rather than rotate in and out as it suits them to avoid war when it is inconvenient. Heck...many here are spouting how if you find war inconvenient find a way to deal with it and don't be a wimp and dock for a week yet avoiding war when it doesn't suit them seems ok. The OP was looking for a way to make corps/alliances be more careful with war decs by raising costs so they don't spam war decs willy-nilly. If you do not like that then there should be a way to hold corps who start a war accountable. If they start it we should be able to finish it. If corps in Alliances like Privateer found themselves stuck with the wars they started I think you'd find a much more interesting set of circumstances. All the people they dec against could combine resources and hire mercs or form their own fighter wings or whatever (or just go down themselves as they get ganked ot death). Frankly I think it'd make EVE even more fun.
Cipher7 Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.08 15:58:00 - [86] Theres no such thing as an industrial/mining corp. There are PVP corps that mine. Highsec is a newbie starter area, not a veteran miner living area. If you're big enough to attract a wardec, you're big enough to get out of empire.
Cipher7 Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.08 16:03:00 - [87] When you join a corp you are consenting to PVP. Eve is a PVP universe, if PVP is not your cup of tea them Eve is not for you.
Cipher7 Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.08 16:05:00 - [88] As far as privateers, yes corps can drop out of the alliance and end their war. You can also go ahead and wardec those corps.
Wolf Pershaw	Posted - 2007.02.08 16:15:00 - [89] Wardec's prove their point in EVE. Normally a WarDec is to fight off a harasser and to hinder the opposing corp's production for a period of time. The Privateers fill the fighting role for you which allows your mining/production corp to continue without any reprimands from the opposing force. They'd would normally be running or constantly fighting The Privateers leaving your corp alone. Frankly, if you don't like to be wardec'd, than join the noob corp like all those macro miners.
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.02.08 16:19:00 - [90] Originally by: Wolf Pershaw Frankly, if you don't like to be wardec'd, than join the noob corp like all those macro miners. Exactly. Privateers sends a loud and clear message that the smart move is to be in an NPC corp. Is that really the direction you want to see EVE develop?

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