Originally by: Escaped Convict

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Originally by: Kodiak31415

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Edited by: Kodiak31415 on 08/02/2007 03:32:56
When I think of combat in eve I think about ships blowing the stuffing out of eachother, tanking, ganking, big booms, massive 8 gun/launcher battleships standing toe to toe blasting eachother into little itty bitty peices. "Wave of mutilation 2 style" for thoes you that have seen it. Or like some of the Lock n' Load video fights.

But it seems that combat in eve is now more based on the "other stuff". Look at ships like the myridon, curse, nannodomi/phoon. Look at the dominance of EW, damps, tracking disruptors, and above all else nos. The big guns and launchers are silent because they ship they're attached to are damped down to 5km lock range. You somehow manage to wait through the 2 minute lock time and lock a target 5km away from you! Now that little damper is going to die! But wait.....you have no cap to fire your guns because it's all been sucked off by nos! Not to worry, you picked minmatar or caldari and don't need cap to fire your guns! Too late, you got ecm'ed, now your going to have to wait 2.5 minutes to get another lock. Time to turrtle up and use that handy rep bonus that your ship has...but you have no cap to rep with. So slowly your tank fails, as you sit there as harmless as a veldspar asteroid watching your hardcore tanked death dealing uber ship get slowly picked apart by a couple of little leech ships that you should have been able to blast to smithereens within seconds of getting a lock.

BTW, this wasn't supposed to be a whine (It did kind of turn into one). It was going to be an observtion of mine and I wanted to know how the rest of the playerbase felt about it. Please keep replies constructive, you can tell me I'm wrong without calling me a noob/idiot/moron/asking if I even play eve ect...

Am I wrong here or is eve combat now all about EW and cap warfare with damage only becoming a factor once a ship is defanged and nosed to the point of death? I want people to see a hyperion or abbadon and think "if that guy has a close rang gank setup were toast" not just "meh, slap some damps and nos on him and watch him wither away on the vine." I know CCP wanted to increase combat times but did do it at the cost of combat itself? Am I just full of nonsense? Is there a way to 'fix' this without remving EW and nos from the game completley? Does it even need to be fixed?

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So basicaly what you are saying is that the ship with the biggest guns/missiles wins?

if so you are playing the wrong game, eve is all about setup skill "player skill" and being in the right place at the right time. if DPS and youre tank was the only thing that ditermined youre win then eve would be a very boaring place.

im not saying there is no room for these massiv DPS blaster machins, what im saying is if you fly one then you need cover from friends ie intys to takle and intercept other intys EW ships to counter there EW and mabey some nos of youre own to counter ther nos adnenergy transfere :)

eve rocks cuz even a well setup small ship can take out a massiv gun platform ship if its not setup to deal with you.

NOS ECM DAMPANING and all the others add flavour to eve in a way DPS on its couldnot.

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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FYI:
The person with the biggest NOS/ECM winning is worse than the person with the biggest guns winning.
At least the guys with the guns are actually fighting.

NOS/ECM fight
Guns fight

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Originally by: James Duar

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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FYI:
The person with the biggest NOS/ECM winning is worse than the person with the biggest guns winning.
At least the guys with the guns are actually fighting.

NOS/ECM fight
Guns fight

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Yes, clearly they're fighting. F1, F2, F3 - totally fighting. Oh wait, Nos and ECM - why, they use the same buttons? Well I'll be damned.

The point is, you seem to be equating combat to shooting guns. This is retarded. EVE combat is about who can out-think and out-manoeuver their opponent. In this sense, DPS is the least of your concerns with the exception of ensuring you have enough of it. Knowing what they're flying, ensuring the engagement happens on your terms, getting the right balance of EWar in your gang, attacking their capacitor appropriately to destroy their tank (more dictating the engagement really) - these are the actual parts of fighting.

People who can't think outside of "GUNZ!" really don't deserve to win.

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Originally by: Cipher7

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/agree

pvp has turned into a bunch of leechboats trying to outsuck each other

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Originally by: Cipher7

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/agree

pvp has turned into a bunch of leechboats trying to outsuck each other

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Originally by: Rod Blaine

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Yes nos need a looking at for a bit, but in general the complainst about EW and nos being equally important as guns or tanking being something that is basically wrong are ridiculous. EW is just another tool, just like your turret or launcher or repairer.

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Originally by: Politocratis

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I fail to see how EW is not combat related?

Anything that adds to taking down your enemy can be considered combat related and is FAR more interesting that simply shooting at something.

Sorry you can handle the complexities of it, but don't ruin the beauty of this game for the rest of us.

Coming from someone who use to serve on a REAL combat ship, EW is an INTEGRAL part to surviving and killing and is given serious attention, sometimes more so than the guns.

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Originally by: Laboratus

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Originally by: Cailais

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I for one am getting a bit bored with the 'nerf module x' - ECM mods were nerfed becuase no body would fit the counter ECCM (admitedly not a great counter but it did eventually get boosted). Now RSDs are getting it in the neck because (apparently) fitting a sensor booster 'wastes a valuable slot'. No it doesn't: you choose not to fit the counter, you suffer the disadvantage. NOS gets the same grief - yes its frustrating to get nossed in your inty, but then should 1 inty, or even a couple of frigates disable a BS?? A small frig swarm of 5-6 frigs can avoid the effects of most Heavy Nos fitted BS, with the possible exception of nosdomi - a quite specialized ship.

I think the nerf bat should be put away for a while - and more thought put into how we can 'adapt' our ships mid combat because the real reason the 'nerf it!' cries go up is because once you're in space and engaged thats it - you're stuck with the set up you have.
Think about it this way, if you could 'scale' your cap replen rate, shields, weapon rof and so forth by shifting more, or less power to discreet functions combat would become more tactical and hopefully last a bit longer. Getting nossed? - flick the sliding scale control to boost cap replen (perhaps rof on weapons drops), want more firepower - boost your guns up etc etc etc. Alternatively more mods should require activation to provide a bonus (say heat sinks for example).

yes this is a bit more of a 'button mashing' style of play but some comprimises or changes to the way combat happens will be needed otherwise everything will have been nerfed until we're all flying around in identikit ships...

C.

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Very true.
Combat is moving too fast in a direction where all alternative approaches are being removed. One of the great things about combat in eve is the way you can win by choosing better tactics instead of having more skill points. SP help, but are not as essential as a decent combat strategy and good use of tactics.
With the ECM and WCS nerf the game took a huge step towards "Click F1-F8 Hah, got there first", by largely removing the possibility of changing the tactical enviroment by subgames. (Who has more Warp points, ew superiority).
This has lead to some redicilous approaches to enable using tactics (nanoships) and largely has only detoriated the gameing experiense.
Now the forum whineage is turning towards the last alternative approaches to combat by raw dps. Damps, nos and drones. If they get pwnd, the pvp content in eve is largely brought down to the "what level is your priest" so common in other games. I truly hope that the devs don't continue on the slippery slope of the nerf bat, and listen to the dps obsessed forum community and rather think about the game as a whole and keep to the unique approach the game has offered us in the past.

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Originally by: Auron Shadowbane

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simple solution:
make ALL (yes, ALL, ecm, rsd, nos, neut, td and whatnot) offensive modules HIGH slot modules.

then you have a perfectly balanced systhem of drones & high for offense (guns & EW) and mids & lows for defense.

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Originally by: Adunh Slavy

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/signed

It is not about guns right now, the OP is correct. It is about who can drain the other guys mana, oops, I mean cap first.

The balance issue, or logic behind cap drain weapons is so that two ships aren't stuck pounding each other for 30 minutes because of big tanks. But, is that such a big deal. Stand offs can happen and should happen.

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Originally by: Splagada

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SEED ME DADDY

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Originally by: Nicocat

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So setups have a rock-paper-scissors feel to them. Do you know how to solve that problem? Bring a rock AND a scissors. Quit flying solo.

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