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Is combat no longer about combat?

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Kodiak31415 Black Lance Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.02.08 03:33:00 - [1] Edited by: Kodiak31415 on 08/02/2007 03:32:56 When I think of combat in eve I think about ships blowing the stuffing out of eachother, tanking, ganking, big booms, massive 8 gun/launcher battleships standing toe to toe blasting eachother into little itty bitty peices. "Wave of mutilation 2 style" for thoes you that have seen it. Or like some of the Lock n' Load video fights. But it seems that combat in eve is now more based on the "other stuff". Look at ships like the myridon, curse, nannodomi/phoon. Look at the dominance of EW, damps, tracking disruptors, and above all else nos. The big guns and launchers are silent because they ship they're attached to are damped down to 5km lock range. You somehow manage to wait through the 2 minute lock time and lock a target 5km away from you! Now that little damper is going to die! But wait.....you have no cap to fire your guns because it's all been sucked off by nos! Not to worry, you picked minmatar or caldari and don't need cap to fire your guns! Too late, you got ecm'ed, now your going to have to wait 2.5 minutes to get another lock. Time to turrtle up and use that handy rep bonus that your ship has...but you have no cap to rep with. So slowly your tank fails, as you sit there as harmless as a veldspar asteroid watching your hardcore tanked death dealing uber ship get slowly picked apart by a couple of little leech ships that you should have been able to blast to smithereens within seconds of getting a lock. BTW, this wasn't supposed to be a whine (It did kind of turn into one). It was going to be an observtion of mine and I wanted to know how the rest of the playerbase felt about it. Please keep replies constructive, you can tell me I'm wrong without calling me a noob/idiot/moron/asking if I even play eve ect... Am I wrong here or is eve combat now all about EW and cap warfare with damage only becoming a factor once a ship is defanged and nosed to the point of death? I want people to see a hyperion or abbadon and think "if that guy has a close rang gank setup were toast" not just "meh, slap some damps and nos on him and watch him wither away on the vine." I know CCP wanted to increase combat times but did do it at the cost of combat itself? Am I just full of nonsense? Is there a way to 'fix' this without remving EW and nos from the game completley? Does it even need to be fixed?
Moraguth Amarr Rangers	Posted - 2007.02.08 03:43:00 - [2] Never done this before, but all i can really say is /signed combat should be epic. All that stuff about "everything has a counter" is a bunch of bs and you know it. good game
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar	Posted - 2007.02.08 03:44:00 - [3] Cap injector and sensor boosters FTW!
mechtech	Posted - 2007.02.08 03:49:00 - [4] I think there should be rigs that counter EW for ships that do what you said, simply tank and deal damage. Also, nosses need to be nerfed (easily shown by the nos-fest that was the alliance tournament.) Most people favor giving nos a sig radius. I actually like the idea of 1/2ing the power of nos and making it easier to fit, while keeping neuts exactly the same, as they don't get enough use as it is. Inertial stabs need stacking as well, having BSs warp away in under 5 seconds is simply ridiculous. Between these 3 changes, maybe some of what you want addressed can be fixed. Who knows, maybe some people actually like combat this way though. I like eve combat, but everything is becoming too specialized. All out speed, all out gank, full rack of nos. It's like the damage mod phenomenon we had before stacking penalties, but spread to about 5 distinct areas.
Souvera Corvus Gallente Purify Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.08 03:50:00 - [5] Interesting question. For the first time, I was recently webbed, nossed and scrammed by a Rapier and effectively couldn't fart without permission. It was frustrating to be sure and I just had to sit there and watch my Shield, armour and hull disappear over the horizon with absolutely no chance of a comeback. As I watched it though, I just thought 'How the hell has he/she managed to do that?' and then 'what would I have to do to get out of it?'. I'm convinced there's an answer that lies in better skills, better set-ups or better tactics and I'm glad for it because it would be shame for combat to always be decided by a goon with bigger guns. Gives you something to think about in your pod on the way home.................. So, I'm not sure it needs to be fixed but can appreciate the frustration of not being able to open up with your T2 rails because because someone's locked you down with a 2 bit jammer. If it happened to me every week though I'd be inclined to ask more questions. "If man does not know to which port he is sailing, no wind is favourable"
Vim Spiritus Draconis Endless Horizon	Posted - 2007.02.08 03:56:00 - [6] People are learning to take thoose things and put them into a collaborate effort working togheter with a couple of small ships versus a battleship. Tactics and teamwork(the T in MMO) makes things intersting compared to: My big phat ship can tank this much and do this haxxor damage with my big guns! Basicly teamwork>solo as it should be else we humans wouldnt have come this far. /* Teach a rookie today watch him takedown a battleship tomorrow... */
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.08 03:59:00 - [7] You know all that stuff Sun Tzu wrote about war? Yeah, he wasn't kidding. War and combat has always been about ensuring you've won before the lasers start pew pewing.
Cabadrin Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.08 04:00:00 - [8] Time to jump in the motherships or titan and clear out those pesky wabbits _______________________________________________
Rhaegar Targarin Minmatar	Posted - 2007.02.08 04:07:00 - [9] I wish I had started playing Eve back when it was like people say it was. Rhaegar Targarin - Minmatar Combat Pilot
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.02.08 04:17:00 - [10] I like that there are other ways than just the biggest guns/missiles/drones to win battles in this game. I don't want those other ways to become more dominant than weapon systems, but that's probably not going to happen because when it comes down to it, all the NOS and EW in the galaxy isn't going to kill your opponents' ships without weaponry. That doesn't mean those things aren't overpowered--in some respects I think they are. But even if they're nerfed I hope they remain a major force in the game, and something that puts fear into combat pilots. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.02.08 04:23:00 - [11] I don't get why CCP doesn't yet get the patern with every problem of overpowered modules: gankageddons (damage mods aplenty), nanophoons (speed mods aplenty), nosdomi (nos aplenty)... I mean, for crissakes! Just put a limit on the number of mods of a certain type you can put on a ship, and the problem will be fixed! Anyways, IBTL Originally by: Glenntwo You should be an anti pirate because you enjoy giving a player who is looking for an unfair fight an extremely unfair fight
Starlixum Lyla Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.08 06:25:00 - [12] Originally by: Kodiak31415 Edited by: Kodiak31415 on 08/02/2007 03:32:56 When I think of combat in eve I think about ships blowing the stuffing out of eachother, tanking, ganking, big booms, massive 8 gun/launcher battleships standing toe to toe blasting eachother into little itty bitty peices. "Wave of mutilation 2 style" for thoes you that have seen it. Or like some of the Lock n' Load video fights. But it seems that combat in eve is now more based on the "other stuff". Look at ships like the myridon, curse, nannodomi/phoon. Look at the dominance of EW, damps, tracking disruptors, and above all else nos. The big guns and launchers are silent because they ship they're attached to are damped down to 5km lock range. You somehow manage to wait through the 2 minute lock time and lock a target 5km away from you! Now that little damper is going to die! But wait.....you have no cap to fire your guns because it's all been sucked off by nos! Not to worry, you picked minmatar or caldari and don't need cap to fire your guns! Too late, you got ecm'ed, now your going to have to wait 2.5 minutes to get another lock. Time to turrtle up and use that handy rep bonus that your ship has...but you have no cap to rep with. So slowly your tank fails, as you sit there as harmless as a veldspar asteroid watching your hardcore tanked death dealing uber ship get slowly picked apart by a couple of little leech ships that you should have been able to blast to smithereens within seconds of getting a lock. BTW, this wasn't supposed to be a whine (It did kind of turn into one). It was going to be an observtion of mine and I wanted to know how the rest of the playerbase felt about it. Please keep replies constructive, you can tell me I'm wrong without calling me a noob/idiot/moron/asking if I even play eve ect... Am I wrong here or is eve combat now all about EW and cap warfare with damage only becoming a factor once a ship is defanged and nosed to the point of death? I want people to see a hyperion or abbadon and think "if that guy has a close rang gank setup were toast" not just "meh, slap some damps and nos on him and watch him wither away on the vine." I know CCP wanted to increase combat times but did do it at the cost of combat itself? Am I just full of nonsense? Is there a way to 'fix' this without remving EW and nos from the game completley? Does it even need to be fixed? I lost my first ship tonight in a PvP battle while my partner and I were pirate hunting in the local asteroid belts. We were jumped by a set of four pilots. Both my partner and I were warp jammed, radar jammed, no capacitor due to NOS, etc. It was an interesting experience sitting there watching my ship dead before a single shot was fired. They executed their attack very well. I'd have to agree it's irritating, but it's apart of Eve. Starlixum Personnel Manager The Lyla Syndicate Recruitment Thread!
Bryg Philomena Green Lantern Corps	Posted - 2007.02.08 06:32:00 - [13] FoF http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=465618
Jerick Ludhowe Internet Tough Guys Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.08 06:59:00 - [14] Originally by: Vim People are learning to take thoose things and put them into a collaborate effort working togheter with a couple of small ships versus a battleship. Tactics and teamwork(the T in MMO) makes things intersting compared to: My big phat ship can tank this much and do this haxxor damage with my big guns! Basicly teamwork>solo as it should be else we humans wouldnt have come this far. Can't agree with you more man. Corp mate and I have been spending the vast majority of our time flying around in a couple t1 cruisers as of late. With good positioning and the right combination of skills/ships that complement eachother we've managed to come out on top in allot of fights that I simply would not even have considered a couple months back. It's all about teamwork, comunication and planning. Get the right positioning and get the hostiles where you want them to be and there really is nothing you can't do. To the OP, there are more ships than just battleships with big guns that simply trade blows and tank. Most (some suck) ships have a place in this game and that usually means that they also don't have a place as well. Get a buddy to cover the weakness of your setup/ship and you his and you're golden. Above all else though, learn from your mistakes and the isk you granted your killer and don't make that same mistake again. Heinrich Klaus: "You need to get a leet signature you****got"
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.08 07:03:00 - [15] Variety and tactics make it fun. Just firing vollies back and forward is predictible and boring. [OMG! CURRENTLY RECRUITING!]
hotgirl933	Posted - 2007.02.08 07:07:00 - [16] kill 2 birds with one stone nerf nos by giving any use of it a sig radius boost as an offset as well as reducing inertia ( NOS = reducing speed and turning speed) and the benefits are sustain a tank, suck youre opponent On the other hand ishtab and nano fittings give a 10% reduction for each one fitted penalty to any NOS u have fitted Therefore u either fit ishtabs-nanos or NOS. Kills to birds with one stones and gives a slight nerf to nanodomis and nanophoons that are around atm
Altai Saker Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.02.08 07:08:00 - [17] Edited by: Altai Saker on 08/02/2007 07:05:55 Variety is fun but the speed in which nos take your cap vs how long you need it is **** up and broken. Also sensor damps seem a bit strong especially vs carriers. Tracking disruptor's are definitely sub par compared to ecm and sensor damps respectively. Originally by:** hotgirl933 kill 2 birds with one stone nerf nos by giving any use of it a sig radius boost as an offset as well as reducing inertia ( NOS = reducing speed and turning speed) and the benefits are sustain a tank, suck youre opponent On the other hand ishtab and nano fittings give a 10% reduction for each one fitted penalty to any NOS u have fitted Therefore u either fit ishtabs-nanos or NOS. Kills to birds with one stones and gives a slight nerf to nanodomis and nanophoons that are around atm An interesting solution, but probably ruins curse or pilgrim. http://www.omniscient-order.com/
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2007.02.08 07:24:00 - [18] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 08/02/2007 07:21:57 Originally by: Kodiak31415 Edited by: Kodiak31415 on 08/02/2007 03:32:56 When I think of combat in eve I think about ships blowing the stuffing out of eachother, tanking, ganking, big booms, massive 8 gun/launcher battleships standing toe to toe blasting eachother into little itty bitty peices. "Wave of mutilation 2 style" for thoes you that have seen it. Or like some of the Lock n' Load video fights. But it seems that combat in eve is now more based on the "other stuff". Look at ships like the myridon, curse, nannodomi/phoon. Look at the dominance of EW, damps, tracking disruptors, and above all else nos. The big guns and launchers are silent because they ship they're attached to are damped down to 5km lock range. You somehow manage to wait through the 2 minute lock time and lock a target 5km away from you! Now that little damper is going to die! But wait.....you have no cap to fire your guns because it's all been sucked off by nos! Not to worry, you picked minmatar or caldari and don't need cap to fire your guns! Too late, you got ecm'ed, now your going to have to wait 2.5 minutes to get another lock. Time to turrtle up and use that handy rep bonus that your ship has...but you have no cap to rep with. So slowly your tank fails, as you sit there as harmless as a veldspar asteroid watching your hardcore tanked death dealing uber ship get slowly picked apart by a couple of little leech ships that you should have been able to blast to smithereens within seconds of getting a lock. BTW, this wasn't supposed to be a whine (It did kind of turn into one). It was going to be an observtion of mine and I wanted to know how the rest of the playerbase felt about it. Please keep replies constructive, you can tell me I'm wrong without calling me a noob/idiot/moron/asking if I even play eve ect... Am I wrong here or is eve combat now all about EW and cap warfare with damage only becoming a factor once a ship is defanged and nosed to the point of death? I want people to see a hyperion or abbadon and think "if that guy has a close rang gank setup were toast" not just "meh, slap some damps and nos on him and watch him wither away on the vine." I know CCP wanted to increase combat times but did do it at the cost of combat itself? Am I just full of nonsense? Is there a way to 'fix' this without remving EW and nos from the game completley? Does it even need to be fixed? A lot of what you describe is true. But personally i think it needs to stay this way. Because it gives more variation. it give posibilities. Now, its not all about your itchy triggerfinger on the gun. Now its more what fitting you have, and what setup and what fight you have picked. It certainly gives way more challenges, but is not that what EVE is about? Its not that you are not using your guns at all - you still do! It is just not everything anymore.. That is just my observation anyway. Originally by: Eldo Davip PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT. WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
Larkonis Trassler g guild	Posted - 2007.02.08 07:47:00 - [19] So you're upset that combat isn't all about F1-F8 eh? There are certain aspects of the game that are maybe a little overpowered. But you've got to remember, all these mean and nasty bits of EWAR are available to you too! A well coordinated gang with a good mix of EWAR should be able to easily own a similar sized gang without it. People need to get out of the F1-F8 mentality and start using all these other tools at their disposal to bring about the swift defeat of their enemy. ------------ Crow Squad... An Audio and Visual Joygasm by Larkonis Trassler
Allantia FW Inc Kith of Venal	Posted - 2007.02.08 08:56:00 - [20] Edited by: Allantia on 08/02/2007 08:58:00 /signed Combat in EVE today is all about having the most I-WIN buttons - ECM & NOS. Edit: Can't blame CCP entirely though. The dominate attitude regarding PvP is just as responsible for the problems... no one cares about having fights that are even remotely balanced or challenging, it's all about getting that killmail.
DarkFenix Caldari Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.08 09:37:00 - [21] I'll agree with the OP on one point only. Nos's. They're just a bit too good against smaller ships (considering years ago CCP deliberately introduced tracking to make large weapons not hit small ships, and more recently missiles were nerfed against smaller ships too). Other than that, I can't see what people are complaining about. You're complaining that enemy support ships are using their nerf-bat modules to gimp your ship before it fires a shot. The solution is simple, fly with your own support. Your support lets loose the pew pew on enemy support, while the battleships or whatever damage dealers slug it out. Obviously this is a massive simplification, but is in essence true. To analogise it to real life, real wars are not fought by lines of tanks driving up to one another then fighting until one side wins. They get air support, recon/intel support, infantry support, and any side without this kind of support is at a serious disadvantage.
Jon Hawkes Dark Angel Security	Posted - 2007.02.08 09:56:00 - [22] I thought most of the combat took place on the forums...
Cailais Amarr Domus Fatalis X-PACT	Posted - 2007.02.08 10:01:00 - [23] Originally by: Allantia Edited by: Allantia on 08/02/2007 08:58:00 /signed Combat in EVE today is all about having the most I-WIN buttons - ECM & NOS. Edit: Can't blame CCP entirely though. The dominate attitude regarding PvP is just as responsible for the problems... no one cares about having fights that are even remotely balanced or challenging, it's all about getting that killmail. I for one am getting a bit bored with the 'nerf module x' - ECM mods were nerfed becuase no body would fit the counter ECCM (admitedly not a great counter but it did eventually get boosted). Now RSDs are getting it in the neck because (apparently) fitting a sensor booster 'wastes a valuable slot'. No it doesn't: you choose not to fit the counter, you suffer the disadvantage. NOS gets the same grief - yes its frustrating to get nossed in your inty, but then should 1 inty, or even a couple of frigates disable a BS?? A small frig swarm of 5-6 frigs can avoid the effects of most Heavy Nos fitted BS, with the possible exception of nosdomi - a quite specialized ship. I think the nerf bat should be put away for a while - and more thought put into how we can 'adapt' our ships mid combat because the real reason the 'nerf it!' cries go up is because once you're in space and engaged thats it - you're stuck with the set up you have. Think about it this way, if you could 'scale' your cap replen rate, shields, weapon rof and so forth by shifting more, or less power to discreet functions combat would become more tactical and hopefully last a bit longer. Getting nossed? - flick the sliding scale control to boost cap replen (perhaps rof on weapons drops), want more firepower - boost your guns up etc etc etc. Alternatively more mods should require activation to provide a bonus (say heat sinks for example). yes this is a bit more of a 'button mashing' style of play but some comprimises or changes to the way combat happens will be needed otherwise everything will have been nerfed until we're all flying around in identikit ships... C. www.sefrim.com - sig design - eve mail for details
el commandante Delta team Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.08 10:50:00 - [24] Originally by: DarkFenix I'll agree with the OP on one point only. Nos's. They're just a bit too good against smaller ships (considering years ago CCP deliberately introduced tracking to make large weapons not hit small ships, and more recently missiles were nerfed against smaller ships too). Other than that, I can't see what people are complaining about. You're complaining that enemy support ships are using their nerf-bat modules to gimp your ship before it fires a shot. The solution is simple, fly with your own support. Your support lets loose the pew pew on enemy support, while the battleships or whatever damage dealers slug it out. Obviously this is a massive simplification, but is in essence true. To analogise it to real life, real wars are not fought by lines of tanks driving up to one another then fighting until one side wins. They get air support, recon/intel support, infantry support, and any side without this kind of support is at a serious disadvantage. qft ----------------------------------------- if you own something that you cant leave behind in 5 min it owns you. i was owned once too.
Mr Mozzie Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.02.08 11:08:00 - [25] Originally by: Jon Hawkes I thought most of the combat took place on the forums... lol!!! u win eve Seriously, I suspect that the devs have deliberately included ecm etc to encourae team play and decourage solo pvp.
Laboratus Gallente BGG	Posted - 2007.02.08 11:57:00 - [26] Originally by: Cailais I for one am getting a bit bored with the 'nerf module x' - ECM mods were nerfed becuase no body would fit the counter ECCM (admitedly not a great counter but it did eventually get boosted). Now RSDs are getting it in the neck because (apparently) fitting a sensor booster 'wastes a valuable slot'. No it doesn't: you choose not to fit the counter, you suffer the disadvantage. NOS gets the same grief - yes its frustrating to get nossed in your inty, but then should 1 inty, or even a couple of frigates disable a BS?? A small frig swarm of 5-6 frigs can avoid the effects of most Heavy Nos fitted BS, with the possible exception of nosdomi - a quite specialized ship. I think the nerf bat should be put away for a while - and more thought put into how we can 'adapt' our ships mid combat because the real reason the 'nerf it!' cries go up is because once you're in space and engaged thats it - you're stuck with the set up you have. Think about it this way, if you could 'scale' your cap replen rate, shields, weapon rof and so forth by shifting more, or less power to discreet functions combat would become more tactical and hopefully last a bit longer. Getting nossed? - flick the sliding scale control to boost cap replen (perhaps rof on weapons drops), want more firepower - boost your guns up etc etc etc. Alternatively more mods should require activation to provide a bonus (say heat sinks for example). yes this is a bit more of a 'button mashing' style of play but some comprimises or changes to the way combat happens will be needed otherwise everything will have been nerfed until we're all flying around in identikit ships... C. Very true. Combat is moving too fast in a direction where all alternative approaches are being removed. One of the great things about combat in eve is the way you can win by choosing better tactics instead of having more skill points. SP help, but are not as essential as a decent combat strategy and good use of tactics. With the ECM and WCS nerf the game took a huge step towards "Click F1-F8 Hah, got there first", by largely removing the possibility of changing the tactical enviroment by subgames. (Who has more Warp points, ew superiority). This has lead to some redicilous approaches to enable using tactics (nanoships) and largely has only detoriated the gameing experiense. Now the forum whineage is turning towards the last alternative approaches to combat by raw dps. Damps, nos and drones. If they get pwnd, the pvp content in eve is largely brought down to the "what level is your priest" so common in other games. I truly hope that the devs don't continue on the slippery slope of the nerf bat, and listen to the dps obsessed forum community and rather think about the game as a whole and keep to the unique approach the game has offered us in the past. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.08 12:09:00 - [27] Remember folks; sitting there ECMing/Nossing a target and neither of you doing very much of anything is 'tactics'. All that stuff about damage per second, rep per second, ammo types and resists is mindless button mashing. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Spanker Genco	Posted - 2007.02.08 12:21:00 - [28] Originally by: Bryg Philomena FoF I never have FoF in my Raven. Seeing as you can't kill things with regular cruises, FoF's are just lol - Shpank
Topaz Skydiver	Posted - 2007.02.08 12:22:00 - [29] Edited by: Topaz Skydiver on 08/02/2007 12:20:10 Problem with overpowered high speed ships is that they use weapons that are uneffected by the speed of that ship. They can't be tracked by their enemies guns anymore, the enemies missile damage gets extremely reduced too by the explosion velocity vs. ship velocity factor, but their own weapons like nos, missiles, drones hit the slow enemy with full damage. If we want to keep those speeds, which are surely fun, I like it especially on my Hurricane, then the tracking formulas and missile damage formulas need a look. Can't be that you hit some ultra-fast ship with only 0.6 damage with precision cruise, chance to track it with guns zero, while it fires missiles itself at you and hits full damage. It's rediculous imho.
Escaped Convict	Posted - 2007.02.08 13:04:00 - [30] Originally by: Kodiak31415 Edited by: Kodiak31415 on 08/02/2007 03:32:56 When I think of combat in eve I think about ships blowing the stuffing out of eachother, tanking, ganking, big booms, massive 8 gun/launcher battleships standing toe to toe blasting eachother into little itty bitty peices. "Wave of mutilation 2 style" for thoes you that have seen it. Or like some of the Lock n' Load video fights. But it seems that combat in eve is now more based on the "other stuff". Look at ships like the myridon, curse, nannodomi/phoon. Look at the dominance of EW, damps, tracking disruptors, and above all else nos. The big guns and launchers are silent because they ship they're attached to are damped down to 5km lock range. You somehow manage to wait through the 2 minute lock time and lock a target 5km away from you! Now that little damper is going to die! But wait.....you have no cap to fire your guns because it's all been sucked off by nos! Not to worry, you picked minmatar or caldari and don't need cap to fire your guns! Too late, you got ecm'ed, now your going to have to wait 2.5 minutes to get another lock. Time to turrtle up and use that handy rep bonus that your ship has...but you have no cap to rep with. So slowly your tank fails, as you sit there as harmless as a veldspar asteroid watching your hardcore tanked death dealing uber ship get slowly picked apart by a couple of little leech ships that you should have been able to blast to smithereens within seconds of getting a lock. BTW, this wasn't supposed to be a whine (It did kind of turn into one). It was going to be an observtion of mine and I wanted to know how the rest of the playerbase felt about it. Please keep replies constructive, you can tell me I'm wrong without calling me a noob/idiot/moron/asking if I even play eve ect... Am I wrong here or is eve combat now all about EW and cap warfare with damage only becoming a factor once a ship is defanged and nosed to the point of death? I want people to see a hyperion or abbadon and think "if that guy has a close rang gank setup were toast" not just "meh, slap some damps and nos on him and watch him wither away on the vine." I know CCP wanted to increase combat times but did do it at the cost of combat itself? Am I just full of nonsense? Is there a way to 'fix' this without remving EW and nos from the game completley? Does it even need to be fixed? So basicaly what you are saying is that the ship with the biggest guns/missiles wins? if so you are playing the wrong game, eve is all about setup skill "player skill" and being in the right place at the right time. if DPS and youre tank was the only thing that ditermined youre win then eve would be a very boaring place. im not saying there is no room for these massiv DPS blaster machins, what im saying is if you fly one then you need cover from friends ie intys to takle and intercept other intys EW ships to counter there EW and mabey some nos of youre own to counter ther nos adnenergy transfere :) eve rocks cuz even a well setup small ship can take out a massiv gun platform ship if its not setup to deal with you. NOS ECM DAMPANING and all the others add flavour to eve in a way DPS on its couldnot. http://www.badongo.com/pic.php?file=new+banner__2005-12-31_Unfortunate+Banner.jpg
d026 Herrscher der Zeit Jagdgeschwader The Pentagram	Posted - 2007.02.08 13:13:00 - [31] no eve is not only about cap warfare and ew. eve is about cap, ew, counter ew, tanking AND DPS! i got shot to pieces bevore i was even able to get in nos range of this blaster mega:) thats what makes eve so greate, you never know what you are flying into. every fight is a challange due to the insane amount of different setups you can fit!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.08 13:14:00 - [32] Originally by: Escaped Convict Originally by: Kodiak31415 Edited by: Kodiak31415 on 08/02/2007 03:32:56 When I think of combat in eve I think about ships blowing the stuffing out of eachother, tanking, ganking, big booms, massive 8 gun/launcher battleships standing toe to toe blasting eachother into little itty bitty peices. "Wave of mutilation 2 style" for thoes you that have seen it. Or like some of the Lock n' Load video fights. But it seems that combat in eve is now more based on the "other stuff". Look at ships like the myridon, curse, nannodomi/phoon. Look at the dominance of EW, damps, tracking disruptors, and above all else nos. The big guns and launchers are silent because they ship they're attached to are damped down to 5km lock range. You somehow manage to wait through the 2 minute lock time and lock a target 5km away from you! Now that little damper is going to die! But wait.....you have no cap to fire your guns because it's all been sucked off by nos! Not to worry, you picked minmatar or caldari and don't need cap to fire your guns! Too late, you got ecm'ed, now your going to have to wait 2.5 minutes to get another lock. Time to turrtle up and use that handy rep bonus that your ship has...but you have no cap to rep with. So slowly your tank fails, as you sit there as harmless as a veldspar asteroid watching your hardcore tanked death dealing uber ship get slowly picked apart by a couple of little leech ships that you should have been able to blast to smithereens within seconds of getting a lock. BTW, this wasn't supposed to be a whine (It did kind of turn into one). It was going to be an observtion of mine and I wanted to know how the rest of the playerbase felt about it. Please keep replies constructive, you can tell me I'm wrong without calling me a noob/idiot/moron/asking if I even play eve ect... Am I wrong here or is eve combat now all about EW and cap warfare with damage only becoming a factor once a ship is defanged and nosed to the point of death? I want people to see a hyperion or abbadon and think "if that guy has a close rang gank setup were toast" not just "meh, slap some damps and nos on him and watch him wither away on the vine." I know CCP wanted to increase combat times but did do it at the cost of combat itself? Am I just full of nonsense? Is there a way to 'fix' this without remving EW and nos from the game completley? Does it even need to be fixed? So basicaly what you are saying is that the ship with the biggest guns/missiles wins? if so you are playing the wrong game, eve is all about setup skill "player skill" and being in the right place at the right time. if DPS and youre tank was the only thing that ditermined youre win then eve would be a very boaring place. im not saying there is no room for these massiv DPS blaster machins, what im saying is if you fly one then you need cover from friends ie intys to takle and intercept other intys EW ships to counter there EW and mabey some nos of youre own to counter ther nos adnenergy transfere :) eve rocks cuz even a well setup small ship can take out a massiv gun platform ship if its not setup to deal with you. NOS ECM DAMPANING and all the others add flavour to eve in a way DPS on its couldnot. FYI: The person with the biggest NOS/ECM winning is worse than the person with the biggest guns winning. At least the guys with the guns are actually fighting. NOS/ECM fight Guns fight ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.08 13:41:00 - [33] Originally by: Crumplecorn FYI: The person with the biggest NOS/ECM winning is worse than the person with the biggest guns winning. At least the guys with the guns are actually fighting. NOS/ECM fight Guns fight Yes, clearly they're fighting. F1, F2, F3 - totally fighting. Oh wait, Nos and ECM - why, they use the same buttons? Well I'll be damned. The point is, you seem to be equating combat to shooting guns. This is retarded. EVE combat is about who can out-think and out-manoeuver their opponent. In this sense, DPS is the least of your concerns with the exception of ensuring you have enough of it. Knowing what they're flying, ensuring the engagement happens on your terms, getting the right balance of EWar in your gang, attacking their capacitor appropriately to destroy their tank (more dictating the engagement really) - these are the actual parts of fighting. People who can't think outside of "GUNZ!" really don't deserve to win.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.08 13:52:00 - [34] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 08/02/2007 13:49:13 Originally by: James Duar Originally by: Crumplecorn FYI: The person with the biggest NOS/ECM winning is worse than the person with the biggest guns winning. At least the guys with the guns are actually fighting. NOS/ECM fight Guns fight Yes, clearly they're fighting. F1, F2, F3 - totally fighting. Oh wait, Nos and ECM - why, they use the same buttons? Well I'll be damned. The point is, you seem to be equating combat to shooting guns. This is retarded. EVE combat is about who can out-think and out-manoeuver their opponent. In this sense, DPS is the least of your concerns with the exception of ensuring you have enough of it. Knowing what they're flying, ensuring the engagement happens on your terms, getting the right balance of EWar in your gang, attacking their capacitor appropriately to destroy their tank (more dictating the engagement really) - these are the actual parts of fighting. People who can't think outside of "GUNZ!" really don't deserve to win. Combat is shooting guns, everything else is support. Anyway, Eve is simply not built that way. You have DPS ships, Nos ships and ECM ships, among others. 1 of these wins by shooting. 2 of these win by stopping the enemy from shooting. All 3 basically work the same way, as you pointed out. We might as well at least all be shooting at each other rather than ****ing around with overpowered support modules. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Losmandy VENOM72 Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.08 14:22:00 - [35] My jammer, damper, hauler is great
Cailais Amarr Domus Fatalis X-PACT	Posted - 2007.02.08 14:26:00 - [36] Nerfing modules like this is a cyclical argument. Very very few pilots now fit ECM, why? Because it's largely useless. Result - everyone fits the next best alternative - RSDs. So we nerf them, everyone fits tracking distruptors, more wineage, they get nerfed. And so on and so on. Eventually (and purely because pilots can't adapt or just want a 'shoot gunz' button) we all sit there shooting. GREAT! I hear you cry...but oh noes! What's this?? Gun 'X' is seen as too uber! Nerf it!1!1! And so we go on until eventually we are all left with civ gatling guns and a few armour mods looking at each other thinking 'what happend to that great game called Eve'? C. www.sefrim.com - sig design - eve mail for details
Cipher7 Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.08 15:51:00 - [37] /agree pvp has turned into a bunch of leechboats trying to outsuck each other
Cipher7 Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.08 15:51:00 - [38] /agree pvp has turned into a bunch of leechboats trying to outsuck each other
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.08 15:53:00 - [39] Originally by: Cipher7 /agree pvp has turned into a bunch of leechboats trying to outsuck each other OMG. That is such an excellent way of putting it. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.08 15:53:00 - [40] Originally by: Cipher7 /agree pvp has turned into a bunch of leechboats trying to outsuck each other OMG. That is such an excellent way of putting it. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.08 15:56:00 - [41] The funniest thing about this topic is that the EW the op hates so much is the best defense against the NOS the op hates equally much. Be glad combat isn't just about shooting eachother with guns, that'd be so utterly boring... Yes nos need a looking at for a bit, but in general the complainst about EW and nos being equally important as guns or tanking being something that is basically wrong are ridiculous. EW is just another tool, just like your turret or launcher or repairer. [center] Old blog
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.08 15:56:00 - [42] The funniest thing about this topic is that the EW the op hates so much is the best defense against the NOS the op hates equally much. Be glad combat isn't just about shooting eachother with guns, that'd be so utterly boring... Yes nos need a looking at for a bit, but in general the complainst about EW and nos being equally important as guns or tanking being something that is basically wrong are ridiculous. EW is just another tool, just like your turret or launcher or repairer. [center] Old blog
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.08 16:03:00 - [43] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 08/02/2007 16:01:21 Originally by: Rod Blaine Yes nos need a looking at for a bit, but in general the complainst about EW and nos being equally important as guns or tanking being something that is basically wrong are ridiculous. EW is just another tool, just like your turret or launcher or repairer. Negative. You have gank, and you have tank. They are the two basic components of any ship setup. Just look at the slot system we have. Anyway, Gank/Tank Vs. Gank/Tank comes down to setup/resists/etc. Gank Vs. Nos Vs. ECM Vs. Whatever is basically Rock-Paper-Scissors. For example: Gank/Tank Vs ECM? ECM Wins. Gank/ECCM Vs. ECM? Gank/ECCM Wins. Gank/ECCM Vs. Gank/Tank? Gank/Tank Wins. Nos/ECM Vs. Anything? Nos/ECM Wins. We might as well just dock the ships and go back to actual Rock-Paper-Scissors. Either way the fight is won or lost before it begins, but the former way you at least have some nice fighting and a struggle to win against a superior opponent. The latter way you go 'oh crap I have paper against his scissors' and you watch your ship die. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Politocratis	Posted - 2007.02.08 16:05:00 - [44] I fail to see how EW is not combat related? Anything that adds to taking down your enemy can be considered combat related and is FAR more interesting that simply shooting at something. Sorry you can handle the complexities of it, but don't ruin the beauty of this game for the rest of us. Coming from someone who use to serve on a REAL combat ship, EW is an INTEGRAL part to surviving and killing and is given serious attention, sometimes more so than the guns.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.08 16:10:00 - [45] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 08/02/2007 16:10:25 Originally by: Politocratis I fail to see how EW is not combat related? Anything that adds to taking down your enemy can be considered combat related and is FAR more interesting that simply shooting at something. Sorry you can handle the complexities of it, but don't ruin the beauty of this game for the rest of us. Coming from someone who use to serve on a REAL combat ship, EW is an INTEGRAL part to surviving and killing and is given serious attention, sometimes more so than the guns. Yes, sometimes moreso than the guns. It's a support system. Not a replacement for actual combat. Anyway, I'm quite happy with the complexity of it, it's the game that isn't. Highs: Gank Mids: PvP/Cap Modules Lows: Tank ECM: ???? Because you have to compromise your setup to include ECM or ECCM, you end up with the situation I outlined above. Sure I can fit ECCM on my ship, just as pro-ECM people suggest. But then I run into a non-ECM ship, and my setup has useless modules. I fit only gank/tank. But then I run into an ECM ship, and they make some of my modules useless by jamming me. Or, I fit Gank/Tank, my opponent does as well, and we duke it out with all of our modules on both sides working at full capacity. This sounds more interesting to me, and I don't see how it removes complexity since it involves using your entire ship to it's potential, as opposed to boiling down to whether your opponent chooses rock or paper against you. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Knubbins McGee Duck Farts	Posted - 2007.02.08 16:29:00 - [46] Originally by: Laboratus Originally by: Cailais I for one am getting a bit bored with the 'nerf module x' - ECM mods were nerfed becuase no body would fit the counter ECCM (admitedly not a great counter but it did eventually get boosted). Now RSDs are getting it in the neck because (apparently) fitting a sensor booster 'wastes a valuable slot'. No it doesn't: you choose not to fit the counter, you suffer the disadvantage. NOS gets the same grief - yes its frustrating to get nossed in your inty, but then should 1 inty, or even a couple of frigates disable a BS?? A small frig swarm of 5-6 frigs can avoid the effects of most Heavy Nos fitted BS, with the possible exception of nosdomi - a quite specialized ship. I think the nerf bat should be put away for a while - and more thought put into how we can 'adapt' our ships mid combat because the real reason the 'nerf it!' cries go up is because once you're in space and engaged thats it - you're stuck with the set up you have. Think about it this way, if you could 'scale' your cap replen rate, shields, weapon rof and so forth by shifting more, or less power to discreet functions combat would become more tactical and hopefully last a bit longer. Getting nossed? - flick the sliding scale control to boost cap replen (perhaps rof on weapons drops), want more firepower - boost your guns up etc etc etc. Alternatively more mods should require activation to provide a bonus (say heat sinks for example). yes this is a bit more of a 'button mashing' style of play but some comprimises or changes to the way combat happens will be needed otherwise everything will have been nerfed until we're all flying around in identikit ships... C. Very true. Combat is moving too fast in a direction where all alternative approaches are being removed. One of the great things about combat in eve is the way you can win by choosing better tactics instead of having more skill points. SP help, but are not as essential as a decent combat strategy and good use of tactics. With the ECM and WCS nerf the game took a huge step towards "Click F1-F8 Hah, got there first", by largely removing the possibility of changing the tactical enviroment by subgames. (Who has more Warp points, ew superiority). This has lead to some redicilous approaches to enable using tactics (nanoships) and largely has only detoriated the gameing experiense. Now the forum whineage is turning towards the last alternative approaches to combat by raw dps. Damps, nos and drones. If they get pwnd, the pvp content in eve is largely brought down to the "what level is your priest" so common in other games. I truly hope that the devs don't continue on the slippery slope of the nerf bat, and listen to the dps obsessed forum community and rather think about the game as a whole and keep to the unique approach the game has offered us in the past. Both are QFT. I personally believe that most of these type of complaints (like the OPs) comes from missioners trying out PvP for the first time. I ran missions for the first 6 months I played and never once had to equip ECCM, warp stabs, Sensor boosters, etc. I was free to train pure dmg skills along with some shield skills for defense and my mods reflected this. Then came my first few journeys into low sec. Suddenly I 'needed' cap boosters, ECM, ECCM, warp jammers, etc. Personally, I think that starting with select L2 missions, most L3 missions and all L4 missions the NPCs should behave more like a 'typical' PvP encounter (jamming, scramming, light Nos, etc). This would give mission runners a much better grasp of the basics of PvP. Understanding the basics of PvP should serve two purposes: Help missioners protect themselves from 'ganks' during missions and cut down on the forum complaints about unconsensual PvP.
Houzukimaru World Order The Imperial Order	Posted - 2007.02.08 16:29:00 - [47] I totally agree... NOS & EW are to overpowered and should be removed, cause its unfair that I lose... also specialized ships are overpowered as well, because as you all know all encounters HAVE to be 'equal' so nomore Intys,recon,af, or Hacs. But why stop there? That means that people with T2 guns and mods will always win... and thats simply not fair (I mean why should the people with more money win the fight right?) so away with T2 modules. BUT if we're going to make things "fair and Balanced" we can't have named or faction gear also cause that would tilt the scales... OK now we have a fair eve Yeah.... I don't think we should nerf anything else >.> BTW the op said he wanted "Wave of mutilation 2 style" fighting... altough in that vid he had nos and ECM equiped in most the fights... just an observation
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.08 16:32:00 - [48] I'm glad I became familiar with the term 'Straw Man Argument' the other day, because it's a handy label for half the posts in here. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.08 16:42:00 - [49] /signed It is not about guns right now, the OP is correct. It is about who can drain the other guys mana, oops, I mean cap first. The balance issue, or logic behind cap drain weapons is so that two ships aren't stuck pounding each other for 30 minutes because of big tanks. But, is that such a big deal. Stand offs can happen and should happen. -AS
Auron Shadowbane	Posted - 2007.02.08 17:14:00 - [50] simple solution: make ALL (yes, ALL, ecm, rsd, nos, neut, td and whatnot) offensive modules HIGH slot modules. then you have a perfectly balanced systhem of drones & high for offense (guns & EW) and mids & lows for defense.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.08 17:49:00 - [51] Originally by: Auron Shadowbane simple solution: make ALL (yes, ALL, ecm, rsd, nos, neut, td and whatnot) offensive modules HIGH slot modules. then you have a perfectly balanced systhem of drones & high for offense (guns & EW) and mids & lows for defense. Does this include webbers and disruptors? They fall under ECM too. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.08 17:49:00 - [52] Originally by: Adunh Slavy /signed It is not about guns right now, the OP is correct. It is about who can drain the other guys mana, oops, I mean cap first. The balance issue, or logic behind cap drain weapons is so that two ships aren't stuck pounding each other for 30 minutes because of big tanks. But, is that such a big deal. Stand offs ~~can happen and~~ should happen. Fixed ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.02.08 18:00:00 - [53] Combat is about killing the other bastard, not about what you used to do it. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2007.02.08 18:05:00 - [54] So setups have a rock-paper-scissors feel to them. Do you know how to solve that problem? Bring a rock AND a scissors. Quit flying solo. ---------------------------- Originally by: Splagada SEED ME DADDY Down with alts! One character per account per IP!
Kodiak31415 Black Lance Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.02.08 18:47:00 - [55] First off, individual module nerf's aren't going to solve this 'problem'. ECM was just nerfed and look at what's happened, RSD's have come in to take its place. The fix for this is going to take a lot of thought and planning on CCP's part. Balancing a game like eve with so many options can't just be done with quick easy nerfs. I know that this is going to sound kind of lame but think of combat in eve as a steak, and the support stuff like nos ew rsd ect ect as the spices. They totally change combat but in the end theres still a big peice of meat (gun/tank combat) left at the core of things. As of right now the meat has been overspiced and it kind of ruins the whole experience. For thoes of you saying that I need to stop soloing and start going out in gangs, I haven't soloed in two or three months, I can only imagine that life for soloers is pretty bad right now. Personally I like to bring myrmidons (nos and damps) and bb's (Can still easily handle 2-3 bs with this baby) in gangs. I would like to bring out DPS ships but if I bring out a support ship, I can effectivly take 2-3 ships out of a fight before the first shot is fired. Effective? yes. Satisfiying? Not really I like that there are other ways to win fights than just blowing away the other guy and that there is a way to take megadeath pwnemall bs's out of the fight, but when a single cruiser or bc can effectivly elminate 2 big t2 fitted battleships worth 10x the ew/nos/rsd ship something is wrong. Gotta log now.... class is over and need to change comps, more rant to follow....... _______________________________ Idea stolen from DS: Pleese exucse any seplling erroos in this psot
Nezz Jaran	Posted - 2007.02.08 19:00:00 - [56] Originally by: Nicocat So setups have a rock-paper-scissors feel to them. Do you know how to solve that problem? Bring a rock AND a scissors. Quit flying solo. "It's a multiplayer game, how dare you by solo!" Sorry, people are going to play how they want to play. I tend to do stuff solo myself, I'm just careful about where I go and what I do. I've lost ships in PvP before. Hell, I've yet to win a PvP fight yet, primarily because I seem to run into people who've got 10+ months playing while my second account character (combat only) has about 2.5. I've had a couple of fights I "should have" won, until the attackers kicked in their NOS and cap-drained me. Did I ***** about? Yes, in my corp. Then I thought about my setup. I thought about his setup. I tried to figure out what I'd need to do to counter the cap. I've been ECM-locked, and I have a possible solution to that as well. Will I lose a ship in my next PvP encounter? Yeah, probably. I'm sure I'll run into another new tactic and be totally buggered again. But I will figure it out and try to find a way to beat it. My only complaint right now is with warp stabs, and it's essentially just a whine. Warp stabs are great for when you don't want to fight. However, if you are wstabbed up and you still get warp disrupted you are now totally buggered thanks to all those wonderful penalties incurred by fitting wstabs. That's like handing your opponent an "I Win!" button. But it's off topic and a whine, so I'll stop now.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2007.02.08 19:03:00 - [57] To the OP .. this is what is known as "tactics" and "strategy". I would HATE it if Eve combat was about toe to toe slug fest and the most isk and faction gear wins. If you want a game like that I believe Blizzard makes one. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2007.02.08 19:25:00 - [58] "To the OP .. this is what is known as "tactics" and "strategy". I would HATE it if Eve combat was about toe to toe slug fest and the most isk and faction gear wins. If you want a game like that I believe Blizzard makes one. " Hahahah get real those have nothing to do with tactics or strategy, anymore than which guns you pick. the fact is many of those mods are simply overpowered. The idea you can literally beat another ship without having guns mounted on your ship is rubbish YOU KNOW IT. I mean the OP said it all, jammed then you can't reaquire a target for TWO PLUS MINUTES? hahaha only a retard would suggest this is a balanced mod config. This is the same old crap people exploiting unbalanced aspects of the game which CCP is too slow to address. Just like how frigates and inty's can be untouchable orbiting a BS yet able to do some decent dmg, utter nonesense. So save all the condecending drivel acting like your some uber pvp master, because you know what not too long ago the set up it was the blasterthon and you played EVE just fine with the toe to toe slugfests that made it rule the day, before that it was the stacking MWD Raven loaded up with torps face to face slugging it out. In everyone of those occasions the same wanna be leet crap was spewed out that it was tactics and strategy. there is very little to NO tactics or strategy in eve. It is most often rock paper scissors the outcome decided before you guys meet, and not by some grand tactic or strategy, but simply by what you decided to bring a rock/paper/or scissors, beyond that tack on a healthy heaping of circle jerking with alot of friends so that you can ensure victory with numbers, and the tendancy to simply hunt PVE players and you got a recipe for lamer PVP. To the OP really to be effective in EVE pvp you pretty much need cap injectors btw.
Kenneys	Posted - 2007.02.08 20:16:00 - [59] I support the original poster. To most people who aren't. You're missing his point. He's saying space combat is more appealing when you have ships shooting at each other with big guns. Not who has the bigger jamming computer, or the bigger capacitor vampire. That's all.
Feric Jaggar	Posted - 2007.02.08 20:45:00 - [60] It's simple. Adapt or die. Evolve or become extinct. If you want to carry a club and fight like a neandertal. Don't complain when the modern humans use assault rifles on you. A pack of 100lbs wolves working together will take down the 1000lbs moose every time. Flying around in a battleship unescorted is a bad idea. Eve is a complex game. That's what I like about it. Electronic warfare makes combat that much more complex and a whole lot more fun. The bottom line is. You have to change with the times. Doing the same thing over and over and over and over again gets stale after a while. One more thing. Why do people want to nerf everything? Why not use your head for something beside growing hair out of?
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2007.02.08 20:47:00 - [61] The problem with EW is that being a victim of it is just not fun. Going down in a blaze of glory against a superior enemy with guns running hot and your reppers at least trying to keep you alive is fun. Silently watching a few bars go down while spamming 'warp to' button on a planet while still in shields because there is nothing else you can do is not. Now I guess people who only care about winning will love EW. People who are after more conventional fun probably not so much. Shame EVE PvP attracts mostly the former. Might be one of the reasons why so many people stay in empire and PvE, NPCs don't use much 'lame' EW. And really, all EW does it shift the balance from who has the best equipment to who has the most ships with EW. And I really don't know if the latter is truly better. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Kovid Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.02.08 20:52:00 - [62] Let me take you down with my potent EW target painters. ---------------------------------- An informal Star Fraction FAQ \| ----------------------------------
Kunming Outcasts	Posted - 2007.02.08 21:03:00 - [63] Tux did it Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
pauleuler	Posted - 2007.02.08 21:05:00 - [64] I once saw a martial arts demo (in the 80's lol). An old Japanese guy (a Karate Ka called Harada) took on all comers. He dropped all the local "John Wayne" big punch lamers on there asses (mostly unhurt but with ego busies). I loved it ... and took up a martial art. BUT by mates though it was lame... they really, really hated the jap guy winning! I was stunned, but they saw skill as cheating. They wanted the big tough hard men to win. They though that was the natural order of things and they saw anything else as cheating or wrong in some way. Me, I saw my former mates as ...
pauleuler	Posted - 2007.02.08 21:05:00 - [65] I once saw a martial arts demo (in the 80's lol). An old Japanese guy (a Karate Ka called Harada) took on all comers. He dropped all the local "John Wayne" big punch lamers on there asses (mostly unhurt but with ego busies). I loved it ... and took up a martial art. BUT by mates though it was lame... they really, really hated the jap guy winning! I was stunned, but they saw skill as cheating. They wanted the big tough hard men to win. They though that was the natural order of things and they saw anything else as cheating or wrong in some way. Me, I saw my former mates as ...
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.08 21:09:00 - [66] Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 08/02/2007 21:12:01 Originally by: Crumplecorn I'm glad I became familiar with the term 'Straw Man Argument' the other day, because it's a handy label for half the posts in here. Interestingly, half of the posts in here are written by you. Quote: Gank Vs. Nos Vs. ECM Vs. Whatever is basically Rock-Paper-Scissors. No. False. Quote: For example: Gank/Tank Vs ECM? ECM Wins. ECM has been nerfed, and it has zero effect on drones and F.O.F. - you think your ECM has a chance against Ogre II's? Each combat situation is so different, it's a straw man just to try and generalize and simplify it like you do here. Quote: Gank/ECCM Vs. ECM? Gank/ECCM Wins. Both ECM and ECCM uses up one midslot. Who wins in an ECM/ECCM-fight depends on the rest of their fitting, what dps, what ships, remote-repping and thousands of other factors (may I say SKILLS?) Quote: Gank/ECCM Vs. Gank/Tank? Gank/Tank Wins. Having ECCM doesn't rule out a tank, please get a clue. Quote: Nos/ECM Vs. Anything? Nos/ECM Wins. NOS is very powerful in close quarters combat, until it faces... say a passively tanked Drake&Ferox where the NOS is pointless. Also, NOS doesn't work if you have ECM, and the NOS becomes a useless high-slot item as soon as the target runs out of cap (eg. on said passively tanked ship). I think you need to do some more combat before you continue to speak on the subject. [OMG! CURRENTLY RECRUITING!]
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.08 21:09:00 - [67] Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 08/02/2007 21:12:01 Originally by: Crumplecorn I'm glad I became familiar with the term 'Straw Man Argument' the other day, because it's a handy label for half the posts in here. Interestingly, half of the posts in here are written by you. Quote: Gank Vs. Nos Vs. ECM Vs. Whatever is basically Rock-Paper-Scissors. No. False. Quote: For example: Gank/Tank Vs ECM? ECM Wins. ECM has been nerfed, and it has zero effect on drones and F.O.F. - you think your ECM has a chance against Ogre II's? Each combat situation is so different, it's a straw man just to try and generalize and simplify it like you do here. Quote: Gank/ECCM Vs. ECM? Gank/ECCM Wins. Both ECM and ECCM uses up one midslot. Who wins in an ECM/ECCM-fight depends on the rest of their fitting, what dps, what ships, remote-repping and thousands of other factors (may I say SKILLS?) Quote: Gank/ECCM Vs. Gank/Tank? Gank/Tank Wins. Having ECCM doesn't rule out a tank, please get a clue. Quote: Nos/ECM Vs. Anything? Nos/ECM Wins. NOS is very powerful in close quarters combat, until it faces... say a passively tanked Drake&Ferox where the NOS is pointless. Also, NOS doesn't work if you have ECM, and the NOS becomes a useless high-slot item as soon as the target runs out of cap (eg. on said passively tanked ship). I think you need to do some more combat before you continue to speak on the subject. [OMG! CURRENTLY RECRUITING!]
Sever Aldaria Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2007.02.08 21:12:00 - [68] People whine because their battleship gets primaried and near 1-volleyed by multiple other battleships so CCP boosts all ship HP to make combat last a bit longer. Now people complain that they get primaried and shut-down by ewar from multiple other pilots. Its a never-ending struggle it seems. Whatever CCP changes about game mechanics, people will find ways to gather and use the options they have available to them such that it removes as many options from the people they want to kill. It will always seem unfair unless you adapt and pick your fights as fights are seldom "fair" for everyone. Getting primaried when your enemy is countering your strength with ewar will effectively bind you. What it doesn't do though is bind the rest of your friends at the same time. Well... there's at least one way to do that but its not often used. [green]Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further d
Sever Aldaria Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2007.02.08 21:12:00 - [69] People whine because their battleship gets primaried and near 1-volleyed by multiple other battleships so CCP boosts all ship HP to make combat last a bit longer. Now people complain that they get primaried and shut-down by ewar from multiple other pilots. Its a never-ending struggle it seems. Whatever CCP changes about game mechanics, people will find ways to gather and use the options they have available to them such that it removes as many options from the people they want to kill. It will always seem unfair unless you adapt and pick your fights as fights are seldom "fair" for everyone. Getting primaried when your enemy is countering your strength with ewar will effectively bind you. What it doesn't do though is bind the rest of your friends at the same time. Well... there's at least one way to do that but its not often used. [green]Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further d
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.08 21:17:00 - [70] Originally by: Sever Aldaria People whine because they lack adaptability. There, fixed it for you. :) [OMG! CURRENTLY RECRUITING!]
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.08 21:17:00 - [71] Originally by: Sever Aldaria People whine because they lack adaptability. There, fixed it for you. :) [OMG! CURRENTLY RECRUITING!]
Portios Smith Sanguine Legion	Posted - 2007.02.08 21:20:00 - [72] Originally by: Cipher7 /agree pvp has turned into a bunch of leechboats trying to outsuck each other LMAO WoW player asks EVE player about EVE WoW Player: "So, what do you do in EVE?" EVE Player: "I suck and jam a lot. I PWN. EVE is so much better than WoW WoW player:
Portios Smith Sanguine Legion	Posted - 2007.02.08 21:20:00 - [73] Originally by: Cipher7 /agree pvp has turned into a bunch of leechboats trying to outsuck each other LMAO WoW player asks EVE player about EVE WoW Player: "So, what do you do in EVE?" EVE Player: "I suck and jam a lot. I PWN. EVE is so much better than WoW WoW player:
TZeer BURN EDEN GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.08 21:23:00 - [74] Only module that of the ones mentioned here that needs some love/nerf call it what you want is the nos... No doubt. Would be nice if people actually could see the whole picture and not the one that says: I got jammed one time and wasnt able to do one thing. They killed me. buhu ******* hu.. People say EW is overpowered... How? For jammers to be effective they need to be fitted to a dedicated ship. Rook, Falcon, BB, Scorp. Only ship in that group that has some firepower is the Rook.. and it isnt much. 2 Volleys of cruise and that falcon is dead. Rook is close to dead and BB likewise. Scorp is a little harder but isnt much of a trouble. Sensor damps: Before people starts to yell nerf, know how they work. I see so many posts in theese forums from people that scream for a nerf casue they got killed by a superior force or just had no clue on how the gamemechanics work. And the talk about jamming is a IWIN button, get real. Lets take 2 scenarios. First one a ship that have a small tank and lots of damage Vs a ship that have no tank but jammers. If the jammers never fails the ship will never die, but the ship that jams will never be able to kill the other one either, cause of the small damage it deals. Second one a ship that deals damage Vs a ship that can tank like hell and have a decent damage output. Damage ship isnt able to break the others tank and the tanking ship is slowly hurting the other ship. Does this mean that the tank is overpowered? Do we need to nerf it? Be able to see the whole picture. If that poor jamming ship loose jam for one cycle it`s most likely dead. Thats the way it is.
TZeer BURN EDEN GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.08 21:23:00 - [75] Only module that of the ones mentioned here that needs some love/nerf call it what you want is the nos... No doubt. Would be nice if people actually could see the whole picture and not the one that says: I got jammed one time and wasnt able to do one thing. They killed me. buhu ******* hu.. People say EW is overpowered... How? For jammers to be effective they need to be fitted to a dedicated ship. Rook, Falcon, BB, Scorp. Only ship in that group that has some firepower is the Rook.. and it isnt much. 2 Volleys of cruise and that falcon is dead. Rook is close to dead and BB likewise. Scorp is a little harder but isnt much of a trouble. Sensor damps: Before people starts to yell nerf, know how they work. I see so many posts in theese forums from people that scream for a nerf casue they got killed by a superior force or just had no clue on how the gamemechanics work. And the talk about jamming is a IWIN button, get real. Lets take 2 scenarios. First one a ship that have a small tank and lots of damage Vs a ship that have no tank but jammers. If the jammers never fails the ship will never die, but the ship that jams will never be able to kill the other one either, cause of the small damage it deals. Second one a ship that deals damage Vs a ship that can tank like hell and have a decent damage output. Damage ship isnt able to break the others tank and the tanking ship is slowly hurting the other ship. Does this mean that the tank is overpowered? Do we need to nerf it? Be able to see the whole picture. If that poor jamming ship loose jam for one cycle it`s most likely dead. Thats the way it is.
Sever Aldaria Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2007.02.08 21:26:00 - [76] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Originally by: Sever Aldaria People whine because they lack adaptability. There, fixed it for you. :) I thought that was implied. [green]Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further d
Sever Aldaria Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2007.02.08 21:26:00 - [77] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Originally by: Sever Aldaria People whine because they lack adaptability. There, fixed it for you. :) I thought that was implied. [green]Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further d
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2007.02.08 23:00:00 - [78] Originally by: TZeer Sensor damps: Before people starts to yell nerf, know how they work. I see so many posts in theese forums from people that scream for a nerf casue they got killed by a superior force or just had no clue on how the gamemechanics work. They whine because they cant think further than "my gun is bigger than yours" and they get out maneuvered, out tacticed and out thought. To people like the OP, out thinking them is not especially hard. I could kill his precious BS with 10 frigs while not loosing a single pilot. Why? Tactics. Eve is so rich in tactics and strategy and diversity that it **ES ME OFF when trolls like this want it nerfed to "who has the uber sword of doom wins?" If you want that kind of combat there are other games that offer it. Why do you get killed in pvp? Because you stink at it. You cant think, plan maneuver, react and adapt. You are the lowest on the food chain here and there are THOUSANDS of great pvpers that will rip your heart out and cook it for dinner. Stay in empire and stop trying to ruin the game. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?**
SSgt Sniper Gallente Zekarus Ltd.	Posted - 2007.02.08 23:27:00 - [79] Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 08/02/2007 13:49:13 Originally by: James Duar Originally by: Crumplecorn FYI: The person with the biggest NOS/ECM winning is worse than the person with the biggest guns winning. At least the guys with the guns are actually fighting. NOS/ECM fight Guns fight Yes, clearly they're fighting. F1, F2, F3 - totally fighting. Oh wait, Nos and ECM - why, they use the same buttons? Well I'll be damned. The point is, you seem to be equating combat to shooting guns. This is retarded. EVE combat is about who can out-think and out-manoeuver their opponent. In this sense, DPS is the least of your concerns with the exception of ensuring you have enough of it. Knowing what they're flying, ensuring the engagement happens on your terms, getting the right balance of EWar in your gang, attacking their capacitor appropriately to destroy their tank (more dictating the engagement really) - these are the actual parts of fighting. People who can't think outside of "GUNZ!" really don't deserve to win. Combat is shooting guns, everything else is support. Wrong. In EVE, as is much the same situation in modern military warfare, the battle is not fought in the field/system, but rather in the training/station. This has always been a little true in warfare, but it's more true even today. And there isn't a damn thing wrong with it, you don't get to go "Timeout, I'm fitted wrong for this". Instead, you get to fit a whole new ship. But by all means let's stick everyone in Domi's cahnge all weps in the game to 425's remove all ewar/Nos/Neut, and have boring slugouts detirmined by lag/skill clock. Because that will encourage the younger folks that they really can eventually compete with the three year olds.
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.08 23:58:00 - [80] Originally by: TZeer Only module that of the ones mentioned here that needs some love/nerf call it what you want is the nos... No doubt. Would be nice if people actually could see the whole picture and not the one that says: I got jammed one time and wasnt able to do one thing. They killed me. buhu ******* hu.. People say EW is overpowered... How? For jammers to be effective they need to be fitted to a dedicated ship. Rook, Falcon, BB, Scorp. Only ship in that group that has some firepower is the Rook.. and it isnt much. 2 Volleys of cruise and that falcon is dead. Rook is close to dead and BB likewise. Scorp is a little harder but isnt much of a trouble. Sensor damps: Before people starts to yell nerf, know how they work. I see so many posts in theese forums from people that scream for a nerf casue they got killed by a superior force or just had no clue on how the gamemechanics work. And the talk about jamming is a IWIN button, get real. Lets take 2 scenarios. First one a ship that have a small tank and lots of damage Vs a ship that have no tank but jammers. If the jammers never fails the ship will never die, but the ship that jams will never be able to kill the other one either, cause of the small damage it deals. Second one a ship that deals damage Vs a ship that can tank like hell and have a decent damage output. Damage ship isnt able to break the others tank and the tanking ship is slowly hurting the other ship. Does this mean that the tank is overpowered? Do we need to nerf it? Be able to see the whole picture. If that poor jamming ship loose jam for one cycle it`s most likely dead. Thats the way it is. You just won this thread. [OMG! CURRENTLY RECRUITING!]
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.08 23:58:00 - [81] Originally by: TZeer Only module that of the ones mentioned here that needs some love/nerf call it what you want is the nos... No doubt. Would be nice if people actually could see the whole picture and not the one that says: I got jammed one time and wasnt able to do one thing. They killed me. buhu ******* hu.. People say EW is overpowered... How? For jammers to be effective they need to be fitted to a dedicated ship. Rook, Falcon, BB, Scorp. Only ship in that group that has some firepower is the Rook.. and it isnt much. 2 Volleys of cruise and that falcon is dead. Rook is close to dead and BB likewise. Scorp is a little harder but isnt much of a trouble. Sensor damps: Before people starts to yell nerf, know how they work. I see so many posts in theese forums from people that scream for a nerf casue they got killed by a superior force or just had no clue on how the gamemechanics work. And the talk about jamming is a IWIN button, get real. Lets take 2 scenarios. First one a ship that have a small tank and lots of damage Vs a ship that have no tank but jammers. If the jammers never fails the ship will never die, but the ship that jams will never be able to kill the other one either, cause of the small damage it deals. Second one a ship that deals damage Vs a ship that can tank like hell and have a decent damage output. Damage ship isnt able to break the others tank and the tanking ship is slowly hurting the other ship. Does this mean that the tank is overpowered? Do we need to nerf it? Be able to see the whole picture. If that poor jamming ship loose jam for one cycle it`s most likely dead. Thats the way it is. You just won this thread. [OMG! CURRENTLY RECRUITING!]
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.09 00:11:00 - [82] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Originally by: TZeer Only module that of the ones mentioned here that needs some love/nerf call it what you want is the nos... No doubt. Would be nice if people actually could see the whole picture and not the one that says: I got jammed one time and wasnt able to do one thing. They killed me. buhu ******* hu.. People say EW is overpowered... How? For jammers to be effective they need to be fitted to a dedicated ship. Rook, Falcon, BB, Scorp. Only ship in that group that has some firepower is the Rook.. and it isnt much. 2 Volleys of cruise and that falcon is dead. Rook is close to dead and BB likewise. Scorp is a little harder but isnt much of a trouble. Sensor damps: Before people starts to yell nerf, know how they work. I see so many posts in theese forums from people that scream for a nerf casue they got killed by a superior force or just had no clue on how the gamemechanics work. And the talk about jamming is a IWIN button, get real. Lets take 2 scenarios. First one a ship that have a small tank and lots of damage Vs a ship that have no tank but jammers. If the jammers never fails the ship will never die, but the ship that jams will never be able to kill the other one either, cause of the small damage it deals. Second one a ship that deals damage Vs a ship that can tank like hell and have a decent damage output. Damage ship isnt able to break the others tank and the tanking ship is slowly hurting the other ship. Does this mean that the tank is overpowered? Do we need to nerf it? Be able to see the whole picture. If that poor jamming ship loose jam for one cycle it`s most likely dead. Thats the way it is. You just won this thread. He's also the best person to say it. BE are the living proof that superior tactics will obliterate flying in guns blazing.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.09 00:14:00 - [83] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 08/02/2007 21:12:01 Originally by: Crumplecorn I'm glad I became familiar with the term 'Straw Man Argument' the other day, because it's a handy label for half the posts in here. Interestingly, half of the posts in here are written by you. Yeah, I was referring pretty much to the other half. That being the half which sarcastically say "yes let's remove all nos/neut/ecm", even though that is not the argument being made by me or anyone else. It annoys the crap out of me that people in this thread completely avoid the argument, or in some genius cases come out with garbage like this: Originally by: Nicocat So setups have a rock-paper-scissors feel to them. Do you know how to solve that problem? Bring a rock AND a scissors. Quit flying solo. I mean, wow, there is so much wrong with that. Solo PvP shouldn't work? Eve combat should be Rock-Paper-Scissors, and the outcome determined by who brings the right number of each? If I want combat like that I'll go play Empire Earth thanks. All this talk about tactics and strategy is fairly retarded too. For a start, it isn't even relevant, the whole point is that Eve is switching over to counter-based combat due to the prevelance of certain modules, tactics and strategy can be applied in proper combat and RPS. But let's be nice and assume it is relevant for a second. If the best tactic you've got is 'fit ECM and hope the other guy doesn't have ECCM', you're going to.... well, win a lot of the time actually. That's the problem. This one requires a special mention: Originally by: Rells Originally by: TZeer Sensor damps: Before people starts to yell nerf, know how they work. I see so many posts in theese forums from people that scream for a nerf casue they got killed by a superior force or just had no clue on how the gamemechanics work. They whine because they cant think further than "my gun is bigger than yours" and they get out maneuvered, out tacticed and out thought. To people like the OP, out thinking them is not especially hard. I could kill his precious BS with 10 frigs while not loosing a single pilot. Why? Tactics. Eve is so rich in tactics and strategy and diversity that it ****ES ME OFF when trolls like this want it nerfed to "who has the uber sword of doom wins?" If you want that kind of combat there are other games that offer it. Why do you get killed in pvp? Because you stink at it. You cant think, plan maneuver, react and adapt. You are the lowest on the food chain here and there are THOUSANDS of great pvpers that will rip your heart out and cook it for dinner. Stay in empire and stop trying to ruin the game. I mean, this is excellence. Again, the classic ignorance of the point, thinking that anyone is asking for the complete removal of ECM/Nos. Equating being able to handle 10 frigs in such a way that you don't lose even one to a BS, to fitting ECM and getting lucky that the other guy doesn't have ECCM. I mean, WTF? Must be easier to handle those frigs than I imagined... Calling people trolls. Nice. Personal attacks add +5 validity to your argument. Even if we switch it around so it is his idea of combat that would wreck Eve (as opposed to yours), that still doesn't make him a troll. Grow up. Your final attempt at a flame sums up what is wrong with your argument. Think, plan, maneuver, react, adapt. 5 things which do you no good when locked down by an ECM/Nos ship. Or, if you are in a ECM/Nos ship and they countered you, and are slowly (or not so slowly) breaking what little tank you have. This has nothing to do with tactics, frig blobs, or anything else you mentioned. This is about Eve's combat becoming completely counter-based. This is fine in an RTS where you control all the units. But where you only have one ship, and it represents a considerable investment of your time, some people would like to avoid losing it simply because someone 'countered' them. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Running Mann	Posted - 2007.02.09 05:24:00 - [84] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: Allantia I think the nerf bat should be put away for a while - and more thought put into how we can 'adapt' our ships mid combat because the real reason the 'nerf it!' cries go up is because once you're in space and engaged thats it - you're stuck with the set up you have. Think about it this way, if you could 'scale' your cap replen rate, shields, weapon rof and so forth by shifting more, or less power to discreet functions combat would become more tactical and hopefully last a bit longer. Getting nossed? - flick the sliding scale control to boost cap replen (perhaps rof on weapons drops), want more firepower - boost your guns up etc etc etc. Alternatively more mods should require activation to provide a bonus (say heat sinks for example). Cap + heat management sounds like a great way to go. Who remembers in SimANT where you could slide the little control to shift between what kinds of ants you wanted and what behaviors you wanted? Something like that would be cool. Or one of those strange graphs like in DDR, and you move the points around or use a slider (that adjusts the graph-- graphs are awesome) to ask for more shield recharge, better ROF, better straight-up cap gain. We already have modules that give us something like this (flux) but alas that uses an omgmoduleslot. It might be neat if heat + cap controls were put in, and the modules that give a native boost one way or another were enhanced-- or maybe introduced as rigs instead, too. I like the idea that I can have my ship customizable, but I like the idea of having the mod kits available (rigs) to set my ship up just how I want it for that extra boost of _____ .
Royaldo Old Farts	Posted - 2007.02.09 06:29:00 - [85] omg i too sometimes lose a fight!! nerf all around!
Sever Aldaria Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2007.02.09 06:51:00 - [86] Edited by: Sever Aldaria on 09/02/2007 06:50:41 [EDIT] spelling Originally by: Crumplecorn Think, plan, maneuver, react, adapt. 5 things which do you no good when locked down by an ECM/Nos ship. Of course. That is because you should have done those 5 things before you got locked down, not after. Quote: This is about Eve's combat becoming completely counter-based. So, you don't want someone countering your rock with paper but rather whoever throws the biggest rock wins? Quote: This is fine in an RTS where you control all the units. But where you only have one ship, and it represents a considerable investment of your time, some people would like to avoid losing it simply because someone 'countered' them. EVE is a multiplayer game. To win engagements with multiple ships, you need to have teamwork and coordination similar to football/soccer. The captain forms a game plan but he can't control each of his players to do exactly what he wants them to do like an RTS; its up to the team to play as a team. When a player from the other team covers you such that you can't do anything to get open for a pass/play, you don't go and cry about it. 1v1 pvp is largly more about counters but what else could it be? If you can outank your opponent and beat his tank, you've countered him in terms of 'slug-fest'. This is how a Hurricane can beat a Raven. If you're faster than your opponent and stay out of his range or fly too fast for him to hit you while being able to hit him yourself, you've countered his 'slug-fest' with your speed. This is how a stabber can beat a Deimos. If you lure and web your speedy opponent who's forfeighted a solid tank for speed, then you've countered his speed with your ewar. This is how a merlin can beat a taranis. Don't like it that your ship can be countered by another ship using x setup with y mods applying z game plan? There will always be pvp counters in EVE, but should there be no counters? What else should it be? Should we just roll the dice? Should we turn it into a fps/flight sim such that whoever has the best connection/aim wins? Designing your whole setup around speed like a nanophoon is one counter for certain ships with certain setups. Putting on a few ewar mods while leaving the rest of the ship design relatively alone is another counter for certain ships with certain setups. There is a counter to everything including that which counters you. But if there weren't counters, then you'd have IWIN buttons and everyone would be flying the same "best" ship. \o [green]Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further d
TZeer BURN EDEN GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.09 07:10:00 - [87] Eve has always been about countering the other guys setup/tactic whatever. Longrange: Go closecombat/ Better guns/ More effective target calling/EW Closerange: Go longrange/better tank/EW/More effective targetcalling. Fast moving targets: Slow them down aka webbing NOS: Stay out of their range/Passive tanks EW: ECCM/Closerange/FOF/Drones The thing with eve is thats there are no IWIN setups. But there are setups and tactics that work very well and are more effective than others... Reason? Cause many people are so narrowminded about biggest gun and strongest tank. It`s all about outsmart your enemy. Think before you engage and you will most likely not loose your ship. Going into battle and not knowing what you gonna face is suicide, you have already lost then.
Bellum Eternus Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.09 09:47:00 - [88] Originally by: TZeer Only module that of the ones mentioned here that needs some love/nerf call it what you want is the nos... No doubt. Would be nice if people actually could see the whole picture and not the one that says: I got jammed one time and wasnt able to do one thing. They killed me. buhu ******* hu.. People say EW is overpowered... How? For jammers to be effective they need to be fitted to a dedicated ship. Rook, Falcon, BB, Scorp. Only ship in that group that has some firepower is the Rook.. and it isnt much. 2 Volleys of cruise and that falcon is dead. Rook is close to dead and BB likewise. Scorp is a little harder but isnt much of a trouble. Sensor damps: Before people starts to yell nerf, know how they work. I see so many posts in theese forums from people that scream for a nerf casue they got killed by a superior force or just had no clue on how the gamemechanics work. And the talk about jamming is a IWIN button, get real. Lets take 2 scenarios. First one a ship that have a small tank and lots of damage Vs a ship that have no tank but jammers. If the jammers never fails the ship will never die, but the ship that jams will never be able to kill the other one either, cause of the small damage it deals. Second one a ship that deals damage Vs a ship that can tank like hell and have a decent damage output. Damage ship isnt able to break the others tank and the tanking ship is slowly hurting the other ship. Does this mean that the tank is overpowered? Do we need to nerf it? Be able to see the whole picture. If that poor jamming ship loose jam for one cycle it`s most likely dead. Thats the way it is. I disagree 100% that ECM is 'useless' without a dedicated jamming ship. Example: I recently fought 2v1 against a Domi and a Tempest vs. my Domi. I had 3x best named Minmatar ECM fitted and all nos in the highs and an all T2 dual rep tank in the lows. I killed the Domi first while I ECMed the Tempest enough to keep it out of the fight until I killed the Domi, then I killed the Tempest. If ECM didn't work, I would have died. The Tempest was jammed 80% of the time, if not 90%. I nossed both of them dry before their tanks would break, but the point here is that I broke their tanks with NOS, not with drones. The nos did all the breaking, the drones simply erased their armor/structure after their cap was depleted. This is a classic example of how ECM and Nos, and especially the combination of both of them are horribly overpowered. And if you want a really nasty example, just look at the Curse. With Recon 4 and some faction med. nos you can nos from almost 50km away, and drain over 100 cap/sec with some nos/neuts. It's insane. Any ship that isn't completely 100% passive is dead meat. And if the Curse does come upon such a passive ship (Drakes are a great example) they can just fly off as the ship won't have enough cap to run it's scram. And speaking of Drakes, they are probably THE best ship in Eve to use against Nos/ECM ships due to a great 100% passive tank and FoFs out of their heavy launchers. If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer.
TZeer BURN EDEN GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.09 10:04:00 - [89] Edited by: TZeer on 09/02/2007 10:04:54 In my eyes the ecm worked as intended. You used 3 medslots and only going one type of racial. If you havent been able to jam that tempest I would say the ecm was broken. If you had another set of racials the outcome of the fight might have been different. But you if im not totally off here, you knew what you where engaging. You had some kinda intel on what you could expect. If that hadnt been a tempest the fight might have ended with you in a pod, or no fight at all. I dunno who engaged who. But the bottomline is, you countered 2 ships with fitting jammers specifically to neutralize the tempest until you had taken care of the domi. Edit: I didnt say the ecm was useless on other ships, I said that them to be effective they would need a dedicated ship.
Alexi Borizkova Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2007.02.09 10:15:00 - [90] Personally, I prefer the knock down drag out fights of tank vs tank, damage vs damage, with the last man standing in mostly one piece as the winner. A test of fitting prowess, isk for the best mods, and skills for everything from that last tiny 2% of damage to that big last 5% of cap size coming into the field as competing factors. E-war and nos setups seem like an entirely different class of combat to me, an entirely different philosophy and style. To my old school sensibilities it seems like they don't want a fight, they just want to win. A major shift from my personal desires. It'd be easy to say they are wrong, but that's just ego, they get to play the game their way. Personally however, I'd like to see more "conventional" warships, (tank+gank) out and about, and relish these sorts of fights when I can find them, which is rarely. For that matter, I prefer one on one fights to boot, and specially enjoy these when occasion permits. Calling a man a coward or unsporting for the current dominating speed, e-war or nos setups they use is just as foolish as saying that you're a coward if you wander into the infinite void with people at your side instead of alone. Who knows what the hell could be out there, it's simple common sense. Doesn't stop people from calling anyone in a gang "lame" when they stumble across some idiot too antisocial, ignorant or just plain unlucky to be out undefended and alone.
Lunadi Minmatar Solar Trade	Posted - 2007.02.09 10:48:00 - [91] Just an idea: And what if you could bookmark another ship location? Then you just have to warp-out, warp -in (to the 'last seen location'). Wouldn't it bring a bit of balance to this artillery dominated world?? -------- hate my spelling? go play SCRABBLE
TZeer BURN EDEN GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.09 11:20:00 - [92] Originally by: Lunadi Just an idea: And what if you could bookmark another ship location? Then you just have to warp-out, warp -in (to the 'last seen location'). Wouldn't it bring a bit of balance to this artillery dominated world?? What on earth have this to do about our discussion about EW/NOS and anything else I might have missed? And to the idea. We already have that option in the game. It`s called: Buddy in a covert...
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.09 11:22:00 - [93] Originally by: Sever Aldaria Stuff There's a difference between countering something and an actual direct counter to it. Such as the difference between countering someones setup with tactics (like controlling the range of the engagement) and actually flying the counter to their setup (like I AM OF ECM PHEAR MY JAMMING ALL WILL DIE). Of course combat comes down to countering tactics (in a non-RPS way), but that is exactly why combat made up of 'just slugfests' is not boring. All of the tactics you outlined in your post and more apply, making for interesting fighting. It's about quick thinking and adaptability and what you can make your ship do. However, when entire ships are actually each others counters, RPS style, you engage an opponent and find that before even trying to fire you have already lost. No tactics, no real fight, nothing you can do to even try to fight back. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
TZeer BURN EDEN GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.09 11:42:00 - [94] Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 09/02/2007 11:32:48 Originally by: Sever Aldaria Stuff There's a difference between countering something and an actual direct counter to it. Such as the difference between countering someones setup with tactics (like controlling the range of the engagement) and actually flying the counter to their setup (like I AM OF ECM PHEAR MY JAMMING ALL WILL DIE). Of course combat comes down to countering tactics (in a non-RPS way), but that is exactly why combat made up of 'just slugfests' is not boring. All of the tactics you outlined in your post and more apply, making for interesting fighting. It's about quick thinking and adaptability and what you can make your ship do. However, when entire ships are actually each others counters, RPS style, you engage an opponent and find that before even trying to fire you have already lost. No tactics, no real fight, nothing you can do to even try to fight back. Edit: Actually, I have an example of this in action; A few months ago myself and a few corpies had a bit of a 'party', which involved testing our ships against each other (well, really everyone trying to beat my Light Neutron Blasterax of Doom ). Most of the fights were 'slugfests', but were against different ships each time, and so went differently each time (with me winning each time I might add ). However at one point I took on an ECM-Vexor, and I called the fight before he even had my shields down, because it was blatantly obvious I wasn't even going to get a shot in. The application of a setup which simply negates all normal setups meant any and all intelligence went out of the fight, and it was just a question of how long it was going to take me to die. Now, had I gone an refitted in an ECM-resistant setup, I may have been able to find a way to beat him. However, going back to the other fights I then would have lost due to a gimped setup. Combat should not come down to having the right counter-setup fitted. Normal 'slugfest' setups leave plenty of room for variety and tactics, and mean you always have a chance if you're smart about it. So basically you liked the first fights casue you won all the time, and when someone finally found a counter to your setup it`s lame.... You also said that you could fit to counter that... But didnt want to, cause then you would might loose the other fights....
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.09 12:18:00 - [95] Originally by: TZeer So basically you liked the first fights casue you won all the time, and when someone finally found a counter to your setup it`s lame.... You also said that you could fit to counter that... But didnt want to, cause then you would might loose the other fights.... Way to miss the point genius. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Algey The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2007.02.09 12:24:00 - [96] What really annoys me about this type of thread is that people don't see the effort that goes into a dedicated ECM ship. My little Blackbird can shut down a much larger ship, however I am totally unable to affect the fight in any other way. If I came in a T2 sniper at 160km and BBQ'ed people instead of jamming them people wouldn't mind. However when I totally sacrifice taking that firepower and fly my little ECM ship people seem to think that I should be useless. Now I agree that there is something of a problem with non dedicated EW ships using EW, and I think that sensor damps and tracking disruptors should have a lower range and strength on non EW ships, with the same as now on dedicated EW ships. However even then people would complain when they were toasted by a team including one or more dedicated EW specialists. My pet bugbear however is nos, hate the damned thing
Sherpondeldey Minmatar SolaR KillerS	Posted - 2007.02.09 12:29:00 - [97] the problem is not with EW+NOS+drones combination. The problem is that there are only 4 types of T1 ships that can use it effectively: Dominix Myrmydon Vexor Arbitrator Only these ships have enough med slots to fit ewar AND drone damage bonuses. Arbitrator(and t2 verisons) is the only soloship of amarr. But something is defenitely wrong with gallente. I still could not manage to get an understanding why does armor tanking gallente recieved tier2 battlecruiser with more med slots than shield tanking minmatar... I don't really like the-more-nosferratu-the-better aproach of modern pvp. Every ship with large dronebay becomes overpowered because it doe not need its high slots for damage dealing. nerf gallente! return the 7th high slot to hurricane! :)
Neo Marak	Posted - 2007.02.09 12:37:00 - [98] We came across this problem recently, and at first i agreed with you, until one of my corp mates helped us out a lot. Basicly instead of going out like we originally were with pure combat ships, we switched more than half the fleet to support - be it ECM, ECCM or gang sensor boosting. It took us a lot of work - hell were still working on it - but now its a hell of a lot more fun that it was before. Earlier all we were doing was hoping to get enough of our ships in at the right spot at the right time, then inflicting enough damage and hoping to warp scram a few of them so they couldnt run. Now we have backup units, reinforcements waiting for out out-system, multiple fits per player and dedicated electronic warfare squads. Its hard to get useto to, but i personally believe once you do, it makes the experience a lot better :) Just my opinion
Xune The Black Rabbits Fatal Persuasion	Posted - 2007.02.09 12:38:00 - [99] All those people who keep telling that its good how it is, that's all about tactics. Where is the tactic ? where are the different setups, if you look around you see that anyone does the same. As is started it was " get as much 1400 on your ship as possible. Then it changed to " Use as many Heavy launchers with torps as possible" After that it was " Interceptors with cruise missiles" and so on, today everyone completely relay¦s on nos/ecm/nano setups. But hey.. if you cant beat them, join them. So i now use a lamer domi which performs better with 4m in drones then The Navy Mega with 15m in gunnery+drones. shrugs Lets hope the wheel turns once more and make the game interesting again.
Trev Kachanov STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.02.09 12:47:00 - [100] There is always a trade off... those ew/ecm ships are expensive and paper thin, you will never win 1 on 5 anymore with "just" guns and tank. I like the depth that this game is creating, it's very chess like in nature. start buddying up and diversifying your gang members w/ specific roles and you'll find you come out on top more often than not.
TZeer BURN EDEN GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.09 13:03:00 - [101] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: TZeer So basically you liked the first fights casue you won all the time, and when someone finally found a counter to your setup it`s lame.... You also said that you could fit to counter that... But didnt want to, cause then you would might loose the other fights.... Way to miss the point genius. I know im a genius, you dont have to tell me that.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.09 13:21:00 - [102] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: TZeer So basically you liked the first fights casue you won all the time, and when someone finally found a counter to your setup it`s lame.... You also said that you could fit to counter that... But didnt want to, cause then you would might loose the other fights.... Way to miss the point genius. Your entire statement is "I want an I win button" and don't try to pretend it was anything but. You don't like there being setups that you simply cannot beat in 1 particular ship setup. That is an i-win button.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.09 13:40:00 - [103] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 09/02/2007 13:40:48 Originally by: James Duar Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: TZeer So basically you liked the first fights casue you won all the time, and when someone finally found a counter to your setup it`s lame.... You also said that you could fit to counter that... But didnt want to, cause then you would might loose the other fights.... Way to miss the point genius. Your entire statement is "I want an I win button" and don't try to pretend it was anything but. You don't like there being setups that you simply cannot beat in 1 particular ship setup. That is an i-win button. What the hell are you on about? You seriously think I want a T1 cruiser that can beat anything? I've spent my entire time in this sorry excuse for a thread arguing against I-Win buttons. How could you think anyone could ever argue for a T1 cruiser that can beat everything anyway? The very concept is absurd. As for your statement "You don't like there being setups that you simply cannot beat in 1 particular ship setup. That is an i-win button", that's actually just wrong. An I-Win button is a setup that always wins. What I don't like, as you correctly point out, is setups which are impossible to beat with a particular setup (A.K.A. a counter). Not impossible to lose != always winning. In real world combat I almost always lose, sometimes through being outgunned, sometimes through being outsmarted. In this case I was in a series of fights which I won (even if only barely), but then someone fields a setup which is simply impossible for me to even fight against. And this being rebalanced so I have some chance of winning, if I'm good enough, makes my ship an I-Win button? ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Elaron Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.02.09 13:50:00 - [104] The enjoyment factor in EVE combat is asymmetric, probably by design, and is generally related to how much you can act in a given fight. Of course if you're NOSed, webbed, jammed and scrambled you're not going to like it - but the pilot(s) who have placed you in that untenable position are going to be loving it, especially if it's a wolfpack of smaller ships taking down a battleship or similarly valuable target. It's the same with how wars are fought in EVE - the single biggest factor in the win / loss of a war is the morale of the pilots on both sides to fight. The side that is constantly camped in and frequently has their lone pilots taken down is going to suffer more heavily on the morale front than the campers / gankers. This is the game, folks. Rarely fair, frustrating, complex. Personally, I love it.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.09 14:06:00 - [105] Originally by: Elaron The enjoyment factor in EVE combat is asymmetric, probably by design, and is generally related to how much you can act in a given fight. Of course if you're NOSed, webbed, jammed and scrambled you're not going to like it - but the pilot(s) who have placed you in that untenable position are going to be loving it, especially if it's a wolfpack of smaller ships taking down a battleship or similarly valuable target. It's the same with how wars are fought in EVE - the single biggest factor in the win / loss of a war is the morale of the pilots on both sides to fight. The side that is constantly camped in and frequently has their lone pilots taken down is going to suffer more heavily on the morale front than the campers / gankers. This is the game, folks. Rarely fair, frustrating, complex. Personally, I love it. If you think that that is what the game is about you've had a bad experience. Outside of trials against corpmates I've never had the ... priviledge of fighting an I-Win button, my enemies fought me with their guns and their cunning, and I've always at least been able to go down fighting. And in that game, even losing is not demoralising, because it's all too much fun. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
darkmancer	Posted - 2007.02.09 14:43:00 - [106] Everybody thinks somethings inbalanced and knows how to fix it, (personally change nos to affect recharge rate, have sensor damps give a speed penalty when active, and put stacking on nanao+overdvie mods). However just because you think somethings uber doesnt mean that it is :) Given the large range in ships and mods its surprising how balanced it is. ECM makes eve a much more interesting game, unfortunatly the nature of ecm, and playeers ability to exploit rules to the max, means they'll always be imbalances. --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.09 15:00:00 - [107] Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 09/02/2007 13:40:48 Originally by: James Duar Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: TZeer So basically you liked the first fights casue you won all the time, and when someone finally found a counter to your setup it`s lame.... You also said that you could fit to counter that... But didnt want to, cause then you would might loose the other fights.... Way to miss the point genius. Your entire statement is "I want an I win button" and don't try to pretend it was anything but. You don't like there being setups that you simply cannot beat in 1 particular ship setup. That is an i-win button. What the hell are you on about? You seriously think I want a T1 cruiser that can beat anything? I've spent my entire time in this sorry excuse for a thread arguing against I-Win buttons. How could you think anyone could ever argue for a T1 cruiser that can beat everything anyway? The very concept is absurd. As for your statement "You don't like there being setups that you simply cannot beat in 1 particular ship setup. That is an i-win button", that's actually just wrong. An I-Win button is a setup that always wins. What I don't like, as you correctly point out, is setups which are impossible to beat with a particular setup (A.K.A. a counter). Not impossible to lose != always winning. In real world combat I almost always lose, sometimes through being outgunned, sometimes through being outsmarted. In this case I was in a series of fights which I won (even if only barely), but then someone fields a setup which is simply impossible for me to even fight against. And this being rebalanced so I have some chance of winning, if I'm good enough, makes my ship an I-Win button? Define 'chance' - you want a jamming cycle to fail? What is "chance" in an MMO? There's no twitch gaming here just F1, F2, F3 and knowing what to engage, when to engage it and possible trying to convince them to fail a scram cycle so you can disengage. So yes, define what type of rebalance you want that doesn't translate to you having a ship setup which is an I-win button vs everything smaller.
TZeer BURN EDEN GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.09 15:21:00 - [108] Quote: but then someone fields a setup which is simply impossible for me to even fight against. And this being rebalanced so I have some chance of winning, if I'm good enough, makes my ship an I-Win button? Looks like you want your ship to be able to take on any opponent, no matter how much care and thoughts he have used to finetune his setup. That setup was maybe put on just to counter your ship. When he did that he had some open holes that made him very fragile and easy target for another ship. If you had a ship that could take on any targets and with your "skills" kill them, that would be very unbalanced. Everybody would fly that ship. And remember, this is a MULTIPLAYER game, focused on TEAMPLAY. Thats why we have something that we call damagedealers, tacklers, jammers and so on. One of the reasons you team up is to try and use the strengths of each ship and support eachother. If you find a ship that might give you trouble stay the hell away from it. And that is something you get to know through experience. If you still engage that target and start to whine about not beeing fair, and that you are not able to take it down, you are just beeing stupid and not accepting the fact that your ship is not fitted to do it alone. Everything in this game has a counter, just because you cant run the same setup against all targets dont make it unbalanced.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.09 15:35:00 - [109] Originally by: James Duar Define 'chance' - you want a jamming cycle to fail? What is "chance" in an MMO? There's no twitch gaming here just F1, F2, F3 and knowing what to engage, when to engage it and possible trying to convince them to fail a scram cycle so you can disengage. So yes, define what type of rebalance you want that doesn't translate to you having a ship setup which is an I-win button vs everything smaller. If I could tell you what sort of rebalance would fix it, well, I wouldn't tell you, I'd tell CCP. But, as pointed out above, this is not as simple as nerf/boost this/that, and I have no idea how it can be properly fixed. What I mean by 'chance' to win? Here's an example: My Thorax is more or less an I-Win button against smaller ships already, because I fit it that way. But if someone were to say, fit a frigate so it could web me and hold me so far away that I couldn't hurt them, but they could still hurt me, they would have a chance against me. However, I would web them back. But, I rely on and MWD for speed, which simply isn't sustainable. So what if they lead me in circles a bit first, entering combat at a longer range, waiting for me to have to slow down because my cap is gone. Then they can move in, web me, and have a windows of opportunity before I can MWD effectively again to get some free hits in. Or, I could save some cap, and run at them as they move in for the kill, rely on momentum to carry me close in and then web them. Etc etc etc etc etc. It's all about using what you've got to exploit the opponents weaknesses. --Or-- Fit ECM Activate ECM Opponents setup is now utterly useless I've seen the same thing when flying a rocket kestrel against frigates and cruisers. Several different fights, some wins, some losses, always close. All about whether I could keep my speed up while staying in rocket range (and failing to manage this for just a few seconds cost me a near-certain cruiser kill). Went up against a kestrel with ECM once. I fly in. I warp scramble. They jam me. I die. No fight whatsoever. If either of them were dedicated ECM ships I wouldn't mind; that's their thing, they're a special ship, and everyone knows that's their thing. But if you are able to turn any ship into an I-Win button against standard ships using ECM (for example), and need to fit a different fit to beat them it becomes counter-based. It even has a RPS relationship: ECM > Gank/Tank Gank/ECCM > ECM Gank/Tank > Gank/ECCM Why would you ever want a fight whose outcome is purely determined by which part of the triangle you are, when you can have such in depth combat when the I-Win buttons are removed? ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Sever Aldaria Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2007.02.09 15:45:00 - [110] Originally by: TZeer Everything in this game has a counter, just because you cant run the same setup against all targets dont make it unbalanced. Yep. And don't be surprised if you find your rook taken by a knight more often than your rook takes his knight. Does this make the knight overpowered? Use your bishop. Originally by: Crumplecorn ECM > Gank/Tank Gank/ECCM > ECM Gank/Tank > Gank/ECCM After kali severely nerfed ecm except on ecm dedicated ships, ecm domis and ecm vexors are no longer great. They can still jam you just like any other ship, but statistically speaking the odds are greatly against them. As far as going up against a blackbird/scorpion 1v1, I wouldn't pick that fight as I know it will be a stalemate for a long time of him jamming me and me tanking him. Of course I wouldn't be worried about getting jumped by him either . [green]Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further d
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.09 15:54:00 - [111] TZeer, you make some good points here, I threw a few direct responses in: Originally by: TZeer Looks like you want your ship to be able to take on any opponent, no matter how much care and thoughts he have used to finetune his setup. - I'm quite happy to lose if they use tactics, or even bigger guns, not by using an I-Win module That setup was maybe put on just to counter your ship. When he did that he had some open holes that made him very fragile and easy target for another ship. - In the Vexor example that setup was to counter my ship, I had already fought him before. But that's exactly my problem; he didn't adapt by changing tactics or tweaking his setup. He simply switched from rock to paper. I could have simply switched to scissors, and him to rock again, etc etc.. why bother? Why not use real tactics? If you had a ship that could take on any targets and with your "skills" kill them, that would be very unbalanced. Everybody would fly that ship. - I used that exact same setup in the field and almost always lost, sometimes because of SP skills, sometimes because of my RL skills. It's not about the specific ship, it's not even about ECM or Nos, it's about the fundamental gameplay. If you fly an absolute counter to someone else's ship, no skills of any kind come into it. And remember, this is a MULTIPLAYER game, focused on TEAMPLAY. Thats why we have something that we call damagedealers, tacklers, jammers and so on. - Counter-based combat makes more sense here, but it still simplistic. It's like playing C&C, micromanaged blobbing wins. Anyway, my general point in that there are two types of gameplay conflicting here. When 'normal' setups go head to head it's about tactics, pilot skill, SPs, the little details of your setup. In RPS every ship loses to one type and beats another type, and combat is only interesting on a macroscopic level. Going along with the RPS system doesn't benefit us; we have ECM and Nos ships anyway. If we reduce the use of this hardware in the 'normal' arena, you can still have your I-Win button ECM ship, it will simply be a dedicated ship which isn't great solo, as it is balanced in recognition of the fact that it is an I-Win against 'normal' setups. You use it in a gang, which is where RPS combat becomes interesting, and influences the normal more dynamic combat. With the prevelance of Nos/ECM/Whatever, RPS is overriding more general combat, reducing the variety and viability of ship setups. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Skraeling Shortbus Caldari Gallente Federal Bank Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.09 16:14:00 - [112] Originally by: d026 every fight is a challange due to the insane amount of different setups you can fit! Then why is it a given almost every ship will have nos on it?
Flegomeno Peos	Posted - 2007.02.09 16:17:00 - [113] Originally by: James Duar You know all that stuff Sun Tzu wrote about war? Yeah, he wasn't kidding. Wins the thread! \o/
SSgt Sniper Gallente Zekarus Ltd.	Posted - 2007.02.09 16:45:00 - [114] Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus Originally by: d026 every fight is a challange due to the insane amount of different setups you can fit! Then why is it a given almost every ship will have nos on it? Because armor tanking sucks, cap. Fast. --------- Representing all the casual gamers happily living in Empire, that want NO PART of your 0.0 annoyances. However, I do not represent my corp. We vote first.
Skraeling Shortbus Caldari Gallente Federal Bank Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.09 16:49:00 - [115] Yea I fly gallente, so i know what you mean.
TZeer BURN EDEN GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.09 16:56:00 - [116] Quote: - I'm quite happy to lose if they use tactics, or even bigger guns, not by using an I-Win module No such thing as an I-WIN module. Doomsday is close, or a dev in your pocket, but no module is an I-WIN. But when you say tweak the setup... How can he tweak his setup without changing modules? If you dont want anyone to be able to fit whatever they want on their ship, do you want us to get prefitted ships from CCP? Where the modules and guns are prefitted and not possible to take off? ECM is not an I-WIN. If he fits jammers on a ship not dedicated for it, it will eat his cap, and most likely fail multiple times. If you fit ECCM you will decrease his chance of jamming even more.

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