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Citadels won't make Excellent Trade Hubs

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DeLaBu Digital Origami Evictus. 34	Posted - 2016.03.17 07:42:00 - [1] - Quote The article announcing the Citadel Expansion here says: Quote: These monuments to the might and power of capsuleers make excellent trade hubs, hangar/residential quarters, and defensive stations. CCP : please take into account that this will not be true until contracts have been implemented in citadels. Contracts are a key part of moving stuff between characters that are either not online or not on location. I cannot see a trade hub like Jita being replaced by a Citadel without this mechanic in place, even with the higher taxes. I also don't think any alliance or corporation will stage out of one without this mechanic in place. Contracts will be very important for citadels to work to their full potential. Of course wormhole dwellers will get immediate benefit from these - bravo for them!
Nat Silverguard Aideron Robotics 374	Posted - 2016.03.17 08:27:32 - [2] - Quote my hype was killed by this.... most will build citadels of course but will not be living there exclusively because of this. Just Add Water
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 2285	Posted - 2016.03.17 08:49:04 - [3] - Quote Indeed. Citadels will not become relevant places for trading until both contracts and CREST functionality are added. Until then, the bulk of the trade will remain in NPC stations. Let's hope CCP follows through on their promises and eventually delivers those capabilities, or the dream of a player-owned trade hub will not materialize.
Krevnos Back Door Burglars The Otherworld 84	Posted - 2016.03.17 10:19:15 - [4] - Quote The feature set that Citadels are being deployed with is rather poor in general. Instead of exciting new options such as local police/gate gunsin null, system upgrades, changes even to local rats and sites etc., we instead are faced with 'gimped' versions of the old regular station with an added force field that happens to be able to dock a Titan. It just isn't exciting enough to be groundbreaking. Fixing all of the regular station features to work is essential prior to release, but the possibilities that could have been pursued but never were is what really gets me.
Zappity Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 2757	Posted - 2016.03.17 10:52:43 - [5] - Quote Yeah this is a pretty big drawback with citadels. They certainly won't turn into trade hubs until courier contracts are working. Same for staging with exchange contracts on fitted ships. But CCP has a good history with revisiting features in subsequent patches. Right? Oh, wait. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Postman EVE Postal Service 10	Posted - 2016.03.17 10:53:02 - [6] - Quote Bear in mind that this is just the first iteration of a much larger deployment. If CCP really follows through with this then we get everything people are hoping for mentioned above. Things like player build gates (and guns ofc), trade hubs, mining drills, moon harvesting, etc. Everything now owned by NPC or in POS form will eventually be transferred to Citadel or something like it. Provided the first iteration isn't a complete bust and the project gets moth-balled, like so many before...
Sustrai Aditua Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 8	Posted - 2016.03.17 12:10:00 - [7] - Quote I really don't think it was meant that you can build a shopping mall that will rival Jita. I think it was intended for a very dynamic market function you can take out to null with you. That way your entire group isn't forced to trek back and forth to town, or those with security issues don't have to piggy back on people who are able to make the journey. Of course, the more goods you want on hand to sell, the higher the likelihood you'll need some sort of freighter, or freight service. But, if you wish to provide (for a price) all the various replacement items most consumed by your corp's activities, I think this is about as good as anybody can do for you. I really can believe some people envisioned themselves as the proprietors of New Jita, or Rens East. What you should understand about these trade hubs we have in Empire space is, they weren't planned. They just happened. So, this sort of "happening" would have to happen to YOUR trade hub to have an equivalent. The odds of that happening are pretty...slim, to none.
FT Diomedes The Graduates 2368	Posted - 2016.03.17 13:34:05 - [8] - Quote Without the ability to have replacement ships fitted and up on contracts, I don't see many alliances using these as staging points. CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
Mr Mieyli Hedion University Amarr Empire 280	Posted - 2016.03.17 13:42:33 - [9] - Quote +1 OP Player corps in all areas of space need an incentive to get out of NPC stations and into destructible ones. I can't see this happening either without allowing contracts to be created in citadels, as others have said this ability is extremely important for corps and alliances. A case for more AoE in EvE
Scotsman Howard S0utherN Comfort Circle-Of-Two 66	Posted - 2016.03.17 13:55:36 - [10] - Quote DeLaBu wrote: The article announcing the Citadel Expansion here says: Quote: These monuments to the might and power of capsuleers make excellent trade hubs, hangar/residential quarters, and defensive stations. CCP : please take into account that this will not be true until contracts have been implemented in citadels. Contracts are a key part of moving stuff between characters that are either not online or not on location. I cannot see a trade hub like Jita being replaced by a Citadel without this mechanic in place, even with the higher taxes. I also don't think any alliance or corporation will stage out of one without this mechanic in place. Contracts will be very important for citadels to work to their full potential. Of course wormhole dwellers will get immediate benefit from these - bravo for them! It doesn't matter if contract are available or not (in high sec). I do not know why CCP thinks people will move out of Jita or the hubs into a player run structure that WILL be destroyed. I do not care if your stuff gets moved for free somewhere else in system, you will still have to wait x number of days to get it back (I do not think same system delivery is instant). Even if it is instant, you would then have to go through the process of moving the stuff to another citadel AND relisting every market order you had. The cost along of moving stuff a second time would eat away a ton of your profit margins from selling in a citadel. The worse case scenerio is people get locked out of the citadel and can't get their stuff back. I'm sorry, but CCP is failing on this particular idea. All that will happen is prices in Jita will rise to deal with the new taxes, and thus prices will rise everywhere in Eve because if we are honest, everything in Eve is priced in some way according to Jita prices.

Indahmawar Fazmarai 4928	Posted - 2016.03.17 14:13:49 - [11] - Quote DeLaBu wrote: The article announcing the Citadel Expansion here says: Quote: These monuments to the might and power of capsuleers make excellent trade hubs, hangar/residential quarters, and defensive stations. CCP : please take into account that this will not be true until contracts have been implemented in citadels. Contracts are a key part of moving stuff between characters that are either not online or not on location. I cannot see a trade hub like Jita being replaced by a Citadel without this mechanic in place, even with the higher taxes. I also don't think any alliance or corporation will stage out of one without this mechanic in place. Contracts will be very important for citadels to work to their full potential. Of course wormhole dwellers will get immediate benefit from these - bravo for them! Well, NPC stations are being hit with new taxes and clone jump fees just to make Citadels more attractive by comparison. CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now". 62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?" CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
Memphis Baas 1350	Posted - 2016.03.17 14:22:37 - [12] - Quote Scotsman Howard wrote: I do not know why CCP thinks people will move out of Jita or the hubs into a player run structure that WILL be destroyed. The worse case scenario is people get locked out of the citadel and can't get their stuff back. This. You can wax poetic about contracts and CREST so that CCP implements those features and doesn't forget about them, but no trader is going to move their stock to a citadel that can prevent them from docking and cancel their market privileges, the next day. The only way for a trader to be sure of continued access is if they own the citadel. So that's nice, actually, each trader would have their own citadel and a monopoly on the goods inside, not letting any other traders compete (because, why not). So a pipe dream situation, until they realize that their trade monopoly citadel can be blown up. So, I think CCP is imagining these things like in RL, where people would establish their own city-states and all would be peachy, but in EVE we burn things just for the hell of it, and city-states are just easy targets for the mongol hordes who have 0 assets invested in anything.
morion Lighting Build 71	Posted - 2016.03.17 14:24:55 - [13] - Quote Region buy orders: ??? Will start collecting STUFF at these locations added risk to region buy or multi jump orders? in form of frustration.
Indahmawar Fazmarai 4928	Posted - 2016.03.17 14:26:12 - [14] - Quote Scotsman Howard wrote: DeLaBu wrote: The article announcing the Citadel Expansion here says: Quote: These monuments to the might and power of capsuleers make excellent trade hubs, hangar/residential quarters, and defensive stations. CCP : please take into account that this will not be true until contracts have been implemented in citadels. Contracts are a key part of moving stuff between characters that are either not online or not on location. I cannot see a trade hub like Jita being replaced by a Citadel without this mechanic in place, even with the higher taxes. I also don't think any alliance or corporation will stage out of one without this mechanic in place. Contracts will be very important for citadels to work to their full potential. Of course wormhole dwellers will get immediate benefit from these - bravo for them! It doesn't matter if contract are available or not (in high sec). I do not know why CCP thinks people will move out of Jita or the hubs into a player run structure that WILL be destroyed. I do not care if your stuff gets moved for free somewhere else in system, you will still have to wait x number of days to get it back (I do not think same system delivery is instant). Even if it is instant, you would then have to go through the process of moving the stuff to another citadel AND relisting every market order you had. The cost along of moving stuff a second time would eat away a ton of your profit margins from selling in a citadel. The worse case scenerio is people get locked out of the citadel and can't get their stuff back. I'm sorry, but CCP is failing on this particular idea. All that will happen is prices in Jita will rise to deal with the new taxes, and thus prices will rise everywhere in Eve because if we are honest, everything in Eve is priced in some way according to Jita prices. The real irony here is that Jita is a player-made trade hub. Jita exists because what players do, and is driven by mass behavior forces and not individual will or CCP design. CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now". 62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?" CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
Mr Mieyli Hedion University Amarr Empire 280	Posted - 2016.03.17 14:32:44 - [15] - Quote Well that's all well and good, nobody is being forced out of NPC stations, however due to the tax increases it could be much cheaper buying goods from a player owned citadel. Citadels themselves have pretty good defences as well which makes them a little less likely to be destroyed by anything less than a concerted effort. Obviously like you say traders would need some kind of mechanical assurance that their orders won't be arbitrarily closed and their assets lost. I think it is unreasonable to expect most existing highsec corps to get their own citadels however I think the arrival of structures will force an improvement in the organisation of highsec corps. A successful highsec corp with a combination of industrials and combat pilots could establish a low tax market hub and defend it, attracting out-of-corp traders and bringing profit for the structure holder. A case for more AoE in EvE
Memphis Baas 1350	Posted - 2016.03.17 14:37:15 - [16] - Quote Mr Mieyli wrote: Well that's all well and good, nobody is being forced out of NPC stations, however due to the tax increases it could be much cheaper buying goods from a player owned citadel. Sorry, wrong. If a frigate costs 300k to make and is sold in Jita for 500k, resulting in 150k profit after 10% tax, why would the citadel trader not list his frigate also for 500k and get 190k profit after 2% tax? Things are NEVER cheaper to buy; the seller always goes for pocketing more profit. Mr Mieyli wrote: A successful highsec corp with a combination of industrials and combat pilots could establish a low tax market hub and defend it. Well, you always plan for the worst case scenario, and the worst case scenario is that your 500 bn citadel attracts the attention of PL or the Goons, who want to destroy it. So tell me what successful highsec corp with a combination of industrial and combat pilots will survive that attack on their fixed asset in space with known vulnerability timers.
Indahmawar Fazmarai 4928	Posted - 2016.03.17 14:39:12 - [17] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: Scotsman Howard wrote: I do not know why CCP thinks people will move out of Jita or the hubs into a player run structure that WILL be destroyed. The worse case scenario is people get locked out of the citadel and can't get their stuff back. This. You can wax poetic about contracts and CREST so that CCP implements those features and doesn't forget about them, but no trader is going to move their stock to a citadel that can prevent them from docking and cancel their market privileges, the next day. The only way for a trader to be sure of continued access is if they own the citadel. So that's nice, actually, each trader would have their own citadel and a monopoly on the goods inside, not letting any other traders compete (because, why not). So a pipe dream situation, until they realize that their trade monopoly citadel can be blown up. So, I think CCP is imagining these things like in RL, where people would establish their own city-states and all would be peachy, but in EVE we burn things just for the hell of it, and city-states are just easy targets for the mongol hordes who have 0 assets invested in anything. They are forgetting that it was players who built a marketplace in Jita. And those players won't be going anyhwere unless it is better than Jita in all the relevant aspects of market hubs: - safe (Citadels are not) - accessible (Citadels are not) - abundant and steady supplies (maybe but why now and not before?) - abundant and steady flow of buyers and sellers (unlikely unless the three above are fulfilled) - offers lowest buy and highest sell prices (taxes don't matter unless they are outrageous) CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now". 62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?" CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
Geronimo McVain Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 15	Posted - 2016.03.17 14:49:52 - [18] - Quote Why should anyone move to a citadel? The corp that runs a Jita replacement will make tons of Isk so someone will either destroy it or have a new one with lower taxes. In the end the tax will be a 0. Even 0.05% will earn the Company massive amount of money if you look at the trade in Jita. Traders want low taxes but they even more want safety. You can calculate with 5% taxes but not with a blown up Station. A Station that will be a rival to Jita needs to be run by someone everyone trusts. I can't see anyone/anycorp fullfilling this requirement.
Memphis Baas 1350	Posted - 2016.03.17 14:51:12 - [19] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: They are forgetting that it was players who built a marketplace in Jita. And those players won't be going anyhwere unless it is better than Jita in all the relevant aspects of market hubs: Or CCP can remove all NPC stations. We'll only shoot monuments if it's a sudden change. It will be a non-event if they allow plenty of time and work it slowly so that we fill up the space with citadels (which we will), and they slowly add the current NPC-only capabilities such as agents, skillbooks, insurance, etc. (in a way where we have to pay bribes or fees for the privilege). And they slowly hike up the taxes towards 100%. Then once the NPC stations are gone, they can change the sec rating of solar systems to be dynamic. So the blue donut becomes highsec, for all intents and purposes, and the crowded area in the middle becomes the warzone. It's a crazy tinfoil hat theory; you can flame me if you want, but there's no way that CCP hasn't thought of all these concerns with citadels that we're mentioning, and doesn't have a plan for the citadels and for the game. A grand plan.
Indahmawar Fazmarai 4928	Posted - 2016.03.17 14:55:55 - [20] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: They are forgetting that it was players who built a marketplace in Jita. And those players won't be going anyhwere unless it is better than Jita in all the relevant aspects of market hubs: Or CCP can remove all NPC stations. We'll only shoot monuments if it's a sudden change. It will be a non-event if they allow plenty of time and work it slowly so that we fill up the space with citadels (which we will), and they slowly add the current NPC-only capabilities such as agents, skillbooks, insurance, etc. (in a way where we have to pay bribes or fees for the privilege). Then they can change the sec rating of solar systems to be dynamic. So the blue donut becomes highsec, for all intents and purposes, and the crowded area in the middle becomes the warzone. It's a crazy tinfoil hat theory; you can flame me if you want, but there's no way that CCP hasn't thought of all these concerns with citadels that we're mentioning, and doesn't have a plan for the citadels and for the game. A grand plan. People are known to being wrong each now and then. CCP can be 100% convinced of something and yet be horribly wrong. CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now". 62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?" CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"

morion Lighting Build 71	Posted - 2016.03.17 15:04:04 - [21] - Quote The hypothetical 99.99% citadel sales tax station owner fills your multi jump buy order with there goods. And if you resell it to anyone including there buy order they get 99.99% there Isk back. + the goods they trap you with.
Do Little Virgin Plc Evictus. 273	Posted - 2016.03.17 15:09:17 - [22] - Quote I do business in one of the smaller trade hubs and have noticed that the only competition that matters is other people in the same station. Even if the product is 15%-20% cheaper at another station in the same system - it doesn't seem to matter- my stuff still sells. Players are willing to pay quite a bit for the convenience of one-stop-shopping and it will be quite a while before citadels can offer that. In null, I don't see that citadels offer much advantage compared to outposts, at least for traders. There may be advantages for owners.
SurrenderMonkey Space Llama Industries 2212	Posted - 2016.03.17 15:10:34 - [23] - Quote Zappity wrote: Yeah this is a pretty big drawback with citadels. They certainly won't turn into trade hubs until courier contracts are working. Same for staging with exchange contracts on fitted ships. But CCP has a good history with revisiting features in subsequent patches. Right? Oh, wait. Don't worry about it. They'll just beat you with the tax-stick until you decide to use the qualitatively worse option that they want you to use. Quote: I do business in one of the smaller trade hubs and have noticed that the only competition that matters is other people in the same station. Even if the product is 15%-20% cheaper at another station in the same system - it doesn't seem to matter- my stuff still sells. Players are willing to pay quite a bit for the convenience of one-stop-shopping and it will be quite a while before citadels can offer that. Pretty much. If I can't buy every-*******-thing that I need right now in the station I'm at, then I may as well just go to 4-4 or Amarr, where they will be cheaper anyway. "Help, I'm bored with missions!" http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7352	Posted - 2016.03.17 16:22:29 - [24] - Quote I have hope Citadels will be like DS9. Put in all teh stuff! Bring back DEEEEP Space!
morion Lighting Build 71	Posted - 2016.03.17 16:34:50 - [25] - Quote Another point a trader pays a broker fee to this private citadel owner listing STUFF for sale. Say the citadel is destroyed wile STUFF is for sale. Will the citadel owner be responsible for reimbursement of that traders payed broker fee? Failing to keep his trade location alive during the duration of a sale. The trader now has to relist it and pay a broker fee again. Who takes that responsibility?
Starrakatt Run and Gun Mercenary Corps FETID 393	Posted - 2016.03.17 19:36:25 - [26] - Quote I envision the next Goonies Burn Jita event. Except it won't be Burn Jita, but Burn Citadels All Over The Place. I expect it would be hilarious. Sneaky bastard.
alindak Kahoudi Viziam Amarr Empire 10	Posted - 2016.03.17 20:14:09 - [27] - Quote meh... bigger POS that can park titans. NOTHING will replace Trade Hubs.
DaReaper Net 7 2810	Posted - 2016.03.17 20:28:56 - [28] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: Without the ability to have replacement ships fitted and up on contracts, I don't see many alliances using these as staging points. or they use the corp hangers untill implemented. you do realize that alot of alliances used pos before outpost right? OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining! Yes i am optimistic about eve.. i'm giving it till dec 31st 2016 before i doom n gloom


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