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James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.11 11:05:00 - [1] There's no official way to kill Titan's or Motherships that CCP is really willing to give us. I don't even think they've thought about it, and there's the uncomfortable fact that all the tricks you could use (bumping the hell out of it) could probably be petitioned for reimbursement. So, do we need some kind of Titan killer? A single shot weapon, costing in maybe the 5 - 10 billion ISK price range that does something to give you a shot at killing a Titan. Now, obviously it can't just be a really big gun since a Titan is a massive construction investment and that would be lame. Potentially, it should be some type of jump/warp scrambler, since that's the issue most people have - giving you a limited (5, 10 minute?) window in which the Titan is prevented from being able to escape. Combine this with a vast expense for a consumable weapon, and make deployment...tricky, and you might just have a balanced module that can be used to outmanoeuver an unwary pilot of one of these behemoths and render him vulnerable.
Audeamus Fatal's Marauders Fatal Persuasion	Posted - 2007.02.11 11:31:00 - [2] All you need to do is nos it. It is not easy, but for such an expensive ship I doubt it is meant to be.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.11 11:37:00 - [3] Correction: You need to hit it with neutralizers within about 5 seconds, coming off at least 7 fully loaded out Apoc's just to counter it's cap recharge. And that doesn't stop it warping. All I'm saying is, if there was some weapon you could deploy - at great expense - that would do something even as simple as preventing it from jumping for a time, then there'd be a decent - but still logistically nightmarish - counter to the un-EW'able capships.
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2007.02.11 11:41:00 - [4] Maybe its time to make some subsystems targetable and destroyable, at least at capital ships. BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Audeamus Fatal's Marauders Fatal Persuasion	Posted - 2007.02.11 11:42:00 - [5] Nos/Neut, same difference (Neuts may be hard to sustain) Originally by: James Duar that doesn't stop it warping Nos won't, but a dictor bubble will, so dictor + nos then (I do see your point though, and who knows, we might see a capital warp/jump scrambler one day. Maybe only mountable on titans.)
Lakotnik The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.11 14:11:00 - [6] Hehe what if pilot logs? Then ship will do emergency warp and you cant stop this cept by bumping. I agree that we should have some item that gives a chance of destroying ship regularly. And if CCP reimburse ship cause it was killed with bumping its something lamest they could do, as it is the only way of killing right now. -- Smile, tomorrow will be worse.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.02.11 14:25:00 - [7] Originally by: Lakotnik Hehe what if pilot logs? That's how ASCN's one got killed. //Maya
Lakotnik The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.11 14:30:00 - [8] Ummm that was dumb mistake yea. But what if pilot logs just for long enough to warp. Then logs back in, and immediately out again. When he logs in, he ll end 1m KM off the location he was be4 logging started. Then he needs just to keep warping between SSs till he has enough cap to jump or till aggro drops. I know this works that way as its common procedure to evade gatecamps. Not that i ever used it tho. -- Smile, tomorrow will be worse.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.02.11 15:37:00 - [9] That's part of the logoffski issue which needs fixing... //Maya
Lagar Caldari Core Domination	Posted - 2007.02.11 18:21:00 - [10] if you want to destroy an titan i have to tell you this.. the only way is to attack with a fleet of capital ships.. no other way to beat one.. and probebly never will be for some time.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Solid Industries Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.11 19:56:00 - [11] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 11/02/2007 20:00:04 Originally by: Lagar if you want to destroy an titan i have to tell you this.. the only way is to attack with a fleet of capital ships.. no other way to beat one.. and probebly never will be for some time. Well, at least that's how it should be. I totally dislike everything that goes along the lines of disabling a Titan first, so you can safely shoot it down. That's not exciting at all, and I guess not the way they were meant to be used or fought, as their immunity to EW hints at. Dozens of battleships and dreads shooting at the behemoth and it shooting back, that's more like it. A real epic battle like everyone, hopefully, imagines. Sucking it dry, then dismantle it.. ah well, yeah great you ganked a titan shrug EVE needs more close and thrilling fights and less all or nothing situations. ___________________________________ _/_/ Game balance isn't just a luxury \_\_
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.12 13:38:00 - [12] Increasingly I'm thinking what we need is just some weapon which makes the thing jump incapable for 3-5 minutes.
Kittamaru Gallente TARDZ Gods of Night and Day	Posted - 2007.02.12 13:46:00 - [13] I know! [sarcasm] New Module Time! EMP Burst o Dewm Disables all ship systems and removes you from your pod, putting you into a HEV suit. You get to go fisticuffs with your enemies now! All ships in 5 AU suffer the effect of this weapon. [/sarcasm] dudes... the titan... it's a farking TITAN. You wanna kill it like it's a battleship or sommat? Go play CS ffs...
ITTigerClawIK Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.12 15:39:00 - [14] Ever think people that there was a REASON Titans are so hard to build and so rare and Expensive.... Wellt hats couse they are the 1 ultimate war machine... whats the point in building something that you could jsut easily take down... i think the toughness and resiliance comes at the right price... dont you? Sig (partially) nerfed. Only one image allowed, and that one image has to be under 400x120, and below 24,000 bytes. -Conuion Meow ([email protected])
Tarron Sarek Gallente Solid Industries Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.12 17:54:00 - [15] Well.. at least for me "toughness and resiliance" doesn't equal 'immunity'. It should be hard to take down a titan - very hard. But it shouldn't depend on a all-or-nothing situation, which means it shouldn't depend on one thing only - does it get away in time or not. First, a titan should be able to absorb a huge amount of firepower. But it shouldn't be able to repair all too fast, so you can take it down in several consecutive battles, if you're tenacious enough. Second, a titan should be able to fight back, not only with his doomsday device. Third, all speculation and discussion should have in mind a fleet around the titan. Somehow I got the impression that at the moment titans are just enormous dic.. erm I mean one shot wonders which are hard to catch. That's a bit sad. It should be more than a fire-and-bunk mobile DD. ___________________________________ _/_/ Game balance isn't just a luxury \_\_
Delwin Amber	Posted - 2007.02.12 20:38:00 - [16] Edited by: Delwin Amber on 12/02/2007 20:35:18 Right now Titans are exactly what they should be - the ultimate Supercapital ship of the game. There are only a small handful of them in space and they were a massive investment to create. They're also 99.9% impossible to kill - and that raises to 100% if the pilot isn't brain dead and/or not logged in at all. That's fine... but what happens when one Alliance or group of Alliances (we'll call them Factions) has six of these things? Now they can defend each other working in pairs or trips and add a Mothership or three to the mix and nothing in the game can kill them at all without resorting to tactics that will get them reimbursed. That is the problem - even another identical fleet can't kill them at that point. My vote is for Capital Nos/Neuts as well as a Capital module that puts out an Interdict Field that prevents not only warping but jumping as well (and like a dictor bubble the MS/Titans are not immune). Then a decent fleet of other Capital ships has a chance at killing one of these... but only a decent shot not a sure thing.
RogueWing GIT-R-DUN Southern Connection	Posted - 2007.02.12 20:49:00 - [17] Large Bubbles would work fairly well to trap one. But a Titan is not going to warp to a spot without a cov-ops ahead of him..... [G-R-D].....we've buried 50 kittens up to their necks in the yard......join us or we get out the lawn mower.
Mister Driller	Posted - 2007.02.12 21:22:00 - [18] Originally by: Aki Yamato Maybe its time to make some subsystems targetable and destroyable, at least at capital ships. This is probably the best way to do it. You want to take out the DD? Shoot at it. You want to take out the warp drive? Shoot at that. For this to really work though, they'd have to make them more difficult to repair too. I mean, it takes an hour to reload the DD, it should take longer to fix one right?
Ralus eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.13 00:12:00 - [19] what you need is a single proton torpedo, the force and a small thermal exhaust port thats only 1 metre wide
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.13 02:17:00 - [20] Edited by: James Duar on 13/02/2007 02:17:17 Deleted because I'm just replying to flamebait.
Nim9i5	Posted - 2007.02.13 02:33:00 - [21] The only reason the titan is hard to kill, is because he does not have to fight. Why does he need to fight he can just run. A real war two parties are fighting to protect something, like their outpost etc. SInce outposts and land are so undervalued compared to ships, fights are more about killing ships than completing an objective. Since when do people fight wars to kill the army, they fight to win.
Effei Gloom Minmatar eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.13 02:37:00 - [22] Edited by: Effei Gloom on 13/02/2007 02:34:27 1.nos it 2.bump it 3.have a cynofield ready for dreads/carriers to jump in 4.(good choice is a cyno for (friendly titan jump portal) so full fleet can attack the titan asap) and if you like dictor bubble it and you should have some scan probes ready if he loggs (with active aggro timer) you can scann it faster then it is able to recharge cap or turn/get speed for warp Titan damage output is a joke, you dont have to worry about it.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.13 02:38:00 - [23] Originally by: Nim9i5 The only reason the titan is hard to kill, is because he does not have to fight. Why does he need to fight he can just run. A real war two parties are fighting to protect something, like their outpost etc. SInce outposts and land are so undervalued compared to ships, fights are more about killing ships than completing an objective. Since when do people fight wars to kill the army, they fight to win. Exactly the problem. The Titan never has to commit to a battle, or even depend on any particularly great level of intelligence to avoid a battle it might be endangered by. The big example being, warping onto an enemy dread fleet, doomsdaying and then cyno'ing out. There should be something that you can do, that makes that action dangerous in a way which isn't almost an exploit. Even if the Titan had 1000 warp core strength and we'd need battleships with nothing but scrams and disrupters to lock it down, this would add some element of risk to it's usage because there's some tangible way in which it could get into trouble.
Effei Gloom Minmatar eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.13 02:40:00 - [24] Originally by: James Duar Originally by: Nim9i5 The only reason the titan is hard to kill, is because he does not have to fight. Why does he need to fight he can just run. A real war two parties are fighting to protect something, like their outpost etc. SInce outposts and land are so undervalued compared to ships, fights are more about killing ships than completing an objective. Since when do people fight wars to kill the army, they fight to win. Exactly the problem. The Titan never has to commit to a battle, or even depend on any particularly great level of intelligence to avoid a battle it might be endangered by. The big example being, warping onto an enemy dread fleet, doomsdaying and then cyno'ing out. There should be something that you can do, that makes that action dangerous in a way which isn't almost an exploit. Even if the Titan had 1000 warp core strength and we'd need battleships with nothing but scrams and disrupters to lock it down, this would add some element of risk to it's usage because there's some tangible way in which it could get into trouble. Why should a titan dd a Dreadfleet? and he could do that remotely no need to warp in.
Reggie Stoneloader eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.13 02:54:00 - [25] Originally by: James Duar Originally by: Nim9i5 The only reason the titan is hard to kill, is because he does not have to fight. ... Exactly the problem. [More good sense] I'm on board with this line of thinking. I think the mere fact that T2 ships, battleships and capital ships are the most valuable and worthwhile property in the game is what's breaking EvE at the highest levels. I'll go ahead and nerd this up with a LotR reference, a little Faramir from The Two Towers: "I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory; I love only that which they defend." The combat in EvE isn't good for anything. Every once in a while there will be a fight like the BoB war in Feythabolis or the one we've got on now with the F4T4L guys, where there really is a vested interest in a location, and people are willing to fight battles even when there's a good chance they'll have a poor K/D ratio or might lose their T2 fitted battleship, because the objective is something other than killboard stats or bragging rights. These times are few and far between, in my experience, because it's so unlikely for EvE players to be invested in an area. POSes are a dime a dozen, and the hassle of their upkeep contributed to AXE's change of playstyle. Nobody but a newb corp with one small tower will fight to the death for a POS. An active capital array is worth defending, but only because it's building a capital ship, so it's not worth losing cap ships to defend a cap ship embryo. Simply put, the most valuable thing in EvE is a weapon. We need something worth defending that isn't a weapon, so that the weapons can be used and used up to defend it. Some kind of industrial or scientific installation that would be worth the loss of a Titan or three to keep. I don't have a solution or anything, I'm just whining in harmony with others about the problem.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Solid Industries Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.13 08:11:00 - [26] There is no upkeep, no maintenance. Alliances don't hold as much space as they can afford or need, they hold as much as they can. Therefore, a number of systems is always expendable and the single system is of no great importance. ___________________________________ _/_/ Game balance isn't just a luxury \_\_
Hulkmaster ProductionAlt Bart's House of Brats	Posted - 2007.02.13 09:30:00 - [27] All you people suggesting bubbles are proper idiots. First off, capital ships can cyno out of bubbles. Second off, every titan and mothership pilot in the game fits officer smartbombs, which allow them to destroy bubbles.
Auron Shadowbane	Posted - 2007.02.13 10:16:00 - [28] It's true: Titans (and capitals in general) are broken. Why? Cause their damage is patethic in comparison to their tanking. I dont know why they made it that way but it is what kills the possibility for counters. ATM a Titan can do doomsday and maybe jump bridge but thats it. Therefore it can be classified as a SUPPORT vessel. In every game out there support vessels are mostly agile compared to their hitpoints so they can evade fights and only a bit in top of prices. Now we have tha titan which costs 60bil which is about 20 dreads, 30 carriers, 120 t2 BS, 600 insured t1 bs. Yay, thats not the cost for a usual support vessel. It isnt even the cost of the few 100k hitpoints. About 75-50% of its price can only be justificated by its ew immunity. The only thing I could see is a specialized tier5 bs which can use a "capital disabling array". The ship itself would cost about 1bil in materials and be a step weaker than a tier1 bs. The array itself would function like a capacitor booster which uses charges to scramble the titan/mothers warp drive (trough its ew imunity). charges would last for 1-5min (skill&balance). The effect should stop the instant the scrambling ship is killed. the launcher itself should cost another 1bil to build and each charge should cost 10bil to produce. bpos should all come to about 5-10times the production price of the items. Sounds expensive, ehh? Well Titans and Motherships are expensive. If you execute your mission well you can kill a Mothership with 10bil investment and a titan with 22bil (assuming he kills of the first ship with his dd, WHICH a bs CAN tank if fitted right!)
Noveron Caldari Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2007.02.13 13:04:00 - [29] Edited by: Noveron on 13/02/2007 13:02:19 I think it would all be different if it could only be scrambled. In any case I agree with the comments here, such a ship should be able to do huge damage outputs and not only the doomsday weapon. When I first heard about the Titan I imagined a huge ship (it is) which would be the flagship and main unit in a whole fleet.. that is.. in the middle of the fight.. with the rest of ships.. fighting the enemy.. shooting around, harder than any other ship. Like galactica surrounded with its vipers, like the Concordia (wing commander II), etc. In eve.. the titan is a like a stealth bomber.. appear.. shoots.. dissapear. Something does not mix. But this is just my opinion. ---
Hell's Fury Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.02.13 15:30:00 - [30] There is a counter; it is called 100 dreadnaughts firing.

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