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FileCop AI
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Posted - 2003.12.13 13:17:00 -
[1]
Now, why was crystals nerfed? Yes, lasers do more damage, but in return they use A LOT of powergrid and a LOT of cap. The other weapons doesn't use as much grid and projectiles use NO cap.
So why should lasers then do the same amount of damage as projectiles? They shouldn't. Lasers should be (far) superior in damage as they use a good bunch of cap. Take a tempest vs apoc. The apoc will for instance fire up 8 laser turrets. Depending on how it fits with a shield booster running, it won't last more than about 40-60 seconds tops. Now take the tempest. It will fire all it's weapons and launchers using 0 cap. Instead they can use all their cap to boost the shield. So if the two ships deal the same amount of damage, the apoc will run out of cap and the tempest will just keep firing.
Now I haven't flown a tempest and I haven't tested it on chaos, so I might be totally wrong. Please tell me if I am. But from my point of view, nerfing lasers FURTHER was a very stupid idea.
FileCop AI of MASS
Co-CEO |
Valeria
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Posted - 2003.12.13 13:51:00 -
[2]
We'll see. I strongly doubt we'll be seeing Projectiles on Apocalypses in a near future. Especially considering Armaggedon/Apocalypse got a cap-recharge boost.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Alkanine
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Posted - 2003.12.13 14:24:00 -
[3]
Over time A tempest loses its ability to shoot at all. While your lasers come form energy we cant do jack without bullets =P
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Kozak
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Posted - 2003.12.13 15:03:00 -
[4]
But, ammo has been lowered in volume on Chaos. You can carry a lot more now. An apoc will run out of cap way sooner then you run out of ammo.
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StealthNet
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Posted - 2003.12.13 15:22:00 -
[5]
 Quote:
But, ammo has been lowered in volume on Chaos. You can carry a lot more now. An apoc will run out of cap way sooner then you run out of ammo.
*maybe*.
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Stoop
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Posted - 2003.12.14 01:07:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Stoop on 14/12/2003 01:27:51
Edited by: Stoop on 14/12/2003 01:22:03
what I am failing to see is why do you use a setup that drains your cap in 40-60 seconds anyhow? How will you EVER kill any battleship that fast solo?
Train your skills, get some cap relays, do something. You are an idiot if you use 8 lasers and kill your cap before you can even get well into the armor. (use 2 launcher points, which will use 0 cap?)
And what ever happend to compromise? Can you run all the guns you want forever on a Maller? No.. you did something to fix it then. DO you have the powergrid to fit 8 tachs? No, so what do you do? compromise, you either fit less of what you want, or you fit the right modules so that you can fit them. Your lasers uses too much energy? Use another laser. Im not sure about you, but W/O the nice bonuses that an apoc gets (I fly a megathron), I can run 3 tachs forever and a day. I havent tryed 4 because I can not fit them (check it yo, comprimise). Thats with 4 cap relays. I could use 7 cap relays. Surely with your 20% less cap usage, and 20% faster cap relay from the ship, AND 7 relays you can run your lasers for a good long time. Wanna use dmg mods? well do you wanna use them for more dmg, or do you wanna keep your rechage times really low? Hm, gotta make that decision.
Now, take 425 rails. Even tho you can run as many as you want for as long as you want pretty easily, you couldnt take a damend sheild tank'd scorps sheilds out PERIOD. They crit at like 300 dmg. You could use lots of dmg mods because you dont needa use a ton of cap relays, but DOH, dmg mods dont stack well anymore. Cap relays do.
Back on topic. They arent being nerfed, they are being adjusted to be equal to other types of ammo in an attempt to BALANCE the game. If you wanna pwn everyone, go play counterstrike with an aimbot.
Oh, and if you care about the games design etc, the mimnitar ships were designed specifically to kill amarr ones. Sorry your ship != > all.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.12.14 01:38:00 -
[7]
Quote:
But, ammo has been lowered in volume on Chaos. You can carry a lot more now. An apoc will run out of cap way sooner then you run out of ammo.
And cap recharges have been enhanced. I don't mean cap power relays, but the cap batteries. Takes a few 800cap ones with you and they will very likely save your day.
free speech not allowed here |
Kaylon Syi
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Posted - 2003.12.14 04:51:00 -
[8]
Quote:
But, ammo has been lowered in volume on Chaos. You can carry a lot more now. An apoc will run out of cap way sooner then you run out of ammo.
I agree...
Personally have Amarr and Minm BS skills. Had a Tempest but traded it in so I could Use Tachs and Beams NPC hunting... now I am going back to Tempest to NPC hunt ( only stopped cause of ammo ) but this should be fixed.
As well... going to 0.0 will be harder after the patch so rigging your ship for NPC hunting like amarr ships usually are... will be prime candidates for getting ganked in transit.
Tempest is too flexible... typhoon as well for that matter.. so you can atleast setup for PvP and NPC hunting.
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Halo Jones
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Posted - 2003.12.14 09:32:00 -
[9]
launchers got nerfed by a full 25%, so the crystals got off lightly ;)
Oberon Incorporated. |
FileCop AI
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Posted - 2003.12.14 09:33:00 -
[10]
Stoop, I can fire 8 laser weapons forever - that's not the problem. And I can kill a ship in 30 seconds, that's not the problem either. The problem is if you run a shield booster at the same time, and the problem is damage on the lasers was nerfed, so it will be much harder to kill using lasers than it was before. Guess we'll see tomorrow, but there's a good chance lasers wil be almost as useless as hybrids are now.
FileCop AI of MASS
Co-CEO |
Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.12.14 09:39:00 -
[11]
Quote:
Stoop, I can fire 8 laser weapons forever - that's not the problem. And I can kill a ship in 30 seconds, that's not the problem either. The problem is if you run a shield booster at the same time, and the problem is damage on the lasers was nerfed, so it will be much harder to kill using lasers than it was before. Guess we'll see tomorrow, but there's a good chance lasers wil be almost as useless as hybrids are now.
Erm, yes, then come kill me in 30 seconds, we'll see if your cap is good enough. 
Please tell me that was sarcasm.
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Stoop
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Posted - 2003.12.14 17:47:00 -
[12]
Once again, its an option of comprimise... Do you want to be purely offensive and run your lasers forever? Or do you want to be able to boost your sheilds some. And if all weapons are equally as worthless, then they are all equally as good, which is the goal here.
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Katia Rast
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Posted - 2003.12.15 05:34:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Katia Rast on 15/12/2003 05:35:30
Since when do you have to use a sheild booster to win a PvP battle??
i have won a couple of fights without having any sheild devices in my med slots,,
there is alot more to defence than just a beefy shield you know 
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dalman
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Posted - 2003.12.15 05:48:00 -
[14]
Quote:
Edited by: Katia Rast on 15/12/2003 05:35:30
Since when do you have to use a sheild booster to win a PvP battle??
i have won a couple of fights without having any sheild devices in my med slots,,
there is alot more to defence than just a beefy shield you know
I think the thread is about winning a PlayerVsPlayer fight, not a PlayerVsN00b fight.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.12.15 06:07:00 -
[15]
"Stoop, I can fire 8 laser weapons forever - that's not the problem. And I can kill a ship in 30 seconds, that's not the problem either. The problem is if you run a shield booster at the same time, and the problem is damage on the lasers was nerfed, so it will be much harder to kill using lasers than it was before. Guess we'll see tomorrow, but there's a good chance lasers wil be almost as useless as hybrids are now."
Gee; so, not sure if i get you... because it will now take you some longer time than 30 seconds to kill another ship, that's a problem? And not being able to do that anymore is going to make lasers useless? Praytell, as opposed to what?
Sorry, but 30 seconds is the time it takes missiles to even start hitting target at long range... The complaint you can't anymore kill another ship in this time while running shield booster and whatnot... would be pretty humourous, if i wasn't fairly sure you actually mean that... --;;
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FileCop AI
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Posted - 2003.12.15 08:08:00 -
[16]
30 seconds is to kill the "easiest" targets. Like an armageddon with an average pilot. If you meet a good pilot with a good setup it will take a lot longer to kill and it will be much harder - even if you don't use shield booster that much. What I'm saying is, the crystal nerf will make it much harder using lasers than using projectiles (or hybrids, but we'll have to wait and see how good they really become)
FileCop AI of MASS
Co-CEO |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.15 08:29:00 -
[17]
Quote:
30 seconds is to kill the "easiest" targets. Like an armageddon with an average pilot. If you meet a good pilot with a good setup it will take a lot longer to kill and it will be much harder - even if you don't use shield booster that much. What I'm saying is, the crystal nerf will make it much harder using lasers than using projectiles (or hybrids, but we'll have to wait and see how good they really become)
Quote:
Castor: Apocalypse, Armageddon and Megathron have been boosted in capacitor recharge rate.
Might help if I'm interpretting what your issue is correctly: that you don't have the cap to maintain fire with laser long enough to kill other ships + run defenses.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Fausto
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Posted - 2003.12.15 14:23:00 -
[18]
Hey people, lasers rocked. 4 modulated heavy beams could eat trough anything on both short and long range. It is sad but just what they did. Even after this nerf I still think they will be the best turret weapons.
______
<brainpodder> |
Agent Shield
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Posted - 2003.12.15 14:28:00 -
[19]
Quote:
Stoop, I can fire 8 laser weapons forever - that's not the problem. And I can kill a ship in 30 seconds, that's not the problem either. The problem is if you run a shield booster at the same time, and the problem is damage on the lasers was nerfed, so it will be much harder to kill using lasers than it was before. Guess we'll see tomorrow, but there's a good chance lasers wil be almost as useless as hybrids are now.
I thought I had pretty decent skills, but I can only fit 5 Tachs on my BS. I can run for a long time, but I doubt my skills can kill another battleship in only 30 seconds. Maybe little fellas, but not the big fellas. 
How did you get 8 to fit? Are you not using damage mods and instead running some module in the low slots that allow you to get the 8 Tachs on?
FYI, you may not need to run your shield booster continuously. I only activate mine when I see it get down a bit to say 70% or so. When it fills back up to 100%, I turn it back off.
Agent Shield |
Endorphin
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Posted - 2003.12.15 22:49:00 -
[20]
[QUOTE]Can you run all the guns you want forever on a Maller?[/QUOTE]
Yes I can..
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Stoop
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Posted - 2003.12.15 23:14:00 -
[21]
Quote:
[QUOTE]Can you run all the guns you want forever on a Maller?[/QUOTE]
Yes I can..
Great I would assuem you mean 5x heavy beams? Those are the beams I would want to run forever.
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Stoop
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Posted - 2003.12.15 23:22:00 -
[22]
I think it would be much easier to kill 'average player' in a scorpion, with a mwd on, and no sheild hardeners... than say an armogeddon (Given that lasers are much more effecitve on sheilds than armor and the armo has lots of armor and little sheilds.)
You know its okay for the weapons that you use to be toned down a bit to be more equal to other weapons. Its really sad to see people with an extra 20% increase on their hybrid damage use lasers (which their ship is not designed for) because lasers are so damned good.
Multi freq is gettig hit with 14.3% less dmg on JUST the thermal, EM stays the same. So roughly 7-8% (I cant remembe the exact stats)
Radios are getting nerfed by 25%, but they were grossly more powerful than the long range ammos.
So here you have a minor nerf, and a nice move towards balance. Sorry that it takes you longer to kill a battleship now, but you should be able to kill one about just as fast as anyone else, if not still a little faster. Where is the big huff? Do you want to power mow over everyone?
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hellwarrior
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Posted - 2003.12.15 23:26:00 -
[23]
Quote:
I think it would be much easier to kill 'average player' in a scorpion, with a mwd on, and no sheild hardeners... than say an armogeddon (Given that lasers are much more effecitve on sheilds than armor and the armo has lots of armor and little sheilds.)
I dno about your armageddon, but i get 20%+ shield, 25%+armor, 20%+ hull. Also I can run an XLshield booster for a long time with my tachs going. I would be impressed if any pilot in the game could deal out 15k damage in 30seconds. With 80shield/s getting added on. Especially if the arma has 1600mm's, and is using hardeners.
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Stoop
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Posted - 2003.12.15 23:51:00 -
[24]
Im not sure why you quoted me.. but thats exactly what I was saying.
On top of this, the amarrians cryed and squelled like stuck pigs the last time lasers were changed.. Why where they changed then? Because they were clearly better than all other weapons. Why are they being changed now? Because they are clearly better than all other weapons.
Some people have a hard time coming to grasps with the game as a whole, and mearly whine when their niche is being changed.
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Babar
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Posted - 2003.12.16 00:07:00 -
[25]
Quote:
On top of this, the amarrians cryed and squelled like stuck pigs the last time lasers were changed.. Why where they changed then? Because they were clearly better than all other weapons. Why are they being changed now? Because they are clearly better than all other weapons.
Until you factor in ship bonuses.
But hey! - Death to the lowlife Amarr scum!
Who gives a rat's ass about balancing?! ;D
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Reiisha
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Posted - 2003.12.16 03:16:00 -
[26]
Ill just recap what Filcop was saying:
ahem:
"I want to have an uber config with which i cannot be destroyed"
Look. Lasers where too powerful. They were even used on the ships they werent meant for! And you say its bad they get nerfed a bit?
They dont use ammo. Other weapons do. Do i need to clarify this?
Yes they use more cap. So? You said yourself that you can keep firing indefinetly. If you want a shield booster runing, fit a launcher or 2. There are limits you know. Its exactly the reason why apocs are so good at using lasers (or arma's for that)
Lasers even get used on tempests/ravens/scoprs, the ships with the lowest cap recycle. I think that vouches for the fat that lasers might even NOT be using enough cap.
I could go on, but youre so intelligent.... You can figure the rest out by yourself i hope.
Gamersland.nl, DE site voor PC gaming! |
Aerfen
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Posted - 2003.12.16 12:22:00 -
[27]
I agree that crystals should be nerfed, but only for non amarr races. Considering that amarr ships are supposed to be the heavy hitters doesn't it stand to reason that they should have the nastiest guns. Mind you ccp can'r seem to make there mind up on the back story v balance thing otherwise gally ships would be the ew kings. I have always thought it would make more sense to have each race have their prime weapon do major damage on their own ships but be nerfed for other races weapons. That way we would see caldari using mainly rails and missiles, Gally using blasters and ew(they should also be second only to min for speed to use em effectivley), ammar lasers and min projectiles. At the mo it just seems to be tachs for all with whatever else can be fitted with the pg left and I can't see much change to that after the patch
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darth solo
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Posted - 2003.12.16 12:34:00 -
[28]
Quote:
Quote:
Stoop, I can fire 8 laser weapons forever - that's not the problem. And I can kill a ship in 30 seconds, that's not the problem either. The problem is if you run a shield booster at the same time, and the problem is damage on the lasers was nerfed, so it will be much harder to kill using lasers than it was before. Guess we'll see tomorrow, but there's a good chance lasers wil be almost as useless as hybrids are now.
Erm, yes, then come kill me in 30 seconds, we'll see if your cap is good enough.
Please tell me that was sarcasm.
the ship in question was a ibis.
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Nerhtal Al'Thali
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Posted - 2003.12.16 13:43:00 -
[29]
only one thing about lasers annoyed me.
Radio Crystals clear advantage at long range over the "long range" equivelant ammo's on Charges and Proj Ammo.
that was all. at close range i thought MF/AM/EMP was balanced enough not to be too bothered about it.
"Game Experience And Dev Opinions May Change With The Time Of Day During Online Play"
Oveur
"First in, last out"
Bridgeburner Motto |
Balack
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Posted - 2003.12.16 15:02:00 -
[30]
Whats the problem, all the AMMO types should be equal. They weren't, now they are!!
Lasers had an unfiar advantage before and now its been removed.
The only tradeoffs should be based on the actual guns not the ammo.
Balack
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