I do agree that's a problem with incursions, across the board, all locations, not just hisec or nullsec. I just think we should be able to risk another type of ship.

The fact that incursions are far too risk free with their high reward is a whole different question. I've got suggestions for that, but I'm trying to stay on-topic.

I think it's entirely relevant here. It's an organic system - nothing is truly 100% independent. It's not what this change will do by itself, it's what this change will do to make incursions more EvE like overall. Like, the only reason I am even a little for this proposed change is because it will (or could) shift the incursion emphasis a little more towards null and low, whereas now its dominated by highsec.

Ever since CCP buffed the fleet size for low/null there has been a basically full time Low Sec incursion fleet taking advantage of the over 200% payout for the fleet relative to Highsec. There is no reason the various Null groups couldn't also be doing the same when incursions land in their area of space. Most of them just chose not to.

I think it's entirely relevant here. It's an organic system - nothing is truly 100% independent. It's not what this change will do by itself, it's what this change will do to make incursions more EvE like overall. Like, the only reason I am even a little for this proposed change is because it will (or could) shift the incursion emphasis a little more towards null and low, whereas now its dominated by highsec.

While I am amazed by thinking about all the site strategies you can come up with by using HAW Dreads, I am also afraid about the risk vs reward equation.

For people not being the local superpower, using a capital incursion fleet is just straight suicide. For people that are the local superpower, its probably printing isk with almost no risk.

Of course incursions spawn randomly, so no one gets to permagrind them. But then you have empires like the old CFC space, which basically guaranteed you having an incursion somewhere in your space all the time.

I'm an null sec incursion FC for my alliance, for those that are unaware null sec incursions allow 50% more people on grid and payout about 20% more, however most of that extra payout is negated through null sec taxes.
.....
As mentioned above and I do not wish to divulge my crafting in such a public space but dreads and carriers will improve site times slightly when they are around, if they are allowed doesn't mean it'll always be the case that they will there running.

It seems like many guys here didn't understand the mechanics in an incursion site.

There is no need of logis at all if you run a full fleet of carrirers.
Just give everybody a bit of a local tank and you're fine. The NPC's switch the target ages before you die with the massive EHP of capital ships. The numbers of EHP after the citadel release is another thing to consider but even if they get nerfed it's not mentionable.
A full TCRC has around 20k DPS. With a 5k DPS tank you live long enough until the targets are switching. After that you are repping up again, done.

If the current incursion mechanics are used you yolo in with carriers and you can run sites times that are currently only possible within a contest.
With the incoming capital MWD's even the TPPH isn't a real problem.
Dreads are not worth fielding becasue any site will end before one siege cycle will end.

The only disadvantage will be the warp speed.
considering the bigger fleets in low/ nullsec and the higher payout you'll earn alot of money.


so i think using capitals with the current mechanics will break the system more or less. if there are special sites for capitals it woould be more intersting because current sansha rats can't harm a well fitted carrier in a fleet.

Today an incursions ships in highsec costs 3 to 4b. an insured carrier could do it better with less money, seems a little bit broken then if the can fly the same sites. and as stated it's insured. if you loose it, take the next one ;-)

CCP is getting rid of the remote-rep carriers, so you'll need dedicated FAX logi. But I think their tank will hold through a triage cycle. You can local rep a ton in triage. Like any triage, the question is about cap. I'm wondering if we'll get the otunis and deltoles down fast enough to not die terribly. An Otuni neut could kill a sieged/triaged cap.

How could you get stupidly fast site times in a carrier? You can't use sentries post-patch, so you still have travel time for the drones?
The capital MWDs will get you up to about 1k/sec not as fast as a battleship, but fast enough to do the site in a reasonable time.
Yes, you'll earn a lot of money, but how does that compare to the 23/7 isk you can earn from hisec. You should be able to earn more money in low then null, then sitting there safely in hisec.

I don't see how it'll break the system. Currently incursion rats can't harm a well fitted incursion BS either. The only reason you die is if you don't broadcast. You'll die in your carrier if you don't broadcast as well, your window for broadcasting will be larger, but same rules apply.

What? your thoughts are to genius to publish them here? oh please bring your holy ingeniousness to us, we will pray for you every day!

There is no need of logis at all if you run a full fleet of carrirers.

The only disadvantage will be the warp speed.

Please don't misquote what I say. That was a reply to myself to the question "Will capital ships make a huge impact on how incursions are being ran?" Tactics and strategy is what I do, this place is for feedback not for s*** posting. I gave an overall effect on such tactics.


With any experience in incursions with the new mechanics to carriers you'll realize how terrible this would be.


Again this is incorrect. Dreads core damage come from being in siege which for you information that would disallow remote assistance. So getting shield and cap would solely come from that pilot, with the nerf coming with the refitting during combat there is no refitting to help the pilot unscrew his/her mistake. As per my last post I explained high threat targets already on field that could do some very serious damage to a triage / siege pilot.

There are other obvious flaws that I wish to not make them as obvious as they are now.

I recommend that you try some private theory crafting to form your own informed feedback so it's unbiased.

My first thought after reading this was...

If you really want to go through with this, leave the current sites/mechanics etc alone. Instead, add a series of brand new sites that spawn in Incursions. You can lore this as Sansha finally getting a clue and adjusting tactics and developing new tech etc in response to advancing capsuleer tech and effectiveness combating him.

The new sites will be perfectly doable in subcaps. But the instant you bring a cap through that acceleration gate; a lot more Sansha BS rats spawn and they're perfectly geared towards taking out your capital without FAX logi being on the ball. The payout per pilot of this kind of Escalated Sansha site is therefore proportionally increased by CONCORD in both ISK and LP, to balance Risk/Reward. In addition, you could even have the capital site have a chance to spawn a Sansha Revenant (with appropriate loot) if you bring in enough caps into the site.

You could even make HS versions of the new sites that escalate in the presence of Marauders. (Seriously, that hull needs more use breathed into it other than as a super mission runner and gank target)

Hey folks. We've been talking to some incursion-focused players and the CSM about capital ships and lowsec/nullsec incursions, and we'd like to see what the rest of the community thinks. Thanks to Plaid Rabbit who initially brought up the idea to me and provided his well-reasoned arguments for the concept.

With the updates to capital ships coming in the Citadel expansion, it might add some valuable options to low/null incursions if we opened the gated sites up to capital ships. Our initial discussion has indicated that it probably wouldn't be all that overpowered to allow them, and that capitals in fact might not end up being used all that much but that at least opening up the option may allow for some creative experiments and potentially some cool new tactics.

We we're calling on all incursion runners for your feedback: do you think it would be a good idea to allow capital ships into lowsec and nullsec incursion sites after the Citadel expansion?

I'm very interested to hear what you guys and gals think. As always, I'm especially interested in the reasoning behind your opinions.
Thanks!

Any thoughts about getting into the drifter incursions? So far everyone had just mentioned the sansha incursions - but maybe this can be a chance to give options to run the harder drifter incursions in some ways/regions

Well we had drifter incursions burning throne worlds, but no one cared to do them.
Higsec incursion runners don't like the risk

It's not the risk it's the risk/reward. Drifter incursions are not worth it compared to normal low/null and even hi-sec incursions imo.

read again please. i mentioned LOCAL tank, not remote reps.

EFT says to me that an Archon currently has 80k capacitor. an outuni neut caps out around 3k and has a long cycle. what do 40 or more carries with some outunis? they die horribly. so even if the outuni(s) get out more than one cycle it's not a big deal for the cap of a carrier.

a vindicator can do 1.4 to 1.5k m/s. It has to travel nearly 100 km to shoot the tower in a TCRC. As a carrier you warp in and get the fighters on the tower. The fighters are faster than a vindicator and they have more DPS. nothing to add here.

In a TPPH the carriers are slower, yes but you can kill everything while traveling to the next gate. Currently incursion Battleships reach the gate long before the spawn is dead.

In a NRF it's the same loek the TCRC warp in and let the fighters move.

If you fly currently in a battleship the incursions can harm you of course. if you get full stage in some sites and you forget to broadcast for 5 seconds it will be very tough to save you. in some communities you are dead (no names here). in a carrier you problably have enough ehp to survive until the aggro is switching even without repping.