EVE Search - Sticky:[Feedback Request] Capital Ships in Incursions

Check My IP Information

All Channels

Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

Sticky:[Feedback Request] Capital Ships in Incursions

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 :: [one page]

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)

CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 14086	Posted - 2016.04.04 22:28:06 - [1] - Quote Hey folks. We've been talking to some incursion-focused players and the CSM about capital ships and lowsec/nullsec incursions, and we'd like to see what the rest of the community thinks. Thanks to Plaid Rabbit who initially brought up the idea to me and provided his well-reasoned arguments for the concept. With the updates to capital ships coming in the Citadel expansion, it might add some valuable options to low/null incursions if we opened the gated sites up to capital ships. Our initial discussion has indicated that it probably wouldn't be all that overpowered to allow them, and that capitals in fact might not end up being used all that much but that at least opening up the option may allow for some creative experiments and potentially some cool new tactics. We we're calling on all incursion runners for your feedback: do you think it would be a good idea to allow capital ships into lowsec and nullsec incursion sites after the Citadel expansion? I'm very interested to hear what you guys and gals think. As always, I'm especially interested in the reasoning behind your opinions. Thanks! Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/

Bluemelon ElitistOps Pandemic Legion 104	Posted - 2016.04.04 22:44:14 - [2] - Quote ok For all your 3rd party needs join my ingame channel Blue's 3rd Party! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=365230&find=unread
Aliventi Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 926	Posted - 2016.04.04 23:02:38 - [3] - Quote My biggest worry is the lack of risk vs. the reward. Essentially if things go south with a Subcap fleet lots of ships tend to die. I have a feeling that won't be the case with capitals running the sites. Especially since you can just sacrifice a ship and cyno everyone out. Are you going to make Dictor and Hictor Incursion NPCs? Sure, there are a few pointing ships in these sites, but I don't think enough to keep a super or a titan tackled/keep a sieged dread or a triaged FAX tackled. Can these sites kill a triaged FAX in a reasonable amount of time? If these sites can't kill a FAX quickly then low/nullsec incursions become virtually risk free. Can titan's DD the rats to death? I have a feeling the AoE DD will be quite popular with these fleets if it can insta-clear waves. Players will sit here and claim "I spent a ton of isk making this fleet therefore I deserve to have less risk." I agree with that. There is a fine line between less risk and risk-free. Ensure that this will be far from risk-free even with titans and supers and a mess of FAX on the field.
PopplerRo 22	Posted - 2016.04.04 23:08:51 - [4] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: ... Thanks to Plaid Rabbit who initially brought up the idea to me and provided his well-reasoned arguments for the concept... Out of curiosity what were those "well-reasoned" arguments? Imo it's not a good idea. As with all pve it'll be instantly min-maxed(Unless you add a hardcap to the number of capitals on grid), proved to be OP and then left untouched for far too long. Either overkill of dread/carriers on grid, or using FAX and then the possibilty for more damage ships to be on grid, assuming sites have a payout cap similar to the other incursions. It doesn't add anything dynamic to the sites from a gameplay pov, but that may change depending on how it was implemented.
Morwen Lagann Tyrathlion Interstellar 1669	Posted - 2016.04.04 23:19:28 - [5] - Quote PopplerRo wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: ... Thanks to Plaid Rabbit who initially brought up the idea to me and provided his well-reasoned arguments for the concept... Out of curiosity what were those "well-reasoned" arguments? Imo it's not a good idea. As with all pve it'll be instantly min-maxed(Unless you add a hardcap to the number of capitals on grid), proved to be OP and then left untouched for far too long. Either overkill of dread/carriers on grid, or using FAX and then the possibilty for more damage ships to be on grid, assuming sites have a payout cap similar to the other incursions. It doesn't add anything dynamic to the sites from a gameplay pov, but that may change depending on how it was implemented. You could make capitals count as multiple pilots in the payout calculations, but not actually increase the per-pilot payout for those flying them. So a carrier or dread in an HQ site might count as, say, 6 pilots in terms of the payout scale calculation, but the person flying it would still only get one pilot's worth of payout (45m ISK in low/null) instead of the number of pilots that hull is "worth" by the count (which would be 270m (456) ISK). Would that help? Morwen Lagann* CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium Owner, The Golden Masque
PopplerRo 22	Posted - 2016.04.04 23:25:32 - [6] - Quote Morwen Lagann wrote: PopplerRo wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: ... Thanks to Plaid Rabbit who initially brought up the idea to me and provided his well-reasoned arguments for the concept... Out of curiosity what were those "well-reasoned" arguments? Imo it's not a good idea. As with all pve it'll be instantly min-maxed(Unless you add a hardcap to the number of capitals on grid), proved to be OP and then left untouched for far too long. Either overkill of dread/carriers on grid, or using FAX and then the possibilty for more damage ships to be on grid, assuming sites have a payout cap similar to the other incursions. It doesn't add anything dynamic to the sites from a gameplay pov, but that may change depending on how it was implemented. You could make capitals count as multiple pilots in the payout calculations, but not actually increase the per-pilot payout for those flying them. So a carrier or dread in an HQ site might count as, say, 6 pilots in terms of the payout scale calculation, but the person flying it would still only get one pilot's worth of payout (45m ISK in low/null) instead of the number of pilots that hull is "worth" by the count (which would be 270m (45*6) ISK). Would that help? Possibly, but the obvious exploit to that is eject before payout and have those 6 normal ships get the payouts and split them to the dread pilot
Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 9	Posted - 2016.04.04 23:48:29 - [7] - Quote There's a couple arguments: 1: Will capitals allow you to insta-blap everything and make 3 trillion isk/hr? No. There may be some gains, but not in game breaking ways because there's limits. Scouts: The payout for these sites is terrible. If you just warped between the sites in a hyper-spacial, nano'ed capital, you couldn't make more then about 50M isk/hr. VGs. Current site times for a "good" group are about 240 seconds sites. About 1/4 of that is taking gates, warping between sites. Hisec groups currently use nano/hyperspacial BS already, and this will warp slower then that. The rats are primarily frigates and cruisers. Caps, even with HAW, won't do a great job of tracking frigates, and those tend to be a bit of a bottleneck in the site speed. In addition to that you have lock time on the 3 waves. There could be some uses, but no "I WIN" button. Assaults: NCN: No one runs NCNs. You need to have T3s, and it's better to just skip them. OCF: Might be mildly useful, but you still have to wait to tractor the cans in. Still a bunch of frigates. But now there's enough romis it might help you do the site a bit faster. Lock time still matters. HQs: Travel distance will be a big limiting factor. TPPH: Hisec groups do these in about 15 minutes. You have to burn ~150km to get to the tower at the end, which is where you can apply a crapton of DPS, but it'll take you ~10 minutes to get there. Normally this is done with MWD'ing BS, and the travel time is one of the big limiting factors. If you think MWD'ing caps will travel faster then MWD'ing BS, then there might be a problem, but I don't think they will. NRFs: Hisec groups normally do these in about 12 minutes. Range is really important. For Waves 1&2, you need to burn ~70km across the grid, shoot crap, then move another 30km for shooting waves 3&4 (details vary depending on how you do the site) You won't be in range of most of the spawns, and a large percentage of your time will be spent burning. TCRCs: You land ~70km from the tower. Good hisec groups can do this site, payout to payout in 7.5 minutes. With the distance you have to travel and the amount of warping, you'll still do sites in about the same amount of time. You won't be able to get to get in range the tower too much faster while having some amount of tank on. 2: Risk vs Reward: In hisec, the number of loses from PvP is very low. I'm a FC for one of the major hisec groups. I get a mail every time they lose a ship, if it's to rats or due to gankers. The number of losses is pretty close to 0. In nullsec, we often lose people, partially because we're bad, and partially due to gankers. We either get camped into station, or run with hostiles in local. We've had a couple times were someone has got us in a good bubble, and had a good chunk of our fleet tackled. I think when that happened, we lost 1 or 2 ships, because we stayed calm, and handled the situation. I'm quite sure, espically after this thread, there will be plenty of people watching for incursions, and trying to find ways to gank us. This is called "content" I'm willing to be your killmail. Give us some rewards for being your favorite killmail. You can find out where we are, we have to stay in the incursion system to run it, so it's not like we're sneaking around doing this. You can setup a trap for us. You can spend some time, figure out a counter to us, and figure out how to drop us. Feel free to, that's how eve is balanced. 3: For people saying "LOL TITANS/SUPERS WILL OWN": Please tell PL where you are ratting in your titan. I'm quite sure they will have a specialist out to help you soon. If you're dumb enough to rat in a titan, you should make a crapton of isk for that short period. You've got to make a lot of isk/hr to be able to cover that hilarious lossmail. 4: Unless the new guns have 10x higher signature resolutions, they will have worse applied damage. Incursion groups are already doing pretty strange fits to be able to hit cruisers effectively with BSs. (My love goes out to all the shield vindies) It will be challenging to find good fits that will apply a large part of the capital damage to all the incursion rats, which have stupidly low signature radii. 5: Siege won't be that great. You'll be pinned ongrid for quite a while, unable to warp to warp to the next site. You might be able to get one siege cycle off, then you're done. There's at least 5 minutes of your site time right there, not taking into account warp-times or getting into position. 6: Capital Triage/logi/whatever: We're already able to hold the grid with T2 logi easily enough. It doesn't really matter if we use T2 logi or capital logi. Except the T2 logi are much more manuverable. I might be able to get away with half the logi I currently need, but I'd be replacing that with a couple DPS, and it wouldn't radically change how the site works.
FT Diomedes The Graduates 2373	Posted - 2016.04.04 23:48:39 - [8] - Quote The risk in PVE largely comes from other players, everything else is just a barrier to entry. More capital ships out in space doing ANYTHING is a good thing. CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
Soleil Fournier Ultimatum. The Bastion 80	Posted - 2016.04.04 23:50:31 - [9] - Quote I would say incursions weren't really designed for caps, so even though adding them would seem beneficial as a nice option, I lean towards not putting them in there. If you really wanted to allow them in, I'd add sites within incursions that were balanced specifically for caps. That would be more fun for the cap pilots too. That all being said, I don't think it would hurt much to do a timed test case. Try it out for 2 months and see what happens. Review the results and decide to either revert the change or make it permanent.
Lady Gaga Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 0	Posted - 2016.04.04 23:57:52 - [10] - Quote Just stop. Like, it was funny at first but just no.

Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 11	Posted - 2016.04.04 23:58:46 - [11] - Quote PopplerRo wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: ... Thanks to Plaid Rabbit who initially brought up the idea to me and provided his well-reasoned arguments for the concept... Out of curiosity what were those "well-reasoned" arguments? Imo it's not a good idea. As with all pve it'll be instantly min-maxed(Unless you add a hardcap to the number of capitals on grid), proved to be OP and then left untouched for far too long. Either overkill of dread/carriers on grid, or using FAX and then the possibilty for more damage ships to be on grid, assuming sites have a payout cap similar to the other incursions. It doesn't add anything dynamic to the sites from a gameplay pov, but that may change depending on how it was implemented. Can you describe a site and a capital ship configuration that you think would be overpowered? You know the sites really well, can you describe a way to get a capital to go much faster then they are done in hisec. Yes, you'll get some DPS, some site speed improvement. But any in a breaking way? The new capital guns aren't going to do dps like they used to. Dreads will still have their siege timers. Carriers won't be able to remote rep, so they won't be logi+dps rolled into one. They'll be slightly higher dps, but drones take time to travel to apply their damage.
FT Diomedes The Graduates 2374	Posted - 2016.04.04 23:59:37 - [12] - Quote Soleil Fournier wrote: If you really wanted to allow them in, I'd add sites within incursions that were balanced specifically for caps. That would be more fun for the cap pilots too. This would be the only way it would make sense, as far as I can tell. CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
michael chasseur Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 71	Posted - 2016.04.05 00:01:08 - [13] - Quote i can already feel the shekels filling my pockets
Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 11	Posted - 2016.04.05 00:09:50 - [14] - Quote I forgot a point: 7: Hisec groups have a massive pool of pilots to pull from. Nullsec groups don't. Adding in a bit of speed still won't make it overpowered compared to hisec. It's easy to keep a fleet of 40+ pilots running non-stop in hisec, often there's 3+ HQ groups running at any one time, and 10+ more VG groups, so there's a large player base to pull from. Nullsec doesn't have that, so you are not going to get huge numbers that you'd need to be able to get vastly better site times. When we run, a good bit of the time, the pilots have never flown a BS before. The odds of having 60+ perfectly skill pilots for whatever configuration you want to run in isn't near as likely.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1224	Posted - 2016.04.05 00:22:12 - [15] - Quote I'm not a capital pilot or incursion farmer, but every kind of pve that allows capital ships so far has been completely broken by them
Soleil Fournier Ultimatum. The Bastion 81	Posted - 2016.04.05 00:41:53 - [16] - Quote Plaid, I wouldn't think the dps is the problem. I think the massive difference in carrier HP + repping abilities of the FAX'S is what would break the sites, as the NPCs were not designed to deal with it.
Aliventi Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 928	Posted - 2016.04.05 00:46:39 - [17] - Quote Plaid Rabbit wrote: 1:Will capitals allow you to insta-blap everything and make 3 trillion isk/hr? No. There may be some gains, but not in game breaking ways because there's limits. The rats are primarily frigates and cruisers. Caps, even with HAW, won't do a great job of tracking frigates, and those tend to be a bit of a bottleneck in the site speed. 4: Unless the new guns have 10x higher signature resolutions, they will have worse applied damage. Incursion groups are already doing pretty strange fits to be able to hit cruisers effectively with BSs. (My love goes out to all the shield vindies) It will be challenging to find good fits that will apply a large part of the capital damage to all the incursion rats, which have stupidly low signature radii. 86 mil isk tick Avatar would like to disagree. Plaid Rabbit wrote: HQs: Travel distance will be a big limiting factor. TPPH: Hisec groups do these in about 15 minutes. You have to burn ~150km to get to the tower at the end, which is where you can apply a crapton of DPS, but it'll take you ~10 minutes to get there. Normally this is done with MWD'ing BS, and the travel time is one of the big limiting factors. If you think MWD'ing caps will travel faster then MWD'ing BS, then there might be a problem, but I don't think they will. NRFs: Hisec groups normally do these in about 12 minutes. Range is really important. For Waves 1&2, you need to burn ~70km across the grid, shoot crap, then move another 30km for shooting waves 3&4 (details vary depending on how you do the site) You won't be in range of most of the spawns, and a large percentage of your time will be spent burning. TCRCs: You land ~70km from the tower. Good hisec groups can do this site, payout to payout in 7.5 minutes. With the distance you have to travel and the amount of warping, you'll still do sites in about the same amount of time. You won't be able to get to get in range the tower too much faster while having some amount of tank on. Range doesn't seem to be an issue. Which means I don't really need to burn 150km. I just need to burn from gate to gate. Which will be pretty easy with MWDs. Not only that but fighters/Fighter Bombers will cover that distance in no time. I imagine supers will complete these sites in a matter of minutes. Plaid Rabbit wrote: You can setup a trap for us. You can spend some time, figure out a counter to us, and figure out how to drop us. Feel free to, that's how eve is balanced. Cynos can't be lit in deadspace/incursion systems at all. So hot drops are out of the question. Instead, I have to throw subcaps at you. Which won't end well against titans that are tracking NPC frigates. Or you could just have an escape cyno permanently lit so when a real fleet comes in you just cyno everyone out because the incursion rats won't have enough points to tackle you. My only real shot would be to try and catch you when you warp to a new site. Seeing how I can't cyno in to the system at all, due to the incursion cyno jam, you will likely see my fleet coming from at least a system or two away. It will be even safer in lowsec where I can't dictor bubble. I guess it is possible, but only if you truly screw up. Plaid Rabbit wrote: 6: Capital Triage/logi/whatever: We're already able to hold the grid with T2 logi easily enough. It doesn't really matter if we use T2 logi or capital logi. Except the T2 logi are much more manuverable. I might be able to get away with half the logi I currently need, but I'd be replacing that with a couple DPS, and it wouldn't radically change how the site works. Except you would only have to triage is someone truly messed up due to the base EHP of titans and supers with slave implants. Which would be a rarity seeing how quickly a fleet of titans (which is larger than normal because you need fewer logi) would decimate these sites. Heck you could not use FAX or logi at all and just have the titan/super warp out to a pre-triaged FAX who will rep you up in no time and get you back into the fight. Not like you will be pointed enough by the incursion rats anyway. Plaid Rabbit wrote: 3: For people saying "LOL TITANS/SUPERS WILL OWN": Please tell PL where you are ratting in your titan. I'm quite sure they will have a specialist out to help you soon. If you're dumb enough to rat in a titan, you should make a crapton of isk for that short period. You've got to make a lot of isk/hr to be able to cover that hilarious lossmail. And who will stop PL, NCdot, Goons, etc. from doing this? They have more supers than most groups in game. Which means only they can really counter each other's super fleet. Seeing how it would be in the best interest to OTEC the s**t out of this I doubt anyone will lose supers running incursions. You would have to be utterly brain dead or make a massive mistake to lose supers running incursions. Smaller groups won't really be able to form the subcaps to fight a fleet of supers. Seems pretty risk free to me.
Skyrider Deathknight I'm Fine and You Goonswarm Federation 28	Posted - 2016.04.05 00:46:43 - [18] - Quote Soleil Fournier wrote: Plaid, I wouldn't think the dps is the problem. I think the massive difference in carrier HP + repping abilities of the FAX'S is what would break the sites, as the NPCs were not designed to deal with it. You've clearly not met Outuni's & Niarja's and the DPS that happens within NRF last waves / TCRCs and The kundi site.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman CK-0FF Violence of Action. 61	Posted - 2016.04.05 00:50:38 - [19] - Quote Plaid Rabbit wrote: There's a couple arguments:The rats are primarily frigates and cruisers. Caps, even with HAW, won't do a great job of tracking frigates, and those tend to be a bit of a bottleneck in the site speed. In addition to that you have lock time on the 3 waves. ... 4: Unless the new guns have 10x higher signature resolutions, they will have worse applied damage. Incursion groups are already doing pretty strange fits to be able to hit cruisers effectively with BSs. (My love goes out to all the shield vindies) It will be challenging to find good fits that will apply a large part of the capital damage to all the incursion rats, which have stupidly low signature radii. I think you may be underestimating carriers. They can lock super fast with a Networked Sensor Array, and fighters are pretty effective against cruisers. Frigates could still be an issue, but surely with a group like that you'd have someone to paint and web targets. Carriers might have issues with their fighters getting owned though, depending on how much the rats want to target them.
Soleil Fournier Ultimatum. The Bastion 81	Posted - 2016.04.05 00:56:39 - [20] - Quote Skyrider you're saying that there will be more pilot deaths as a result of capitals being added to the sites or less deaths? That these sites will be as hard to do as they are now even with the massive differences between caps and subcaps? Why do people want caps in incursions in the first place? Because they want to fly capitals more? Sure. I want reasons to use caps more as well. But let's not pretend that it won't make incursions easier. Like I said earlier though, let's try it and see. I could be wrong, it's just a prediction, and if it works out that caps don't break the sites, then awesome.

Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 17	Posted - 2016.04.05 00:57:39 - [21] - Quote Aliventi wrote: My biggest worry is the lack of risk vs. the reward. Essentially if things go south with a Subcap fleet lots of ships tend to die. I have a feeling that won't be the case with capitals running the sites. Especially since you can just sacrifice a ship and cyno everyone out. Are you going to make Dictor and Hictor Incursion NPCs? Sure, there are a few pointing ships in these sites, but I don't think enough to keep a super or a titan tackled/keep a sieged dread or a triaged FAX tackled. Can these sites kill a triaged FAX in a reasonable amount of time? If these sites can't kill a FAX quickly then low/nullsec incursions become virtually risk free. Can titan's DD the rats to death? I have a feeling the AoE DD will be quite popular with these fleets if it can insta-clear waves. Players will sit here and claim "I spent a ton of isk making this fleet therefore I deserve to have less risk." I agree with that. There is a fine line between less risk and risk-free. Ensure that this will be far from risk-free even with titans and supers and a mess of FAX on the field. Most losses in an incursion fleet aren't due to tackle. It's stupid mistakes like not broadcasting for reps. I know exactly how to extract from a site, and I drill all the FCs I work with on how to extract. We all know how to exit it, so it's not a huge issue. Plus only Supers and Titans are "immune" to tackle (they will now have 100+ WCS I think). The rats can still tackle Carriers and Dreads.
Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 17	Posted - 2016.04.05 01:00:15 - [22] - Quote Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote: Plaid Rabbit wrote: There's a couple arguments:The rats are primarily frigates and cruisers. Caps, even with HAW, won't do a great job of tracking frigates, and those tend to be a bit of a bottleneck in the site speed. In addition to that you have lock time on the 3 waves. ... 4: Unless the new guns have 10x higher signature resolutions, they will have worse applied damage. Incursion groups are already doing pretty strange fits to be able to hit cruisers effectively with BSs. (My love goes out to all the shield vindies) It will be challenging to find good fits that will apply a large part of the capital damage to all the incursion rats, which have stupidly low signature radii. I think you may be underestimating carriers. They can lock super fast with a Networked Sensor Array, and fighters are pretty effective against cruisers. Frigates could still be an issue, but surely with a group like that you'd have someone to paint and web targets. Carriers might have issues with their fighters getting owned though, depending on how much the rats want to target them. You don't realize how fast people do these in hisec. The frigates get 1 or 2 shotted. Cruisers die insanely fast. Fighters have travel time.
Aliventi Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 930	Posted - 2016.04.05 01:01:02 - [23] - Quote Plaid Rabbit wrote: Plus only Supers and Titans are "immune" to tackle (they will now have 100+ WCS I think). The rats can still tackle Carriers and Dreads. Why would I ever use a carrier when a super carrier can do everything it can better than it can? Why would I use a dread that has to siege to do anything when a Titan can do everything it can do better than it can and has an AoE DD that will slaughter waves of rats?
FT Diomedes The Graduates 2378	Posted - 2016.04.05 01:01:08 - [24] - Quote The cyno jammer in incursion systems would have to go if these were added. And I would recommend adding gateless sites specifically for capitals. CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman CK-0FF Violence of Action. 61	Posted - 2016.04.05 01:02:32 - [25] - Quote Soleil Fournier wrote: So you're saying that there will be more pilot deaths as a result of capitals being added to the sites or less deaths? That these sites will be as hard to do as they are now even with the massive differences between caps and subcaps? Why do people want caps in incursions in the first place? Because they want to fly capitals more? Sure. I want reasons to use caps more as well. But let's not pretend that it won't make incursions easier. Sure it will make lowsec and nullsec incursions easier, but with great risk. There are always people around that would like to kill capitals and it's hard to hide while running incursions. Since you can't hide, the only options are to run or fight. If you run you're not making money, and if you fight you're probably losing money.
Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 17	Posted - 2016.04.05 01:05:54 - [26] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Plaid Rabbit wrote: Plus only Supers and Titans are "immune" to tackle (they will now have 100+ WCS I think). The rats can still tackle Carriers and Dreads. Why would I ever use a carrier when a super carrier can do everything it can better than it can? Why would I use a dread that has to siege to do anything when a Titan can do everything it can do better than it can and has an AoE DD that will slaughter waves of rats? Please rat in a titan. Please. And stay there for hours on end. PLEASE.
Aliventi Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 931	Posted - 2016.04.05 01:09:57 - [27] - Quote Plaid Rabbit wrote: Aliventi wrote: Plaid Rabbit wrote: Plus only Supers and Titans are "immune" to tackle (they will now have 100+ WCS I think). The rats can still tackle Carriers and Dreads. Why would I ever use a carrier when a super carrier can do everything it can better than it can? Why would I use a dread that has to siege to do anything when a Titan can do everything it can do better than it can and has an AoE DD that will slaughter waves of rats? Please rat in a titan. Please. And stay there for hours on end. PLEASE. That isn't a reasoned reply. There is a massive difference between a single titan ratting in sactums and a fleet of supers and titans running an incursion with FAX support. Edit: Also, ratting in a titan would be pretty easy to do safely.
Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 17	Posted - 2016.04.05 01:16:44 - [28] - Quote Soleil Fournier wrote: Plaid, I wouldn't think the dps is the problem. I think the massive difference in carrier HP + repping abilities of the FAX'S is what would break the sites, as the NPCs were not designed to deal with it. What's the real difference if I bring 3 logi ongrid (in faxes) or 9 (in T2 cruisers)? People have figured out the bare minimum number of logi to do the site. As long as you have enough repping power to have more reps then the rats DPS, then you have enough logi. It's a numbers game. Your logi HPS > the rats DPS, you don't lose ships. People have figured this number out. It's 8 for a TCRC, 6 for a NRF, 4 for a TPPH. Groups bring 9 logi just to have room for someone to d/c. What's the difference if I bring 3 faxes or 9 t2 cruisers? Keeping people alive in incursions is more about them broadcasting on time to get reps, then about repping power.
Soleil Fournier Ultimatum. The Bastion 81	Posted - 2016.04.05 01:23:58 - [29] - Quote Well that's my point really. Taking a site that needs 9 pilots currently and turning it into a site that only needs 3 is a massive change.
Xynthiar Tactical Narcotics Team 15	Posted - 2016.04.05 01:24:31 - [30] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Plaid Rabbit wrote: Plus only Supers and Titans are "immune" to tackle (they will now have 100+ WCS I think). The rats can still tackle Carriers and Dreads. Why would I ever use a carrier when a super carrier can do everything it can better than it can? Why would I use a dread that has to siege to do anything when a Titan can do everything it can do better than it can and has an AoE DD that will slaughter waves of rats? AoE DD doesn't work on NPCs, at least at the moment.

Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 17	Posted - 2016.04.05 01:29:15 - [31] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Plaid Rabbit wrote: Aliventi wrote: Plaid Rabbit wrote: Plus only Supers and Titans are "immune" to tackle (they will now have 100+ WCS I think). The rats can still tackle Carriers and Dreads. Why would I ever use a carrier when a super carrier can do everything it can better than it can? Why would I use a dread that has to siege to do anything when a Titan can do everything it can do better than it can and has an AoE DD that will slaughter waves of rats? Please rat in a titan. Please. And stay there for hours on end. PLEASE. That isn't a reasoned reply. There is a massive difference between a single titan ratting in sactums and a fleet of supers and titans running an incursion with FAX support. Edit: Also, ratting in a titan would be pretty easy to do safely. Okay, the more boring version: If you have a titan undocked, in-space, and away from a pos shield, then the titan is vulnerable to be tackled. You have to move the titan to the incursion. You have to dock/undock (once citidels come out), move around systems occasionally. You have to take gates to get into the next site. All of these points you'll be very vulnerable to someone setting up a trap to get you.
Aliventi Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 931	Posted - 2016.04.05 01:34:32 - [32] - Quote Plaid Rabbit wrote: Aliventi wrote: Plaid Rabbit wrote: Please rat in a titan. Please. And stay there for hours on end. PLEASE. That isn't a reasoned reply. There is a massive difference between a single titan ratting in sactums and a fleet of supers and titans running an incursion with FAX support. Edit: Also, ratting in a titan would be pretty easy to do safely. Okay, the more boring version: If you have a titan undocked, in-space, and away from a pos shield, then the titan is vulnerable to be tackled. You have to move the titan to the incursion. You have to dock/undock (once citidels come out), move around systems occasionally. You have to take gates to get into the next site. All of these points you'll be very vulnerable to someone setting up a trap to get you. And how do you propose that trap go down? I can't light a regular cyno in an incursion system. Taking a BlOps fleet, cynoed in at a celestial because I can't light any type of cyno in deadspace, against a fleet of titans and supers with FAX support would be slaughter? All you would have to do is put out scouts and have a emergency out cyno to be literally 99% safe. It would probably be closer to 99.99% safe in lowsec where I can't launch dictor bubbles.
Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 18	Posted - 2016.04.05 01:43:23 - [33] - Quote Soleil Fournier wrote: Well that's my point really. Taking a site that needs 9 pilots currently and turning it into a site that only needs 3 is a massive change. HQs sites take up to 60 pilots, which is normally 51 DPS, 9 logi. This means you could change it to 57 DPS, 3 logi... if you really really trust those logi and their internet connection. Honestly, I'm not sure if I'd use FAX or T2 logi if given the choice. T2 logi travel through the long sites faster, and either provide a remote sebo (for basi fits) or 3 remote tracking computers (for scimi fits). AB Basis and Scimis are already slow for incursion sites, you have to make sure they are in rep range you before the next wave spawns. I believe the speed of faxes will be a tradeoff you have to consider. You'll put yourself at a maximum speed you can do the site (which will cap your isk/hr) but you'll have more dps ongrid. And Last I checked, FAXes can't warp during their triage cycle, so you'll have to wait for that to cycle down before you can move on to the next site. So you'll have to wait (lower your isk/hr) before you can start the next site. I think that will prevent them from being OP in incursions.
Sabriz Adoudel Move along there is nothing here 5752	Posted - 2016.04.05 01:43:27 - [34] - Quote I'm apprehensive about this. It could be a very big ISK faucet if an incursion spawns in a tightly locked down corner of sov null and it is actually feasible to rat in AoE-specced titans. I would be 100% in favor of testing it on TQ for a month but removing it if it proves problematic. I'd be more in favor of a new site designed to accommodate subcap fleets with capital support, and another site that's more oriented to capital/super fleets with subcap support. I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
Aleqs Villint GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2	Posted - 2016.04.05 01:44:05 - [35] - Quote You catch a Titan like you always do: in transit. A Capital ship can't cyno into an Incursion system, and incursion appearance is random. This means, best case, a Titan has to take at least one gate, likely more. I can think of a few ways you can catch a low or null Titan on a gate.
Soleil Fournier Ultimatum. The Bastion 82	Posted - 2016.04.05 01:47:40 - [36] - Quote Titans won't be used in these sites unless their pilot is cool with losing a 100bn isk ship. They won't be a problem. Supers won't be either. If anything it'll just be normal carriers/dreads/faxs.
Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 18	Posted - 2016.04.05 01:52:28 - [37] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Plaid Rabbit wrote: Aliventi wrote: Plaid Rabbit wrote: Please rat in a titan. Please. And stay there for hours on end. PLEASE. That isn't a reasoned reply. There is a massive difference between a single titan ratting in sactums and a fleet of supers and titans running an incursion with FAX support. Edit: Also, ratting in a titan would be pretty easy to do safely. Okay, the more boring version: If you have a titan undocked, in-space, and away from a pos shield, then the titan is vulnerable to be tackled. You have to move the titan to the incursion. You have to dock/undock (once citidels come out), move around systems occasionally. You have to take gates to get into the next site. All of these points you'll be very vulnerable to someone setting up a trap to get you. And how do you propose that trap go down? I can't light a regular cyno in an incursion system. Taking a BlOps fleet, cynoed in at a celestial because I can't light any type of cyno in deadspace, against a fleet of titans and supers with FAX support would be slaughter? All you would have to do is put out scouts and have a emergency out cyno to be literally 99% safe. It would probably be closer to 99.99% safe in lowsec where I can't launch dictor bubbles. Sit cloaked 30km off the beacon in a hic. Wait for the fleet to start going in, then decloak and point someone, and try to get a straggler. Orbit as far out as possible. Have someone just outside the incursion light a cyno and bridge friendlies in, or come in via WH, bring in blops BS, or bring in a crapton of bombers. Bring in more tackle. Apply dps, link killmail in local. If you fail, you lost 150M trying to kill 100B, and that's assuming you aren't able to warpoff. Keep repeating until you get luckly+good.
Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 18	Posted - 2016.04.05 02:04:23 - [38] - Quote Sabriz Adoudel wrote: I'm apprehensive about this. It could be a very big ISK faucet if an incursion spawns in a tightly locked down corner of sov null and it is actually feasible to rat in AoE-specced titans. I would be 100% in favor of testing it on TQ for a month but removing it if it proves problematic. I'd be more in favor of a new site designed to accommodate subcap fleets with capital support, and another site that's more oriented to capital/super fleets with subcap support. The incursions spawn in random locations, and despawn after about a week. So people couldn't setup a magic farm in the back corner of the map and farm it for a year. And AoE titans wouldn't be too useful, you still have the gates and the travel times between sites. I've actually played with SB battleships, and the rats have too much EHP. You need at least 6 SB BS to take out frigates, not to mention the cruisers/BS that spawn in the sites. The rats will also orbit outside of smartbomb range before you can kill them.
Aliventi Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 932	Posted - 2016.04.05 02:10:41 - [39] - Quote Plaid Rabbit wrote: Aliventi wrote: And how do you propose that trap go down? I can't light a regular cyno in an incursion system. Taking a BlOps fleet, cynoed in at a celestial because I can't light any type of cyno in deadspace, against a fleet of titans and supers with FAX support would be slaughter? All you would have to do is put out scouts and have a emergency out cyno to be literally 99% safe. It would probably be closer to 99.99% safe in lowsec where I can't launch dictor bubbles. Sit cloaked 30km off the beacon in a hic. Wait for the fleet to start going in, then decloak and point someone, and try to get a straggler. Orbit as far out as possible. Have someone just outside the incursion light a cyno and bridge friendlies in, or come in via WH, bring in blops BS, or bring in a crapton of bombers. Bring in more tackle. Apply dps, link killmail in local. If you fail, you lost 150M trying to kill 100B, and that's assuming you aren't able to warpoff. Keep repeating until you get luckly+good. E: If your response is "Well, just dock up when you see a neut in local" Well, that hurts my isk efficiency as well, and acts as a balance. Plus at some point we'll assume he's gone afk, and resume running. Sit and be ready to spring your trap. Thank you for making it painfully obvious that you have no idea how trivially easy it will be for a fleet of supers and titans to haze a Hictor. Between all the neuts, webbing and TPing fighters or Super bursts, that hictor, or group of hictors, won't last long. On top of that chances are that the ship targeted would refit to tank before your fleet arrived. Now your fleet is fighting a combat fit super and titan fleet with FAX support. That is going to get very ugly for you very quickly. You still haven't replied to the fact that supers and titans would annihilate HQ sites at a faster pace than faction fit faction BS fleets would. I posted it on the first page.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman CK-0FF Violence of Action. 62	Posted - 2016.04.05 02:19:15 - [40] - Quote I notice that most of the controversy so far seems to be about supers and titans. Perhaps the solution would be to only allow normal capitals and exclude supercaps?

Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 20	Posted - 2016.04.05 02:19:59 - [41] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Plaid Rabbit wrote: Aliventi wrote: And how do you propose that trap go down? I can't light a regular cyno in an incursion system. Taking a BlOps fleet, cynoed in at a celestial because I can't light any type of cyno in deadspace, against a fleet of titans and supers with FAX support would be slaughter? All you would have to do is put out scouts and have a emergency out cyno to be literally 99% safe. It would probably be closer to 99.99% safe in lowsec where I can't launch dictor bubbles. Sit cloaked 30km off the beacon in a hic. Wait for the fleet to start going in, then decloak and point someone, and try to get a straggler. Orbit as far out as possible. Have someone just outside the incursion light a cyno and bridge friendlies in, or come in via WH, bring in blops BS, or bring in a crapton of bombers. Bring in more tackle. Apply dps, link killmail in local. If you fail, you lost 150M trying to kill 100B, and that's assuming you aren't able to warpoff. Keep repeating until you get luckly+good. E: If your response is "Well, just dock up when you see a neut in local" Well, that hurts my isk efficiency as well, and acts as a balance. Plus at some point we'll assume he's gone afk, and resume running. Sit and be ready to spring your trap. Thank you for making it painfully obvious that you have no idea how trivially easy it will be for a fleet of supers and titans to haze a Hictor. Between all the neuts, webbing and TPing fighters or Super bursts, that hictor, or group of hictors, won't last long. On top of that chances are that the ship targeted would refit to tank before your fleet arrived. Now your fleet is fighting a combat fit super and titan fleet with FAX support. That is going to get very ugly for you very quickly. You still haven't replied to the fact that supers and titans would annihilate HQ sites at a faster pace than faction fit faction BS fleets would. I posted it on the first page. Perhaps I didn't get my point communicated well. Your goal is not to engage the whole fleet, your goal is to separate one from the group. Yes, a hictor will die terribly to 50 supers, but your goal is to catch the last one before it activates the gate, and kill it before the fleet can get back to the gate to rescue it. Who will he refit off of? Your goal is to separate him from his friends. Try to get a point on the guy that's slowest to align/last to take the gate. If you aren't successful, warp away, try again at the next gate. Re the other post, I'll go find it and respond to it.
Aliventi Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 933	Posted - 2016.04.05 02:26:54 - [42] - Quote Plaid Rabbit wrote: Perhaps I didn't get my point communicated well. Your goal is not to engage the whole fleet, your goal is to separate one from the group. Yes, a hictor will die terribly to 50 supers, but your goal is to catch the last one before it activates the gate, and kill it before the fleet can get back to the gate to rescue it. Who will he refit off of? Your goal is to separate him from his friends. Try to get a point on the guy that's slowest to align/last to take the gate. If you aren't successful, warp away, try again at the next gate. Re the other post, I'll go find it and respond to it. Then I make sure that the last thing into the site are carriers or FAXes. Incursion rats aren't going to kill a titan before the FAXes arrive. I will gladly sacrifice a FAX if it means I get out with all of my supers and titans. In essence I force you to at least fight my supers with FAX and carrier support. At that point I have the defensive reinforcement advantage.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman CK-0FF Violence of Action. 62	Posted - 2016.04.05 02:39:44 - [43] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Plaid Rabbit wrote: Perhaps I didn't get my point communicated well. Your goal is not to engage the whole fleet, your goal is to separate one from the group. Yes, a hictor will die terribly to 50 supers, but your goal is to catch the last one before it activates the gate, and kill it before the fleet can get back to the gate to rescue it. Who will he refit off of? Your goal is to separate him from his friends. Try to get a point on the guy that's slowest to align/last to take the gate. If you aren't successful, warp away, try again at the next gate. Re the other post, I'll go find it and respond to it. Then I make sure that the last thing into the site are carriers or FAXes. Incursion rats aren't going to kill a titan before the FAXes arrive. I will gladly sacrifice a FAX if it means I get out with all of my supers and titans. In essence I force you to at least fight my supers with FAX and carrier support. At that point I have the defensive reinforcement advantage. Another alternative: Make sure everyone is aligned down the gate and hit warp at the same time. If done properly, that only leaves 1-2 seconds where stragglers aren't in warp, which is not nearly enough time for a HIC to decloak and grab one.
Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 20	Posted - 2016.04.05 02:51:45 - [44] - Quote Aliventi wrote: My biggest worry is the lack of risk vs. the reward. Essentially if things go south with a Subcap fleet lots of ships tend to die. I have a feeling that won't be the case with capitals running the sites. Especially since you can just sacrifice a ship and cyno everyone out. Are you going to make Dictor and Hictor Incursion NPCs? Sure, there are a few pointing ships in these sites, but I don't think enough to keep a super or a titan tackled/keep a sieged dread or a triaged FAX tackled. Can these sites kill a triaged FAX in a reasonable amount of time? If these sites can't kill a FAX quickly then low/nullsec incursions become virtually risk free. Can titan's DD the rats to death? I have a feeling the AoE DD will be quite popular with these fleets if it can insta-clear waves. Players will sit here and claim "I spent a ton of isk making this fleet therefore I deserve to have less risk." I agree with that. There is a fine line between less risk and risk-free. Ensure that this will be far from risk-free even with titans and supers and a mess of FAX on the field. We can already sacrifice one guy and get the rest of the fleet out. Have the fleet align, and wing warp to a safe. From there, we can either warp to the station, a safe pos, hide in a safe and safe-log. Jumping out requires being at 76% cap, warping out doesn't. None of the rats tackle hard enough to keep a super or titan tackled, but they have more then enough points to keep a dread/carrier/fax tackled. I don't believe they are adding in native tackle resistance to them. Right now they can't kill a T2 logi, as long as it's getting reps. Faxes's biggest enemies would probably be otunis, since Otunis have a mean neut (they neut out a BS in about 6 seconds), along with Deltoles have a decent neut fitted as well. If they aren't cleared quickly, I could see them neuting out the fax, and taking it out that way. And every HQ site has 1-3 Otunis in them. Re the DD: Someone else here reported that it doesn't work on NPCs. I'm not sure about that. But even if you can AOE DD the rats, you still have to get into position to AOE the waves. The rats spawn really far apart, this will prevent any kind of hijinks like you're thinking about. The first wave would ways have to be killed using normal means. You then have to travel 100+km to get to the spawn. Even if you had 20 titans, that each popped their AOE on one spawn, you'd have to wait for everyone to be in position, so that you could hit the spawns. In a TPPH, all 3 rooms have rats in them when you enter, so you can't AOE those waves away. You might be able to find some way to skip the 2nd and 3rd wave using AOE, but you'd first have to travel 70km to the spawn points before triggering the next wave. You could possibly AOE the 2nd and 3rd waves, but you then have ot do the towerbash still. I don't think that will be a problem. In a NRF, You have the inital spawn for wave 1, then wave 2 spawns in 2 different locations, about 80km and 120km from the gate. Wave 3 spawns in 2 locations about 120km and 140km from the gate. Wave 4 spawns about 120km from the gate and 200km off the gate. So you'd have to get in position first, then AOE the waves in order. I don't see how this would be faster then just blapping the rats like normal. Maybe it might be useful for wave 4, but then you'll be stuck in position for 1 minute without the rest of your fleet there. in a TCRC, AOE doesn't matter, you have to do a tower bash. What matters is applied damage to the tower that's 70km away from the entrance.
Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 20	Posted - 2016.04.05 02:58:11 - [45] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Plaid Rabbit wrote: Perhaps I didn't get my point communicated well. Your goal is not to engage the whole fleet, your goal is to separate one from the group. Yes, a hictor will die terribly to 50 supers, but your goal is to catch the last one before it activates the gate, and kill it before the fleet can get back to the gate to rescue it. Who will he refit off of? Your goal is to separate him from his friends. Try to get a point on the guy that's slowest to align/last to take the gate. If you aren't successful, warp away, try again at the next gate. Re the other post, I'll go find it and respond to it. Then I make sure that the last thing into the site are carriers or FAXes. Incursion rats aren't going to kill a titan before the FAXes arrive. I will gladly sacrifice a FAX if it means I get out with all of my supers and titans. In essence I force you to at least fight my supers with FAX and carrier support. At that point I have the defensive reinforcement advantage. Okay, so your suggestion is the attacker gets to drop 100+ bombers/blops BS/whatever on the carrier/fax instead of the super/titan with the trap? So the attacker only gets to kill a 1b isk ship with every site?
Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 20	Posted - 2016.04.05 03:01:05 - [46] - Quote Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote: Aliventi wrote: Plaid Rabbit wrote: Perhaps I didn't get my point communicated well. Your goal is not to engage the whole fleet, your goal is to separate one from the group. Yes, a hictor will die terribly to 50 supers, but your goal is to catch the last one before it activates the gate, and kill it before the fleet can get back to the gate to rescue it. Who will he refit off of? Your goal is to separate him from his friends. Try to get a point on the guy that's slowest to align/last to take the gate. If you aren't successful, warp away, try again at the next gate. Re the other post, I'll go find it and respond to it. Then I make sure that the last thing into the site are carriers or FAXes. Incursion rats aren't going to kill a titan before the FAXes arrive. I will gladly sacrifice a FAX if it means I get out with all of my supers and titans. In essence I force you to at least fight my supers with FAX and carrier support. At that point I have the defensive reinforcement advantage. Another alternative: Make sure everyone is aligned down the gate and hit warp at the same time. If done properly, that only leaves 1-2 seconds where stragglers aren't in warp, which is not nearly enough time for a HIC to decloak and grab one. I wouldn't underestimate how talented some dictor pilots are. Wait to see the gate animation, decloak, and spam lock everything, with your infinipoint overheated. Also don't underestimate how bad some super pilots are. So your plan is to risk your 20b isk ship, on the fact you can press your warp button within 1 second of everyone else? E: Sorry if I'm sounding a bit sarcastic. I just don't see this as a viable way to always get into the site safely, but healthy debate is always a good thing.
Aliventi Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 933	Posted - 2016.04.05 03:05:19 - [47] - Quote Plaid Rabbit wrote: Aliventi wrote: Plaid Rabbit wrote: Perhaps I didn't get my point communicated well. Your goal is not to engage the whole fleet, your goal is to separate one from the group. Yes, a hictor will die terribly to 50 supers, but your goal is to catch the last one before it activates the gate, and kill it before the fleet can get back to the gate to rescue it. Who will he refit off of? Your goal is to separate him from his friends. Try to get a point on the guy that's slowest to align/last to take the gate. If you aren't successful, warp away, try again at the next gate. Re the other post, I'll go find it and respond to it. Then I make sure that the last thing into the site are carriers or FAXes. Incursion rats aren't going to kill a titan before the FAXes arrive. I will gladly sacrifice a FAX if it means I get out with all of my supers and titans. In essence I force you to at least fight my supers with FAX and carrier support. At that point I have the defensive reinforcement advantage. Okay, so your suggestion is the attacker gets to drop 100+ bombers/blops BS/whatever on the carrier/fax instead of the super/titan with the trap? So the attacker only gets to kill a 1b isk ship with every site? Except you blew your load and didn't kill a super or a titan. Go ahead and try again. I know you are there now I will keep track of you. A billion isk is what? The cumulative payout of 1-2 sites? That's trivial. Ignorable. "Everyone send your last payout to X." Problem solved. While you are trying to reset I will keep running sites. My cumulative income will outweigh your killing ability. This is the post I wanted you to reply to. Try and focus on your claims that burning long ranges will makes this less profitable vs. my claims that supers and titans won't have to burn at all and your claims that titan's can't hit frigate and cruiser NPCs vs. proof that they can with ease.
Sabriz Adoudel Move along there is nothing here 5753	Posted - 2016.04.05 03:58:23 - [48] - Quote Plaid Rabbit wrote: Sabriz Adoudel wrote: I'm apprehensive about this. It could be a very big ISK faucet if an incursion spawns in a tightly locked down corner of sov null and it is actually feasible to rat in AoE-specced titans. I would be 100% in favor of testing it on TQ for a month but removing it if it proves problematic. I'd be more in favor of a new site designed to accommodate subcap fleets with capital support, and another site that's more oriented to capital/super fleets with subcap support. The incursions spawn in random locations, and despawn after about a week. So people couldn't setup a magic farm in the back corner of the map and farm it for a year. And AoE titans might work, but you'd have to get into the middle of the spawn. The spawns are far enough apart the fact that you have to burning to them would prevent doing the sites in a broken way. TPPHs require about 200km of travel, NRFs require about 120 KM of travel (to bomb half the wave, but not the full wave), TCRCs just require a bunch of dps applied to the tower. E: Oh, and yes, I'd say put it on TQ, if it gets abused horribly, fix it, by either removing it, or addressing the problem. E: And I think dedicated cap site to get people undock is a great idea. I'm hoping this will be a starting point to tell CCP that we want some more capital content, and this could be a starting point for them considering it more seriously. I wasn't suggesting that people would have permanent incursion farms, instead I was suggesting that every time one spawned in one of those sorts of places it would be a massive faucet for a short time. Actual mechanics of how supercaps would clear the sites are something that people who currently rat in supers would know more about than me. I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 20	Posted - 2016.04.05 04:03:08 - [49] - Quote Aliventi wrote: 86 mil isk tick Avatar would like to disagree. Range doesn't seem to be an issue. Which means I don't really need to burn 150km. I just need to burn from gate to gate. Which will be pretty easy with MWDs. Not only that but fighters/Fighter Bombers will cover that distance in no time. I imagine supers will complete these sites in a matter of minutes. Cynos can't be lit incursion systems at all. Covert cynos can't be lit in deadspace sites. So hot drops are out of the question. Instead, I have to throw subcaps at you. Which won't end well against titans that are tracking NPC frigates. Or you could just have an escape cyno permanently lit so when a real fleet comes in you just cyno everyone out because the incursion rats won't have enough points to tackle you. My only real shot would be to try and catch you when you warp to a new site. Seeing how I can't cyno in to the system at all, due to the incursion cyno jam, you will likely see my fleet coming from at least a system or two away. Using BlOps cynoed in to a celetial and warped to the site would be pretty lol seeing how CCP hasn't rebalanced BlOps BS. I would be trying to fight supers with FAX support with BlOps BS, SoE ships, T3 logi, and stealth bombers. That's not going to end well. It will be even safer in lowsec where I can't dictor bubble. I guess it is possible, but only if you truly screw up. Except you would only have to triage is someone truly messed up due to the base EHP of titans and supers with slave implants. Which would be a rarity seeing how quickly a fleet of titans (which is larger than normal because you need fewer logi) would decimate these sites. Heck you could not use FAX or logi at all and just have the titan/super warp out to a pre-triaged FAX who will rep you up in no time and get you back into the fight. Not like you will be pointed enough by the incursion rats anyway. And who will stop PL, NCdot, Goons, etc. from doing this? They have more supers than most groups in game. Which means only they can really counter each other's super fleet. Seeing how it would be in the best interest to OTEC the s**t out of this I doubt anyone will lose supers running incursions. You would have to be utterly brain dead or make a massive mistake to lose supers running incursions. Smaller groups won't really be able to form the subcaps to fight a fleet of supers. Seems pretty risk free to me. Incursion rats have a much lower sig then normal rats, so they tend to act a bit differently then standard rats. Can you give me the Avatar's gun resolution/tracking/optimal/falloff/dps of those guns so I can do a more detailed comparison? The optimal range image you linked me doesn't show it's tracking. I'm sure you can push out that far you stack optimal, but what does that to to your tracking (But it's at least pulse, so there's a chance to get that working). That's only 4500 dps. That is 4x the DPS of a normal incursion Nightmare. It's less then 2x of a incursion Vindicator. And doesn't provide long-range webs. Yes it's better, but not game-breakingly so. It's also 50x more expensive. I think you missed my point of getting one guy separated from the group. Do you not think it's possible to get one guy separated from the group, or do you think it's not possible to kill them once they are separated before help arrives? Try getting 60 people to not jump through a gate, then get them to all jump through the gate all within the same tick. You'll see how hard it is. You only need (or want) one straggler to get caught in your trap. The sites are already getting completed in a matter of minutes, this is something I think you're missing. Good groups can do a TCRC in under 8 minutes, payout-to-payout, which is the time from completing a site, to completing the next site, and all the travel involved in it. There's enough traveling involved to prevent things from becoming terribly overpowered. Some of these sites are doable in 480 seconds. Time efficiency is already important. Every 40 seconds added to the site time is a ~11% loss in isk/hr. Aligning down the gate and taking the gate alone accounts for ~30 seconds. Warping to the next site adds in another ~60s. That gives you ~390 seconds in site. Yes, bringing a titan in will be faster. But your guns still have to cycle, you still have to lock targets. You can only Blap the site so hard. Even with 60 Titans doing a TCRC, assuming they apply 100% damage to the target... they'll take the 8 minute site to about 6. (the MTAC still has to burn to the MTAC factory before you can apply DPS, we've had 4 fleets contesting a TCRC, and still didn't put a dent into it). So with a fleet 50x more expensive then what they use in hisec, you can make about 30% more isk/hr. PS: I also can't wait for 60 titans being in one incursion to be the start of the next B-R. I do agree it'll be safer in lowsec, but there's a lot more neuts running around in lowsec as well. More people to track your patterns, and it's less unusual for there to be a neut in local. More chances that neut is ready to attack you. I don't see PL and Goons cooperating on anything right now. But if that happens, go run the mothership in something like cruisers or T3s. That will cause the incursion to despawn and shut down the incursion, cutting off their money making.
Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 20	Posted - 2016.04.05 04:05:05 - [50] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Plaid Rabbit wrote: Aliventi wrote: Plaid Rabbit wrote: Perhaps I didn't get my point communicated well. Your goal is not to engage the whole fleet, your goal is to separate one from the group. Yes, a hictor will die terribly to 50 supers, but your goal is to catch the last one before it activates the gate, and kill it before the fleet can get back to the gate to rescue it. Who will he refit off of? Your goal is to separate him from his friends. Try to get a point on the guy that's slowest to align/last to take the gate. If you aren't successful, warp away, try again at the next gate. Re the other post, I'll go find it and respond to it. Then I make sure that the last thing into the site are carriers or FAXes. Incursion rats aren't going to kill a titan before the FAXes arrive. I will gladly sacrifice a FAX if it means I get out with all of my supers and titans. In essence I force you to at least fight my supers with FAX and carrier support. At that point I have the defensive reinforcement advantage. Okay, so your suggestion is the attacker gets to drop 100+ bombers/blops BS/whatever on the carrier/fax instead of the super/titan with the trap? So the attacker only gets to kill a 1b isk ship with every site? Except you blew your load and didn't kill a super or a titan. Go ahead and try again. I know you are there now I will keep track of you. A billion isk is what? The cumulative payout of 1-2 sites? That's trivial. Ignorable. "Everyone send your last payout to X." Problem solved. While you are trying to reset I will keep running sites. My cumulative income will outweigh your killing ability. This is the post I wanted you to reply to. Try and focus on your claims that burning long ranges will makes this less profitable vs. my proof that supers and titans won't have to burn at all and your claims that titan's can't hit frigate and cruiser NPCs vs. proof that they can with ease. That still kills your isk efficiency. And also you now likely have hostiles camping in local. Do you want to go to the next site with a 100 man fleet in local?

Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 20	Posted - 2016.04.05 04:09:08 - [51] - Quote Sabriz Adoudel wrote: I wasn't suggesting that people would have permanent incursion farms, instead I was suggesting that every time one spawned in one of those sorts of places it would be a massive faucet for a short time. Actual mechanics of how supercaps would clear the sites are something that people who currently rat in supers would know more about than me. If you compare it to the hisec incursion faucet, it'd still be next to nothing. Hisec incursions are run non-stop 23/7, by 100+ pilots at once. When you get the lucky drop in your backyard, why not let the people take a bit of money out of it. And even if you figure some way of totally OP through the incursions that I don't know of, and do them twice as fast as hisec, so what? It's pilots, undocked in low/null, ready to be shot. If you don't want to shoot them, fine, that's your choice, but at least they don't have concord there to rescue them. That still provides a decent balance.
Zappity Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 2802	Posted - 2016.04.05 06:30:38 - [52] - Quote More caps out in space doing stuff is good. Players tempted from highsec to low and null is good. Idea is good. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Oxide Ammar 241	Posted - 2016.04.05 07:15:29 - [53] - Quote Zappity wrote: More caps out in space doing stuff is good. Players tempted from highsec to low and null is good. Idea is good. You are god damn right, The moment they implement this I'll be packing my stuff and head to nullsec LOL. Anyway who ever think this will make you print isk faster is out of his mind, we are rolling TCRC in hisec in less than 10 mins and in ships costs more than fitted carrier so I don't know what you all talking about, Have you ever saw titan or super aligning and warping from site to site before ( usually incursion sites are 30+ AU away from the sun ) ? I could go make myself a sandwich and come back and my capital still didn't finished warping. Therefore wasted time between aligning/warping and clearing sites are balanced, I'm sure it will be more lucrative than it is right now but not by far ridiculous amount. Lady Areola Fappington: -áSolo PVP isn't dead!-á You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
Anthar Thebess 1484	Posted - 2016.04.05 07:23:53 - [54] - Quote What about NPC Null missions - let me lose a ratting carrier - open all gates. Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!
Andy Koraka Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion 59	Posted - 2016.04.05 08:20:13 - [55] - Quote I like the idea and it wouldn't really be overpowered at all using capitals. Highsec incursion fleets routinely blitz the Vanguard sites in 5-10 minutes, and a capital fleet running the sites is hard limited by their 5 minute siege/triage cycles which seems pretty fair by comparison. My only reservation is that if people commit capitals to an incursion site for the 'easy' ISK they should be stuck there until the site is completed, perhaps by a structure in the site that infinite-points any caps/supers on grid until after the payout trigger.
Morrigan LeSante Black Omega Security The OSS 1361	Posted - 2016.04.05 08:25:16 - [56] - Quote You'd have to make it so they couldn't jump out.
Archeras Umangiar CRY.NET Nihilists Social Club 28	Posted - 2016.04.05 10:47:08 - [57] - Quote Bluemelon wrote: ok
Syrias Bizniz Zebra Corp Goonswarm Federation 437	Posted - 2016.04.05 11:10:34 - [58] - Quote Why risk capitals in Incursions, when you could take carriers and make 200m/hr in FHubs?
Oxide Ammar 241	Posted - 2016.04.05 11:18:36 - [59] - Quote Syrias Bizniz wrote: Why risk capitals in Incursions, when you could take carriers and make 200m/hr in FHubs? I'm sure you can make more ISK/LP doing incursion in capitals for TCRC and NRF but as for TPPH it is gonna be pain as hell for first 2 rooms. Lady Areola Fappington: -áSolo PVP isn't dead!-á You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
Syrias Bizniz Zebra Corp Goonswarm Federation 437	Posted - 2016.04.05 12:36:07 - [60] - Quote nvm

FT Diomedes The Graduates 2382	Posted - 2016.04.05 13:05:49 - [61] - Quote Syrias Bizniz wrote: Why risk capitals in Incursions, when you could take carriers and make 200m/hr in FHubs? It remains to be seen whether this is still possible after the patch. CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
Feodor Romanov Caldari Provisions Caldari State 34	Posted - 2016.04.05 15:00:26 - [62] - Quote Every capital ship undocked is a good thing. I think capitals in nulls will be fine. Low sec incursions have some specific. Low inc. runners need to move their stuff (ships, ammo, etc) from incursion to incursion every few days. That would be hard to do it with capitals because of ships fatique. In theory this can be realised by placing capital ships to most of lowsec regions. That is very expensive but can make sense because of rised income. Of course Sansha would need some hictors in the NPC fleets.
Syrias Bizniz Zebra Corp Goonswarm Federation 438	Posted - 2016.04.05 15:05:35 - [63] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: Syrias Bizniz wrote: Why risk capitals in Incursions, when you could take carriers and make 200m/hr in FHubs? It remains to be seen whether this is still possible after the patch. I rather shut my mouth now, else it really wont be that much once citadel hits TQ...
Aleqs Villint GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2	Posted - 2016.04.05 16:24:35 - [64] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Plaid Rabbit wrote: Aliventi wrote: And how do you propose that trap go down? I can't light a regular cyno in an incursion system. Taking a BlOps fleet, cynoed in at a celestial because I can't light any type of cyno in deadspace, against a fleet of titans and supers with FAX support would be slaughter? All you would have to do is put out scouts and have a emergency out cyno to be literally 99% safe. It would probably be closer to 99.99% safe in lowsec where I can't launch dictor bubbles. Sit cloaked 30km off the beacon in a hic. Wait for the fleet to start going in, then decloak and point someone, and try to get a straggler. Orbit as far out as possible. Have someone just outside the incursion light a cyno and bridge friendlies in, or come in via WH, bring in blops BS, or bring in a crapton of bombers. Bring in more tackle. Apply dps, link killmail in local. If you fail, you lost 150M trying to kill 100B, and that's assuming you aren't able to warpoff. Keep repeating until you get luckly+good. E: If your response is "Well, just dock up when you see a neut in local" Well, that hurts my isk efficiency as well, and acts as a balance. Plus at some point we'll assume he's gone afk, and resume running. Sit and be ready to spring your trap. Thank you for making it painfully obvious that you have no idea how trivially easy it will be for a fleet of supers and titans to haze a Hictor. Between all the neuts, webbing and TPing fighters or Super bursts, that hictor, or group of hictors, won't last long. On top of that chances are that the ship targeted would refit to tank before your fleet arrived. Now your fleet is fighting a combat fit super and titan fleet with FAX support. That is going to get very ugly for you very quickly. You still haven't replied to the fact that supers and titans would annihilate HQ sites at a faster pace than faction fit faction BS fleets would. I posted it on the first page. This is a disengenuous argument and you're misrepresenting the opposition forces in this scenario. It does nothing for you to claim a single HIC can't survive against a gang of Supers while pretending the HIC's pilot would not also have supercaptial support on-grid or very close-by. Moreover, actually landing tackle in the incursion systems is unrealistic compared to simply having a log-off trap on the gate into the incursion constellation. I see no problem with allowing Capitals in low/null Incursions. If it results in greater site times (unlikely, considering warping between sites is the biggest time loss), then consider it to be an advantage to running them in riskier environments. Highsec incursion sites are already run in perfect or near-perfect safety and the sheer amount of money being made there is absolutely staggering for how low risk it is.
Jack Roulette Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2016.04.05 17:00:22 - [65] - Quote My gut says this would only be acceptable if the incursions had a chance to escalate with something like drifters with DDs and AI that prioritizes capital targets. There has to be a real risk of losing capitals to the site NPCs. Otherwise you're just raising the skill ceiling for incursion fleets by another very large notch, and pushing that content even farther away from newer players. Honestly, I don't think anyone actually has a clue how the new caps will really operate, and the meta certainly hasn't adjusted to the changes. It's FAR to early for anyone to really make informed decisions about this subject. Personally I think CCPs time would be better spent on rebalancing the sites, adding new content, and making more of the sites viable.
NinjaTurtle Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 101	Posted - 2016.04.05 17:20:17 - [66] - Quote Hate to say it but Plaid Rabbit's list of ideas is really more of a list of why you shouldn't even bother. There's literally nothing in there that stands out as a reason to actually take the time to do it. It's like saying something is so cripplingly bad that it'd be impossible to exploit therefore it's a good idea
Syrias Bizniz Zebra Corp Goonswarm Federation 438	Posted - 2016.04.05 17:33:58 - [67] - Quote Oh yeah about the whole HIC trap stuff: forget it. You're not holding even remotely long enough on grid to get ANYTHING there before you explode. Add Sites specifically for Capitals, and have the Sansha in there turbobubble everything. Else, a capitalfleet will be almost impossible to pin down. Alternatively, remove the remote repair impedancy from hics/tone it down to 50 or 33%.
Praal Bearded BattleBears I N F A M O U S 43	Posted - 2016.04.05 17:55:02 - [68] - Quote Soleil Fournier wrote: Taking a site that needs 9 pilots currently and turning it into a site that only needs 3 is a massive change. Is it really a positive change for the game where one of the only pve experiences in the game that not only encourages grouping but requires it and adequetly rewards it changes to need 2/3 less people by allowing bigger ships into the sites? Except compared to hisec, very few nullsec incursions ever get done due low rewards/risk, the need for specialized fits, numbers of pilots and the fact they only spawn in your space every once in a while. So out here, adding options to do incursions with fewer pilots in less specialized fits might actually increase the amount of grouping and teamwork.
Aleqs Villint GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2	Posted - 2016.04.05 19:00:14 - [69] - Quote Jack Roulette wrote: My gut says this would only be acceptable if the incursions had a chance to escalate with something like drifters with DDs and AI that prioritizes capital targets. There has to be a real risk of losing capitals to the site NPCs. Otherwise you're just raising the skill ceiling for incursion fleets by another very large notch, and pushing that content even farther away from newer players. Honestly, I don't think anyone actually has a clue how the new caps will really operate, and the meta certainly hasn't adjusted to the changes. It's FAR to early for anyone to really make informed decisions about this subject. Personally I think CCPs time would be better spent on rebalancing the sites, adding new content, and making more of the sites viable. The risk comes from other players. Implying that there needs to be an additional layer of risk on top of that just because you're using a captal ship shows a fundimental misunderstanding of how easy it is to complete Incursion sites. Now if you're saying that using a cap ship escalates to bigger rewards in exchange for risk, I could get on board with that.
Swiftstrike1 Swiftstrike Incorporated 905	Posted - 2016.04.05 21:17:11 - [70] - Quote It might work if caps and supers triggered extra spawns. For those who don't know, incursion rats have no bounties and their salvage value is minimal. This might actually work the way WH escalations were originally intended to work... Or it could work the way the new WH escalations will work??? Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.

Swiftstrike1 Swiftstrike Incorporated 905	Posted - 2016.04.05 21:21:44 - [71] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: do you think it would be a good idea to allow capital ships into lowsec and nullsec incursion sites after the Citadel expansion? How? Would you be allowing them to take the gates or would you be completely removing the gates? If you allow caps to take accel gates, will this affect other PVE? If you remove the gates from low/null incursions, will you do the same in hisec? This would change things quite a bit... Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
Aliventi Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 935	Posted - 2016.04.05 23:03:23 - [72] - Quote Plaid Rabbit wrote: Incursion rats have a much lower sig then normal rats, so they tend to act a bit differently then standard rats. Can you give me the Avatar's gun resolution/tracking/optimal/falloff/dps of those guns so I can do a more detailed comparison? The optimal range image you linked me doesn't show it's tracking. I'm sure you can push out that far you stack optimal, but what does that to to your tracking (But it's at least pulse, so there's a chance to get that working). That's only 4500 dps. That is 4x the DPS of a normal incursion Nightmare. It's less then 2x of a incursion Vindicator. And doesn't provide long-range webs. Yes it's better, but not game-breakingly so. It's also 50x more expensive. I think you missed my point of getting one guy separated from the group. Do you not think it's possible to get one guy separated from the group, or do you think it's not possible to kill them once they are separated before help arrives? Try getting 60 people to not jump through a gate, then get them to all jump through the gate all within the same tick. You'll see how hard it is. You only need (or want) one straggler to get caught in your trap. The sites are already getting completed in a matter of minutes, this is something I think you're missing. Good groups can do a TCRC in under 8 minutes, payout-to-payout, which is the time from completing a site, to completing the next site, and all the travel involved in it. There's enough traveling involved to prevent things from becoming terribly overpowered. Some of these sites are doable in 480 seconds. Time efficiency is already important. Every 40 seconds added to the site time is a ~11% loss in isk/hr. Aligning down the gate and taking the gate alone accounts for ~30 seconds. Warping to the next site adds in another ~60s. That gives you ~390 seconds in site. Yes, bringing a titan in will be faster. But your guns still have to cycle, you still have to lock targets. You can only Blap the site so hard. Even with 60 Titans doing a TCRC, assuming they apply 100% damage to the target... they'll take the 8 minute site to about 6. (the MTAC still has to burn to the MTAC factory before you can apply DPS, we've had 4 fleets contesting a TCRC, and still didn't put a dent into it). So with a fleet 50x more expensive then what they use in hisec, you can make about 30% more isk/hr. PS: I also can't wait for 60 titans being in one incursion to be the start of the next B-R. I do agree it'll be safer in lowsec, but there's a lot more neuts running around in lowsec as well. More people to track your patterns, and it's less unusual for there to be a neut in local. More chances that neut is ready to attack you. I don't see PL and Goons cooperating on anything right now. But if that happens, go run the mothership in something like cruisers or T3s. That will cause the incursion to despawn and shut down the incursion, cutting off their money making. You can go on SISI and see the stats for the guns. I have no doubt they can track incursion frigates. The part about range was to point out that I don't need to burn 150km to kill a structure. It isn't moving so I don't really need tracking. And sure, the DPS might seem a little low with scorch. But again, I am doing the tower bash at least twice as fast as a subcap fleet with low DPS ammo at long ranges. It will be much faster because I don't have to burn into range like subcaps and it will be even faster if I can burn into higher DPS ammo range. The tower bash is the longest part of these sites. Which means I am getting completion times upwards of minutes less than subcapitals. All praise the isk firehose! You have to understand that PL, NCdot, etc. are not as dumb as the highsec carebears running incursions. They can follow orders and do it well. If the FC says "Titans in first. Okay. Supers are next. Okay. FAXes come on in." There is .0000000001% chance of a super or a titan still being on grid as the last thing. Go ahead and blow your load to kill a FAX or two and camp the system afterwards. Just remember that you will just brought a fight to PL, NCdot, etc. who are going to form up to kill you because you are there. They aren't afraid to back up their subcap fleet with titans, supers, carriers, and FAXes. Home field advantage. You might get lucky, but I doubt it. While it may seem like Goons and PL aren't going to cooperate on things right now, that doesn't mean they won't 6 months from now when Goons take Delve or whatever crappy space they end up taking. And you clearly don't know about lowsec. If you think the amount of blues in nullsec is bad you need to visit lowsec. They blue each other so much I often wonder what the point of playing is if you have no one to fight. It won't take long term blues to make incursion grinding with supers a reality. They will be more than happy to temp blue for a week and may even cooperate to max the isk they gain for a week.
Aliventi Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 935	Posted - 2016.04.05 23:22:51 - [73] - Quote Here is what I think should happen: Make a new class of sites designed for capital ships or mixed capital ship and subcap fleets. have it work for 100+ ship fleets. Make the payouts worth the risk and the time, effort, and expense of the fleet. Ideas based off of the new content: You could have a site that is finishing off a RFed Citadel coming out of RF. Have another where you have to kill a titan and a few supers with a support fleet. Have the last one be defending a citadel against an RFing dread fleet. Create Hictor and Dictor rats. Put the risk in incursions of this magnatude for those who choose to run them. Remove the cyno jamming of incursion systems. Also, make the new sites not deadspace so cynos can be lit inside them. Optional but helpful: If removing the cyno jamming is out of the question, or even if it is in question, create a, perhaps SoE, interdictor that can be BlOps bridged. Ideally it would mirror BlOps BS so that it wouldn't have a covert cloak, but could move quickly when cloaked.
Sabriz Adoudel Move along there is nothing here 5757	Posted - 2016.04.06 01:08:12 - [74] - Quote Plaid Rabbit wrote: Sabriz Adoudel wrote: I wasn't suggesting that people would have permanent incursion farms, instead I was suggesting that every time one spawned in one of those sorts of places it would be a massive faucet for a short time. Actual mechanics of how supercaps would clear the sites are something that people who currently rat in supers would know more about than me. If you compare it to the hisec incursion faucet, it'd still be next to nothing. Hisec incursions are run non-stop 23/7, by 100+ pilots at once. When you get the lucky drop in your backyard, why not let the people take a bit of money out of it. And even if you figure some way of totally OP through the incursions that I don't know of, and do them twice as fast as hisec, so what? It's pilots, undocked in low/null, ready to be shot. If you don't want to shoot them, fine, that's your choice, but at least they don't have concord there to rescue them. That still provides a decent balance. I think this should be tested in practice. It's quite likely that you are right - I'm nervous about adding them, but not outright against them. Also highsec incursions should not be paying liquid ISK. If they paid just LP the overfarming would stop, the LP would rise in price, and incursion groups would be encouraged to screw over other incursion groups in order to keep the supply of LP as tight as possible. I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
Sabriz Adoudel Move along there is nothing here 5757	Posted - 2016.04.06 01:13:28 - [75] - Quote Feodor Romanov wrote: Every capital ship undocked is a good thing. I think capitals in nulls will be fine. Low sec incursions have some specific. Low inc. runners need to move their stuff (ships, ammo, etc) from incursion to incursion every few days. That would be hard to do it with capitals because of ships fatique. In theory this can be realised by placing capital ships to most of lowsec regions. That is very expensive but can make sense because of rised income. Of course Sansha would need some hictors in the NPC fleets. And, of course, Sansha HIC BPCs should drop from some sites; ideally with a drop rate that targets an 800-1500m price point for the ship. Lowsec runners will probably keep a rigged and fitted capital in each of 4 or 5 locations, and if they use any extreme bling modules, those will be carted around separately in either interceptors or JFs. I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
Oxide Ammar 243	Posted - 2016.04.06 07:20:03 - [76] - Quote To all who are requesting changes to current incursion to make it harder or able to pin down the capital fleet have forget the OP about, it was simple question by Fozzie asking if it is good idea or not, He didn't stated anything other than altering deadspace restriction to allow capital ships and that is all. As incursion runner in Highsec I consider it a good idea in general for multiple reasons: 1- It adds extra reason for any hisec pilots to try living in lowsec or null. 2- Forming 40 man fleet in nullsec in cheap fits to grind incursion sites is painful, they would rather prefer that fleet go to pvp than doing this, but on the other hand forming 8-9 man fleet in capitals farming incursion sites for couple of hours might be actually doable. 3- The moment CCP announced drifter incursion everyone thought these were meant to be for capitals but we got disappointed when they stated they aren't, drifters DD one shotting ships is crap especially with low payout to compensate so they can leave sansha incursion out of capital formula and allow it for drifters but up the pay out by much. 4- Since incursion move randomly every 7 days to different constellation, I doubt they will produce major isk faucet here, because you can't guarantee that next spawn will be in your sov space to run them endlessly like in Hisec. 3- As it stated before every capital ship undock is good thing, it creates fights and more variety reasons to use capital other than big fights which like it happens once or twice per month if we are lucky. 4- Everyday CCP breaks invisible restriction wall is good thing to the game, It gives you the feel of sandbox-y game. Lady Areola Fappington: -áSolo PVP isn't dead!-á You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
Vic Jefferson Stimulus Rote Kapelle 973	Posted - 2016.04.06 07:33:23 - [77] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: I'm not a capital pilot or incursion farmer, but every kind of pve that allows capital ships so far has been completely broken by them On the other hand, there would be a reason to actually want to run incursions in places other than high. Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
Kithran 127	Posted - 2016.04.06 11:44:05 - [78] - Quote Aliventi wrote: You can go on SISI and see the stats for the guns. I have no doubt they can track incursion frigates. The part about range was to point out that I don't need to burn 150km to kill a structure. It isn't moving so I don't really need tracking. And sure, the DPS might seem a little low with scorch. But again, I am doing the tower bash at least twice as fast as a subcap fleet with low DPS ammo at long ranges. It will be much faster because I don't have to burn into range like subcaps and it will be even faster if I can burn into higher DPS ammo range. The tower bash is the longest part of these sites. Which means I am getting completion times upwards of minutes less than subcapitals. All praise the isk firehose! While I agree the OP is missing things I feel I should point out you've missed something important here - the 150km distance he talks about isn't from warp to the structure, its from warp in to second gate, that warp in to third gate and then from final warp in to structure. The main reason a TPPH is the longest site to complete is that distance and even if the titan fit allows max dps to be applied from the final warp in without moving you still have the issue of the travel to the previous two gates. A quick summary of the three HQ sites (as I don't think capital useage will really be beneficial to the pilot in the smaller sites as they stand): TPPH - 3 rooms, gate to next room becomes active once all rats killed, 1 wave in first two rooms, 3 waves in last room then tower becomes shootable. In high sec probably takes around 15 minutes to complete, 2-3 minutes of which is shooting tower. NRF - single room, 4 waves of rats furthers spawn approx 100 km from warp in, rats spawn in different (but known) locations for each wave, 10-12 minutes to complete depending both on fleet composition and how many rats actually spawn. TCRC - single room, tower to kill which completes site however rats stay on grid even then, rats respawn on a timer once destroyed (some don't but most do, timer lengths vary by rat). Tower reps rapidly unless mechanic involving moving a 7500m3 item 10ish km every 2 minutes takes place, source of item and destination approx 100km from warp in.
Skyrider Deathknight I'm Fine and You Goonswarm Federation 29	Posted - 2016.04.06 11:58:36 - [79] - Quote I'm an null sec incursion FC for my alliance, for those that are unaware null sec incursions allow 50% more people on grid and payout about 20% more, however most of that extra payout is negated through null sec taxes. I would like to throw out some points that have yet to be mentioned. 1 - There are times we struggle to keep a HQ fleet alive or even get it off the ground just because we don't have the pilots interested within incursions. And comments have come up that highsec is better because of the risk vs reward. So it's just more convenient to log a highsec alt and farm a highsec incursion. 2 - People have alts dedicated to different things. For example all capital focus pilots have the skills to fly a cheap battleship and fly within incursions but the risk to move a battleship through null sec be it through a fleet or on it's own, reaching back to point 1 that it's just better to log a highsec alt to run incursions due to the payouts being similar. 3 - I theory craft incursions for null sec and looking primarily at dreads and carriers, there isn't really a good way to have a full fleet of capitals to run these incursions in a very effective manor, however if we look at Dreads and Carriers being more of a support based role to help speed up the site I could see them being able to shave off anywhere between 1-3minutes off a site depending which site is ran. Just how PvP involving capitals most of the time it's capitals supporting a subcap fleet as full on capital warfare with subcap fleets supporting has dwindled in recent times so this will may actually provide a small amount of content for capital pilots. 4 - These new citadels in nullsec, we'll have to use the new L citadels to be able to dock capitals as mediums won't allow docking of dreads & carriers. For those that are unaware carriers common use outside of pvp is for suit-casing due to the 1mil SMB they have (for highsec carebears this is basically a combat capable bowhead). So before an incursion has even started being ran we've committed billions of assets dedicated to pve. So with that in mind is the current 20% extra payout and 50% more on grid (that is rarely fully filled) really worth risking everything we'll have to move? I believe it's doesn't. Which I have concerns with increasing risk levels to null sec incursion runners with the new patch. I believe capitals could be the answer to re-balance to risk VS reward Will capital ships make a huge impact on how incursions are being ran? As mentioned above and I do not wish to divulge my crafting in such a public space but dreads and carriers will improve site times slightly when they are around, if they are allowed doesn't mean it'll always be the case that they will there running. You have to also consider how skill intensive a capital ship is to be effective, for those that scream "But skill injectors" they come at a price when you consider the amount of SP needed for a capital to be effective. I've yet to see what a titan / super can do but i'm going based off being able to ship a L Citadel into an incursion. As I personally don't see my alliance or any alliance being happy with such high value ships being away from any kind of combat zones and that could die to rats. Also you would have to field an XL Citadel if you want to have the pleasure of letting them dock. Capitals can die to incursion rats. Capitals can and have died to incursion rats before on a gate. I won't name and shame those pilots but Outuni's were involved. 1 Outuni is deadly to even a battleship, and in 2 of 3 HQ sites there are 2 on grid. In an NRF 1-3 could spawn. Lets not forget that a sieged dread has no outside support so if it gets neuted that cap is gone until it's out of siege. Yes there are capital cap boosters now, however that takes up a fitting slot and uses charges that take up 96-125m3 cargo space. Then you have to manage your own personal local reps so going afk for a few seconds you could find yourself out of cap and missing most of your tank. Which then you're screwed over because you're in siege so you may have to watch your capital die without that cap booster.
Vibiana Frontier Trading Company 44	Posted - 2016.04.06 16:01:32 - [80] - Quote Tl;dr without new sites caps are not needed/benefitial. If task takes no dev time, it may be done, just to see how people use it. If otherwise, time could be spent elsewhere.

Vic Jefferson Stimulus Rote Kapelle 976	Posted - 2016.04.06 16:04:09 - [81] - Quote Skyrider Deathknight wrote: So with that in mind is the current 20% extra payout and 50% more on grid (that is rarely fully filled) really worth risking everything we'll have to move? I believe it's doesn't. Which I have concerns with increasing risk levels to null sec incursion runners with the new patch. I believe capitals could be the answer to re-balance to risk VS reward On the subject of risk/reward here. Honestly blingy pirate battleships are more at risk, as when you lose those it tends to hurt. Capitals on the other hand, after insurance, aren't actually that bad. Using many capitals very well could result in less risk, even though lossmails may be flashier. Additionally, with many capitals around, it raises the bar with what is needed to interfere with incursion runners. If you don't have caps of your own, your ability to mess with caps is limited at best. This is terrible design, especially in conjunction with the vastness of null. Krabification. Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
Mina Sebiestar Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate 1069	Posted - 2016.04.06 16:33:04 - [82] - Quote Simple opinion If just allowing caps to enter sites than i am against it mostly due to hp pools those ships are bringing in vs rats that did not get designed around those numbers. If changing sites to accommodate caps fleet than yes please do them and thank you for actually changing incursions. Typhoon Fleet Issue SOE skin for the win.
BlitZ Kotare Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 142	Posted - 2016.04.07 01:29:27 - [83] - Quote I haven't read most of the other responses in this thread, I'm mostly responding directly to the OP. I feel like regular capitals might be OK in some of the larger existing lowsec and nullsec incursion sites, Assaults, maybe Vanguards and the Mothership itself. An easy way to allow this would be simply modifying the existing acceleration gates to permit their entry. However the new Supercarriers and Titans are probably overpowered in a PvE context that is not explicitly designed with them in mind. If you're willing to commit to a full rebalance of existing Incursion content then sure, redesign the larger sites (or even create a new XL site) with capitals and supers in mind and allow them in too. Maybe just make the 'capitals allowed' sites ungated so that everyone can just warp into them directly. Personally I don't feel that there needs to be excessive pve tackle in pve sites, it's up to the aggressor to tackle their prey and shouldn't be made too easy by the game itself. As much as I'm all for shooting pve ships in space, it's just lazy thinking on the part of hunting parties that the game "owes" them content and so all ratting ships should be tackled whenever they're in a site.
Hopelesshobo Tactical Nuclear Penguin's 591	Posted - 2016.04.07 03:55:07 - [84] - Quote I don't see why there couldn't be a test run for a few months to see what the communities do to see if it would be an actual issue. Without breaking open EFT to see what's what specifically right now, my initial feeling is the only threat a Triaged FAX would face, would be the Outunis. But really the Outunis that spawn in assaults are not an issue because they spawn far enough away from the beacon that they can be killed before they get into neut range by a competent fleet. The same is true for TPPH and NRF. This leaves TCRCs to be the only threat where the Outunis spawn close enough to apply neut pressure. But this can be avoided by preloading the TCRC on purpose, and sending in your anchor to secure the Outuni agro before the FAXes get sent in. From there, the PVP threat I would see is catching someone that took a gate late, or wasn't aligned quite right so they had to realign down the gate and getting pointed and dropped on by a T3 covert cyno fleet. Also the logistics for groups that wanted to farm lowsec incursions with moving their capitals around, when you factor in jump fatigue, largely out scales subcap logistics. Even if you were not lighting cynos, you are forced to stick to lowsec routes. Groups would probably want half a dozen capitals seeded around so they wouldn't have to move their capitals to the opposite side of New Eden to run on a regular basis. So to sum it all up, until I take a detailed and hard look at this, I'm not seeing a large issue with doing a test run for a few months just to see what happens because I'm not seeing this becoming a normal thing people do. Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Vic Jefferson Stimulus Rote Kapelle 977	Posted - 2016.04.07 04:47:37 - [85] - Quote BlitZ Kotare wrote: Personally I don't feel that there needs to be excessive pve tackle in pve sites, it's up to the aggressor to tackle their prey and shouldn't be made too easy by the game itself. There needs to be much, much more than there is. There are almost no sites in k-space where you cannot get safe before the would be hunter has gotten on grid with you. 99% of ratter deaths are due to them not paying attention, maybe 1% is due the skill of the hunter, but the predominant, deciding factor is was the ratter paying any attention. The fact that there is no commitment to any of the sites makes it sorta lame. The only time ive seen people fight in K-Space over pve, is DED sites, as you can rob someone of the rewards, and you do have to defend it to earn the rewards. Anoms and Incursions just have an unlimited number of sites, so the best strategy is still total avoidance and total safety. That should not be the case in a game about risk and reward. Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
Anthar Thebess 1488	Posted - 2016.04.07 12:08:05 - [86] - Quote This is why i like Sansha npc missions. LP are worthless (unless running broken burner sites), currently all isk is in the tags. You need to guard your MTU, or hunt for someone MTU to get True reward. Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3134	Posted - 2016.04.07 12:39:18 - [87] - Quote BlitZ Kotare wrote: Personally I don't feel that there needs to be excessive pve tackle in pve sites, it's up to the aggressor to tackle their prey and shouldn't be made too easy by the game itself. As much as I'm all for shooting pve ships in space, it's just lazy thinking on the part of hunting parties that the game "owes" them content and so all ratting ships should be tackled whenever they're in a site. If there is no tackle, there is no risk. Incursions don't put out anywhere near the kind of DPS needed to threaten to kill caps in a matter of seconds, meaning even if you stuff up you have more than enough buffer to handle it all before you warp the one ship out. My short & sweet opinion, unless the sites are rebalanced for capital EHP & DPS, then no. And rebalancing the sites then makes them unrunnable without capitals.
Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 25	Posted - 2016.04.07 15:27:47 - [88] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: BlitZ Kotare wrote: Personally I don't feel that there needs to be excessive pve tackle in pve sites, it's up to the aggressor to tackle their prey and shouldn't be made too easy by the game itself. As much as I'm all for shooting pve ships in space, it's just lazy thinking on the part of hunting parties that the game "owes" them content and so all ratting ships should be tackled whenever they're in a site. If there is no tackle, there is no risk. Incursions don't put out anywhere near the kind of DPS needed to threaten to kill caps in a matter of seconds, meaning even if you stuff up you have more than enough buffer to handle it all before you warp the one ship out. My short & sweet opinion, unless the sites are rebalanced for capital EHP & DPS, then no. And rebalancing the sites then makes them unrunnable without capitals. There is almost 0 risk to any non-cruiser in incursions. If you look at how most people fit incursion ships, it's literally as paper-tanked as you can get, while still having enough resists that logi can rep you. VGs tend to use a 1-3 slot tank (Yes, some groups just use a rig for their tank, they are very good) HQs tend to use a 4-5 slot tank. (Rig, DC, 2 adaptive invuls) And even with these setups, most groups have close to 0 losses. Most often you'll lose a logi every couple hours to every couple days. Your biggest problem is logi not applying reps to people fast enough and/or people not broadcasting on time, and you'll still have that problem. My earlier posts cover how it won't be totally overpowered for DPS, since you'll have to travel in these sites. Caps can replace some of the ships currently used, and may be faster, but the travel time keeps enough bottlenecks in place that you won't see sites normally done in 15 minutes done in 2. What will likely happen is something what you can do in hisec with 40 people in 15 minutes, can be done in low/null by 30 people in 15 minutes, or 60 people in 12 minutes. But it won't be stupidly OP.
Vic Jefferson Stimulus Rote Kapelle 980	Posted - 2016.04.07 20:18:20 - [89] - Quote Plaid Rabbit wrote: There is almost 0 risk to any non-cruiser in incursions. To me, this is more a function of the lack of player-player interaction in incursions, and that player-rat interactions can be so gamed and streamlined once you have done the particular site 100 times. There is no variation, no challenges, no anything really once you have optimized your fits and tactics. I've run in your incursion group before, and I never even for a moment felt my ship was at risk from other players; yeah you know how to make this happen, yet the fact that it is possible is anathema to a game like this. Incursions will remain absurdly safe and some of the highest reward/lowest risk PvE in the game until players are allowed to meaningfully interfere in them. Capitals aren't the answer, this will just enable a few people to overexploit their use, and then raise the bar to run incursions. Arguably the only good thing incursions bring to the table is a way for people to make ISK in highsec to recover a loss in other areas, but at the same time this safe, guaranteed income poisons the rest of the content ecosystem in the game. Everything in the game needs risk, and the majority of that risk should come from players. Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 25	Posted - 2016.04.07 21:12:30 - [90] - Quote Vic Jefferson wrote: Everything in the game needs risk, and the majority of that risk should come from players. I do agree that's a problem with incursions, across the board, all locations, not just hisec or nullsec. I just think we should be able to risk another type of ship. The fact that incursions are far too risk free with their high reward is a whole different question. I've got suggestions for that, but I'm trying to stay on-topic.

Vic Jefferson Stimulus Rote Kapelle 980	Posted - 2016.04.07 21:27:21 - [91] - Quote Plaid Rabbit wrote: Vic Jefferson wrote: Everything in the game needs risk, and the majority of that risk should come from players. I do agree that's a problem with incursions, across the board, all locations, not just hisec or nullsec. I just think we should be able to risk another type of ship. The fact that incursions are far too risk free with their high reward is a whole different question. I've got suggestions for that, but I'm trying to stay on-topic. I think it's entirely relevant here. It's an organic system - nothing is truly 100% independent. It's not what this change will do by itself, it's what this change will do to make incursions more EvE like overall. Like, the only reason I am even a little for this proposed change is because it will (or could) shift the incursion emphasis a little more towards null and low, whereas now its dominated by highsec. Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3135	Posted - 2016.04.07 22:05:20 - [92] - Quote Vic Jefferson wrote: I think it's entirely relevant here. It's an organic system - nothing is truly 100% independent. It's not what this change will do by itself, it's what this change will do to make incursions more EvE like overall. Like, the only reason I am even a little for this proposed change is because it will (or could) shift the incursion emphasis a little more towards null and low, whereas now its dominated by highsec. Ever since CCP buffed the fleet size for low/null there has been a basically full time Low Sec incursion fleet taking advantage of the over 200% payout for the fleet relative to Highsec. There is no reason the various Null groups couldn't also be doing the same when incursions land in their area of space. Most of them just chose not to.
Vic Jefferson Stimulus Rote Kapelle 981	Posted - 2016.04.07 23:09:54 - [93] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Vic Jefferson wrote: I think it's entirely relevant here. It's an organic system - nothing is truly 100% independent. It's not what this change will do by itself, it's what this change will do to make incursions more EvE like overall. Like, the only reason I am even a little for this proposed change is because it will (or could) shift the incursion emphasis a little more towards null and low, whereas now its dominated by highsec. Ever since CCP buffed the fleet size for low/null there has been a basically full time Low Sec incursion fleet taking advantage of the over 200% payout for the fleet relative to Highsec. There is no reason the various Null groups couldn't also be doing the same when incursions land in their area of space. Most of them just chose not to. Incursions act much differently in null due to cynojamming actually having a negative effect. If you are just chasing Sansha around low, you don't live there, the cyno jamming effect helps you more than anything, whereas actually trying to live in space that is cyno jammed is problematic. Last incursion I did in sov-null was literally over in 12 hours from start to finish - first opportunity to end it is usually taken. It is ironic that, for many reasons, in sov null incursions are the least accessible and the least utilized, as far as I know, whereas the logistic and practicality of running them in high and low make those many times more attractive. Which again, is more than tangential to the issue at hand. You want to make running them in deep null interesting and lucrative, but one would have to be exceptionally careful not to hand over the tools to overexploit them with caps, without also making it practical and attractive for antagonists to play the other side of the game. Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
Corvald Tyrska Valknetra 112	Posted - 2016.04.08 02:00:39 - [94] - Quote Vic Jefferson wrote: Plaid Rabbit wrote: Vic Jefferson wrote: Everything in the game needs risk, and the majority of that risk should come from players. I do agree that's a problem with incursions, across the board, all locations, not just hisec or nullsec. I just think we should be able to risk another type of ship. The fact that incursions are far too risk free with their high reward is a whole different question. I've got suggestions for that, but I'm trying to stay on-topic. I think it's entirely relevant here. It's an organic system - nothing is truly 100% independent. It's not what this change will do by itself, it's what this change will do to make incursions more EvE like overall. Like, the only reason I am even a little for this proposed change is because it will (or could) shift the incursion emphasis a little more towards null and low, whereas now its dominated by highsec. Well you could always have a Faction Warfare style signup to join Sansha and allow people who do to freely attack anyone running the sites, even in HiSec. Adds the risk back in.
Kaphrah Nemesis Logistics Nemesis Enterprises. 44	Posted - 2016.04.08 03:23:10 - [95] - Quote bahahahaha 10/10 would buy nyxes for that. owait aeons the new **** nvm. rabbit srsly if u run these sites. TPPH is the only annoying thing here. Travel in NRF or TCRC to be in optimal... with carriers? Fighters, I choose YOU! Dreads wont hit anything in NRFs anyway (okok tcrc but change ship for each site?) also dont forget supers losing ewar immunity. sit still, get webbed to warp, party hard. as much as I'd love to gloriously fly a nyx into new tcrc world record times (it goes below 7.5 btw), I'd rather have them design new sites for capitals, if allowing them at all. capitals in existing sites would seriously be OP, just think of tcrc's and... 3 supers can already do the site faster (inb4 incursion nano nyx ~). Also, keep supers cap full all the time (those 2 hardeners maybe...) and they can just jump off if anything goes spooky.
Asuka Solo Instant Annihilation I N G L O R I O U S 3015	Posted - 2016.04.08 05:54:47 - [96] - Quote Fozzy. I'd Love to start running Titan boosts for incursion fleets in hisec. Just allow caps and supers into hisec and delete cynos. for serious. Me would love you long time. But erm.... Without spider tanking non-triage carriers? Capital Incursions in lowsec & null only? You expect peeps to go and enjoy this with those crappy FAX hulls as much as they farm hisec sites? lolz Fozzy, you funny. But I'm going to make a few points about this: 1) Incursion communities tend to favor Turret systems (instant high levels of dps) over missile / drone platform ships (The exceptions being sentry drones on myrms / domies). The missiles don't apply damage well enough to those fast moving rats, in addition to the range those rats can start engaging at compared to the low damage longer range missiles we get in eve presently. In this respect, the only capital ships that would be able to fill a role would be the Phoenix (or even the Leviathan), provided there is webbing support (rapiers, huggins, lokis, bhalgorns, ashimus Vigilances or Vindis) in the fleet assisting with the webbing actions to slow down rats enough (and target paint them enough) for the capital missiles to be of use. Sentry drones are much more useful (fantastic in large numbers), but with most drone bay sizes being what they are, flying anything except myrms and battleships (read domis / rattlesnakes) that can field 3 or more, the dps loss (esp for small fleets) isn't worth the effort (and time) of putting up with the hassle of running the sites. Now if we could still have pre-citadel carriers with sentry drones? Yea sure... no problem. 2) Dreadnoughts. With the old anti-structure / anti-capital guns, these will be useless (both in siege and out of siege) to hit frigate sized rats that aren't webbed or TPd et mass due in large part to the way guns work in eve (projectile size / target size / tracking / sig radius / transversals / av et al). The new HAW weapons will most likely work a whole lot better against sansha rats, but again, your limiting the engagement range to 25-45km and giving caps insane locking times because of low scan res values (the whole "why should a capital ship target stuff as fast as a frigate / cruiser / BS" argument that forms the basis of rifters online). More over, your forcing the dreads to go into siege to use HAWs.... which implies no remote repairs (in incursion sites... have you ever run any of these yourselves? no logi when you need reps = deadmeat) and those rats will chew through capital EHP like there's no day after the day after tomorrow. So in my opinion, unless there is a fundamental shift in the way siege works (for example, by allowing remote repairs from FAXs in triage / siege - by adding a -ewar resistance value so to speak to a ship in siege and then gimping the reps received from FAX's in triage to say 50% effectiveness of what they get if not in siege) Dreads wont see allot of action in incursion sites. Sure - people use them to farm sleepers in wormholes and claim they farm 3 bil isk an hour. Sleepers are not sansha rats. a single dread with a local repper will be able to tank sleepers.... I'd love to see that dread last against sansha in a whole incursion site with its local tank and no support. Esp when the neuts start coming in and you run out of cap charges for your shiny new capital ASB / ARR. So again (given the points above), I'd expect to see the phoenix used (if any dreads get usage at all). 3) Carriers / Super carriers. With the new drones being what they are, I'd expect superiority fighters to do 90% of the work in incursion sites. But those drones being as weak and feeble as they are, and not having the ability to "assign them" or to "set their default behavior such as passive / aggressive etc), running incursion sites with the new fighter mechanism will be a painfull process. And why risk a super carrier at such an increased cost when a normal carrier can do the same job for a fraction of the price and still make you want to slash your wrists and goto hisec to farm in sub caps. More over, no more spider tanking non triage carriers. Death sentence for whoever needs to play logi (FAX) if they get room agro (hint, sansha's like primarying logi ships that run more than 3 reps). What I do see working is carriers supported by conventional incursion fleets and sub capital logi (that surprisingly, is good game design to allow fast moving non triage logi to spider tank based on the foundation (not ceiling) of limited hit-points.... /rant) sitting hundreds of kms off the entry points of sites, sniping rat waves with fighters and LR turrets. Super carrier super weapons will mean next to nothing in the existing incursion sites. 4) Titans: The new hack and slash / straight line & AoE doomsdays will most likely be a focus point for these sites. If those doomsdays take out rats in their path, then: 1) 3-4 titans will clear VG sites in about as long as it takes each titan to take the gate into the site and set off a doomsday. 2) 3-9 titans will clear AS sites in about as long as it takes each titan to take the gate into the site and set off a doomsday. 3) 3-12 titans will clear HQ sites in about as long as it takes each titan to take the gate into the site and set off a doomsday, then slowboat to the next accel gate and the subsequent rooms. /rinse & repeat. If the DDs dont work, then we'll see tracking titans of both shield and armor varieties, using HAWs to clear rooms. Given the crappyness of FAX's that can't rep each other in triage (due to crap capital / super capital game design imo), I'd expect sub capital logi wings to escort these titans. This will definitely attract pvp attention et mass... so again, it will be less incursion farming, more pew pew / more risk / more people not bothering unless the entire constellation is locked down tighter than goonswarms hold on the northern portion of eve (derp). 5) FAXes. Just allow them to... Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Asuka Solo Instant Annihilation I N G L O R I O U S 3015	Posted - 2016.04.08 06:04:06 - [97] - Quote Part 2: 5) FAXes Just allow them to remote rep other faxes in triage, and other caps in siege... then it might mean something. Otherwise, lets talk about preventing remote assistance between sub capital logistics to make eve "truly interesting and fun" Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
ITTigerClawIK Galactic Rangers EVEolution. 478	Posted - 2016.04.08 13:28:12 - [98] - Quote i think people are forgetting the fact that capitals are incredibly slow when it comes to warp times so i have a feeling in most cases it would just be way more effective ISK per hour wise to just do it in battleships/T3's regardless of the amount of DPS and EHP they have.
Huffy Dragon Another Corp.. 4	Posted - 2016.04.08 14:19:11 - [99] - Quote While I am amazed by thinking about all the site strategies you can come up with by using HAW Dreads, I am also afraid about the risk vs reward equation. For people not being the local superpower, using a capital incursion fleet is just straight suicide. For people that are the local superpower, its probably printing isk with almost no risk. Of course incursions spawn randomly, so no one gets to permagrind them. But then you have empires like the old CFC space, which basically guaranteed you having an incursion somewhere in your space all the time.
Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 25	Posted - 2016.04.08 14:29:04 - [100] - Quote Huffy Dragon wrote: While I am amazed by thinking about all the site strategies you can come up with by using HAW Dreads, I am also afraid about the risk vs reward equation. For people not being the local superpower, using a capital incursion fleet is just straight suicide. For people that are the local superpower, its probably printing isk with almost no risk. Of course incursions spawn randomly, so no one gets to permagrind them. But then you have empires like the old CFC space, which basically guaranteed you having an incursion somewhere in your space all the time. Even when the CFC owned the entire north and western side of the map, we only had a spawn about 1 out of every 3 weeks. Post phoebe, when we gave up the Cloud Ring and down, it took it to one in every 4 weeks on average. We'd have little spurts of 2-3 back to back, then go 3 months without one.

Moinge Interstellar Pancakes Nemesis Enterprises. 2	Posted - 2016.04.08 15:34:22 - [101] - Quote It seems like many guys here didn't understand the mechanics in an incursion site. There is no need of logis at all if you run a full fleet of carrirers. Just give everybody a bit of a local tank and you're fine. The NPC's switch the target ages before you die with the massive EHP of capital ships. The numbers of EHP after the citadel release is another thing to consider but even if they get nerfed it's not mentionable. A full TCRC has around 20k DPS. With a 5k DPS tank you live long enough until the targets are switching. After that you are repping up again, done. If the current incursion mechanics are used you yolo in with carriers and you can run sites times that are currently only possible within a contest. With the incoming capital MWD's even the TPPH isn't a real problem. Dreads are not worth fielding becasue any site will end before one siege cycle will end. The only disadvantage will be the warp speed. considering the bigger fleets in low/ nullsec and the higher payout you'll earn alot of money. so i think using capitals with the current mechanics will break the system more or less. if there are special sites for capitals it woould be more intersting because current sansha rats can't harm a well fitted carrier in a fleet. Today an incursion ships in highsec costs 3 to 4b. an insured carrier could do it better with less money, seems a little bit broken then if the can fly the same sites. and as stated it's insured. if you loose it, take the next one ;-) Skyrider Deathknight wrote: I'm an null sec incursion FC for my alliance, for those that are unaware null sec incursions allow 50% more people on grid and payout about 20% more, however most of that extra payout is negated through null sec taxes. ..... As mentioned above and I do not wish to divulge my crafting in such a public space but dreads and carriers will improve site times slightly when they are around, if they are allowed doesn't mean it'll always be the case that they will there running. What? your thoughts are to genius to publish them here? oh please bring your holy ingeniousness to us, we will pray for you every day!
Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 25	Posted - 2016.04.08 15:49:25 - [102] - Quote Moinge wrote: It seems like many guys here didn't understand the mechanics in an incursion site. There is no need of logis at all if you run a full fleet of carrirers. Just give everybody a bit of a local tank and you're fine. The NPC's switch the target ages before you die with the massive EHP of capital ships. The numbers of EHP after the citadel release is another thing to consider but even if they get nerfed it's not mentionable. A full TCRC has around 20k DPS. With a 5k DPS tank you live long enough until the targets are switching. After that you are repping up again, done. If the current incursion mechanics are used you yolo in with carriers and you can run sites times that are currently only possible within a contest. With the incoming capital MWD's even the TPPH isn't a real problem. Dreads are not worth fielding becasue any site will end before one siege cycle will end. The only disadvantage will be the warp speed. considering the bigger fleets in low/ nullsec and the higher payout you'll earn alot of money. so i think using capitals with the current mechanics will break the system more or less. if there are special sites for capitals it woould be more intersting because current sansha rats can't harm a well fitted carrier in a fleet. Today an incursions ships in highsec costs 3 to 4b. an insured carrier could do it better with less money, seems a little bit broken then if the can fly the same sites. and as stated it's insured. if you loose it, take the next one ;-) CCP is getting rid of the remote-rep carriers, so you'll need dedicated FAX logi. But I think their tank will hold through a triage cycle. You can local rep a ton in triage. Like any triage, the question is about cap. I'm wondering if we'll get the otunis and deltoles down fast enough to not die terribly. An Otuni neut could kill a sieged/triaged cap. How could you get stupidly fast site times in a carrier? You can't use sentries post-patch, so you still have travel time for the drones? The capital MWDs will get you up to about 1k/sec not as fast as a battleship, but fast enough to do the site in a reasonable time. Yes, you'll earn a lot of money, but how does that compare to the 23/7 isk you can earn from hisec. You should be able to earn more money in low then null, then sitting there safely in hisec. I don't see how it'll break the system. Currently incursion rats can't harm a well fitted incursion BS either. The only reason you die is if you don't broadcast. You'll die in your carrier if you don't broadcast as well, your window for broadcasting will be larger, but same rules apply.
Moinge Interstellar Pancakes Nemesis Enterprises. 2	Posted - 2016.04.08 16:05:33 - [103] - Quote Plaid Rabbit wrote: CCP is getting rid of the remote-rep carriers, so you'll need dedicated FAX logi. But I think their tank will hold through a triage cycle. You can local rep a ton in triage. Like any triage, the question is about cap. I'm wondering if we'll get the otunis and deltoles down fast enough to not die terribly. An Otuni neut could kill a sieged/triaged cap. How could you get stupidly fast site times in a carrier? You can't use sentries post-patch, so you still have travel time for the drones? The capital MWDs will get you up to about 1k/sec not as fast as a battleship, but fast enough to do the site in a reasonable time. Yes, you'll earn a lot of money, but how does that compare to the 23/7 isk you can earn from hisec. You should be able to earn more money in low then null, then sitting there safely in hisec. I don't see how it'll break the system. Currently incursion rats can't harm a well fitted incursion BS either. The only reason you die is if you don't broadcast. You'll die in your carrier if you don't broadcast as well, your window for broadcasting will be larger, but same rules apply. read again please. i mentioned LOCAL tank, not remote reps. EFT says to me that an Archon currently has 80k capacitor. an outuni neut caps out around 3k and has a long cycle. what do 40 or more carries with some outunis? they die horribly. so even if the outuni(s) get out more than one cycle it's not a big deal for the cap of a carrier. a vindicator can do 1.4 to 1.5k m/s. It has to travel nearly 100 km to shoot the tower in a TCRC. As a carrier you warp in and get the fighters on the tower. The fighters are faster than a vindicator and they have more DPS. nothing to add here. In a TPPH the carriers are slower, yes but you can kill everything while traveling to the next gate. Currently incursion Battleships reach the gate long before the spawn is dead. In a NRF it's the same loek the TCRC warp in and let the fighters move. If you fly currently in a battleship the incursions can harm you of course. if you get full stage in some sites and you forget to broadcast for 5 seconds it will be very tough to save you. in some communities you are dead (no names here). in a carrier you problably have enough ehp to survive until the aggro is switching even without repping.
Sturmwolke 688	Posted - 2016.04.08 20:39:38 - [104] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: We we're calling on all incursion runners for your feedback: do you think it would be a good idea to allow capital ships into lowsec and nullsec incursion sites after the Citadel expansion? It'll be an isk money printer once the runners finalize min-maxing their setups. HQ sites will be nearly risk free from the PVE side with a capital anchor. For incursions, there is no middle ground when running for isks, either VG (ease of formup) or HQ (best return), Assaults even if you open the jumpgates for capitals, would still remain status quo i.e.largely ignored and statistically the worst site in terms of no. completed. Any arguments that it would open up Assault sites to more utilization are simply irrelevant without impacting the isk/hr balance between sites. No adhoc pirates or small gangs will be inclined to drop on fleets that regularly include capitals. Only the more organized fleets would engage with capitals. Net effect = safer incursion running. Where is this so called "well reasoned arguments" , please link it for posterity? To expect feedback from the public while hiding the actual context of the arguments is an underhanded way of ensuring things get through with minimal noise (just like RL's TPPA/TPP boondoggle) . What are the contexts? What are you REALLY after when introducing capitals to lowsec/null incursions? a) Increase isk faucet? (once min-maxed and no balance pass is done, yes) b) Increase participation/conflict? (once word gets out you make more isk through this method, yes) c) Increase capital usage? (unlikely to make noticeable dent in the numbers of capitals in use - expected use and low no. of lowsec/null incursion runners) d) Entice nullbears to form regular incursion fleets due to all the above? (yep, that will likely happen down the road, depending on the isk returns & ease of fleet setup) a) is the cornerstone. That is a huge negative. b), c) and d) are the result of a). It does not/will not exist without a). Let's do this simple. You're back to the same old story, basically a rebalance of lowsec/null incursions ... no not a rebalance, a buff in the guise of introducing capitals.
Skyrider Deathknight I'm Fine and You Goonswarm Federation 32	Posted - 2016.04.08 23:37:43 - [105] - Quote Moinge wrote: What? your thoughts are to genius to publish them here? oh please bring your holy ingeniousness to us, we will pray for you every day! Please don't misquote what I say. That was a reply to myself to the question "Will capital ships make a huge impact on how incursions are being ran?" Tactics and strategy is what I do, this place is for feedback not for s* posting. I gave an overall effect on such tactics. Moinge wrote: There is no need of logis at all if you run a full fleet of carrirers. With any experience in incursions with the new mechanics to carriers you'll realize how terrible this would be. Moinge wrote:** The only disadvantage will be the warp speed. Again this is incorrect. Dreads core damage come from being in siege which for you information that would disallow remote assistance. So getting shield and cap would solely come from that pilot, with the nerf coming with the refitting during combat there is no refitting to help the pilot unscrew his/her mistake. As per my last post I explained high threat targets already on field that could do some very serious damage to a triage / siege pilot. There are other obvious flaws that I wish to not make them as obvious as they are now. I recommend that you try some private theory crafting to form your own informed feedback so it's unbiased.
Moinge Interstellar Pancakes Nemesis Enterprises. 2	Posted - 2016.04.09 00:47:05 - [106] - Quote Skyrider Deathknight wrote: Moinge wrote: What? your thoughts are to genius to publish them here? oh please bring your holy ingeniousness to us, we will pray for you every day! Please don't misquote what I say. That was a reply to myself to the question "Will capital ships make a huge impact on how incursions are being ran?" Tactics and strategy is what I do, this place is for feedback not for s* posting. I gave an overall effect on such tactics. Moinge wrote: There is no need of logis at all if you run a full fleet of carrirers. With any experience in incursions with the new mechanics to carriers you'll realize how terrible this would be. Moinge wrote:** The only disadvantage will be the warp speed. Again this is incorrect. Dreads core damage come from being in siege which for you information that would disallow remote assistance. So getting shield and cap would solely come from that pilot, with the nerf coming with the refitting during combat there is no refitting to help the pilot unscrew his/her mistake. As per my last post I explained high threat targets already on field that could do some very serious damage to a triage / siege pilot. There are other obvious flaws that I wish to not make them as obvious as they are now. I recommend that you try some private theory crafting to form your own informed feedback so it's unbiased. The first on was a joke, don't take it to serious ;-) What exactly is terrible about flying without logis if the carriers can solo tank the sites? the only disadvantage is warp speed as i stated. there is nothing more because i never said something about using dreads. would you read correctly you'd see that i always spoke about carrier and that i also stated that dreads are uselsess because of their siege. As it is now you don't get a weapons timer when shooting NPC's so you can still refit on the fly after the changes. If you die in a carrier fleet to incursion rats you did more than a single mistake. i take the stats as they are now with the known changes that are coming. with these facts carriers lose EHP but the local tank will not change much. And the best thing at the end: why do you recommend me that i think about the stuff on my own? what do you believe what i did? who do you think you are that you can claim that wihtout knowing it? bring facts and not just some empty phrases.
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 13886	Posted - 2016.04.09 02:18:27 - [107] - Quote The end result will just be big groups locking down low sec incursions for them to farm to the exculsion of every one else. ie the same thing that happens to lvl 5 missions. In null it would just mean "bonus money" every few months as an incursion lands in your area. Since enemies can't cyno in, you will be super safe while you stuff the game with more isk it doesn't need. Incursions would have to be totally reworked (perhaps with wormhole style cap escalations) to make this balanced. Just allowing capitals in as they are now will do nothing but screw the small brave low sec incursion VG running groups and hand a whole lot of wealth to groups that already have lots of caps and super caps. Bad idea.
Martin Vanzyl EVE University Ivy League 14	Posted - 2016.04.09 12:34:16 - [108] - Quote My first thought after reading this was... If you really want to go through with this, leave the current sites/mechanics etc alone. Instead, add a series of brand new sites that spawn in Incursions. You can lore this as Sansha finally getting a clue and adjusting tactics and developing new tech etc in response to advancing capsuleer tech and effectiveness combating him. The new sites will be perfectly doable in subcaps. But the instant you bring a cap through that acceleration gate; a lot more Sansha BS rats spawn and they're perfectly geared towards taking out your capital without FAX logi being on the ball. The payout per pilot of this kind of Escalated Sansha site is therefore proportionally increased by CONCORD in both ISK and LP, to balance Risk/Reward. In addition, you could even have the capital site have a chance to spawn a Sansha Revenant (with appropriate loot) if you bring in enough caps into the site. You could even make HS versions of the new sites that escalate in the presence of Marauders. (Seriously, that hull needs more use breathed into it other than as a super mission runner and gank target)
Rivr Luzade Kenshin. DARKNESS. 2427	Posted - 2016.04.09 19:23:28 - [109] - Quote Martin Vanzyl wrote: My first thought after reading this was... If you really want to go through with this, leave the current sites/mechanics etc alone. Instead, add a series of brand new sites that spawn in Incursions. You can lore this as Sansha finally getting a clue and adjusting tactics and developing new tech etc in response to advancing capsuleer tech and effectiveness combating him. The new sites will be perfectly doable in subcaps. But the instant you bring a cap through that acceleration gate; a lot more Sansha BS rats spawn and they're perfectly geared towards taking out your capital without FAX logi being on the ball. The payout per pilot of this kind of Escalated Sansha site is therefore proportionally increased by CONCORD in both ISK and LP, to balance Risk/Reward. In addition, you could even have the capital site have a chance to spawn a Sansha Revenant (with appropriate loot) if you bring in enough caps into the site. You could even make HS versions of the new sites that escalate in the presence of Marauders. (Seriously, that hull needs more use breathed into it other than as a super mission runner and gank target) That is too much work for CCP. CCP is not interested in doing work these days when it comes to that in order to create more activity. They want easy, quick things that do not require a lot of effort. UI Improvement Collective My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
roy oakes boom boom long time 11	Posted - 2016.04.09 23:48:29 - [110] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Hey folks. We've been talking to some incursion-focused players and the CSM about capital ships and lowsec/nullsec incursions, and we'd like to see what the rest of the community thinks. Thanks to Plaid Rabbit who initially brought up the idea to me and provided his well-reasoned arguments for the concept. With the updates to capital ships coming in the Citadel expansion, it might add some valuable options to low/null incursions if we opened the gated sites up to capital ships. Our initial discussion has indicated that it probably wouldn't be all that overpowered to allow them, and that capitals in fact might not end up being used all that much but that at least opening up the option may allow for some creative experiments and potentially some cool new tactics. We we're calling on all incursion runners for your feedback: do you think it would be a good idea to allow capital ships into lowsec and nullsec incursion sites after the Citadel expansion? I'm very interested to hear what you guys and gals think. As always, I'm especially interested in the reasoning behind your opinions. Thanks! what really needs to be done is capital ship incursions, made for capitals, no sub caps through the gates https://wiki.eveonline.com/?_ga=1.263942732.1175653019.1457937776

camdy1 camdy and Co. inc. 0	Posted - 2016.04.10 02:13:53 - [111] - Quote my thought would be. cap NPC's taking on player cap's as you would need to up scale the hardness level and instead of a mother ship it would be a titan. no cyno's in lowsec they still need to use the gate but in 0.0 they can cyno in though if they try to cyno out the npc's focus their fire on the cyno and make sure the cap fleet still needs logi (what ever the cap version is) and if logi dies they face the same risk of losing their fleet like we do with non cap fleets.
Mars Aspen Watchtower Bible and Tract Society 0	Posted - 2016.04.10 14:47:44 - [112] - Quote Yes, yes and yes.
Sean Crees Sean's Safe Haven 34	Posted - 2016.04.11 05:03:40 - [113] - Quote Don't own a capital, but i do fly incursions pretty much all day every day and I've been an FC for WTM for over 2 years, and now am a T badge for TVP. I think it's a great idea. It can be balanced, just like anything in the game. I think it would open up a lot of options.
Ograst Faluum Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2016.04.11 09:37:51 - [114] - Quote Any thoughts about getting into the drifter incursions? So far everyone had just mentioned the sansha incursions - but maybe this can be a chance to give options to run the harder drifter incursions in some ways/regions
Anthar Thebess 1495	Posted - 2016.04.11 10:11:21 - [115] - Quote Ograst Faluum wrote: Any thoughts about getting into the drifter incursions? So far everyone had just mentioned the sansha incursions - but maybe this can be a chance to give options to run the harder drifter incursions in some ways/regions Well we had drifter incursions burning throne worlds, but no one cared to do them. Higsec incursion runners don't like the risk Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!
Warmonger Simon Trinity Alpha Zero 17	Posted - 2016.04.11 10:33:58 - [116] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Ograst Faluum wrote: Any thoughts about getting into the drifter incursions? So far everyone had just mentioned the sansha incursions - but maybe this can be a chance to give options to run the harder drifter incursions in some ways/regions Well we had drifter incursions burning throne worlds, but no one cared to do them. Higsec incursion runners don't like the risk It's not the risk it's the risk/reward. Drifter incursions are not worth it compared to normal low/null and even hi-sec incursions imo.
Ograst Faluum Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2016.04.11 10:49:40 - [117] - Quote The main thread of the drifter incursions is the heavy incoming alpha damage imo - so with the hitpoints of a capital you should be doing pretty fine compared to the highsec fleet with their battleships - so you only need to ensure that it would be worth it to run the sites with capitals and you'll might get enough pilots willing to risk their capital against drifters
Anthar Thebess 1495	Posted - 2016.04.11 13:57:20 - [118] - Quote Warmonger Simon wrote: Anthar Thebess wrote: Ograst Faluum wrote: Any thoughts about getting into the drifter incursions? So far everyone had just mentioned the sansha incursions - but maybe this can be a chance to give options to run the harder drifter incursions in some ways/regions Well we had drifter incursions burning throne worlds, but no one cared to do them. Higsec incursion runners don't like the risk It's not the risk it's the risk/reward. Drifter incursions are not worth it compared to normal low/null and even hi-sec incursions imo. Risk vs reward then. Reward is to small or risk is to big. Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!
Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 26	Posted - 2016.04.11 17:33:26 - [119] - Quote Moinge wrote: read again please. i mentioned LOCAL tank, not remote reps. EFT says to me that an Archon currently has 80k capacitor. an outuni neut caps out around 3k and has a long cycle. what do 40 or more carries with some outunis? they die horribly. so even if the outuni(s) get out more than one cycle it's not a big deal for the cap of a carrier. a vindicator can do 1.4 to 1.5k m/s. It has to travel nearly 100 km to shoot the tower in a TCRC. As a carrier you warp in and get the fighters on the tower. The fighters are faster than a vindicator and they have more DPS. nothing to add here. In a TPPH the carriers are slower, yes but you can kill everything while traveling to the next gate. Currently incursion Battleships reach the gate long before the spawn is dead. In a NRF it's the same loek the TCRC warp in and let the fighters move. If you fly currently in a battleship the incursions can harm you of course. if you get full stage in some sites and you forget to broadcast for 5 seconds it will be very tough to save you. in some communities you are dead (no names here). in a carrier you problably have enough ehp to survive until the aggro is switching even without repping. I misunderstood your post. Perhaps this will cover it a bit better: The tank doesn't really matters. Most incursion groups don't lose BSs, because they've min-maxed, and found the minimum tank required to survive. Even the imperium incursion group has only lost a handful of battleships over our lifetime in sites. If an incrsion group brings BS or caps, their risk of losing a ship to the rats is still about the same. Caps have a larger margin for error, beacuse their buffer is larger, but a higher cost if you do screw up. I'm sure you can come up with several different ways to tank the rats, and they'll all work quite well. But they will all be in the same, which is basically 0 chance of losing a ship to rats. I agree that the Otunis won't be a massive risk, but they aren't currently a huge risk anyhow. You primary the otunis, and feed cap to the guy who has agro. The risk of stepping out where hostiles can shoot you is much greater then the lower risk from the Otunis. Your argument about the fighters travel time I think is really important. What are their flight times like, post-patch? assuming it's 3k/sec: For VGs: The fighters will have to cover ~50km for most waves, which is 12 seconds before it even applies damage, each wave. So that's about 45 extra seconds of travel time, before damage is applied. That's a very, very long time in VGs, where you're often in site less then 200secs. For HQ TPPHs: Learn to fly TPPHs with a better group. If you're matching the good hisec times, all the rats should be down before you get to the gate. Travel speed will still be your bottleneck. If you're not matching the good hisec site times, then this isn't a problem. For HQ NRFs: The fighters will have to travel ~20s during each wave, before it applies damage, and there are still a fair number of rats. They will have to bounce between the different rats that love to spread out. I think there will be some site speed improvement, but I don't think you'll be able to do it twice as fast or anything dumb like that. For HQ TCRCs: they are already doable in 6 minutes in hisec. The warp times and align times will be big bottlenecks, and the fighters still have to travel 70km to the tower, you still have to have someone burn over to the mtac factory and mtac. You still have to have logi in the right position to rep the mtac'er, and so the fleet can't be right on top of the gate. I think those elements will prevent the site from being done much faster then they are now. Right now there's almost no risk from flying incursions in hisec in BS, heck... even with terrible goons, I think we've only lost a handful of battleships in sites to rats. (We lose them far more often to the gate rats then anything else). Once you get a good group going, the logis can follow lasers and will rep people that forget to broadcast. The baddie normally get chewed out for doing so, and needs some armor reps, but they survive. Most incursion BS have about half their tank in shield, and half in armor. You get reps before you go into armor nearly every time.
Soldarius O C C U P Y Test Alliance Please Ignore 1491	Posted - 2016.04.13 19:22:31 - [120] - Quote I'm fine with it. Capital hunters rejoice! http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3179	Posted - 2016.04.14 00:35:22 - [121] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Well we had drifter incursions burning throne worlds, but no one cared to do them. Higsec incursion runners don't like the risk Outright lie. 2 or 3 groups were running them regularly. Just they took 3-4 hours to close an incursion and they then respawned in as little as 12 hours. So you could go to bed, they could close an incursion, and the new one could have respawned before you logged on the next day. Capitals in Drifter incursions would also have a chance depending on their behaviour of breaking them, if they only fire the DD when their overshield breaks it becomes trivial to run them at that point, even if CCP fixed them 100% ignoring logi.
Shalmon Aliatus Bluestar Enterprises The Craftsmen 18	Posted - 2016.04.16 12:33:18 - [122] - Quote Open the gates for capitals, wait a couple weeks, see if players do something super-op with capitals you CCP guys had no idea that it was even possible, if yes balance or close the gates again. Don't know how acceleration gates work exactly, but my guess is it is a "can use"-list. Think capitals may be to slow for the sites where you have to travel between gates (and you have to manage siege timers as well). FAX might be good in sites with a single room, if you can manage to tank the NPCs :)

CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 14120	Posted - 2016.04.17 15:11:49 - [123] - Quote Hey everyone. Thanks for the feedback. We agree with those of you who are advocating a "trial period" for capitals in incursions. In the Citadel expansion we will be adjusting gate restrictions to allow all capital ships into Incursion sites and we will be watching closely to see how this new access is used. Since we know that it takes a while for new tactics to develop, we have set a target for the end of 2016 to do a full review of how capitals in incursions are doing, including a call for more player feedback at that time. Of course if something exploitable comes up between now and then we'll always be on hand to adjust things sooner. Thanks! Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/

Pryce Caesar Evil Young Flesh 67	Posted - 2016.04.17 16:07:08 - [124] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Hey everyone. Thanks for the feedback. We agree with those of you who are advocating a "trial period" for capitals in incursions. In the Citadel expansion we will be adjusting gate restrictions to allow all capital ships into Incursion sites and we will be watching closely to see how this new access is used. Since we know that it takes a while for new tactics to develop, we have set a target for the end of 2016 to do a full review of how capitals in incursions are doing, including a call for more player feedback at that time. Of course if something exploitable comes up between now and then we'll always be on hand to adjust things sooner. Thanks! If Gates are adjusted for all Capital ships to enter Incursions, does that include Titans and other Supercarriers? I am just wondering, since the Revenant, while being a Supercapital itself, would not last long if player fleets were to field a Supercarrier or a Titan at that HQ. It makes me wonder if this will lead to adjustments in the spawn of Sansha Incursion NPCs, or even an introduction of a new class of Sansha ships to counter the new Capital ship presence in Incursions.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1227	Posted - 2016.04.17 18:00:23 - [125] - Quote maybe expand this trial period to capitals in all pve, see if the capital changes fix all the broken capital pve already going on
Alex Lenin Providing of the first medical aid SOLAR FLEET 3	Posted - 2016.04.17 18:02:53 - [126] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Hey everyone. Thanks for the feedback. We agree with those of you who are advocating a "trial period" for capitals in incursions. In the Citadel expansion we will be adjusting gate restrictions to allow all capital ships into Incursion sites and we will be watching closely to see how this new access is used. Since we know that it takes a while for new tactics to develop, we have set a target for the end of 2016 to do a full review of how capitals in incursions are doing, including a call for more player feedback at that time. Of course if something exploitable comes up between now and then we'll always be on hand to adjust things sooner. Thanks! Will be capitals triggered some sort of cap-escolation?
Ray P State Protectorate Caldari State 15	Posted - 2016.04.17 18:53:37 - [127] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Hey everyone. Thanks for the feedback. We agree with those of you who are advocating a "trial period" for capitals in incursions. In the Citadel expansion we will be adjusting gate restrictions to allow all capital ships into Incursion sites and we will be watching closely to see how this new access is used. Since we know that it takes a while for new tactics to develop, we have set a target for the end of 2016 to do a full review of how capitals in incursions are doing, including a call for more player feedback at that time. Of course if something exploitable comes up between now and then we'll always be on hand to adjust things sooner. Thanks! Make the trial "period" open ended and make it clear from the start that this will be kept under review and may be changed at any time in the future to head off the inevitable nerd rage that will inevitably come when this inevitably leads to incusrions being farmed by nulsec scum lords for mountains of isk.
Pryce Caesar Evil Young Flesh 67	Posted - 2016.04.18 01:21:10 - [128] - Quote Ray P wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Hey everyone. Thanks for the feedback. We agree with those of you who are advocating a "trial period" for capitals in incursions. In the Citadel expansion we will be adjusting gate restrictions to allow all capital ships into Incursion sites and we will be watching closely to see how this new access is used. Since we know that it takes a while for new tactics to develop, we have set a target for the end of 2016 to do a full review of how capitals in incursions are doing, including a call for more player feedback at that time. Of course if something exploitable comes up between now and then we'll always be on hand to adjust things sooner. Thanks! Make the trial "period" open ended and make it clear from the start that this will be kept under review and may be changed at any time in the future to head off the inevitable nerd rage that will inevitably come when this inevitably leads to incusrions being farmed by nulsec scum lords for mountains of isk. Aren't there groups in High-Sec that already farm the Incursions? I ran with a fleet for one Incursion in Null-Sec, and they had the science of Incursion-running down to a T. Everything was like clock-work, with little to no trouble. So, too late on "nullsec scum lords" farming for ISK with Incursions.
Mermann Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2016.04.18 15:36:03 - [129] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Hey everyone. Thanks for the feedback. We agree with those of you who are advocating a "trial period" for capitals in incursions. In the Citadel expansion we will be adjusting gate restrictions to allow all capital ships into Incursion sites and we will be watching closely to see how this new access is used. Since we know that it takes a while for new tactics to develop, we have set a target for the end of 2016 to do a full review of how capitals in incursions are doing, including a call for more player feedback at that time. Of course if something exploitable comes up between now and then we'll always be on hand to adjust things sooner. Thanks! this is great News!!!! Fozzie, is there any chance this can be opened on SISI before citadel expansion?? would be nice to get the theorycrafting started asap.
Hopelesshobo Tactical Nuclear Penguin's 591	Posted - 2016.04.18 17:18:33 - [130] - Quote I know this is a bit off topic, but is there any chance of changing the Lyavite requirement from NMCs to be changed to a drop off the last Romi alive in each wave, much like the civies from OCF? VGs are the only site that forces you to space truck a large volume of material around to run sites efficiently. Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

Super Veliz Team Tumba POS 3	Posted - 2016.04.18 18:25:50 - [131] - Quote Does this mean caps will be allowed in high sec?
Zhilia Mann Tide Way Out Productions 2537	Posted - 2016.04.18 18:48:14 - [132] - Quote Super Veliz wrote: Does this mean caps will be allowed in high sec? What? Of course not.
Plaid Rabbit Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 27	Posted - 2016.04.19 00:08:30 - [133] - Quote Humm, will we see the veldnaught in an incursion?

CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 14125	Posted - 2016.04.19 11:22:49 - [134] - Quote Mermann wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Hey everyone. Thanks for the feedback. We agree with those of you who are advocating a "trial period" for capitals in incursions. In the Citadel expansion we will be adjusting gate restrictions to allow all capital ships into Incursion sites and we will be watching closely to see how this new access is used. Since we know that it takes a while for new tactics to develop, we have set a target for the end of 2016 to do a full review of how capitals in incursions are doing, including a call for more player feedback at that time. Of course if something exploitable comes up between now and then we'll always be on hand to adjust things sooner. Thanks! this is great News!!!! Fozzie, is there any chance this can be opened on SISI before citadel expansion?? would be nice to get the theorycrafting started asap. Yup the restrictions are now removed on SISI so feel free to start testing whenever you wish. Thanks! Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/

Jeanette Oswald Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2016.04.19 18:09:18 - [135] - Quote lol. Dunno why everyone is whining about the PVE aspect. I can see a lot more of my dudes getting hyped about killing incursion runners when they know caps are involved. AKA juicy slow targets. Also they may be able to cyno out, but that also includes keeping a cyno close, that can be scouted. Either sitting on station waiting to get jiggled, or near a temp POS, which is also assets brought in, that can be killed. This all sounds pretty awesome to me, and I dont even care about incursions.
Mara Tessidar Hole Violence Goonswarm Federation 1186	Posted - 2016.04.19 18:11:10 - [136] - Quote Good thing you remembered to buff incursions
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Mercenary Coalition 3014	Posted - 2016.04.19 19:01:02 - [137] - Quote Ray P wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Hey everyone. Thanks for the feedback. We agree with those of you who are advocating a "trial period" for capitals in incursions. In the Citadel expansion we will be adjusting gate restrictions to allow all capital ships into Incursion sites and we will be watching closely to see how this new access is used. Since we know that it takes a while for new tactics to develop, we have set a target for the end of 2016 to do a full review of how capitals in incursions are doing, including a call for more player feedback at that time. Of course if something exploitable comes up between now and then we'll always be on hand to adjust things sooner. Thanks! Make the trial "period" open ended and make it clear from the start that this will be kept under review and may be changed at any time in the future to head off the inevitable nerd rage that will inevitably come when this inevitably leads to incusrions being farmed by nulsec scum lords for mountains of isk. As opposed to highsec scum lords farming day in and day out?
Ligraph Metallurgy Incorporated 12	Posted - 2016.04.20 20:08:08 - [138] - Quote Alex Lenin wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Hey everyone. Thanks for the feedback. We agree with those of you who are advocating a "trial period" for capitals in incursions. In the Citadel expansion we will be adjusting gate restrictions to allow all capital ships into Incursion sites and we will be watching closely to see how this new access is used. Since we know that it takes a while for new tactics to develop, we have set a target for the end of 2016 to do a full review of how capitals in incursions are doing, including a call for more player feedback at that time. Of course if something exploitable comes up between now and then we'll always be on hand to adjust things sooner. Thanks! Will be capitals triggered some sort of cap-escolation? Now that would be neat... Especially if it is persistent (like the new Drifter boss). Fuzzy cloaking Wormhole Stabilizer citadels Cloaky Fleet Transport
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Mercenary Coalition 3016	Posted - 2016.04.21 18:18:49 - [139] - Quote Would the addition of faction caps (looking at you serpentis dread) have any implications for incursions?
Hopelesshobo Tactical Nuclear Penguin's 591	Posted - 2016.04.22 02:06:03 - [140] - Quote Rowells wrote: Would the addition of faction caps (looking at you serpentis dread) have any implications for incursions? A dread with a web bonus Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

Pryce Caesar Cloak and Daggers Fidelas Constans 83	Posted - 2016.04.22 02:21:50 - [141] - Quote Hopelesshobo wrote: Rowells wrote: Would the addition of faction caps (looking at you serpentis dread) have any implications for incursions? A dread with a web bonus Which may be coming true, given a future update involves Serpentis Capitals being introduced. Capitals...Of all classes.
Maetel Lithium Undead Dragons Dragon Knights Inc 10	Posted - 2016.05.19 22:41:53 - [142] - Quote Could we get Incursion sites designed with Capital on Capital fights?
Lugh Crow-Slave 2587	Posted - 2016.05.21 07:50:01 - [143] - Quote Pryce Caesar wrote: Hopelesshobo wrote: Rowells wrote: Would the addition of faction caps (looking at you serpentis dread) have any implications for incursions? A dread with a web bonus Which may be coming true, given a future update involves Serpentis Capitals being introduced. Capitals...Of all classes. that are supposed to be as rare as a rev.... Citadel worm hole tax
Malcaz Corostatos 45	Posted - 2016.05.27 01:28:42 - [144] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: ... Thanks to Plaid Rabbit who initially brought up the idea to me and provided his well-reasoned arguments for the concept... Devs should be checked for conflicts of interest and social engineering when proposing such ideas that would involve farming massive amounts of isk. Of course that is a pipe dream. There are a few alliances who have the infrastructure to make farming incursions with supercaps risk-free PvP-wise. The alliances that are known to have a lot of developers come to mind.
Lugh Crow-Slave 2644	Posted - 2016.05.27 11:08:45 - [145] - Quote a few seconds really? takes longer than that to lock. hyperbole can help make a point but go to far and no one will take you seriously Citadel worm hole tax
Malcaz Corostatos 45	Posted - 2016.05.27 11:30:39 - [146] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: a few seconds really? takes longer than that to lock. hyperbole can help make a point but go to far and no one will take you seriously Sensor boosters, AOE weapons, among other things? Not too hard to think of ways to get around that. I'm not just talking about 3 seconds, but perhaps 30 seconds. Doing some of the sites in only a handful of seconds is not unthinkable. For example there is one where all you have to do is destroy a structure. If you are in a high damage capital ship that thing is popped in a few seconds with just XL guns especially if you are multiboxing.
Ereilian Tritanium Industries and Technology Executive Outcomes 153	Posted - 2016.05.29 16:55:10 - [147] - Quote Malcaz wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: a few seconds really? takes longer than that to lock. hyperbole can help make a point but go to far and no one will take you seriously Sensor boosters, AOE weapons, among other things? Not too hard to think of ways to get around that. I'm not just talking about 3 seconds, but perhaps 30 seconds. Doing some of the sites in only a handful of seconds is not unthinkable. For example there is one where all you have to do is destroy a structure. If you are in a high damage capital ship that thing is popped in a few seconds with just XL guns especially if you are multiboxing. The current day "band(s) of developers" will be ready to abuse the **** out of this, and it'll only get fixed once it catches on with others. Your lack of the basic mechanics of incursion sites is pretty telling. In the 2 HQ sites that require a structure bash as you describe it; TPPH - Leading into the tower room are 2 gated rooms with incursion sansha that need destroying. Approx entry to gate burn is 60km. Tower room requires the complete clearing of 3 waves of incursion sansha before the tower becomes lockable. TCRC - While this is a straight warp to tower room, there is a mechanic in place that would need someone to ferry over large items (approx 15km) from a spawn tower to the battle tower. If this mechanic is NOT done properly the battle tower self reps completely every 2-3 second. The mechanic is on a 2 minute spawn timer from the point the first ship enters the site. It is NOT possible to do any of the HQ level sites in 30 seconds regardless of how much DPS you bring. There are no AOE weapons that cover a large enough area to catch both the DPS and Sniper spawn points. Do yourself a favor and get educated before spouting crap.
Pryce Caesar Cloak and Daggers Fidelas Constans 83	Posted - 2016.05.30 17:41:09 - [148] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Pryce Caesar wrote: Hopelesshobo wrote: Rowells wrote: Would the addition of faction caps (looking at you serpentis dread) have any implications for incursions? A dread with a web bonus Which may be coming true, given a future update involves Serpentis Capitals being introduced. Capitals...Of all classes. that are supposed to be as rare as a rev.... Actually, I think the rarity of Capital spawns is between Commanders and Officers. Though I haven't checked the rarity of those spawns in asteroid belts myself. The upcoming Serpentis ships, on the other hand, are part of an event that will make them the first wave of Pirate Capitals available to players. I think it might be the supercarrier or Titan bp that are as rare as the rev.
Kaning Olacar Alcoholocaust. Test Alliance Please Ignore 3	Posted - 2016.06.19 18:17:09 - [149] - Quote Just putting in my two cents for what little it is worth....allowing capitals into incursions comes with two problems.....one being that you really only need like 4-5 pilots for HQ sites at that point......and two allowing capitals to only take those specific acceleration gates is also silly.....all or nothing as it were
Lugh Crow-Slave 2831	Posted - 2016.06.20 09:02:50 - [150] - Quote Pryce Caesar wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Pryce Caesar wrote: Hopelesshobo wrote: Rowells wrote: Would the addition of faction caps (looking at you serpentis dread) have any implications for incursions? A dread with a web bonus Which may be coming true, given a future update involves Serpentis Capitals being introduced. Capitals...Of all classes. that are supposed to be as rare as a rev.... Actually, I think the rarity of Capital spawns is between Commanders and Officers. Though I haven't checked the rarity of those spawns in asteroid belts myself. The upcoming Serpentis ships, on the other hand, are part of an event that will make them the first wave of Pirate Capitals available to players. I think it might be the supercarrier or Titan bp that are as rare as the rev. i was talking about the player ships ccp just made a blanket statement saying the BPCs would be about as common as the revs. they did not make any other distinction. i would like to see them just rare enough to put them at about the 7-10b mark making them a middle ground between capitals and supers but i doubt it will happen Citadel worm hole tax

iHades Kundalinis National Protection And Security 0	Posted - 2016.06.21 19:09:26 - [151] - Quote There is a bug that doesn't let capitals go throw the second and third gate of TPPH site. probably the person that did the changes never knew that other 2 gates exist and he didn't consider asking the people that run these sites about feedback. a proper fleet with sub caps can finish these sites alot faster instead of using capitals special after considering that capitals have to burn throw 3 gates on tpph ( the gates are bugged right now and a petition about it is for weeks but have been ignored ) also you cant doomsday the mothership show it doesn't worth to take titans even on the mom site. And no they cant track the frigs and other cruisers they only thing they could shoot was the mothership. > *need more nightmares*
PopplerRo 22	Posted - 2016.06.26 13:33:13 - [152] - Quote iHades wrote: ... also you cant doomsday the mothership show it doesn't worth to take titans even on the mom site. And no they cant track the frigs and other cruisers they only thing they could shoot was the mothership. Odd. They have no issue hitting the bombers or the Kundalini/Uroborus. With caps on grid you don't need to shoot anything else
Nya Kittenheart Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 22	Posted - 2016.07.18 00:07:59 - [153] - Quote Fozzie dont be lazy design new specifics incursion site for capital and/or supercapital hulls.Trying to balance a subcap content to a capital environment seems much more works to me ...And incursion are probably more designed to be done in a group and i m fairly sure VG in carrier should be soloable.But i like the idea to have more capitals in space ... Btw could we have incursions for every pirates races with new sites ,because that seems very sexy to me way much more than some random serpentis event .Sry about the last one i had to go under the belt.
Elliniel Anat'al'Ardon Hallowed Antiquity 3	Posted - 2016.08.22 08:13:08 - [154] - Quote "I don't see PL and Goons cooperating on anything right now." Newsflash. PL sets Goons blue. I was going to comment on Plaid Rabbits idiotic comment how you can cloak a hictor off the gate at 30km and point the last ship. I presume the last ship/straggler is just going to sit there doing nothing during the 20 seconds of your cloak-targeting-timer cooldown period right?
TigerXtrm KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1581	Posted - 2016.08.23 10:31:36 - [155] - Quote Elliniel Anat'al'Ardon wrote: "I don't see PL and Goons cooperating on anything right now." Newsflash. PL sets Goons blue. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things! My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor 5884	Posted - 2016.08.23 12:48:14 - [156] - Quote At the very least, warping capitals into incursion sites should cause the NPCs to escalate with capitals or anti-capital defences of their own. You've already got plenty of data about how the folks in Anoikis trivialise the PVE content there. Why do you need to ask the Incursion community about how capitals will trivialise this PVE content? They wouldn't be asking for it if they didn't already have ideas on how to exploit it. No doubt they have plans for instalocking FAX, carriers specifically tuned for each encounter, and titan fleets for quickly neutralising the mothership, with no concern for the waves of torpedoes. Next they'll be asking for supercap smart bombs. Day 0 Advice for New Players
Astrid Farnsworth Broke and Famous 4	Posted - 2016.08.25 04:31:03 - [157] - Quote Why dont fix asault mechanics before this? If its harder to run why you do. Improve the pay out? Or do something with it since seems like no one run them. The carriers in inc are great but they are big target thats why groups dont use them in incs. "Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics." - Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC (Commandant of the Marine Corps) noted in 1980strong text
Anthar Thebess 1645	Posted - 2016.09.30 09:27:53 - [158] - Quote Introduce more Sansha Capital modules, and let nullsec incursion drop BPC for those. Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!
Nex Killer Arbiters of the Void Circle-Of-Two 104	Posted - 2016.12.25 06:33:35 - [159] - Quote Sooo any news about this? :o
ugh zug Amok. Goonswarm Federation 122	Posted - 2017.01.13 11:04:28 - [160] - Quote capital escalations for increased difficulty with improved payout to make it worth it. it's boring unless you get jumped, and dealing with the speed of capital ships is a fairly big issue when looking at isk per hour and the risks involved. Want me to shut up? Remove content from my post,1B. Remove my content from a thread I have started 2B.



Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.