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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7465
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Posted - 2016.04.09 14:25:44 -
[61] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:So where is the line between game and real life. I'm guessing if you guys haven't crossed it by launching personal attacks at Mittani, not on his game character but directly at him, his career choices, his image, etc, then posting up something as readily available as an IP address is unlikely to be crossing it.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
943
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Posted - 2016.04.09 14:27:25 -
[62] - Quote
Geronimo McVain wrote:I have no problems with identifying some traitor while both are using out of game programs but posting the IP was simply wrong!
Yes it was. Then again - it wasn't exactly public. It's still just communication within a group with restricted access. I'm not saying broadcasting it to the alliance was the right thing to do, also because it doesn't serve a purpose - to me only the log for the text file he opened from reddit doesn't prove anything on it's own.
I think this was mainly oversight on the directors part. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7465
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Posted - 2016.04.09 14:30:43 -
[63] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:I know enough from my days protecting servers from Chinese hackers Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:If someone gets your IP number
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7465
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Posted - 2016.04.09 14:49:07 -
[64] - Quote
Geronimo McVain wrote:Well In Europe your IP counts as a personal info. He had every right to do what he did, legally, but in Germany posting his IP would be a crime. Goonswarm isn't a business so there are no business infos. I have no problems with identifying some traitor while both are using out of game programs but posting the IP was simply wrong! BTW: I think it's really bad style to post private logs. As the name tells you, they are not for the public without both sides accepting it. Actually, even in Europe an IP address on it's own is not classed as personal information. Also if you want to get that deep into the legality, taking jabber pings from a protected network and posting them on the internet without permission of the networks owner is also illegal, even if they contain as mundane content as game information.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Salt Foambreaker
Greedy Pirates
23
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Posted - 2016.04.09 15:13:52 -
[65] - Quote
Bedreddin wrote:Personally I think that there should be consequence for using such means. It's outside the boundaries of the games design. If the aim of the game was to blur the lines to that degree it would have been designed into the mechanics.
I have to agree, I think the entire meta game is a slippery sloop.
What's next, a DOS attack on enemy IP addresses during fleet battles?
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
943
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Posted - 2016.04.09 15:36:18 -
[66] - Quote
Salt Foambreaker wrote:I have to agree, I think the entire meta game is a slippery sloop.
What's next, a DOS attack on enemy IP addresses during fleet battles?
Same as that Wolfhammer dude, you are taking very big leaps. There is a difference between logging IP addresses to identify and remove security issues from your own IT infrastructure and actually attacking that IP. The former is just a normal everyday occurance and a necessity for most online services, the latter is a crime.
And yes, the IP address should not have been broadcast to the alliance. But again - it also should not have gotten leaked to the public from there.
So, to all you whiteknights, if you feel you need to criticize Twizzlespark for making the IP address known to the alliance, you need to criticize the guys leaking from there and Lemba for making private conversations public in the first place as well, because all of that is morally questionable at best.
And after all - Lemba did know this would happen, if he engaged in this activity outside of the confines of the game. He did it nonetheless. I wouldn't be surprised if he himself didn't even have a problem with this. So cut the hypocrisy and defending people who don't need to be defended.
And to the GRR GONS HAT GONS crowd: Please have a look at your "allies" and think twice about how Goons are supposed to be any worse. |
W33b3l
The Scope Gallente Federation
76
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Posted - 2016.04.09 15:39:20 -
[67] - Quote
Just to be clear. The spy in question had two different Reddit accounts. One as the main and one as the spy. He fell for the click bait with both accounts and the ip addys where matched?
Not sure how you know wich two accounts where using the same ip address that popped up twice in both lists of all the people who clicked on it, kind of courioise for curiosities sake, but if that's what happened it was completely out of game. Asking for peoples up addresses in game or hacking the game server would be another story.
Its up to CCP I suppose to decide if that's ok or not. All they would have to do is add it to the EULA that you agree not to do it. Would be impossible to trace if you where quiet about it though. Shady as hell sure, but not against the EULA.
Ddos attacks on known people to lag out there client however, if happening, need to be dealt with via the ban hammer. |
Cherril
University of Caille Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2016.04.09 15:41:28 -
[68] - Quote
Salt Foambreaker wrote:Bedreddin wrote:Personally I think that there should be consequence for using such means. It's outside the boundaries of the games design. If the aim of the game was to blur the lines to that degree it would have been designed into the mechanics. I have to agree, I think the entire meta game is a slippery sloop. What's next, a DOS attack on enemy IP addresses during fleet battles?
uh... even in my 0.01 true sec country (D)DOS is illegal.. we have one cute "expert" in law-enforcement services trying to put botnets that attacked several government agencies in jail. Not a bit of progress though.
I've read The Mittani's declarations and i'm pretty sure Imperium will fight well and dirty with attackers, but with traitors they'll be merciless. If you are not Imperium traitor you'll safe. If you are - i do not want to know how far Imperium would go to "punish" you.
understand me well - i totally condemn Imperium strategies and tactics to ruin everyone else's game. Apparently CCP approves that so either adapt, or leave - there are alternatives. |
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
943
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Posted - 2016.04.09 15:50:58 -
[69] - Quote
W33b3l wrote:Just to be clear. The spy in question had two different Reddit accounts. One as the main and one as the spy. He fell for the click bait with both accounts and the ip addys where matched?
Not sure how you know wich two accounts where using the same ip address that popped up twice in both lists of all the people who clicked on it, kind of courioise for curiosities sake, but if that's what happened it was completely out of game. Asking for peoples up addresses in game or hacking the game server would be another story.
Its up to CCP I suppose to decide if that's ok or not. All they would have to do is add it to the EULA that you agree not to do it. Would be impossible to trace if you where quiet about it though. Shady as hell sure, but not against the EULA.
Ddos attacks on known people to lag out there client however, if happening, need to be dealt with via the ban hammer.
The leaker account on reddit got sent a link to a supposedly interesting document on the goonfleet server. The IP address accessing said document afterwards could be identified as the one belonging to a member registered on the goonfleet webservices. So, you are right - this all happened outside of the game. The logs the spy was leaking were acquired outside of the game (Goonfleet Jabber, mainly), he made them public outside of the game (reddit) and he was identified outside of the game. No hacking involved, just normal IT work.
The only thing that happened inside the game was, that a director involved in this case made the mistake to send that log to his Alliance, which may be in violation of the ToS/EULA (too lazy to look up if it is) and may have personal consequences for him.
So, most of the drama happened outside of the game and should be of no concern for both the Eve community and CCP.
The whole talk about hacking and DDoS attacks is a complete grr-goons-hyperbole, because nothing of that sort happened. |
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
722
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Posted - 2016.04.09 16:16:08 -
[70] - Quote
CCP, please protect our spies from the consequences of their actions. It's so mean to call them out by finding their real identities!
For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/
Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
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Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
329
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Posted - 2016.04.09 16:36:11 -
[71] - Quote
Look at the comments above..the fact that it's happened out of the game means lines have been crossed, or at the best blurred.
It seems to me that it's a dangerous road to tread. |
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
722
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Posted - 2016.04.09 16:43:31 -
[72] - Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_CyrpCnksM&nohtml5=False
For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/
Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
943
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 16:47:59 -
[73] - Quote
Drago Shouna wrote:Look at the comments above..the fact that it's happened out of the game means lines have been crossed, or at the best blurred.
It seems to me that it's a dangerous road to tread.
By that logic, forums, Teamspeak/Mumble/Ventrilo, e-mails and instant messengers cross the line, as people use those to talk about and coordinate their actions in the game, outside of the game. In years past, players have been scammed on voice comms outside of the game, were made to sing on Teamspeak in order to save their ships, were alliances forged and destroyed outside of the game. It's what people tend to call the "Metagame" and it's what many people genuinely love about Eve. |
W33b3l
The Scope Gallente Federation
76
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Posted - 2016.04.09 16:55:06 -
[74] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:W33b3l wrote:Just to be clear. The spy in question had two different Reddit accounts. One as the main and one as the spy. He fell for the click bait with both accounts and the ip addys where matched?
Not sure how you know wich two accounts where using the same ip address that popped up twice in both lists of all the people who clicked on it, kind of courioise for curiosities sake, but if that's what happened it was completely out of game. Asking for peoples up addresses in game or hacking the game server would be another story.
Its up to CCP I suppose to decide if that's ok or not. All they would have to do is add it to the EULA that you agree not to do it. Would be impossible to trace if you where quiet about it though. Shady as hell sure, but not against the EULA.
Ddos attacks on known people to lag out there client however, if happening, need to be dealt with via the ban hammer. The leaker account on reddit got sent a link to a supposedly interesting document on the goonfleet server. The IP address accessing said document afterwards could be identified as the one belonging to a member registered on the goonfleet webservices. So, you are right - this all happened outside of the game. The logs the spy was leaking were acquired outside of the game (Goonfleet Jabber, mainly), he made them public outside of the game (reddit) and he was identified outside of the game. No hacking involved, just normal IT work. The only thing that happened inside the game was, that a director involved in this case made the mistake to send that log to his Alliance, which may be in violation of the ToS/EULA (too lazy to look up if it is) and may have personal consequences for him. So, most of the drama happened outside of the game and should be of no concern for both the Eve community and CCP. The whole talk about hacking and DDoS attacks is a complete grr-goons-hyperbole, because nothing of that sort happened.
Oh so a private message was sent to someone already suspected so you knew it was that person who owned the IP. Gotcha, that fills in some blanks for me. If anything that would be Reddit who would be responsible for letting it happen not CCP. Although nothing illegal was done with the information so why would they care. I'm really surprised the person was lax enough to get caught that way.
I understand why people don't like it though. Since its a game it would be nice if everything we do stays in game for balance and content reasons. Problem is that we already use more info out of game then we do in game like EFT and DOTLAN for example, so where do you draw the line of what's ok and what isn't. As long as your not using it to attack alts in game for revenge Its not really a problem. Its not like anyone is back tracing client connections from the server. Its good to know people do this type of thing for Intel reasons though.
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
943
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Posted - 2016.04.09 17:04:34 -
[75] - Quote
I think, the main reason this thread exists is people escalating over scary IT words they don't understand.
If it has something to do with IP addresses, it must be hacking, right? |
W33b3l
The Scope Gallente Federation
76
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Posted - 2016.04.09 17:27:38 -
[76] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:I think, the main reason this thread exists is people escalating over scary IT words they don't understand.
If it has something to do with IP addresses, it must be hacking, right?
Those people also think that DDos groups are hackers. Drives me crazy when they call them that.
Every time one of us posts something here our current IP address is logged on the web server. |
Ashterothi
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
376
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Posted - 2016.04.09 18:24:07 -
[77] - Quote
The goons are not CCPs mess, they are ours. We are cleaning them up and we are using tactics that are tolerable (to the extent of my knowledge).
I would much prefer to see this play out, then to see it struck down because the Imperium get taken out by CCP over tactics that have been in use for as long as we have had wars.
Listen to Hydrostatic Podcast for all your Empyrean needs!
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Anke Eyrou
Hades Sisters
65
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Posted - 2016.04.09 18:45:49 -
[78] - Quote
What you have to remember is that wars get real messy and dirty really fast; you do what ever it takes to make sure you win them. GSF have always played the metagame and always will.
I expect to get this post deleted or locked. So much for freedom of expression.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
15044
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Posted - 2016.04.09 18:50:37 -
[79] - Quote
And people wonder why i dont post on reddit.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
943
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Posted - 2016.04.09 18:51:01 -
[80] - Quote
W33b3l wrote:I understand why people don't like it though. Since its a game it would be nice if everything we do stays in game for balance and content reasons. Problem is that we already use more info out of game then we do in game like EFT and DOTLAN for example, so where do you draw the line of what's ok and what isn't
Not only do we use these out of game resources, we need them. Take away all those nifty API tools and websites - EFT, Pyfa, Evemon, Eve-Central as well as Forums, IMs, voice tools and there wouldn't be much left of the game. Almost everything that happens in the game involves out of game communication. Imagine Fleet battles solely using Eve Voice, or several thousand man strong alliances coordinate via ingame mails and bulletins. The tools the game provides do not suffice to do these things.
Now, since we have all this infrastructure outside of the game, people will attack or abuse it, like Lemba did here, and the owners will defend against it.
I actually find this rather nice. It's this whole metagame that makes Eve. On it's own - Eve is an incomplete and pretty ****** game.
And in the end, I'd say no koreans were hurt in the making of this drama. Lemba probably has a different IP by now. |
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Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
329
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Posted - 2016.04.09 19:41:22 -
[81] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Drago Shouna wrote:Look at the comments above..the fact that it's happened out of the game means lines have been crossed, or at the best blurred.
It seems to me that it's a dangerous road to tread. By that logic, forums, Teamspeak/Mumble/Ventrilo, e-mails and instant messengers cross the line, as people use those to talk about and coordinate their actions in the game, outside of the game. In years past, players have been scammed on voice comms outside of the game, were made to sing on Teamspeak in order to save their ships, were alliances forged and destroyed outside of the game. It's what people tend to call the "Metagame" and it's what many people genuinely love about Eve.
And players were banned for it..
Singing logs, or publishing ip addresses, where's the difference?
Call it what you want, it doesn't change what I said. |
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 21:57:42 -
[82] - Quote
Drago Shouna wrote:Neuntausend wrote:Drago Shouna wrote:Look at the comments above..the fact that it's happened out of the game means lines have been crossed, or at the best blurred.
It seems to me that it's a dangerous road to tread. By that logic, forums, Teamspeak/Mumble/Ventrilo, e-mails and instant messengers cross the line, as people use those to talk about and coordinate their actions in the game, outside of the game. In years past, players have been scammed on voice comms outside of the game, were made to sing on Teamspeak in order to save their ships, were alliances forged and destroyed outside of the game. It's what people tend to call the "Metagame" and it's what many people genuinely love about Eve. And players were banned for it.. Singing logs, or publishing ip addresses, where's the difference? Call it what you want, it doesn't change what I said. People were banned over the Bonus Room stupidity, but not because it was out of game but because it was ruled as harassment.
Just because it's out of game does not mean a line has been crossed (which is what you claimed).
Stuff happens outside the game all the time and it's perfectly fine.
CCP Gargant singing for his Legion for example: http://youtu.be/UtItWL6GfSM
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Imalia Bloodlines
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
13
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Posted - 2016.04.09 22:44:19 -
[83] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:OK So this from the Reddit thread is why I tell people "DON'T CLICK ON A DAMNED THING". Quote:This morning, with a cleverly crafted trap, we now have identified the spy. Lemba is the spy. It breaks my heart to say this, but the proof is overwhelming. We sent bait link to the leakerGÇÖs reddit account with a text file hosted from our side. When Lemba logged into the leaker account and clicked on the linkGÇÖs text file and accessed the text file, we found the IP address to match that of LembaGÇÖs. HereGÇÖs the proof. It's more than doxxing/IP risks here. More than some spy being hunted either. In fact, lay that aside. This is something for super pilots and FCs. Roughly 6 years ago I recall a story from another player who described doing some haunting of locals in some nullsec pocket. I don't recall the details except that his target was a Russian corp. Anyway, they claimed they could get him, which he denied. But later during the usual cat and mouse fu that is Eve Online, the connection to the server got a bit funny. Right before it happened the last thing to appear in local in the soon-to-be-frozen up client was "here goes" or something like that. Now I'm no wizard of networks, but I know enough from my days protecting servers from Chinese hackers (seriously, real hackers. In China). If someone gets your IP number, they can run a trace. This is not so much cop stuff. Unless you have Eve installed on a web server they won't get all the way to the end, but they don't need to. They need only know what nodes you are using, which "big switch" you are getting to the Eve server to. It depends on your service. For example, I used to live at a place that had spotty cable internet as it was remote, and I could run a trace from there to my office VPN and see what nodes I was using (helpful to know if your connection is good for an online meeting with streaming video that you want to ensure is OK for it). But at times I used a 4G Wireless system connected to my computer and running the same trace revealed entirely different paths. The 4G account is from an entirely different company. And then..... well there are "services" you can get anonymously which can run a DDOS on just about any address you give them. I don't know any personally, and I won't go beyond this point because IMO I'm on the verge of going from geeksplaining network 101 to game exploit. Basically, the IP number can be used to shut down a connection, something that can be a really bad deal for an FC or super pilot. Only a couple of times over the years I have heard of this happening in Eve. If this "war" results in this kind of activity, not only should those engaging in it be permabanned from the game, but they should also face criminal charges in their home jurisdiction. But in the end, if internet spaceships so srs that people have to resort to these tactics, then suddenly I don't feel like playing this game any more if that's the kind of people who play it. Hopefully CCP takes a good hard look into this matter and other matters like this because there are plenty of sore losers to go around.
Today I was watching stream on twitch by Zarvox Toral, great guy, very down to earth, helps newbies etc...He was running Interceptor fleet.
At one point, they were about to engage caracals and someone DDOS'd his speak service, nobody could hear his order, bunch of ceptors died. I really really can not believe that CCP would tolerate something like this. We are not talking about game any more, this can cause serious damage IRL!!!
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March rabbit
Mosquito Squadron
1731
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Posted - 2016.04.09 23:14:06 -
[84] - Quote
Imalia Bloodlines wrote:At one point, they were about to engage caracals and someone DDOS'd his speak service, nobody could hear his order, bunch of ceptors died. I really really can not believe that CCP would tolerate something like this. We are not talking about game any more, this can cause serious damage IRL!!! TBH it does not look like anyone could really do DDoS against bunch of interceptors.... You sure it was not some 'natural' internet problem?
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Yael Capra Nubiana
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2016.04.09 23:51:39 -
[85] - Quote
That's why i love EVE.
Spies, spyhunters, traitors, lies, heroes ... and tears.
Forget Shakespeare, forget the Nibelungenlied, forgett the clash of civilizations, forget all that, just look at EVE.
A big War, a clash between two giant powers is going on, and we will got alot similary things during the next months.
Remember Churchill said on May 13. 1940: ".... I would say to the House as I said to those who have joined this government: I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat. We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many, many long months of struggle and of suffering. .... You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word: Victory. Victory at all costsGÇöVictory in spite of all terrorGÇöVictory, however long and hard the road may be, for without victory there is no survival.
Who will win?
Plexing is pure self en-slavement.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
15044
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Posted - 2016.04.10 01:46:20 -
[86] - Quote
Yael Capra Nubiana wrote: Who will win?
better question , who will give a **** if people are getting doxed over it.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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d0cTeR9
House of the Dead Monkey SpaceMonkey's Alliance
317
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Posted - 2016.04.10 01:51:48 -
[87] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Is that what EVE Online is about? This isn't the first time certain members of this group have been involved in these tactics...but it should be their last.
Where is the limit? None apparently. Every time we go out, we have our TS server nuked, our forum attacked, the list goes on. Most third party services become unusable. It's like that every time when dealing with certain large entities in the game.
Been around since the beginning.
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Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
176
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Posted - 2016.04.10 02:30:34 -
[88] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Yael Capra Nubiana wrote: Who will win?
better question , who will give a **** if people are getting doxed over it. No one is getting doxxed. |
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri
New Order Logistics CODE.
427
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Posted - 2016.04.10 08:52:03 -
[89] - Quote
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Yael Capra Nubiana wrote: Who will win?
better question , who will give a **** if people are getting doxed over it. No one is getting doxxed.
Yet. |
Imalia Bloodlines
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
13
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Posted - 2016.04.10 09:08:07 -
[90] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Imalia Bloodlines wrote:At one point, they were about to engage caracals and someone DDOS'd his speak service, nobody could hear his order, bunch of ceptors died. I really really can not believe that CCP would tolerate something like this. We are not talking about game any more, this can cause serious damage IRL!!! TBH it does not look like anyone could really do DDoS against bunch of interceptors.... You sure it was not some 'natural' internet problem?
No everything was working fine except when he told them to jump the gate, suddenly nobody could hear him. Then he fleet warped a few player while the rest was 1 system behind. Then they started to jump 1 by 1 and die because nobody could hear him. Only at that one point, stream was running for 6 hours without any problems except for that instance. |
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