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Mario Putzo
1623
   |
Posted - 2016.04.09 03:37:07 -
[1] - Quote
Tonight some interesting leaks were made, dank if you will, from Goon Swarm directorate. Now I am sure you read Reddit and saw the post, I am sure if you didn't any of the secondary posters (who redacted sensitive information) would be willing to provide you the raw deets. Now we know this isn't the first time Goon Swarm has used IP tracking to make decisions in the game, we know its not the first time they have used it to obtain information about subscribers to your game.
So where is the line between game and real life. Here is a directorate of one of the largest groups in the game congratulating IP tracing to out one of their members. Is there a line? should people who condone underhanded out of game, real world espionage not be given some infraction?
Anyhow here is the leak for you all.
(10:35:28 PM) directorbot: LOST ANOTHER TRAITOR TO GOONSWARM:
Traitor From: Twizzlespark Celes Sent: 2016.04.09 02:34 To: Goonswarm Federation,
DOKDO, Today I come before you with a terrible news. IGÇÖll keep it brief. GSF has been hunting for Director level spy, who has been getting more and more bold recently. This morning, with a cleverly crafted trap, we now have identified the spy. Lemba is the spy. It breaks my heart to say this, but the proof is overwhelming. We sent bait link to the leakerGÇÖs reddit account with a text file hosted from our side. When Lemba logged into the leaker account and clicked on the linkGÇÖs text file and accessed the text file, we found the IP address to match that of LembaGÇÖs. HereGÇÖs the proof.
-USER's Computer/IP information-
It disappoints me greatly to face up to the truth, but the proof is overwhelming. And however terrible the truth may be, DOKDO must go on. I have created corporation GÇ£IGÇÖm Fine and You arenGÇÖtGÇ¥[D0KDO] and we are going to move there. We will have full support of Goonswarm Federation in the process and we will operate just as we have, sans Lemba. If you have supercapital in the corporation, keep it LOGGED OFF until it is safe for us to move them. You will bounce like a ping pong ball and will soon see gazillion supers and dreads on your head. We will arrange a safe transfer for your supers. Keep them LOGGED OFF. Apply to the new corporation with your Full API / verification key, and I will accept you shortly. The new corp is going to be in GSF in 24hours. DonGÇÖt log in until we are in GSF when in new corp
ILLUM LEAK:
(9:28:52 PM) kilgarth: !promote twizzlespark_celes
(9:28:52 PM) Dabigredbot: Twizzlespark Celes has been promoted, and sent an introductory message.
(9:31:05 PM) twizzlespark_celes: Lemba i'm disappointed
(9:31:12 PM) twizzlespark_celes: Sad that this happened, and **** you
(9:31:59 PM) twizzlespark_celes: I asked mirana to let the spy know that twizzlespark said **** you, didn't know that i would be gifted the chance to do so face-to-face
(9:32:05 PM) veldruk_grimm: look, its twizzlespark_celes
(9:32:08 PM) twizzlespark_celes: but here we are.
(9:32:21 PM) querns@laptop: :munch:
(9:32:28 PM) kyiera: :stare:
(9:32:31 PM) the_mittani: https://www.reddit.com/user/illumittanileaks your posting is **** lemba
(9:32:52 PM) veldruk_grimm: 2 DOKDO's? We are screwed
(9:32:59 PM) kilgarth: !ban lemba
(9:33:00 PM) Innominate: one less shortly
(9:33:05 PM) veldruk_grimm: toot
(9:33:06 PM) Dabigredbot: Lemba has been banned.
(9:33:14 PM) querns@laptop: :shobonissar:
(9:33:19 PM) kilgarth: BANG BANG *****
(9:33:25 PM) veldruk_grimm: GET SOME
~~~ This was a broadcast from the_mittani to all at 2016-04-09 02:35:28.672968 EVE ~~~
Is that what EVE Online is about? This isn't the first time certain members of this group have been involved in these tactics...but it should be their last. |
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
722
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 03:39:28 -
[2] - Quote
There are no limits to counter-intelligence.
Confirming that digi also wins eve. And doesn't even need an account to do his work.
If you spy on us, he will find you, one way or another.
CCP has no jurisdiction over what we do with IT services outside the game.
For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/
Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
|
pushdogg
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
181
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 03:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
Internet spaceships are serious business.
On a serious note, I'm perplexed as to why someone would ever do something like this. But I guess Eve is all some people got.
To the poster above me, you're a Muppet. You're the guy in the background. Who only has Eve. |
Mario Putzo
1623
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 03:59:24 -
[4] - Quote
Amyclas Amatin wrote:There are no limits to counter-intelligence.
Confirming that digi also wins eve. And doesn't even need an account to do his work.
If you spy on us, he will find you, one way or another.
CCP has no jurisdiction over what we do with IT services outside the game.
Sure they do. If they so choose they can remove you from the game. They don't have control over what you do outside of the game. But as soon as you bring that into the game, they have 100% control. But hey they can remove you at any time without reason any way. So yes they have 100% control. |
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
722
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 04:00:14 -
[5] - Quote
Our counter-intel people don't even play.
You can remove all of goons from the game. Please do.
For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/
Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
|
Bedreddin
Comm for Promotion of Virtue Prevention of Vice
15
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 04:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Personally I think that there should be consequence for using such means. It's outside the boundaries of the games design. If the aim of the game was to blur the lines to that degree it would have been designed into the mechanics. |
Mario Putzo
1623
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 04:14:04 -
[7] - Quote
Bedreddin wrote:Personally I think that there should be consequence for using such means. It's outside the boundaries of the games design. If the aim of the game was to blur the lines to that degree it would have been designed into the mechanics.
I agree, I have nothing against getting a spy into channels, or a guy on comms, thats chill. The back door stuff like this...tracking IP just to out someone...for not only the first time, but multiple occurrences. They killed a Titan Alt from PL back in the day and they knew because they had the guys IP, and they even doxxed him just to prove they knew. They did it more recently because a guys IP was in the same province as the FC they were fighting against. Killed a guys Titan because he lived in the same province as some dude...is that not ****** and completely outside the game?
It really is embarassing CCP condones this type of behavior to be completely honest, especially after doing it multiple times. |
Freddy Mercury
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 04:17:02 -
[8] - Quote
Wow, that is super scummy. Guess EVE is Real. Is Real. |
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
1645
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 04:22:04 -
[9] - Quote
Well, I'm in mixed minds about this...
On one hand, it was a classic sting that was seemingly well executed and took advantage of awful opsec on Lemba's part... he got baited plain and simple. Using the IP itself... yeah, grey area but similarly, what about cookies etc? Where is the line drawn?
On the other hand, broadcasting IP information to several thousand people is f**king moronic, and based on GSF's history with such things, was almost certainly done with the full knowledge that the information would be used in a hostile manner. |
Bedreddin
Comm for Promotion of Virtue Prevention of Vice
15
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 04:32:16 -
[10] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Bedreddin wrote:Personally I think that there should be consequence for using such means. It's outside the boundaries of the games design. If the aim of the game was to blur the lines to that degree it would have been designed into the mechanics. I agree, I have nothing against getting a spy into channels, or a guy on comms, thats chill. The back door stuff like this...tracking IP just to out someone...for not only the first time, but multiple occurrences. They killed a Titan Alt from PL back in the day and they knew because they had the guys IP, and they even doxxed him just to prove they knew. They did it more recently because a guys IP was in the same province as the FC they were fighting against. Killed a guys Titan because he lived in the same province as some dude...is that not ****** and completely outside the game? It really is embarassing CCP condones this type of behavior to be completely honest, especially after doing it multiple times.
Agreed. Operations as performed by the Guiding Hand Social Club being a great example and using the mechanics within the game to the full. This to me is just cheap and using a cheat for quick reward because you just want an "I win" button. Just because your being outplayed within the game doesn't give you the right to employ an exploitation out of it. It's a bit of an immature dummy spit.
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7452
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 04:42:47 -
[11] - Quote
Amyclas Amatin wrote:There are no limits to counter-intelligence.
Confirming that digi also wins eve. And doesn't even need an account to do his work.
If you spy on us, he will find you, one way or another.
CCP has no jurisdiction over what we do with IT services outside the game.
"Find you"
"outside the game"
Are you making RL threats to DOX?
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7452
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 05:00:15 -
[12] - Quote
OK So this from the Reddit thread is why I tell people "DON'T CLICK ON A DAMNED THING".
Quote:This morning, with a cleverly crafted trap, we now have identified the spy. Lemba is the spy. It breaks my heart to say this, but the proof is overwhelming. We sent bait link to the leakerGÇÖs reddit account with a text file hosted from our side. When Lemba logged into the leaker account and clicked on the linkGÇÖs text file and accessed the text file, we found the IP address to match that of LembaGÇÖs. HereGÇÖs the proof.
It's more than doxxing/IP risks here. More than some spy being hunted either. In fact, lay that aside. This is something for super pilots and FCs.
Roughly 6 years ago I recall a story from another player who described doing some haunting of locals in some nullsec pocket. I don't recall the details except that his target was a Russian corp.
Anyway, they claimed they could get him, which he denied. But later during the usual cat and mouse fu that is Eve Online, the connection to the server got a bit funny.
Right before it happened the last thing to appear in local in the soon-to-be-frozen up client was "here goes" or something like that.
Now I'm no wizard of networks, but I know enough from my days protecting servers from Chinese hackers (seriously, real hackers. In China).
If someone gets your IP number, they can run a trace. This is not so much cop stuff. Unless you have Eve installed on a web server they won't get all the way to the end, but they don't need to.
They need only know what nodes you are using, which "big switch" you are getting to the Eve server to. It depends on your service. For example, I used to live at a place that had spotty cable internet as it was remote, and I could run a trace from there to my office VPN and see what nodes I was using (helpful to know if your connection is good for an online meeting with streaming video that you want to ensure is OK for it). But at times I used a 4G Wireless system connected to my computer and running the same trace revealed entirely different paths. The 4G account is from an entirely different company.
And then..... well there are "services" you can get anonymously which can run a DDOS on just about any address you give them. I don't know any personally, and I won't go beyond this point because IMO I'm on the verge of going from geeksplaining network 101 to game exploit.
Basically, the IP number can be used to shut down a connection, something that can be a really bad deal for an FC or super pilot.
Only a couple of times over the years I have heard of this happening in Eve.
If this "war" results in this kind of activity, not only should those engaging in it be permabanned from the game, but they should also face criminal charges in their home jurisdiction. But in the end, if internet spaceships so srs that people have to resort to these tactics, then suddenly I don't feel like playing this game any more if that's the kind of people who play it.
Hopefully CCP takes a good hard look into this matter and other matters like this because there are plenty of sore losers to go around.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Mario Putzo
1623
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 05:07:33 -
[13] - Quote
For sure if they have your IP they can hammer you with ping requests and merc your connection. Basically a Private IP DDoS. Not to mention all the private details one can find by following that IP around the internet. One of the guys from PL got doxxed on Kugu a couple years back, just so they could prove it was his Titan Spy they killed.
That is wrong, and illegal in the majority of nations where this game is played. The fact CCP continues to allow this to happen is worrisome to say the least. I hope they step up and finally say enough is enough. |
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 05:13:01 -
[14] - Quote
What can CCP do about it?
If someone that has no account traces an IP address using means totally outside the game and passes on the information, then how is that CCP's responsibility to deal with?
The spy opened the document and caused his IP to be sent, so if he has an issue with that, then surely it's his responsibility to report that to the police if it breaks a criminal code (which it doesn't. It's just the way the internet works), or take civil action himself.
Just because it's Eve related in the end, doesn't mean we can pass our own personal responsibilities on to CCP. This is an issue between the spy that was caught and the person that set him up to be identified. |
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
11568
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 05:14:18 -
[15] - Quote
go make an anonymous edit on any mediawiki wiki
Twitter: @EVEAndski
"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."
-á-á - Abrazzar
|
Freddy Mercury
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 05:34:31 -
[16] - Quote
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:What can CCP do about it?
If someone that has no account traces an IP address using means totally outside the game and passes on the information, then how is that CCP's responsibility to deal with?
The spy opened the document and caused his IP to be sent, so if he has an issue with that, then surely it's his responsibility to report that to the police if it breaks a criminal code, or take civil action himself.
Just because it's Eve related in the end, doesn't mean we can pass our own personal responsibilities on to CCP. This is an issue between the spy that was caught and the person that set him up to be identified.
I dunno I think that CCP does have some responsibility to protect players if it is true that these people have done that before, it does give cause for concern.
|
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 05:58:51 -
[17] - Quote
.forum ate the post. |
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 05:59:56 -
[18] - Quote
Freddy Mercury wrote:I dunno I think that CCP does have some responsibility to protect players if it is true that these people have done that before, it does give cause for concern.
What specific responsibility does CCP have?
Protect players? The guy sent his IP address willingly.
CCP can't protect stupid or prevent people from being lazy.
This involved no CCP asset, involved no CCP accounts and was done totally through servers and systems external to CCP that they have no admin access too. It was just the internet operating normally.
What specifically do you want them to do?
Additionally, the information doesn't identify the player personally, just his IP address and after matching the IP address of the spy to the Director it was clear who was leaking information, so he was kicked out.
What has been done wrong here? Should spies have complete ability to just spy on any Alliance/Corp/Individual in the game? Should they be freely allowed to publish confidential conversations to all and sundry, should they be allowed to quietly interact with you like they are your best friend, all the time leaking information that damages you?
Oh no. Those poor spies. Matching numbers to find them is terrible. How dare that be allowed! |
Josef Djugashvilis
3342
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 06:21:41 -
[19] - Quote
Generally speaking, I find the goons amusing as space comic opera villains in the game, but this kind of behaviour demonstrates that at least some within the fading (soon to be extinct) goon empire take the game far, far too seriously.
If CCP have it within their power to act on this sort of behaviour they should do so, even if just to protect the integrity of their product.
This is not a signature.
|
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 06:25:50 -
[20] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Generally speaking, I find the goons amusing as space comic opera villains in the game, but this kind of behaviour demonstrates that at least some within the fading (soon to be extinct) goon empire take the game far, far too seriously.
If CCP have it within their power to act on this sort of behaviour they should do so, even if just to protect the integrity of their product.
I think rather this is more clearly a case of people being outraged about something they don't understand. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7452
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 06:57:03 -
[21] - Quote
Quite a development.... 
Oh the drama!
I think the more Eve players than ever, and even non-players given that Reddit is "the other site" are going to get a taste of "srs Eve is srs".
That plus "dirty tricks" and laundry being aired, I don't think things are going to be the same no matter what the outcome of this war.
Top kek as they say..
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
Kyra Lee
Ixian Machines
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
80
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 08:26:15 -
[22] - Quote
Granted I know very little of all the drama involved and I can really only base my opinion on the "facts" presented in this thread and my personal knowledge of networking here is what I think.
CCP has no obligation to protect people from their own stupidity. Clicking a suspect link and having someone steal your personally identifiable information is not with CCPs realm to deal with. What that person does once he has your info could be though. If information obtained outside of the game is obtained through an illegal act and is then used to carry out an action inside of the game then it is within CCPs realm to adjudicate.
We have seen several times where CCP has taken ingame action for out of game actions. Defacing the EvE monument, and banning people for the singing ransoms are just a couple.
There are quite a few things CCP would need to investigate and decide on. If any of this proves true they should at least ban the person that took action ingame. |
Mephiztopheleze
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
652
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 08:31:58 -
[23] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:On one hand, it was a classic sting that was seemingly well executed and took advantage of awful opsec on Lemba's part... he got baited plain and simple.
so much this. by simply using a VPN every time he logged into his leak account on Reddit, Lemba would never have been caught by such a simple piece of counter-intel work.
I think making that information public was pretty rude.
Amyclas Amatin wrote:CCP has no jurisdiction over what we do with IT services outside the game.
*cough* Bonus Room? *cough*
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
|
Violet Hurst
Fedaya Recon
77
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 08:36:58 -
[24] - Quote
Same old, same old... |
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 09:14:00 -
[25] - Quote
Kyra Lee wrote:Clicking a suspect link and having someone steal your personally identifiable information is not with CCPs realm to deal with. What that person does once he has your info could be though. If information obtained outside of the game is obtained through an illegal act...
It's neither illegal, nor personally identifiable.
Even CCP track your IP address both in game and when you use the forum as outlined here:
https://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/privacy-cookies-policy-en
Nothing is illegal. It's the way the internet works.
Whenever you send a request to a server to receive information, you also send information to that server.
That's all that happened here.
The guy clicked a link, the server read his IP address, just like many, many other servers do.
As a member of GSF it was easy for them to compare the IP address that requested the document against the list of IP addresses that he probably provides in many places (because he was lazy) on for example the Goons forums (as forum software tracks IP addresses).
So all that happened here is:
Directors listed in the forums. IP addresses (all these IPs just ficticious and made for example purpose):
Mittani: 46.189.60.23
Lemba: 48.265.80.32
Sion: 21.118.40.15
...
...
...
When he requested the document from the server, the server read the IP address from the information he sent. For example:
48.265.80.32
Oh look, that matches Lemba.
Kick Lemba as he's the spy.
Nothing illegal. Lemba was lazy and could have avoided that form of detection very simply.
His fault, but he hasn't been personally identified. Just his character was identified as the Goon Director level spy.
There's nothing illegal about reading an IP address that you send to a server. Type into Google, "what's my IP" and you'll see your own IP presented back to you. You sent it in order for it to be read. |
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
1093
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 09:33:06 -
[26] - Quote
it`s fun to read ha the goons are losing so thats why the are doing this. haha and that for a game..... |
March rabbit
Mosquito Squadron
1731
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 09:52:45 -
[27] - Quote
PL is among good guys now! Don't touch them!
Goons on the other hand ....
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
Daxley
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 09:57:24 -
[28] - Quote
I never really post on the EVE forums, but this one has definitely sparked my interest and somewhat mandates a response.
First, let's examine what actually happened:
Party A decides to be a pro-level distributor of secret information. The secret information Part A decides to distribute comes from a privately held web service that has no affiliation with EVE Online or CCP Games, and is owned by a third party all together for which CCP Games has no access to, no administrative privileges for, and for which CCP Games does not guarantee or provide any level of service, support, or warranty.
Party B, the victim of the released information, attempts to determine who the distributor of their secret information is. As the secret information is being leaked from their privately held web services that, again, have no affiliation with EVE Online or CCP Games, are owned by a third party for which CCP Games has no access to and no administrative privileges for, and for which do not contain, use or have access to any CCP Games held assetts at all, Party B decides to try to determine who the culprit is using very simple IP matching with their own services. They do not attempt to hack anyone, or use brute force criminal activity, they simply put together a little ruse to see if the spy is dumb enough to take the bait.
Party A really loves reddit. That's his target of choice for posting information.
Party B sends Party A a private message, with a ruse link back to the privately held, non-game services, which CCP Games and EVE Online are in no way a part of.
Party A chooses to click said link on their super secret spai alt reddit account, having no idea what the link is for, or why this person would be sending them a link.
Party B reviews their private server data, determines the connection, and takes measures to remove said distributor of secret information from their privately held services.
At this point in time, based on the above, one can clearly determine that none of these activities ever involved CCP Games or EVE Online. The connection of the two parties did not take place because of in game actions or in game communications. To make matters worse, the data that was leaked by Party A from Party B was never even inside of EVE Online or CCP Games property. In fact, no in-game assets or services were used at all.
Party B, now knowing Party A has been divulging their secret information, decides that they no longer wish to be affiliated with Party A in EVE Online, and removes them from their alliance.
What happened here is a simple connecting the dots on completely outside of game assets and completely outside of game services that are not wholly or partially owned by or under the control of CCP Games. The reason that this connection of the dots even occurred is because Lemba chose to disclose chat logs from, again, an outside of game web service that was not part of CCP Games or EVE Online intellectual property in a dump on Reddit. In other words, both the events that occurred and the triggering event for the events that occurred are so far removed from EVE Online and from CCP Games that quite frankly CCP Games has absolutely no business getting involved in this matter at all and would risk legal peril to themselves if they attempted to.
Again, let me repeat, the triggering event for the activities that took place did not occur due to in-game mechanics (such as connecting with someone via a trade channel to harass them for personal enjoyment, a corp application scam where in game assets were used as a catalyst to denigrate an individual on a personal, out of game basis, or a Jita scam with advantage interrogation techniques i.e. "bonus room" style hazing) therefore they are not in any way under the control of CCP Games and there would be no terms of service violation as the mere facts of all of the above details specifically remove this from an in-game or terms of service issue. Keep in mind, in situations in the past where CCP Games has stepped in and taken action, they have been because individuals were selected, contacted or targeted using in-game assets and communications. Because everything that happened here, from the reason for the investigation to the triggering events, to all of the services involved, etc were all completely outside of the game and in no way used in game services, there is no grounds for CCP Games to intervene in this at all.
While some may be upset that others are quite savvy with technology and are able to perform these kinds of checks against your personal information out of game, keep in mind that as many others have mentioned, every time you connect somewhere or login to a forum you make a lot of data available. If that data is used against you because you chose to login, that is really your own fault. CCP Games cannot do anything to remedy situations like this unless they choose to ban all player organizations from using third party services to connect with other players that they meet in the game. In other words, RIP EVE Online. |
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
722
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 10:14:10 -
[29] - Quote
First public spy purge of the war.
You didn't think we play nice with spies did we? Good spies can really hamper game play. And director spies are dangerous.
Imagine if we did the same to you. (we probably already do.)
For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/
Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
|
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
595
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 10:15:52 -
[30] - Quote
You missed out the stage where they then publically pinged his ip address to a particular subset of the userbase of the game...
A subset that might have slightly rustled jimmies.
but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
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