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Mario Putzo
1623
   |
Posted - 2016.04.09 03:37:07 -
[1] - Quote
Tonight some interesting leaks were made, dank if you will, from Goon Swarm directorate. Now I am sure you read Reddit and saw the post, I am sure if you didn't any of the secondary posters (who redacted sensitive information) would be willing to provide you the raw deets. Now we know this isn't the first time Goon Swarm has used IP tracking to make decisions in the game, we know its not the first time they have used it to obtain information about subscribers to your game.
So where is the line between game and real life. Here is a directorate of one of the largest groups in the game congratulating IP tracing to out one of their members. Is there a line? should people who condone underhanded out of game, real world espionage not be given some infraction?
Anyhow here is the leak for you all.
(10:35:28 PM) directorbot: LOST ANOTHER TRAITOR TO GOONSWARM:
Traitor From: Twizzlespark Celes Sent: 2016.04.09 02:34 To: Goonswarm Federation,
DOKDO, Today I come before you with a terrible news. IGÇÖll keep it brief. GSF has been hunting for Director level spy, who has been getting more and more bold recently. This morning, with a cleverly crafted trap, we now have identified the spy. Lemba is the spy. It breaks my heart to say this, but the proof is overwhelming. We sent bait link to the leakerGÇÖs reddit account with a text file hosted from our side. When Lemba logged into the leaker account and clicked on the linkGÇÖs text file and accessed the text file, we found the IP address to match that of LembaGÇÖs. HereGÇÖs the proof.
-USER's Computer/IP information-
It disappoints me greatly to face up to the truth, but the proof is overwhelming. And however terrible the truth may be, DOKDO must go on. I have created corporation GÇ£IGÇÖm Fine and You arenGÇÖtGÇ¥[D0KDO] and we are going to move there. We will have full support of Goonswarm Federation in the process and we will operate just as we have, sans Lemba. If you have supercapital in the corporation, keep it LOGGED OFF until it is safe for us to move them. You will bounce like a ping pong ball and will soon see gazillion supers and dreads on your head. We will arrange a safe transfer for your supers. Keep them LOGGED OFF. Apply to the new corporation with your Full API / verification key, and I will accept you shortly. The new corp is going to be in GSF in 24hours. DonGÇÖt log in until we are in GSF when in new corp
ILLUM LEAK:
(9:28:52 PM) kilgarth: !promote twizzlespark_celes
(9:28:52 PM) Dabigredbot: Twizzlespark Celes has been promoted, and sent an introductory message.
(9:31:05 PM) twizzlespark_celes: Lemba i'm disappointed
(9:31:12 PM) twizzlespark_celes: Sad that this happened, and **** you
(9:31:59 PM) twizzlespark_celes: I asked mirana to let the spy know that twizzlespark said **** you, didn't know that i would be gifted the chance to do so face-to-face
(9:32:05 PM) veldruk_grimm: look, its twizzlespark_celes
(9:32:08 PM) twizzlespark_celes: but here we are.
(9:32:21 PM) querns@laptop: :munch:
(9:32:28 PM) kyiera: :stare:
(9:32:31 PM) the_mittani: https://www.reddit.com/user/illumittanileaks your posting is **** lemba
(9:32:52 PM) veldruk_grimm: 2 DOKDO's? We are screwed
(9:32:59 PM) kilgarth: !ban lemba
(9:33:00 PM) Innominate: one less shortly
(9:33:05 PM) veldruk_grimm: toot
(9:33:06 PM) Dabigredbot: Lemba has been banned.
(9:33:14 PM) querns@laptop: :shobonissar:
(9:33:19 PM) kilgarth: BANG BANG *****
(9:33:25 PM) veldruk_grimm: GET SOME
~~~ This was a broadcast from the_mittani to all at 2016-04-09 02:35:28.672968 EVE ~~~
Is that what EVE Online is about? This isn't the first time certain members of this group have been involved in these tactics...but it should be their last. |
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
722
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 03:39:28 -
[2] - Quote
There are no limits to counter-intelligence.
Confirming that digi also wins eve. And doesn't even need an account to do his work.
If you spy on us, he will find you, one way or another.
CCP has no jurisdiction over what we do with IT services outside the game.
For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/
Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
|
pushdogg
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
181
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 03:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
Internet spaceships are serious business.
On a serious note, I'm perplexed as to why someone would ever do something like this. But I guess Eve is all some people got.
To the poster above me, you're a Muppet. You're the guy in the background. Who only has Eve. |
Mario Putzo
1623
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 03:59:24 -
[4] - Quote
Amyclas Amatin wrote:There are no limits to counter-intelligence.
Confirming that digi also wins eve. And doesn't even need an account to do his work.
If you spy on us, he will find you, one way or another.
CCP has no jurisdiction over what we do with IT services outside the game.
Sure they do. If they so choose they can remove you from the game. They don't have control over what you do outside of the game. But as soon as you bring that into the game, they have 100% control. But hey they can remove you at any time without reason any way. So yes they have 100% control. |
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
722
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 04:00:14 -
[5] - Quote
Our counter-intel people don't even play.
You can remove all of goons from the game. Please do.
For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/
Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
|
Bedreddin
Comm for Promotion of Virtue Prevention of Vice
15
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 04:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Personally I think that there should be consequence for using such means. It's outside the boundaries of the games design. If the aim of the game was to blur the lines to that degree it would have been designed into the mechanics. |
Mario Putzo
1623
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 04:14:04 -
[7] - Quote
Bedreddin wrote:Personally I think that there should be consequence for using such means. It's outside the boundaries of the games design. If the aim of the game was to blur the lines to that degree it would have been designed into the mechanics.
I agree, I have nothing against getting a spy into channels, or a guy on comms, thats chill. The back door stuff like this...tracking IP just to out someone...for not only the first time, but multiple occurrences. They killed a Titan Alt from PL back in the day and they knew because they had the guys IP, and they even doxxed him just to prove they knew. They did it more recently because a guys IP was in the same province as the FC they were fighting against. Killed a guys Titan because he lived in the same province as some dude...is that not ****** and completely outside the game?
It really is embarassing CCP condones this type of behavior to be completely honest, especially after doing it multiple times. |
Freddy Mercury
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 04:17:02 -
[8] - Quote
Wow, that is super scummy. Guess EVE is Real. Is Real. |
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
1645
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 04:22:04 -
[9] - Quote
Well, I'm in mixed minds about this...
On one hand, it was a classic sting that was seemingly well executed and took advantage of awful opsec on Lemba's part... he got baited plain and simple. Using the IP itself... yeah, grey area but similarly, what about cookies etc? Where is the line drawn?
On the other hand, broadcasting IP information to several thousand people is f**king moronic, and based on GSF's history with such things, was almost certainly done with the full knowledge that the information would be used in a hostile manner. |
Bedreddin
Comm for Promotion of Virtue Prevention of Vice
15
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 04:32:16 -
[10] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Bedreddin wrote:Personally I think that there should be consequence for using such means. It's outside the boundaries of the games design. If the aim of the game was to blur the lines to that degree it would have been designed into the mechanics. I agree, I have nothing against getting a spy into channels, or a guy on comms, thats chill. The back door stuff like this...tracking IP just to out someone...for not only the first time, but multiple occurrences. They killed a Titan Alt from PL back in the day and they knew because they had the guys IP, and they even doxxed him just to prove they knew. They did it more recently because a guys IP was in the same province as the FC they were fighting against. Killed a guys Titan because he lived in the same province as some dude...is that not ****** and completely outside the game? It really is embarassing CCP condones this type of behavior to be completely honest, especially after doing it multiple times.
Agreed. Operations as performed by the Guiding Hand Social Club being a great example and using the mechanics within the game to the full. This to me is just cheap and using a cheat for quick reward because you just want an "I win" button. Just because your being outplayed within the game doesn't give you the right to employ an exploitation out of it. It's a bit of an immature dummy spit.
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7452
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 04:42:47 -
[11] - Quote
Amyclas Amatin wrote:There are no limits to counter-intelligence.
Confirming that digi also wins eve. And doesn't even need an account to do his work.
If you spy on us, he will find you, one way or another.
CCP has no jurisdiction over what we do with IT services outside the game.
"Find you"
"outside the game"
Are you making RL threats to DOX?
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7452
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 05:00:15 -
[12] - Quote
OK So this from the Reddit thread is why I tell people "DON'T CLICK ON A DAMNED THING".
Quote:This morning, with a cleverly crafted trap, we now have identified the spy. Lemba is the spy. It breaks my heart to say this, but the proof is overwhelming. We sent bait link to the leakerGÇÖs reddit account with a text file hosted from our side. When Lemba logged into the leaker account and clicked on the linkGÇÖs text file and accessed the text file, we found the IP address to match that of LembaGÇÖs. HereGÇÖs the proof.
It's more than doxxing/IP risks here. More than some spy being hunted either. In fact, lay that aside. This is something for super pilots and FCs.
Roughly 6 years ago I recall a story from another player who described doing some haunting of locals in some nullsec pocket. I don't recall the details except that his target was a Russian corp.
Anyway, they claimed they could get him, which he denied. But later during the usual cat and mouse fu that is Eve Online, the connection to the server got a bit funny.
Right before it happened the last thing to appear in local in the soon-to-be-frozen up client was "here goes" or something like that.
Now I'm no wizard of networks, but I know enough from my days protecting servers from Chinese hackers (seriously, real hackers. In China).
If someone gets your IP number, they can run a trace. This is not so much cop stuff. Unless you have Eve installed on a web server they won't get all the way to the end, but they don't need to.
They need only know what nodes you are using, which "big switch" you are getting to the Eve server to. It depends on your service. For example, I used to live at a place that had spotty cable internet as it was remote, and I could run a trace from there to my office VPN and see what nodes I was using (helpful to know if your connection is good for an online meeting with streaming video that you want to ensure is OK for it). But at times I used a 4G Wireless system connected to my computer and running the same trace revealed entirely different paths. The 4G account is from an entirely different company.
And then..... well there are "services" you can get anonymously which can run a DDOS on just about any address you give them. I don't know any personally, and I won't go beyond this point because IMO I'm on the verge of going from geeksplaining network 101 to game exploit.
Basically, the IP number can be used to shut down a connection, something that can be a really bad deal for an FC or super pilot.
Only a couple of times over the years I have heard of this happening in Eve.
If this "war" results in this kind of activity, not only should those engaging in it be permabanned from the game, but they should also face criminal charges in their home jurisdiction. But in the end, if internet spaceships so srs that people have to resort to these tactics, then suddenly I don't feel like playing this game any more if that's the kind of people who play it.
Hopefully CCP takes a good hard look into this matter and other matters like this because there are plenty of sore losers to go around.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
Mario Putzo
1623
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 05:07:33 -
[13] - Quote
For sure if they have your IP they can hammer you with ping requests and merc your connection. Basically a Private IP DDoS. Not to mention all the private details one can find by following that IP around the internet. One of the guys from PL got doxxed on Kugu a couple years back, just so they could prove it was his Titan Spy they killed.
That is wrong, and illegal in the majority of nations where this game is played. The fact CCP continues to allow this to happen is worrisome to say the least. I hope they step up and finally say enough is enough. |
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 05:13:01 -
[14] - Quote
What can CCP do about it?
If someone that has no account traces an IP address using means totally outside the game and passes on the information, then how is that CCP's responsibility to deal with?
The spy opened the document and caused his IP to be sent, so if he has an issue with that, then surely it's his responsibility to report that to the police if it breaks a criminal code (which it doesn't. It's just the way the internet works), or take civil action himself.
Just because it's Eve related in the end, doesn't mean we can pass our own personal responsibilities on to CCP. This is an issue between the spy that was caught and the person that set him up to be identified. |
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
11568
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 05:14:18 -
[15] - Quote
go make an anonymous edit on any mediawiki wiki
Twitter: @EVEAndski
"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."
-á-á - Abrazzar
|
Freddy Mercury
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 05:34:31 -
[16] - Quote
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:What can CCP do about it?
If someone that has no account traces an IP address using means totally outside the game and passes on the information, then how is that CCP's responsibility to deal with?
The spy opened the document and caused his IP to be sent, so if he has an issue with that, then surely it's his responsibility to report that to the police if it breaks a criminal code, or take civil action himself.
Just because it's Eve related in the end, doesn't mean we can pass our own personal responsibilities on to CCP. This is an issue between the spy that was caught and the person that set him up to be identified.
I dunno I think that CCP does have some responsibility to protect players if it is true that these people have done that before, it does give cause for concern.
|
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 05:58:51 -
[17] - Quote
.forum ate the post. |
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 05:59:56 -
[18] - Quote
Freddy Mercury wrote:I dunno I think that CCP does have some responsibility to protect players if it is true that these people have done that before, it does give cause for concern.
What specific responsibility does CCP have?
Protect players? The guy sent his IP address willingly.
CCP can't protect stupid or prevent people from being lazy.
This involved no CCP asset, involved no CCP accounts and was done totally through servers and systems external to CCP that they have no admin access too. It was just the internet operating normally.
What specifically do you want them to do?
Additionally, the information doesn't identify the player personally, just his IP address and after matching the IP address of the spy to the Director it was clear who was leaking information, so he was kicked out.
What has been done wrong here? Should spies have complete ability to just spy on any Alliance/Corp/Individual in the game? Should they be freely allowed to publish confidential conversations to all and sundry, should they be allowed to quietly interact with you like they are your best friend, all the time leaking information that damages you?
Oh no. Those poor spies. Matching numbers to find them is terrible. How dare that be allowed! |
Josef Djugashvilis
3342
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 06:21:41 -
[19] - Quote
Generally speaking, I find the goons amusing as space comic opera villains in the game, but this kind of behaviour demonstrates that at least some within the fading (soon to be extinct) goon empire take the game far, far too seriously.
If CCP have it within their power to act on this sort of behaviour they should do so, even if just to protect the integrity of their product.
This is not a signature.
|
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 06:25:50 -
[20] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Generally speaking, I find the goons amusing as space comic opera villains in the game, but this kind of behaviour demonstrates that at least some within the fading (soon to be extinct) goon empire take the game far, far too seriously.
If CCP have it within their power to act on this sort of behaviour they should do so, even if just to protect the integrity of their product.
I think rather this is more clearly a case of people being outraged about something they don't understand. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7452
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 06:57:03 -
[21] - Quote
Quite a development.... 
Oh the drama!
I think the more Eve players than ever, and even non-players given that Reddit is "the other site" are going to get a taste of "srs Eve is srs".
That plus "dirty tricks" and laundry being aired, I don't think things are going to be the same no matter what the outcome of this war.
Top kek as they say..
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
Kyra Lee
Ixian Machines
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
80
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 08:26:15 -
[22] - Quote
Granted I know very little of all the drama involved and I can really only base my opinion on the "facts" presented in this thread and my personal knowledge of networking here is what I think.
CCP has no obligation to protect people from their own stupidity. Clicking a suspect link and having someone steal your personally identifiable information is not with CCPs realm to deal with. What that person does once he has your info could be though. If information obtained outside of the game is obtained through an illegal act and is then used to carry out an action inside of the game then it is within CCPs realm to adjudicate.
We have seen several times where CCP has taken ingame action for out of game actions. Defacing the EvE monument, and banning people for the singing ransoms are just a couple.
There are quite a few things CCP would need to investigate and decide on. If any of this proves true they should at least ban the person that took action ingame. |
Mephiztopheleze
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
652
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 08:31:58 -
[23] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:On one hand, it was a classic sting that was seemingly well executed and took advantage of awful opsec on Lemba's part... he got baited plain and simple.
so much this. by simply using a VPN every time he logged into his leak account on Reddit, Lemba would never have been caught by such a simple piece of counter-intel work.
I think making that information public was pretty rude.
Amyclas Amatin wrote:CCP has no jurisdiction over what we do with IT services outside the game.
*cough* Bonus Room? *cough*
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
|
Violet Hurst
Fedaya Recon
77
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 08:36:58 -
[24] - Quote
Same old, same old... |
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 09:14:00 -
[25] - Quote
Kyra Lee wrote:Clicking a suspect link and having someone steal your personally identifiable information is not with CCPs realm to deal with. What that person does once he has your info could be though. If information obtained outside of the game is obtained through an illegal act...
It's neither illegal, nor personally identifiable.
Even CCP track your IP address both in game and when you use the forum as outlined here:
https://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/privacy-cookies-policy-en
Nothing is illegal. It's the way the internet works.
Whenever you send a request to a server to receive information, you also send information to that server.
That's all that happened here.
The guy clicked a link, the server read his IP address, just like many, many other servers do.
As a member of GSF it was easy for them to compare the IP address that requested the document against the list of IP addresses that he probably provides in many places (because he was lazy) on for example the Goons forums (as forum software tracks IP addresses).
So all that happened here is:
Directors listed in the forums. IP addresses (all these IPs just ficticious and made for example purpose):
Mittani: 46.189.60.23
Lemba: 48.265.80.32
Sion: 21.118.40.15
...
...
...
When he requested the document from the server, the server read the IP address from the information he sent. For example:
48.265.80.32
Oh look, that matches Lemba.
Kick Lemba as he's the spy.
Nothing illegal. Lemba was lazy and could have avoided that form of detection very simply.
His fault, but he hasn't been personally identified. Just his character was identified as the Goon Director level spy.
There's nothing illegal about reading an IP address that you send to a server. Type into Google, "what's my IP" and you'll see your own IP presented back to you. You sent it in order for it to be read. |
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
1093
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 09:33:06 -
[26] - Quote
it`s fun to read ha the goons are losing so thats why the are doing this. haha and that for a game..... |
March rabbit
Mosquito Squadron
1731
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 09:52:45 -
[27] - Quote
PL is among good guys now! Don't touch them!
Goons on the other hand ....
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
Daxley
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 09:57:24 -
[28] - Quote
I never really post on the EVE forums, but this one has definitely sparked my interest and somewhat mandates a response.
First, let's examine what actually happened:
Party A decides to be a pro-level distributor of secret information. The secret information Part A decides to distribute comes from a privately held web service that has no affiliation with EVE Online or CCP Games, and is owned by a third party all together for which CCP Games has no access to, no administrative privileges for, and for which CCP Games does not guarantee or provide any level of service, support, or warranty.
Party B, the victim of the released information, attempts to determine who the distributor of their secret information is. As the secret information is being leaked from their privately held web services that, again, have no affiliation with EVE Online or CCP Games, are owned by a third party for which CCP Games has no access to and no administrative privileges for, and for which do not contain, use or have access to any CCP Games held assetts at all, Party B decides to try to determine who the culprit is using very simple IP matching with their own services. They do not attempt to hack anyone, or use brute force criminal activity, they simply put together a little ruse to see if the spy is dumb enough to take the bait.
Party A really loves reddit. That's his target of choice for posting information.
Party B sends Party A a private message, with a ruse link back to the privately held, non-game services, which CCP Games and EVE Online are in no way a part of.
Party A chooses to click said link on their super secret spai alt reddit account, having no idea what the link is for, or why this person would be sending them a link.
Party B reviews their private server data, determines the connection, and takes measures to remove said distributor of secret information from their privately held services.
At this point in time, based on the above, one can clearly determine that none of these activities ever involved CCP Games or EVE Online. The connection of the two parties did not take place because of in game actions or in game communications. To make matters worse, the data that was leaked by Party A from Party B was never even inside of EVE Online or CCP Games property. In fact, no in-game assets or services were used at all.
Party B, now knowing Party A has been divulging their secret information, decides that they no longer wish to be affiliated with Party A in EVE Online, and removes them from their alliance.
What happened here is a simple connecting the dots on completely outside of game assets and completely outside of game services that are not wholly or partially owned by or under the control of CCP Games. The reason that this connection of the dots even occurred is because Lemba chose to disclose chat logs from, again, an outside of game web service that was not part of CCP Games or EVE Online intellectual property in a dump on Reddit. In other words, both the events that occurred and the triggering event for the events that occurred are so far removed from EVE Online and from CCP Games that quite frankly CCP Games has absolutely no business getting involved in this matter at all and would risk legal peril to themselves if they attempted to.
Again, let me repeat, the triggering event for the activities that took place did not occur due to in-game mechanics (such as connecting with someone via a trade channel to harass them for personal enjoyment, a corp application scam where in game assets were used as a catalyst to denigrate an individual on a personal, out of game basis, or a Jita scam with advantage interrogation techniques i.e. "bonus room" style hazing) therefore they are not in any way under the control of CCP Games and there would be no terms of service violation as the mere facts of all of the above details specifically remove this from an in-game or terms of service issue. Keep in mind, in situations in the past where CCP Games has stepped in and taken action, they have been because individuals were selected, contacted or targeted using in-game assets and communications. Because everything that happened here, from the reason for the investigation to the triggering events, to all of the services involved, etc were all completely outside of the game and in no way used in game services, there is no grounds for CCP Games to intervene in this at all.
While some may be upset that others are quite savvy with technology and are able to perform these kinds of checks against your personal information out of game, keep in mind that as many others have mentioned, every time you connect somewhere or login to a forum you make a lot of data available. If that data is used against you because you chose to login, that is really your own fault. CCP Games cannot do anything to remedy situations like this unless they choose to ban all player organizations from using third party services to connect with other players that they meet in the game. In other words, RIP EVE Online. |
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
722
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 10:14:10 -
[29] - Quote
First public spy purge of the war.
You didn't think we play nice with spies did we? Good spies can really hamper game play. And director spies are dangerous.
Imagine if we did the same to you. (we probably already do.)
For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/
Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
|
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
595
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 10:15:52 -
[30] - Quote
You missed out the stage where they then publically pinged his ip address to a particular subset of the userbase of the game...
A subset that might have slightly rustled jimmies.
but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
|
Daxley
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 10:24:10 -
[31] - Quote
Eli Apol wrote:You missed out the stage where they then publically pinged his ip address to a particular subset of the userbase of the game...
A subset that might have slightly rustled jimmies.
I didn't miss that. I am well aware of the fact that on Goonswarm's privately held, third party service, they have the ability to send pings out to their members. Once again, these pings were sent to individuals from a third party service, not affiliated with EVE Online or CCP Games. So, I don't think I missed it, my post should quite clearly lay out how this exact thing is once again, outside of CCP Games and EVE Online, and therefore outside of CCP Games control. Heck, if anyone in Goonswarm wants to ping out my IP address right now, I couldn't stop them from doing it. But, then again, I didn't try to hack together a pitiful spy attempt and get rused. |
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
595
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 10:27:59 -
[32] - Quote
But they sent them to a subset of the eve online userbase...
E: and their reason for sending it was based around events centred on eve online...
but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
|
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 10:31:20 -
[33] - Quote
Eli Apol wrote:But they sent them to a subset of the eve online userbase...
Who cares. They only send them to people who have already given their permission for it to happen.
Poor Goon Director. |
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
595
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 10:33:36 -
[34] - Quote
Just pointing out that it looks a bit **** to have your product associated with such a ****** act really...
Thats all.
but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
|
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 10:38:13 -
[35] - Quote
Eli Apol wrote:Just pointing out that it looks a bit **** to have your product associated with such a ****** act really...
Thats all.
You can't talk for CCP (they also track IP addresses as do the vast majority of company sites on the internet in one form or another) and there is nothing they can do in any case. Nor are they responsible for it.
It's just hysteria from people who don't understand the technology so think automatically there is something wrong with it. |
Daxley
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 10:39:56 -
[36] - Quote
Eli Apol wrote:Just pointing out that it looks a bit **** to have your product associated with such a ****** act really...
Thats all.
EVE Online is literally famous for these types of things in bloc wars. Right now, EVE is getting more press than Donald Trump between VR/Valkyrie and this war, let it roll baby. |
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
595
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 10:41:57 -
[37] - Quote
Im just arguing with Daxley trying to suggest that this has nothing to do with the game... Whether CCP agrees with this or not is upto them.
Its just like my opinion man.
but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
|
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
722
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 10:44:29 -
[38] - Quote
so what do you want CCP to do? Goonswarm Federation and its non-playing members will continue to do this over third party services.
For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/
Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
|
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 10:44:52 -
[39] - Quote
Eli Apol wrote:... trying to suggest that this has nothing to do with the game...
Who's suggesting it has nothing to do with the game? |
Mephiztopheleze
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
652
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 10:45:01 -
[40] - Quote
Amyclas Amatin wrote:Imagine if we did the same to you. (we probably already do.)
What do you mean 'probably', Kimosabe? GIA/Black Hand are very, very good at what they do.
Daxley wrote:Eli Apol wrote:Just pointing out that it looks a bit **** to have your product associated with such a ****** act really...
Thats all. EVE Online is literally famous for these types of things in bloc wars. Right now, EVE is getting more press than Donald Trump between VR/Valkyrie and this war, let it roll baby.
Yup. These sorts of shenanigans will appeal to a great many gamers. Heck, it was a combination of reading about the Guiding Hand Social Club and reports on B-R5RB that drew me in.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
|
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
595
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 10:45:35 -
[41] - Quote
...and this is why deklein is burning.
:D
but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
|
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
722
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 10:49:35 -
[42] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:Amyclas Amatin wrote:Imagine if we did the same to you. (we probably already do.) What do you mean 'probably', Kimosabe? GIA/Black Hand are very, very good at what they do. Daxley wrote:Eli Apol wrote:Just pointing out that it looks a bit **** to have your product associated with such a ****** act really...
Thats all. EVE Online is literally famous for these types of things in bloc wars. Right now, EVE is getting more press than Donald Trump between VR/Valkyrie and this war, let it roll baby. Yup. These sorts of shenanigans will appeal to a great many gamers. Heck, it was a combination of reading about the Guiding Hand Social Club and reports on B-R5RB that drew me in.
We can neither confirm nor deny such underhanded activities. If we had spies, what would CCP do if they were caught and identified?
For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/
Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
|
Cypherous
Liberty Rogues
Aprilon Dynasty
175
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 10:58:04 -
[43] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
That is wrong, and illegal in the majority of nations where this game is played. The fact CCP continues to allow this to happen is worrisome to say the least. I hope they step up and finally say enough is enough.
CCP can't prevent it, they can't even track that its happening, people are using external web services to facilitate this, i mean hell i could drop a funny cat picture in jita local and then immediately log all of the IP's of people who clicked the link, there is absolutely nothing CCP can do about this nor would they even know i was doing it, traffic logs are enabled on pretty much any web server and are useful for a great many things, i mean by default the server is told things like your IP, OS version, browser version and there are other things you can find out with the right sort of code, just look at things like cookies
But i digress, CCP can tell you that something is bad but they are unable to prove it happened and they are unable to tell if said thing is even going on |
Zeikxx Oxone
Hole Violence
Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 11:22:35 -
[44] - Quote
Eli Apol wrote:...and this is why deklein is burning.
:D
Weird, I'm not really having any issues ratting. |
beakerax
Pator Tech School
253
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 12:02:59 -
[45] - Quote
Amyclas Amatin wrote:Goonswarm Federation and its non-playing members ie all of them  |
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
943
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 12:48:12 -
[46] - Quote
Please keep in mind that Goonswarm is not only a space guild, but also an IT infrastructure. Comparing IP addresses is a basic strategy to identify double accounts, bots, spammers, or otherwise bad guys on any forum worth it's salt. It's not illegal and in my book it's also not immoral.
CCP will use this method as well to identify your main account if you do bad things with an alt for example, and then ban you.
Look at it the other way: A Spy in goonswarm will leak information from a non public forum and jabber to third parties. This also happens outside of the game, and were it not for the game, I'd consider this highly immoral, and probably illegal in some countries. If you think trying to find the guy by all means this infrastructure provides is immoral, please think again.
Using an IP address to confirm that someone is a certain user of your own IT infrastructure is not only legal (except maybe in Texas), as said user does freely provide his IP address to the services he uses, but also crucial to maintain a basic level of security. Welcome to the internet. |
Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
85
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 12:59:46 -
[47] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Please keep in mind that Goonswarm is not only a space guild, but also an IT infrastructure. Comparing IP addresses is a basic strategy to identify double accounts, bots, spammers, or otherwise bad guys on any forum worth it's salt. It's not illegal and in my book it's also not immoral.
CCP will use this method as well to identify your main account if you do bad things with an alt for example, and then ban you.
Look at it the other way: A Spy in goonswarm will leak information from a non public forum and jabber to third parties. This also happens outside of the game, and were it not for the game, I'd consider this highly immoral, and probably illegal in some countries. If you think trying to find the guy by all means this infrastructure provides is immoral, please think again.
Using an IP address to confirm that someone is a certain user of your own IT infrastructure is not only legal (except maybe in Texas), as said user does freely provide his IP address to the services he uses, but also crucial to maintain a basic level of security. Welcome to the internet.
Great I'm going to send IP loggers to random CFC director then  |
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
943
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 13:08:16 -
[48] - Quote
Aaron Honk wrote:Great I'm going to send IP loggers to random CFC director then
The spy in question used the Goonswarm forum as his director persona, and he opened a document located on the same servers as his "whistleblower" persona, allowing for the two to be identified as the same user. No dedicated IP loggers were involved. But sure, if you feel like it, go ahead. I think you overestimate what you can do with an IP address.
If you want, I'll let you know mine. Just send an Eve-Mail. |
Oracle of Machina
Hedonic Defense Systems
Plexodus
38
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 13:16:37 -
[49] - Quote
The decision to broadcast the IP address of the spy in question was actually the thing that crossed the line here. There was no reason that information should have been made public, period. |
Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
85
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 13:20:08 -
[50] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:I think you overestimate what you can do with an IP address.
The guy who took down eve networks few days ago had not the same opinions |
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
943
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 13:21:52 -
[51] - Quote
Oracle of Machina wrote:The decision to broadcast the IP address of the spy in question was actually the thing that crossed the line here. There was no reason that information should have been made public, period.
That is indeed a bit flaky. It's nothing CCP or anyone but the victim can do anything about, though. If he feels he has been wronged, he can bring it before a court. But then he'll have to explain what he was doing there as well.
It's a bit like suing someone for assault after breaking into his home - possible, but most likely not the smartest thing to do. |
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
943
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 13:29:24 -
[52] - Quote
Aaron Honk wrote:The guy who took down eve networks few days ago had not the same opinions
Yet, the IP of the server is publicly known. See - the internet does not work without IP addresses. Communication cannot happen and a service will not work unless the IP addresses of both the client and the server are known to each other.
It's not finding out IP addresses that's a problem, it's what you do with them. Finding out that someone has a certain IP address is not a problem, neither is using that IP to identify someone breaking the rules. Flooding said IP with requests till the connection cannot keep up is. Now - if that had happened, though, this would be a topic for the law authorities, not for CCP or the Eve community. But it has not.
It's like if you came to me and said "Hi, I'm John Doe" and I was all like "Oh, you are the same John Doe that always keeps sending me creepy stalker loveletters, get the **** away from me!".
Simply by posting here, you make your IP address known to the people running this forum (CCP), and they will use it to identify you if they have reason to believe you are in violation of their rules somewhere. And it's likely somewhere in the Terms of Service you agreed to as well, same as it is on the Goonswarm Webservices:
Quote:Log files are maintained and analysed of all requests for files on this website's web servers. Log files do not capture personal information but do capture the user's IP address, which is automatically recognised by our web servers. |
March rabbit
Mosquito Squadron
1731
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 13:45:36 -
[53] - Quote
Eli Apol wrote:...and this is why deklein is burning.
:D
you should then look at the link provided in 2nd page (or it was 1st?) where youtube video tells the story about password shenigans by PL.... And then you should find the place PL is in and burn it too.
It's only if you really into white knigthing
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
26
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 13:51:38 -
[54] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Oracle of Machina wrote:The decision to broadcast the IP address of the spy in question was actually the thing that crossed the line here. There was no reason that information should have been made public, period. That is indeed a bit flaky. It's nothing CCP or anyone but the victim can do anything about, though. If he feels he has been wronged, he can bring it before a court. But then he'll have to explain what he was doing there as well.
Well In Europe your IP counts as a personal info. He had every right to do what he did, legally, but in Germany posting his IP would be a crime. Goonswarm isn't a business so there are no business infos. I have no problems with identifying some traitor while both are using out of game programs but posting the IP was simply wrong!
BTW: I think it's really bad style to post private logs. As the name tells you, they are not for the public without both sides accepting it.
|
March rabbit
Mosquito Squadron
1731
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 13:54:15 -
[55] - Quote
Geronimo McVain wrote:BTW: I think it's really bad style to post private logs. As the name tells you, they are not for the public without both sides accepting it.
Well... it's very popular in Reddis to post 'private' chats
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
Cherril
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 13:57:34 -
[56] - Quote
hey Mario, (et al.)
RL could be "lowsec" sometimes. Everyone concerned should be aware of that and take measures.
Don't like or want to patronize you or someone else, but be careful on your digital footprint.
|
Cherril
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 14:02:50 -
[57] - Quote
a bit off-topic:
when connecting to Ventrilo / TS / Mumble server you provide your real IP address to server holder. That passes through many conventional methods to hide your IP address.
so  think twice when your CORP insist on voicecomms attendance.
EVE voice is safe!
|
cBOLTSON
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
156
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 14:03:59 -
[58] - Quote
Now this is a juicy thread indeed.
I for one do not particularly like the goons but I have respect for them, they are a cunning group at times. What they did to oust the traitor was fair play in my opinion but the sharing and posting of I.P addresses is a dirty tactic for sure.
Then again its the goons, are they not infamous for this sort of thing?
The good old days of Unreal Tournament, fragging and sniping on Facing Worlds, listening to Foregone Destruction.......
|
Sustrai Aditua
Irubo Kovu
80
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 14:08:46 -
[59] - Quote
lol (and I mean that) This is why you don't trust third party websites unless sanctioned by CCP
since CCP has a business contract with us, their staff cannot be involved in leaking our information
if they do they are pecuniarily libel and subject to legal action - with a digital footprint they cannot erase
Why do you think that Mittani site exists? Who are these Reddit people? Do they owe you security?
CCP does. They're under contract to you.
Wander away at your own risk. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3342
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 14:10:54 -
[60] - Quote
Zeikxx Oxone wrote:Eli Apol wrote:...and this is why deklein is burning.
:D Weird, I'm not really having any issues ratting.
Yet...
This is not a signature.
|
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7465
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 14:25:44 -
[61] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:So where is the line between game and real life. I'm guessing if you guys haven't crossed it by launching personal attacks at Mittani, not on his game character but directly at him, his career choices, his image, etc, then posting up something as readily available as an IP address is unlikely to be crossing it.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
|
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
943
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 14:27:25 -
[62] - Quote
Geronimo McVain wrote:I have no problems with identifying some traitor while both are using out of game programs but posting the IP was simply wrong!
Yes it was. Then again - it wasn't exactly public. It's still just communication within a group with restricted access. I'm not saying broadcasting it to the alliance was the right thing to do, also because it doesn't serve a purpose - to me only the log for the text file he opened from reddit doesn't prove anything on it's own.
I think this was mainly oversight on the directors part. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7465
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 14:30:43 -
[63] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:I know enough from my days protecting servers from Chinese hackers Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:If someone gets your IP number
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
|
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7465
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 14:49:07 -
[64] - Quote
Geronimo McVain wrote:Well In Europe your IP counts as a personal info. He had every right to do what he did, legally, but in Germany posting his IP would be a crime. Goonswarm isn't a business so there are no business infos. I have no problems with identifying some traitor while both are using out of game programs but posting the IP was simply wrong!
BTW: I think it's really bad style to post private logs. As the name tells you, they are not for the public without both sides accepting it. Actually, even in Europe an IP address on it's own is not classed as personal information. Also if you want to get that deep into the legality, taking jabber pings from a protected network and posting them on the internet without permission of the networks owner is also illegal, even if they contain as mundane content as game information.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
|
Salt Foambreaker
Greedy Pirates
23
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 15:13:52 -
[65] - Quote
Bedreddin wrote:Personally I think that there should be consequence for using such means. It's outside the boundaries of the games design. If the aim of the game was to blur the lines to that degree it would have been designed into the mechanics.
I have to agree, I think the entire meta game is a slippery sloop.
What's next, a DOS attack on enemy IP addresses during fleet battles?
|
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
943
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 15:36:18 -
[66] - Quote
Salt Foambreaker wrote:I have to agree, I think the entire meta game is a slippery sloop.
What's next, a DOS attack on enemy IP addresses during fleet battles?
Same as that Wolfhammer dude, you are taking very big leaps. There is a difference between logging IP addresses to identify and remove security issues from your own IT infrastructure and actually attacking that IP. The former is just a normal everyday occurance and a necessity for most online services, the latter is a crime.
And yes, the IP address should not have been broadcast to the alliance. But again - it also should not have gotten leaked to the public from there.
So, to all you whiteknights, if you feel you need to criticize Twizzlespark for making the IP address known to the alliance, you need to criticize the guys leaking from there and Lemba for making private conversations public in the first place as well, because all of that is morally questionable at best.
And after all - Lemba did know this would happen, if he engaged in this activity outside of the confines of the game. He did it nonetheless. I wouldn't be surprised if he himself didn't even have a problem with this. So cut the hypocrisy and defending people who don't need to be defended.
And to the GRR GONS HAT GONS crowd: Please have a look at your "allies" and think twice about how Goons are supposed to be any worse. |
W33b3l
The Scope
Gallente Federation
76
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 15:39:20 -
[67] - Quote
Just to be clear. The spy in question had two different Reddit accounts. One as the main and one as the spy. He fell for the click bait with both accounts and the ip addys where matched?
Not sure how you know wich two accounts where using the same ip address that popped up twice in both lists of all the people who clicked on it, kind of courioise for curiosities sake, but if that's what happened it was completely out of game. Asking for peoples up addresses in game or hacking the game server would be another story.
Its up to CCP I suppose to decide if that's ok or not. All they would have to do is add it to the EULA that you agree not to do it. Would be impossible to trace if you where quiet about it though. Shady as hell sure, but not against the EULA.
Ddos attacks on known people to lag out there client however, if happening, need to be dealt with via the ban hammer. |
Cherril
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 15:41:28 -
[68] - Quote
Salt Foambreaker wrote:Bedreddin wrote:Personally I think that there should be consequence for using such means. It's outside the boundaries of the games design. If the aim of the game was to blur the lines to that degree it would have been designed into the mechanics. I have to agree, I think the entire meta game is a slippery sloop. What's next, a DOS attack on enemy IP addresses during fleet battles?
uh... even in my 0.01 true sec country (D)DOS is illegal.. we have one cute "expert" in law-enforcement services trying to put botnets that attacked several government agencies in jail. Not a bit of progress though.
I've read The Mittani's declarations and i'm pretty sure Imperium will fight well and dirty with attackers, but with traitors they'll be merciless. If you are not Imperium traitor you'll safe. If you are - i do not want to know how far Imperium would go to "punish" you.
understand me well - i totally condemn Imperium strategies and tactics to ruin everyone else's game. Apparently CCP approves that so either adapt, or leave - there are alternatives. |
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
943
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 15:50:58 -
[69] - Quote
W33b3l wrote:Just to be clear. The spy in question had two different Reddit accounts. One as the main and one as the spy. He fell for the click bait with both accounts and the ip addys where matched?
Not sure how you know wich two accounts where using the same ip address that popped up twice in both lists of all the people who clicked on it, kind of courioise for curiosities sake, but if that's what happened it was completely out of game. Asking for peoples up addresses in game or hacking the game server would be another story.
Its up to CCP I suppose to decide if that's ok or not. All they would have to do is add it to the EULA that you agree not to do it. Would be impossible to trace if you where quiet about it though. Shady as hell sure, but not against the EULA.
Ddos attacks on known people to lag out there client however, if happening, need to be dealt with via the ban hammer.
The leaker account on reddit got sent a link to a supposedly interesting document on the goonfleet server. The IP address accessing said document afterwards could be identified as the one belonging to a member registered on the goonfleet webservices. So, you are right - this all happened outside of the game. The logs the spy was leaking were acquired outside of the game (Goonfleet Jabber, mainly), he made them public outside of the game (reddit) and he was identified outside of the game. No hacking involved, just normal IT work.
The only thing that happened inside the game was, that a director involved in this case made the mistake to send that log to his Alliance, which may be in violation of the ToS/EULA (too lazy to look up if it is) and may have personal consequences for him.
So, most of the drama happened outside of the game and should be of no concern for both the Eve community and CCP.
The whole talk about hacking and DDoS attacks is a complete grr-goons-hyperbole, because nothing of that sort happened. |
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
722
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 16:16:08 -
[70] - Quote
CCP, please protect our spies from the consequences of their actions. It's so mean to call them out by finding their real identities!
For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/
Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
|
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
329
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 16:36:11 -
[71] - Quote
Look at the comments above..the fact that it's happened out of the game means lines have been crossed, or at the best blurred.
It seems to me that it's a dangerous road to tread. |
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
722
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 16:43:31 -
[72] - Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_CyrpCnksM&nohtml5=False
For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/
Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
|
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
943
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 16:47:59 -
[73] - Quote
Drago Shouna wrote:Look at the comments above..the fact that it's happened out of the game means lines have been crossed, or at the best blurred.
It seems to me that it's a dangerous road to tread.
By that logic, forums, Teamspeak/Mumble/Ventrilo, e-mails and instant messengers cross the line, as people use those to talk about and coordinate their actions in the game, outside of the game. In years past, players have been scammed on voice comms outside of the game, were made to sing on Teamspeak in order to save their ships, were alliances forged and destroyed outside of the game. It's what people tend to call the "Metagame" and it's what many people genuinely love about Eve. |
W33b3l
The Scope
Gallente Federation
76
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 16:55:06 -
[74] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:W33b3l wrote:Just to be clear. The spy in question had two different Reddit accounts. One as the main and one as the spy. He fell for the click bait with both accounts and the ip addys where matched?
Not sure how you know wich two accounts where using the same ip address that popped up twice in both lists of all the people who clicked on it, kind of courioise for curiosities sake, but if that's what happened it was completely out of game. Asking for peoples up addresses in game or hacking the game server would be another story.
Its up to CCP I suppose to decide if that's ok or not. All they would have to do is add it to the EULA that you agree not to do it. Would be impossible to trace if you where quiet about it though. Shady as hell sure, but not against the EULA.
Ddos attacks on known people to lag out there client however, if happening, need to be dealt with via the ban hammer. The leaker account on reddit got sent a link to a supposedly interesting document on the goonfleet server. The IP address accessing said document afterwards could be identified as the one belonging to a member registered on the goonfleet webservices. So, you are right - this all happened outside of the game. The logs the spy was leaking were acquired outside of the game (Goonfleet Jabber, mainly), he made them public outside of the game (reddit) and he was identified outside of the game. No hacking involved, just normal IT work. The only thing that happened inside the game was, that a director involved in this case made the mistake to send that log to his Alliance, which may be in violation of the ToS/EULA (too lazy to look up if it is) and may have personal consequences for him. So, most of the drama happened outside of the game and should be of no concern for both the Eve community and CCP. The whole talk about hacking and DDoS attacks is a complete grr-goons-hyperbole, because nothing of that sort happened.
Oh so a private message was sent to someone already suspected so you knew it was that person who owned the IP. Gotcha, that fills in some blanks for me. If anything that would be Reddit who would be responsible for letting it happen not CCP. Although nothing illegal was done with the information so why would they care. I'm really surprised the person was lax enough to get caught that way.
I understand why people don't like it though. Since its a game it would be nice if everything we do stays in game for balance and content reasons. Problem is that we already use more info out of game then we do in game like EFT and DOTLAN for example, so where do you draw the line of what's ok and what isn't. As long as your not using it to attack alts in game for revenge Its not really a problem. Its not like anyone is back tracing client connections from the server. Its good to know people do this type of thing for Intel reasons though.
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
943
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 17:04:34 -
[75] - Quote
I think, the main reason this thread exists is people escalating over scary IT words they don't understand.
If it has something to do with IP addresses, it must be hacking, right? |
W33b3l
The Scope
Gallente Federation
76
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 17:27:38 -
[76] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:I think, the main reason this thread exists is people escalating over scary IT words they don't understand.
If it has something to do with IP addresses, it must be hacking, right?
Those people also think that DDos groups are hackers. Drives me crazy when they call them that.
Every time one of us posts something here our current IP address is logged on the web server. |
Ashterothi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
376
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 18:24:07 -
[77] - Quote
The goons are not CCPs mess, they are ours. We are cleaning them up and we are using tactics that are tolerable (to the extent of my knowledge).
I would much prefer to see this play out, then to see it struck down because the Imperium get taken out by CCP over tactics that have been in use for as long as we have had wars.
Listen to Hydrostatic Podcast for all your Empyrean needs!
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Anke Eyrou
Hades Sisters
65
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 18:45:49 -
[78] - Quote
What you have to remember is that wars get real messy and dirty really fast; you do what ever it takes to make sure you win them.
GSF have always played the metagame and always will.
I expect to get this post deleted or locked. So much for freedom of expression.
|
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
15044
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 18:50:37 -
[79] - Quote
And people wonder why i dont post on reddit.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
943
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 18:51:01 -
[80] - Quote
W33b3l wrote:I understand why people don't like it though. Since its a game it would be nice if everything we do stays in game for balance and content reasons. Problem is that we already use more info out of game then we do in game like EFT and DOTLAN for example, so where do you draw the line of what's ok and what isn't
Not only do we use these out of game resources, we need them. Take away all those nifty API tools and websites - EFT, Pyfa, Evemon, Eve-Central as well as Forums, IMs, voice tools and there wouldn't be much left of the game. Almost everything that happens in the game involves out of game communication. Imagine Fleet battles solely using Eve Voice, or several thousand man strong alliances coordinate via ingame mails and bulletins. The tools the game provides do not suffice to do these things.
Now, since we have all this infrastructure outside of the game, people will attack or abuse it, like Lemba did here, and the owners will defend against it.
I actually find this rather nice. It's this whole metagame that makes Eve. On it's own - Eve is an incomplete and pretty ****** game.
And in the end, I'd say no koreans were hurt in the making of this drama. Lemba probably has a different IP by now. |
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
329
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 19:41:22 -
[81] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Drago Shouna wrote:Look at the comments above..the fact that it's happened out of the game means lines have been crossed, or at the best blurred.
It seems to me that it's a dangerous road to tread. By that logic, forums, Teamspeak/Mumble/Ventrilo, e-mails and instant messengers cross the line, as people use those to talk about and coordinate their actions in the game, outside of the game. In years past, players have been scammed on voice comms outside of the game, were made to sing on Teamspeak in order to save their ships, were alliances forged and destroyed outside of the game. It's what people tend to call the "Metagame" and it's what many people genuinely love about Eve.
And players were banned for it..
Singing logs, or publishing ip addresses, where's the difference?
Call it what you want, it doesn't change what I said. |
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 21:57:42 -
[82] - Quote
Drago Shouna wrote:Neuntausend wrote:Drago Shouna wrote:Look at the comments above..the fact that it's happened out of the game means lines have been crossed, or at the best blurred.
It seems to me that it's a dangerous road to tread. By that logic, forums, Teamspeak/Mumble/Ventrilo, e-mails and instant messengers cross the line, as people use those to talk about and coordinate their actions in the game, outside of the game. In years past, players have been scammed on voice comms outside of the game, were made to sing on Teamspeak in order to save their ships, were alliances forged and destroyed outside of the game. It's what people tend to call the "Metagame" and it's what many people genuinely love about Eve. And players were banned for it.. Singing logs, or publishing ip addresses, where's the difference? Call it what you want, it doesn't change what I said.
People were banned over the Bonus Room stupidity, but not because it was out of game but because it was ruled as harassment.
Just because it's out of game does not mean a line has been crossed (which is what you claimed).
Stuff happens outside the game all the time and it's perfectly fine.
CCP Gargant singing for his Legion for example:
http://youtu.be/UtItWL6GfSM
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Imalia Bloodlines
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
13
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 22:44:19 -
[83] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:OK So this from the Reddit thread is why I tell people "DON'T CLICK ON A DAMNED THING". Quote:This morning, with a cleverly crafted trap, we now have identified the spy. Lemba is the spy. It breaks my heart to say this, but the proof is overwhelming. We sent bait link to the leakerGÇÖs reddit account with a text file hosted from our side. When Lemba logged into the leaker account and clicked on the linkGÇÖs text file and accessed the text file, we found the IP address to match that of LembaGÇÖs. HereGÇÖs the proof. It's more than doxxing/IP risks here. More than some spy being hunted either. In fact, lay that aside. This is something for super pilots and FCs. Roughly 6 years ago I recall a story from another player who described doing some haunting of locals in some nullsec pocket. I don't recall the details except that his target was a Russian corp. Anyway, they claimed they could get him, which he denied. But later during the usual cat and mouse fu that is Eve Online, the connection to the server got a bit funny. Right before it happened the last thing to appear in local in the soon-to-be-frozen up client was "here goes" or something like that. Now I'm no wizard of networks, but I know enough from my days protecting servers from Chinese hackers (seriously, real hackers. In China). If someone gets your IP number, they can run a trace. This is not so much cop stuff. Unless you have Eve installed on a web server they won't get all the way to the end, but they don't need to. They need only know what nodes you are using, which "big switch" you are getting to the Eve server to. It depends on your service. For example, I used to live at a place that had spotty cable internet as it was remote, and I could run a trace from there to my office VPN and see what nodes I was using (helpful to know if your connection is good for an online meeting with streaming video that you want to ensure is OK for it). But at times I used a 4G Wireless system connected to my computer and running the same trace revealed entirely different paths. The 4G account is from an entirely different company. And then..... well there are "services" you can get anonymously which can run a DDOS on just about any address you give them. I don't know any personally, and I won't go beyond this point because IMO I'm on the verge of going from geeksplaining network 101 to game exploit. Basically, the IP number can be used to shut down a connection, something that can be a really bad deal for an FC or super pilot. Only a couple of times over the years I have heard of this happening in Eve. If this "war" results in this kind of activity, not only should those engaging in it be permabanned from the game, but they should also face criminal charges in their home jurisdiction. But in the end, if internet spaceships so srs that people have to resort to these tactics, then suddenly I don't feel like playing this game any more if that's the kind of people who play it. Hopefully CCP takes a good hard look into this matter and other matters like this because there are plenty of sore losers to go around.
Today I was watching stream on twitch by Zarvox Toral, great guy, very down to earth, helps newbies etc...He was running Interceptor fleet.
At one point, they were about to engage caracals and someone DDOS'd his speak service, nobody could hear his order, bunch of ceptors died. I really really can not believe that CCP would tolerate something like this. We are not talking about game any more, this can cause serious damage IRL!!!
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March rabbit
Mosquito Squadron
1731
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 23:14:06 -
[84] - Quote
Imalia Bloodlines wrote:At one point, they were about to engage caracals and someone DDOS'd his speak service, nobody could hear his order, bunch of ceptors died. I really really can not believe that CCP would tolerate something like this. We are not talking about game any more, this can cause serious damage IRL!!!
TBH it does not look like anyone could really do DDoS against bunch of interceptors.... You sure it was not some 'natural' internet problem?
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Yael Capra Nubiana
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 23:51:39 -
[85] - Quote
That's why i love EVE.
Spies, spyhunters, traitors, lies, heroes ... and tears.
Forget Shakespeare, forget the Nibelungenlied, forgett the clash of civilizations, forget all that, just look at EVE.
A big War, a clash between two giant powers is going on, and we will got alot similary things during the next months.
Remember Churchill said on May 13. 1940: ".... I would say to the House as I said to those who have joined this government: I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat. We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many, many long months of struggle and of suffering. .... You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word: Victory. Victory at all costsGÇöVictory in spite of all terrorGÇöVictory, however long and hard the road may be, for without victory there is no survival.
Who will win?
Plexing is pure self en-slavement.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
15044
|
Posted - 2016.04.10 01:46:20 -
[86] - Quote
Yael Capra Nubiana wrote:
Who will win?
better question , who will give a **** if people are getting doxed over it.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
|
d0cTeR9
House of the Dead Monkey
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
317
|
Posted - 2016.04.10 01:51:48 -
[87] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Is that what EVE Online is about? This isn't the first time certain members of this group have been involved in these tactics...but it should be their last.
Where is the limit? None apparently. Every time we go out, we have our TS server nuked, our forum attacked, the list goes on. Most third party services become unusable. It's like that every time when dealing with certain large entities in the game.
Been around since the beginning.
|
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2016.04.10 02:30:34 -
[88] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Yael Capra Nubiana wrote:
Who will win?
better question , who will give a **** if people are getting doxed over it.
No one is getting doxxed. |
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri
New Order Logistics
CODE.
427
|
Posted - 2016.04.10 08:52:03 -
[89] - Quote
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Yael Capra Nubiana wrote:
Who will win?
better question , who will give a **** if people are getting doxed over it. No one is getting doxxed.
Yet. |
Imalia Bloodlines
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
13
|
Posted - 2016.04.10 09:08:07 -
[90] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Imalia Bloodlines wrote:At one point, they were about to engage caracals and someone DDOS'd his speak service, nobody could hear his order, bunch of ceptors died. I really really can not believe that CCP would tolerate something like this. We are not talking about game any more, this can cause serious damage IRL!!! TBH it does not look like anyone could really do DDoS against bunch of interceptors.... You sure it was not some 'natural' internet problem?
No everything was working fine except when he told them to jump the gate, suddenly nobody could hear him. Then he fleet warped a few player while the rest was 1 system behind. Then they started to jump 1 by 1 and die because nobody could hear him. Only at that one point, stream was running for 6 hours without any problems except for that instance. |
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2016.04.10 09:15:56 -
[91] - Quote
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote:Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Yael Capra Nubiana wrote:
Who will win?
better question , who will give a **** if people are getting doxed over it. No one is getting doxxed. Yet.
Exactly. So nothing wrong.
If someone gets doxxed, then whoever does it should be banned as they breaks the EULA. |
Carn Uta
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
5
|
Posted - 2016.04.10 09:15:57 -
[92] - Quote
Considering I spent an interesting hour or so a couple of weeks ago listening to Marconius Porkbutte explaining to us n00bs all about the meta game of Eve, and how much he enjoyed that side of the game - which of course included all the spying stuff - I find it amusing just how utterly paranoid Goons are about APIs and IPs and so on. I would imagine Porkbutte must be applauding Lemba at this time.
No? |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
EVEolution.
440
|
Posted - 2016.04.10 14:31:37 -
[93] - Quote
Hey OP do you really believe this is just confined to EVE?
because let me tell you, it's not, this type of meta gaming has existed since day 1 in every game i've played online.
the line is drawn where you ask,,, i'd have to say there is no line, farming intel on people on the web is kinda how the web works my pretty confused and innocent friend
but hey,, it's ok, the sky won't fall, the world will keep turning and all is just feckin dandy in the universe.
pro tip: if you spy, be good at it. if you don't, well you have nothing to worry about. |
Mario Putzo
1624
|
Posted - 2016.04.10 17:27:01 -
[94] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Hey OP do you really believe this is just confined to EVE? because let me tell you, it's not, this type of meta gaming has existed since day 1 in every game i've played online. the line is drawn where you ask,,, i'd have to say there is no line, farming intel on people on the web is kinda how the web works my pretty confused and innocent friend but hey,, it's ok, the sky won't fall, the world will keep turning and all is just feckin dandy in the universe. pro tip: if you spy, be good at it. if you don't, well you have nothing to worry about.
Not talking about they spying, or the counter spying, im talking about sending an alliance wide mail, followed by a coalition wide ping, containing information that could be used to negatively impact the guy. I think spying/counter intel is great, I think sharing such info directly to 17K/40K (respectively) is out of line, and CCP does have the authority to do something about it because that sharing happened through an in game EVE mail.
I have nothing against someone running counter intel, its the stuff afterwards like what happened to Manfred Sidious for example. There needs to be a line, and some **** shouldn't be brought into the game or publicly broadcast. Had someone said "We know this is the guy because we tracked his IP through a bait link" instead of here is the guys full IP information see we have proof, I probably wouldn't give a ****.
Its like Bonus room, it was never a problem the 2 years it ran, until one guy spoke up about it then it became a problem. If no one raises the question, we may never know the answer. Frankly there is a huge difference between tracking an IP, and broadcasting said IP to essentially everyone in EVE. We already know there is at least one scumbag in this game (Digital Ebola) who would abuse such information to the furthest extent of his abilities. |
000Hunter000
Missiles 'R' Us
53
|
Posted - 2016.04.10 19:58:54 -
[95] - Quote
Just one sentence...
GET... A... LIFE!!! |
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
1072
|
Posted - 2016.04.10 21:46:59 -
[96] - Quote
pathetic even for goons
Typhoon Fleet Issue SOE skin for the win.
|
d0cTeR9
House of the Dead Monkey
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
317
|
Posted - 2016.04.10 22:33:24 -
[97] - Quote
Imalia Bloodlines wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:OK So this from the Reddit thread is why I tell people "DON'T CLICK ON A DAMNED THING".
Today I was watching stream on twitch by Zarvox Toral, great guy, very down to earth, helps newbies etc...He was running Interceptor fleet. At one point, they were about to engage caracals and someone DDOS'd his speak service, nobody could hear his order, bunch of ceptors died. I really really can not believe that CCP would tolerate something like this. We are not talking about game any more, this can cause serious damage IRL!!!
It's quite sad and frustrating, but guess what... PL has done it on a few occasions (by PL, meaning someone in the alliance, someone that likes you guys... someone did it for your guys benefit). I think most big alliances have done it/does it... its quite... pathetic but has become somewhat the 'norm' in this game... Wasn't like that when i played more years ago...
Been around since the beginning.
|
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
200
|
Posted - 2016.04.11 15:32:59 -
[98] - Quote
What is the IP address for https://www.themittani.com/ ?
Hydrostatic Podcast First class listening of all things EVE
Check out the Eve-Prosper for your market updates!
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ISD Buldath
ISD STAR
360
|
Posted - 2016.04.11 16:03:04 -
[99] - Quote
Quote: 35. Posting of chat logs outside the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited.
The posting of chat logs between player parties is prohibited on all forum channels of the EVE Online forums, with the exception of the Crime & Punishment Channel where they can be posted as part of stories in the Pirate Story Thread.
Specific rules regarding the omission of pilot names apply in this instance. Further details can be found in the rules stickies in the Crime & Punishment forum channel.
After careful consideration, I have decided to Lock this Thread, as Removing the content Of the Above posted rule would completely lynch the post and make its Point null and void. Topics Like these also Stir a Whole load of other issues regarding Doxxing, personal Information and so On. I Urge that Those who feel effected by this File a support ticket regarding it and allow a Member of CCP Staff to take a closer look.
~ISD Buldath
Commander
Support, Training and Resources Division
Interstellar Services Department
I do not respond to EVE-Mails regarding forum moderation.
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