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Why Titans are going to kill Eve

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Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.02.15 13:36:00 - [1] Offense: A remote, insta-death for most ships, very large area of effect weapon. The very idea of this stink of overpoweredness. It's avoidable on theory, but when you put this in practice it's a mite harder to do: As Oveur said, right now, if you want to achieve anything, you need fleets of hundreds of ships. That means crowded grids, which in turn mean horrendous lag, and lag is the Doomsday's best friend. One titan is relatively manageable, but what happens when you have several of them lurking around? Defense: CCP was once asked how the Devs would kill a Titan, and someone (Jiekon, if I remember correctly), answered this: If the Titan is alone and away from a POS: At least 10 carriers full of neutralizers, to kill enough of the titan cap to prevent a cynoing out after one minute. 2 nano Nalfgars 10 dreads in siege mode This is pretty interesting as an answer. So, IF the Titan is alone (a very big IF), and away from a POS (another big IF), then it takes 10 capital ships with a special fit AND the titan not cynoing out within the first minute (yet another big if), then 2 capital ships using a fit that is commonly accepted as overpowered and FOTM (nano ships) to bump the Titan (wait, bumping is a encouraged by CCP to replace warp scramblers now? And what if the Titan is half-way within a pos shield, how will you bump it out?), and then 10 dreads is siege mod to kill the titan within a reasonnable time frame. Assuming that dreads in siege mod can hit a titan being bumped around... Tbh, this tactic is so irrealist, and so riddled with failure possibilities that it's a joke. For all intents and purposes, they could as well be indestructible, and even some mothership pilots agree that the total immunity to scramblers and disruptors is way overpowered. CCP, you turned Eve into a "who gets more titans" game, and I doubt that's what you wanted. So, how about you rebalance them before they have too much an impact on 0.0? Suggestions: Either this: - Remove Doomsday Devices altogether. The very concept of death to many with a single button is crap when used in a multiplayer game. - Change the DD operation skill to a 20-40% damage bonus, per level, to XL weapons on titans. - Give Titans a big resist bonus, but remove their immunity to scrambling. Make them the beasts of the front lines, but beasts that need to actually take risks if they want to wreck havoc. - Remove the ability to destroy interdictor bubbles with smartbombs Or that: - Remotely activating a doomsday while covered by a fleet and a POS, and going back inside the pos shield seconds after, is ridiculous. Warping in, activating the doomsday, and warping out just after, while a bit more ballsy in appearance, is also just about impossible to stop. To require titan pilots to actually have some guts, make titans unable to move, jump or be bumped for 10 minutes after a doomsday has been activated. Before some smartass start babbling about whining, being killed by a DDD, or that sort of crap, I'd think exactly the same if "I" were a titan pilot. I don't care much about politics, but having a handfull of ships becoming a decisive factor in 0.0 wars (the core of what Eve is all about), is just as bad for the future of Eve than the recent Dev misconduct. It's just more subtle... Titans will kill the possibility for small alliances that are ready to fight for a part of 0.0, to wrestle control of a region from a big alliance that can bring several Titans on them. That will mean more nap blocks, less conflicts but bigger conflicts (less fun, more lag), and a polarization of 0.0 politics that will only get bitter with time... ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types.
Dawa Za	Posted - 2007.02.15 13:55:00 - [2] I quite agree with this, the only way to kill a titan currently is by the pilot making a really stupid mistake, 'cause if the titan's alone and 10+ capital ships turn up it's obviously gonna cyno immediately. I think a good balancing would be allow the titan to keep the immunity to EW but make a new high-fitting req module with the ability to stop cynoing which can't be blocked. This would need to be a difficult to use and fit (needing multiple copies of this module to stop a cyno) to avoid making it too easy to hold a titan, so basically a ship with one of these on wouldn't have room to do much else. Alternatively make a new T2 ship (a sort of anti-titan tackler, maybe T2 BS!) which can fit this module and other anti-capital ship stuff. --- Originally by: Dvaren Bouncing around a system, totally immune to probes or pursuit, while attacking the target of your choice with no accountability...is not in the spirit of pirating.
Redback911	Posted - 2007.02.15 14:04:00 - [3] Leave the EW immunity and just make em vulnerable to normal scrams. Sounds reasonable to me. As for the doomsday weapon - get rid of it and up their normal gun damage, or give em a seige mode.
JTKevin89 Gallente Dark-Rising	Posted - 2007.02.15 14:05:00 - [4] hows about learn to deal with it? ever pop into peoples head that the time and money put into these things should give the titan the right to ALMOST me invincible. i get everybody bithing about nano ships... learn to deal with it... get a couple of rapiers/huggins and kill it and stop whining!
Rich Customs	Posted - 2007.02.15 14:05:00 - [5] They Titans are the devs answer to BLOB's. The doomsday weapons is meant to reduce the effectiveness of BLOBs. Why? Because BLOBs cause lag. Any weapon in EVE have a counter - and the counter to the DD weapons is simply not to make to big blobs. It is very expensive to fire a DD weapon. You dont do it unless it kills a lot of ships. And once it is fired, the enemy know they have 1 hour before it can be fired again. Anyway a ship costing 100 million ISK should be pretty hard to kill.
Calth Ragnarr mega mining corporation	Posted - 2007.02.15 14:10:00 - [6] Originally by: Shadowsword ... At least 10 carriers full of neutralizers, to kill enough of the titan cap to prevent a cynoing out after one minute. 2 nano Nalfgars 10 dreads in siege mode ... so you need 10750mil + 121600mil =~ 27bil in ships to kill a 50bil ship ? (mineral cost) Seems ok for me
Marquis Dean Repo Industries	Posted - 2007.02.15 14:10:00 - [7] Titans will kill Eve... BoB will kill Eve... BoD will kill Eve... Privateers will kill Eve... Nanoships will kill Eve... Lag will kill Eve... Jita will kill Eve... Whining will kill Eve... It always makes me smile when people think the devs give a rats ass what you think about how overpowered Titans are. Maybe they are so tough because they're so unbelieveably expensive, because they take forever to train for, because of a whole number of reasons. At the end of the day, the devs know better that you. A POS, + a Titan + a support fleet = years of skill training, mining, mission running, and effort. It makes a wacky kind of sense that all of the above should just be erased by a few dreads in the right place at the right time. ------ ------ Originally by: Crag Heyder I'm not talking FPS here, it's SPF.
Jehovah Cooper Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.15 14:11:00 - [8] Maybe the OP would post this if he were a titan pilot, but fact is that he is in a theater where he is facing two titans and his side has 0 there. TBH, I've had some of the same thoughts after seeing what D2's Erebus could do to us. It wasn't just being hit with the DD, its all the things you can't/won't do or will treat more cautiously knowing that it is around. But its pretty cool when the Titan is on your side ;) But at the same time, the Titan was introduced when, almost a year ago and there are still only four confirmed ones in game, with a couple more confirmed cooking and almost certainly a couple more unrevealed as yet. So we've got maybe 8 Titans by its anniversary, and somehow its overpowered? You have to factor the cost and organizational capability required to build this thing. You must build an empire first. The Titan has to be awesome, and it has to be damn near indestructible. But, I am sure something will be introduced at some point to help counter it in some ways but it cannot be something that makes these ships as vulnerable as a regular capital ship. And the DD was always conceived as just that - although maybe you are right it should have some other drawback that would limit its usage even more.
Jon Hawkes The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2007.02.15 14:17:00 - [9] I have no problem with the Doomsday Devices, but think that they should only be able to be activated by the Titan itself, not as a remote Cyno field. That way, the Titan has to at least show up to the battlefield before it can unleash merry Hell.
Mog Carns Gallente Industrial Warlords United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.02.15 14:18:00 - [10] And yet, people do make mistakes. What is theoretically impossible on paper happens quite frequently. I have played a PvP space combat game in which the only ship able to stop warping was the interdictor, a glass hulled, slow, undergunned, and weakly powered vessel that could not keep the extremely short range interdiction device running for very long. Bumping was impossible. Shift+J instantly jumped you away, there was no need to align. In short, it was very easy to get away. And still, people got kills. People mess up. I am sorry you have gotten spoiled. In EVE, when two ships get within 20km of each other, it is almost certainly going to end in the death of one of the two of them. This may be the the single greatest complaint about nanoships... sometimes, they can get away. This seems to be viewed as a major sin in the eyes of the greater EVE gank community. The Titan is a vessel that has that ability inherently, and this causes you greif. Suck it up. It may not be somethng you can plan on, it is not something you can decide to go out and do some day, but Titans will be lost, occasionaly. Because people mess up. Clueless Noob
Sinder Ohm Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.15 14:23:00 - [11] Originally by: Rich Customs Anyway a ship costing 100 million ISK should be pretty hard to kill. was that a typo ? or do you have connections that can organize a titan for 100 mill ? Personaly I find the Imunity too much rather give it an inate warp core strength lets say 30 or 40, and firing a DDD through a cyno field should have a decent time delay, or no delay at all when not fired remotely and ffs cloaking devices on a titan are just wrong. These are my personal opinions and are open to discussion if you plan to flame or insult over this post, save your breath. Originally by: Blind Man okies so liek when u warp in on them u shod target them... and stuff k.then u FIRE ZE MISSILES
Niestrenna	Posted - 2007.02.15 14:25:00 - [12] Originally by: Rich Customs They Titans are the devs answer to BLOB's. The doomsday weapons is meant to reduce the effectiveness of BLOBs. Why? Because BLOBs cause lag. Any weapon in EVE have a counter - and the counter to the DD weapons is simply not to make to big blobs. It is very expensive to fire a DD weapon. You dont do it unless it kills a lot of ships. And once it is fired, the enemy know they have 1 hour before it can be fired again. Anyway a ship costing 100 million ISK should be pretty hard to kill. Yep, an answer to counter blobs, but yet blobs still remain, no matter the conditions. A better answer to Blobs will appear on the day they make territorial combat more complex. It's been mentionned in past blogs, the ability to make small roaming squads useful in the bigger plan by disabling enemy's structures and doing all kinds of raids, making a real campaign more than just a clash of blobs ... Here lies the true answer !! Oh, and I suspect a typo or wtb Titan for 100M :)
LeviUK hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.02.15 14:26:00 - [13] Originally by: JTKevin89 hows about learn to deal with it? ever pop into peoples head that the time and money put into these things should give the titan the right to ALMOST me invincible. i get everybody bithing about nano ships... learn to deal with it... get a couple of rapiers/huggins and kill it and stop whining! How many titans have you killed? I actually agree with the OP (and no, I've never been killed by a titan). Yes, while the sheer cost and effort required to create these behemoths should make them difficult to kill, they are bordering on invincible at present (save for CYVOK-style pilot errors) which is just wrong. The very concept of the DD completely destroys the traditional battleship fleet which is all very well for those that fly cap ships, but makes attacking any large alliance impractical for the smaller corps and alliances. And this in turn reinforces the position of the Titan-owning alliances which enables them to build more and so on. The strong get stronger etc. There are what, 5 titans in game now? Look ahead slightly to a possible time when most medium to large size alliance have a titan - consider the super-rich merc alliances owning one (MC is the first that springs to mind) - who really wants to bring a battleship fleet to those fights? When capitals first came out, I had a bad feeling that the game was heading in the wrong direction, catering mainly for the billionaires, but admittedly Carriers and Dreadnoughts have settled into their roles quite well - they are still quite powerful while still being killable by a moderate size gang... but when you're up against a Titan/MS fleet, it's a very different story - it can only go one way. Perhaps I'm wrong and we'll see a Titan kill in the coming weeks but having already tried against a Mothership twice now in a large fleet, I'm fairly skeptical. It's still my belief that the solution is to remove the immunity to scrambling and instead, give them a high warp strength (for example, 20 for motherships and 30 for titans) so that there's more thought required and less pot luck and silly bumping methods. -
6Bagheera9 Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.15 14:28:00 - [14] I think Titans and MSs may need a little bit of nerfing, but its going too far to say that they are killing EvE. Setting up a good DD shot is hard, any well lead fleet will be prepared to warp out should a Cyno go up and any stragglers you may nab may not be worth the cost of firing. My suggestions are as follows: -Titans and MSs can be scrambled, but have an intate warp core strength of 10 and 5 respectively. -The DD weapons cannot be fired inside a POS shield and for that matter, both carriers and MSs should not be able to control or assign fighters while inside a POS either. -Titans should be given a big increase to their conventional weapons damage and tanking abilities so that are like Dreads in siege mode, but without the tracking andexplosion radius/velocity penalty. A bonus to using a siege module might be the best way to do this.
Sedai Hara	Posted - 2007.02.15 14:30:00 - [15] Right.. DDs is a realy nice weapon to clean out teh 200 + man fleets. Buts its needed!! i remember being camped by about 300 hostiles.. all the sudden 250 of them was gone, turns out we had a titan that popped htem, otherwise it would have been impossible to do anything. It is a great faktor to take away these blobs of death!! Now its a bad thing to sit and camp a gate for 1 day adn kill all their POSes as a titan can just blow the sht out of your camp (a good thing!!) Everything in this game needs to have a countermesure! (if you realy wanna kill a titan use *** loads of bubbles! or wait for human error, witch has taken down most things in human history). Guess how much it costs to build/maintain a titan? MUCH!! And just to fire of that DD? MUCH AGAIN! Skills? BPO? jus teh time?? all adds up no 1 year empire noob will get one. And you all that carebear in empire. you have no need of being afraid. Its not the "l33tinstakillerdread" weapon, after HP inscrease it just takes out shileds what i have heard(on capital ships) As teh op said about defence. if your 100 bil + ship would go pop to 5 Battleships. you wouldnt fly one :) ITS THE ULTIMATE BLOB/FLEET KILLING WEAPON! no wrong in that. Cant jump out? last time i checked to do a cyno jump you need like 90% cap.. now no tank on a capital is stable at that. To hold it still.. well see how bob did, waited fo human error. Or bubble it! i dont think the standrad titan has faction smartbombs on it, and put a few large mobile warp disruptors around it and it stays there. No 1 said that you can kill a titan in a twist of a hand. its supposed to be hard to kill! I say dont change them, they are fine as it is(maybe nerf them alittle in the gang bonuses and add some more tank, and keep the MS the gang leader one and titan and anti-blob capital of choice)
MrLobster Cosmic Odyssey Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.15 14:32:00 - [16] Originally by: Redback911 Leave the EW immunity and just make em vulnerable to normal scrams. Sounds reasonable to me. As for the doomsday weapon - get rid of it and up their normal gun damage, or give em a seige mode. A velator scramming a titan sound nice :) ______
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.02.15 14:34:00 - [17] Originally by: Calth Ragnarr so you need 10750mil + 121600mil =~ 27bil in ships to kill a 50bil ship ? (mineral cost) Seems ok for me When you start adding modules to each ship, you'll get much above 27 billions, but that's besides the point... Let me rephrase your argument another way: "so you need 10 pilots + 12 pilots = 22 pilots to kill a pilot? Seems ok for me" Every day there's an hulk getting popped by half a dozen frigs, or a BS destroyed by a trio of ceptors. Ship cost is a balance factor valid only in 1v1 considerations. This is one of the core rules Eve is build on. This is why 4 cruisers are more dangerous to a battleship than another battleship, despite them costing less. The number of active pilots at a given time is a ressource for an alliance, even more than Isks are. That's a concept that a lot of people overlook, but it's there nonetheless. ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types.
Rannoc	Posted - 2007.02.15 14:45:00 - [18] "So, IF the Titan is alone (a very big IF), and away from a POS (another big IF)" Well your very big "if"s are old news now. If I remember correctly this is how ASCN lost their Titan. As I see it, Titans are more status symbol and mobile base then weapon. --R
Wild Rho Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2007.02.15 14:50:00 - [19] I'd rather make some simpler changes. - Giving motherships and titans built in warp stab values (as an example only: motherships +10, titans +20). - Maintain the immunity to other EW. - The doomsday weapon drains 90% of a titans cap when fired (means it can't just fire and jump). - Remove remote DD firing, the titan has to either deploy right to the front line to set it off and put itself in danger or make it possible for people to warp directly to the titan once it's superweapon fires (argument could be it leaves a large enough energy sig like the cyno field that a warp drive can get a fix on it). For the cost, time and effort involved Titans SHOULD be powerful ships. However that power shouldn't come from almost total immunity to being killed (where losing the connection to TQ is a bigger threat than any fleet) but rather from being both a powerful logistical asset (basically a mobile station) with a powerful "shock" weapon (the DD). I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
LeviUK hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.02.15 14:52:00 - [20] Originally by: Rannoc "So, IF the Titan is alone (a very big IF), and away from a POS (another big IF)" Well your very big "if"s are old news now. If I remember correctly this is how ASCN lost their Titan. As I see it, Titans are more status symbol and mobile base then weapon. --R This is why people should think before they post. Firstly, ASCN lost their Titan through the pilot logging with an aggression timer. That mistake is unlikely to ever be repeated and the 'big IF" examples you quoted remain valid. Secondly seeing over 200 kills from one DD makes me wonder if you understand the definition of a weapon. -
Mjojjnir Caldari Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.02.15 15:02:00 - [21] Just to put another idea out there, what about limiting the amount of titans an alliance//corp can have at any given point. I know this would be very hard to implement etc. but it would, to some degree, solve the fear some people have about titans "ruining" EvE.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.02.15 15:07:00 - [22] Originally by: Mjojjnir Just to put another idea out there, what about limiting the amount of titans an alliance//corp can have at any given point. I know this would be very hard to implement etc. but it would, to some degree, solve the fear some people have about titans "ruining" EvE. You'd have some big alliances creating one-man alliances just to field more of them. No, Titans need to be nerfed to the point where they are an asset to an alliance, but not the decisive factor of a war... ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types.
AFTRUNX Caldari Human Liberty Syndicate G.U.A.R.D.	Posted - 2007.02.15 15:12:00 - [23] never fighted vs a TITAN... i like this IDEA... when a TITAN use a DD, they must have a delay in Minutes (like charing the weapon) and after fireing they have a poor defense.. so before fireing he must have enough support.. i think in that way the DD will be used carefull... This makes the Game a little more interesting for the player, because it's more tactical... and the we must wait what we can do with the Boost pills.... It's like Football .. :) stay in defense with all that you have and after the attack rush to the other side... :) It's great to be a Caldari....
Omega Bloodstone Battlestars Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.15 15:13:00 - [24] Ever thought about dropping an additional support fleet of about 15 to 20 NOS Domi s w/ uber tanks on one immidiently after he expended energy fireing the dooms day, and during this time you have the main fleet blowing the hell out of the Titan's counter fleet? I think the one idea was laid out there, but I also think there are MANY more ways than one to skin a Titan
Christopher Dalran	Posted - 2007.02.15 15:17:00 - [25] Its not very common to see a titan flying around so its not unreasonable to expect that nobody has figured out a good way to destroy one. I'd give it a little more time and to be brutally honest i would rather CCP have the difference factions design a ship or module specifically for combating TITANS as opposed to arbitrarily nerfing titans.
Ichabod Crane LFC Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.15 15:39:00 - [26] No controvercial or otherwise change to the game mechanics has ever 'killed' eve, nor do I ever think it will. Only people who ever say that are those with a self serving agenda or no understanding of what they happen to be complaining about. Personally, aside from that annoying dictor/mobile bubble issue, the only thing that stops titans from being easily destroyed is savvy pilots, good tactics and inept offensive forces. As for the doomsday, they require alot of fuel; cant penetrate POS shields; take an hour to recharge and around 15seconds to deploy which gives any fleet thats even half awake a chance to escape unharmed. I call that balanced. A titan is a huge tactical advantage if the alliance knows what its doing and uses it effectively, simply having access to a doomsday weapon does not give you an automatic win. IMO if an alliance wants to commit resources and build several under the assumption that it will increase their firepower/tactical potential then there should be no reason to stop them from doing so based on the assumption that lots of titans will break the game. I seem to remember someone said the same thing about dreadnoughts and carriers once. -
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.02.15 15:53:00 - [27] Stop blobbing?
Omega Bloodstone Battlestars Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.15 15:55:00 - [28] Originally by: Ichabod Crane No controvercial or otherwise change to the game mechanics has ever 'killed' eve, nor do I ever think it will. Only people who ever say that are those with a self serving agenda or no understanding of what they happen to be complaining about. Personally, aside from that annoying dictor/mobile bubble issue, the only thing that stops titans from being easily destroyed is savvy pilots, good tactics and inept offensive forces. As for the doomsday, they require alot of fuel; cant penetrate POS shields; take an hour to recharge and around 15seconds to deploy which gives any fleet thats even half awake a chance to escape unharmed. I call that balanced. A titan is a huge tactical advantage if the alliance knows what its doing and uses it effectively, simply having access to a doomsday weapon does not give you an automatic win. IMO if an alliance wants to commit resources and build several under the assumption that it will increase their firepower/tactical potential then there should be no reason to stop them from doing so based on the assumption that lots of titans will break the game. I seem to remember someone said the same thing about dreadnoughts and carriers once. Oh god, I have to agree with an LV pilot...okay, here goes...QFT But seriously well put and I agree. See ya in space
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.02.15 15:58:00 - [29] Originally by: Ichabod Crane No controvercial or otherwise change to the game mechanics has ever 'killed' eve, nor do I ever think it will. Only people who ever say that are those with a self serving agenda or no understanding of what they happen to be complaining about. I know about titans more than most, espescially the part about having hostiles titans in local. And you should refrain from using the "personal agenda" argument on a whim, because the same argument could be throwed right back at you. So let's leave politics in the COAD forum, ok? Originally by: Ichabod Crane As for the doomsday, they require alot of fuel; cant penetrate POS shields; take an hour to recharge and around 15seconds to deploy which gives any fleet thats even half awake a chance to escape unharmed. I call that balanced. Yes, and switching ammos takes 10 seconds in the middle of a fleet battle, right? Read what I wrote about lag... Originally by: Ichabod Crane A titan is a huge tactical advantage if the alliance knows what its doing and uses it effectively, simply having access to a doomsday weapon does not give you an automatic win. Need I remind you what it took for Bob to destroy CYVOK's titan? Are Bob some of those "inept offensive forces" you refered to? ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types.
Nooey Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.15 16:09:00 - [30] Imvho, if a Titan is going to be able to be scrambled, it should have a warp core strength around 100 or so. 10, 20, 30...that's practically nothing. At 30 strength, 3xScrambling Scorps can hold it down. Sure they'll get primaried for doing that, but it's still ludicrous to think 3 Scorps should be able to hold a Titan down for any period of time.

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