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Why Titans are going to kill Eve

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Kharakan Amarr Magnificent Beavers Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.02.15 16:21:00 - [31] Capital warp scramblers? this signature space is claimed in the name of eris, haha I got to him first. neeneer
RedLion Caldari evenova	Posted - 2007.02.15 16:36:00 - [32] Nothing in EVE should be indestructible, NERF!
mallina Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.15 17:23:00 - [33] its EASY to avoid a doomsday blast. 2 1600 plates, 2 EANMs and a DCU on my geddon (standard PVP fit) and i can survive: Avatar blast - 34% armor remaining (confirmed) Erebus blast - 0-15% armor remaining (approx) Leviathan blast - 50-80% structure remaining (approx) Ragnarok blast - 0-20% structure remaining (approx) it really isnt that hard to tank. a Drake could survive a Rag, easily and then theres the 10-15 seconds you have to warp off when you see it
Centurin Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.02.15 17:26:00 - [34] I actually think that creating capital ships in general was a mistake. POS warfare is anything but enjoyable and capital ships only add to that problem. At least CCP understands this and is trying to do something. ----------------------------------------------- "It's great playing Caldari Online, isn't it?" by Xori Ruscuv
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.15 17:52:00 - [35] Originally by: mallina its EASY to avoid a doomsday blast. 2 1600 plates, 2 EANMs and a DCU on my geddon (standard PVP fit) and i can survive: Umm dude? The standard geddon fitting for fleets have 2 RCUs(to support the 7 tachs), 2 HS and 3 TEs, it only has a single DCU or plate for defense. The only fleet BS that might be able to tank one is an abaddon, or perhaps a rokh if it only puts 3 SBs in mid and rest invuls/extenders.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.02.15 18:04:00 - [36] Edited by: madaluap on 15/02/2007 18:02:30 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: mallina its EASY to avoid a doomsday blast. 2 1600 plates, 2 EANMs and a DCU on my geddon (standard PVP fit) and i can survive: Umm dude? The standard geddon fitting for fleets have 2 RCUs(to support the 7 tachs), 2 HS and 3 TEs, it only has a single DCU or plate for defense. The only fleet BS that might be able to tank one is an abaddon, or perhaps a rokh if it only puts 3 SBs in mid and rest invuls/extenders. Well my megathron tanked the doomsdag device pretty easily (testserver), around 90% hull left wasnt such a biggy. Besides maybe its a sign from ccp, to stop the blobtastic fights and STOP moving around in 1 big fleet. The more titans the better. /edit: i was using exactly the same lowslot layout as the guy above. plates, dcu, 2* eam _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.15 18:08:00 - [37] Originally by: madaluap Well my megathron tanked the doomsdag device pretty easily (testserver), around 90% hull left wasnt such a biggy. A DD does about 65k dmg, I seriously doubt you can tank that on a decently setup fleet mega. Perhaps the EM one, but thats it. Quote: Besides maybe its a sign from ccp, to stop the blobtastic fights and STOP moving around in 1 big fleet. The more titans the better. You need the "one big fleet" to support your dreads thats taking down POSes. How else do you propose we take down POSes? Quote: /edit: i was using exactly the same lowslot layout as the guy above. plates, dcu, 2* eam Thats not a fleet setup. It doesnt count.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.02.15 18:09:00 - [38] Originally by: mallina its EASY to avoid a doomsday blast. 2 1600 plates, 2 EANMs and a DCU on my geddon (standard PVP fit) and i can survive: The MINIMAL pack for T2 snipers is 2 sensor booster II, 2 tracking mods and 2 damage mods. If you take any less than that, you just gimped your setup. For an Armageddon, that leaves 1 free slot if you fit 7 tachyons, and 3 free slots if you fit 6 tachyons. With a mix of EANM II and plates and 6 tachyons, you can resist an Avatar blast, but that's about it. For the rest, just hope that you don't lag to much... ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types.
Ferocious FeAr Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.15 18:17:00 - [39] I don't think some you guys realize how hard it is to get one of these ships built. The cost which in itself should be enough to say why titans should stay the way they are. They are the mecca of EVE. Let it stay that way. Don't hate me, learn to love me
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.15 18:18:00 - [40] As for the OP, boost titan damage. Give them 10-12 high slots so they can fit the usual mods+a full rack(8) of XL guns/missiles. Then give them more DPS/gun as a dread in siege(say 200% bonus to damage/lvl?) without the tracking/explosion velocity penalties. Remove the ability to fire the DD remotely, and introduce a new capital scrambler that can scramble titan/ms. Oh and remove cloaks in capitals, its just silly.
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2007.02.15 18:32:00 - [41] Originally by: Gamesguy You need the "one big fleet" to support your dreads thats taking down POSes. How else do you propose we take down POSes? ccp are changing this, they have mentioned this several times. Small gangs will be effective in POS combat. Titans are fine, they can be killed, they just require a fleet designed for it, as it should be.
Ichabod Crane LFC Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.15 18:34:00 - [42] Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Ichabod Crane No controvercial or otherwise change to the game mechanics has ever 'killed' eve, nor do I ever think it will. Only people who ever say that are those with a self serving agenda or no understanding of what they happen to be complaining about. I know about titans more than most, espescially the part about having hostiles titans in local. And you should refrain from using the "personal agenda" argument on a whim, because the same argument could be throwed right back at you. So let's leave politics in the COAD forum, ok? Nothing to do with politics, just simple observation. 99% of the time anyone on this forum who posts wanting a particular race/ship/module boosted or nerfed is doing so because it fits in with their own personal/factional agenda. The argument you've presented so far has done nothing to suggest anything to the contrary. If you want to be taken seriously here then my advice argue your case in a constructive manner, otherwise you're just another whiner making a nerf/boost post because he doesnt like his situation in the game. And FYI: I might be biased in the point I'm trying to argue, but its because I personally disagree with your opinions. Just because we're enemies doesnt mean I'm obliged to oppose you at every turn on the forums. Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Ichabod Crane As for the doomsday, they require alot of fuel; cant penetrate POS shields; take an hour to recharge and around 15seconds to deploy which gives any fleet thats even half awake a chance to escape unharmed. I call that balanced. Yes, and switching ammos takes 10 seconds in the middle of a fleet battle, right? Read what I wrote about lag... Lag is an unfortunate side effect of trying to squeeze too many players onto the same node or grid (and to a greater or lesser extent, the client trying to render all of those ships etc). Getting killed because of lag is not a balance issue, its a lag issue, and therefore should not be taken into account when arguing for or against balancing something. Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Ichabod Crane A titan is a huge tactical advantage if the alliance knows what its doing and uses it effectively, simply having access to a doomsday weapon does not give you an automatic win. Need I remind you what it took for Bob to destroy CYVOK's titan? Are Bob some of those "inept offensive forces" you refered to? BoB couldnt kill the ASCN titan before CYVOK had his little accident because he was smart enough to keep it safe behind starbase forcefields. Some people might call that a lame tactic, personally I call it smart thinking. Good tactics is not about playing fair, its about making the best use of what you have available to you at the time; regardless of whether that happens to be a full defence fleet or just a fixed position like a starbase. IMO Titans, just like nanoships are not unbalanced just because its hard to kill them and they can attack with relatively low risk to themselves. If you find it difficult or impossible to counter them then you simply arent working hard enough. -
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.02.15 18:49:00 - [43] Originally by: Mog Carns I have played a PvP space combat game in which the only ship able to stop warping was the interdictor, a glass hulled, slow, undergunned, and weakly powered vessel that could not keep the extremely short range interdiction device running for very long. Bumping was impossible. Shift+J instantly jumped you away, there was no need to align. In short, it was very easy to get away. And still, people got kills. People mess up. I am sorry you have gotten spoiled. In EVE, when two ships get within 20km of each other, it is almost certainly going to end in the death of one of the two of them. This may be the the single greatest complaint about nanoships... sometimes, they can get away. This seems to be viewed as a major sin in the eyes of the greater EVE gank community. The Titan is a vessel that has that ability inherently, and this causes you greif. Suck it up. It may not be somethng you can plan on, it is not something you can decide to go out and do some day, but Titans will be lost, occasionaly. Because people mess up. Yep, I don't get butthurt over kills that run away. Killmails in general do more harm than good. And this mad desire to see the target burn is a bit embarassing, unless you have a particular reason for it. While I think Eve would be a better game with some changes in how travel worked (or didnt), I won't hold my breath. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender "For all your Material Needs, Vertigo One." Got Alliance? Contact me ingame for alliance creation services.
sr blackout Minmatar	Posted - 2007.02.15 18:49:00 - [44] i would have to say that capital scram is needed, and i would say that the doomsday weapon should have sever side effects after using it... like complete immobility (no way to jump or warp) It is stupid that there is no way to keep one to kill it, that isnt how eve was meant to be, i dont mind if you have to have a capital scram that takes up a pretty good fit, and now the capital ship has to be dealt with by the enemy fleet to save there MS or titan but not how it is now, i still think capital ships are in the testing and they havent been balanced enough, the issues with carriers, ms, titans and so on everyone knows the problems and the imbalances regardless of the ISK amount.
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.02.15 18:55:00 - [45] Edited by: welsh wizard on 15/02/2007 18:54:30 Super-capitals should be prone to capital size scramblers (when/if they're released). Making them prone to normal ship Ewar is a little too harsh. Or at least if they are it should require X amount of normal scramble points to hold it down. Say 15 for a mofo and 20 for a titan.... Originally by: Nooey Imvho, if a Titan is going to be able to be scrambled, it should have a warp core strength around 100 or so. 10, 20, 30...that's practically nothing. At 30 strength, 3xScrambling Scorps can hold it down. Sure they'll get primaried for doing that, but it's still ludicrous to think 3 Scorps should be able to hold a Titan down for any period of time. Lol, if you factor in warp outs and general ship annihilation in the course of a fight you're going to need about 500+ tackling ships (obviously a wild estimate) to permanently keep 100 strength on a Titan. Think about it, 99 points for a single second is enough for it to escape if its aligned. 20 warp strength at the very most, and even thats generous..
Miranda Ceres	Posted - 2007.02.15 19:06:00 - [46] If you look at how ASCN were able to crank out outposts, once the BPOs and infrastructure is in place Titans and motherships are going to be coming out in similar numbers... ASCN would have had 3 titans by now if it weren't for the war (one was destroyed, one handed over to BoB, one location unknown)... I'm sure BoB have got a few more in the oven, and I'd imagine D2 have too. We have truly entered the capital age. The effect of multiple DDs on anything but a capital ship will be destruction. Without a suitable capital fleet, your force is not only impotent, it will be redundant.
Silent Sam Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.02.15 19:06:00 - [47] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: madaluap Well my megathron tanked the doomsdag device pretty easily (testserver), around 90% hull left wasnt such a biggy. A DD does about 65k dmg, I seriously doubt you can tank that on a decently setup fleet mega. Perhaps the EM one, but thats it. Quote: Besides maybe its a sign from ccp, to stop the blobtastic fights and STOP moving around in 1 big fleet. The more titans the better. You need the "one big fleet" to support your dreads thats taking down POSes. How else do you propose we take down POSes? Quote: /edit: i was using exactly the same lowslot layout as the guy above. plates, dcu, 2* eam Thats not a fleet setup. It doesnt count. I think it became valid when titan DD's came into use.
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.02.15 19:06:00 - [48] Edited by: Amy Wang on 15/02/2007 19:06:37 Less blob is good. Problem is, Titans dont fix blobbing itself, they only hinder people opposed with a titan to blob, in a fight where one side has a titan and the other has not, the side with the titan can blob all they like and this blob cant be opposed with an equal blob because it will be killed by the titan and that is the real problem. I hope the revamped stealth bombers with area damage will fix this being the "poor man¦s titan" as far as area damage for blob prevention is concerned. Plus, I agree, warping out is the obvious counter for avoiding the doomsday weapon, but with the usual lag in a fleet battle it just doesnt work that well. The titan remotely fireing the weapon doesnt suffer from that kind of lag or at least not to this extent. Removing the ability to fire the DD remotely would even this out as the titan warping in would suffer from the same lag as the fleet thus making the fireing of the DD as lag dependent as warping out.
Wayward Hooligan Gallente SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.15 20:24:00 - [49] To balance titan and other capital ships in general: Remove Logoffski. You can't hold those ships down if the pilot logs. Log, relog, log, relog, log, relog. Do that for however long it takes to wait out aggro timer then disappear. YARRR!!!
mallina Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.15 23:36:00 - [50] Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: mallina its EASY to avoid a doomsday blast. 2 1600 plates, 2 EANMs and a DCU on my geddon (standard PVP fit) and i can survive: The MINIMAL pack for T2 snipers is 2 sensor booster II, 2 tracking mods and 2 damage mods. If you take any less than that, you just gimped your setup. For an Armageddon, that leaves 1 free slot if you fit 7 tachyons, and 3 free slots if you fit 6 tachyons. With a mix of EANM II and plates and 6 tachyons, you can resist an Avatar blast, but that's about it. For the rest, just hope that you don't lag to much... perhaps if the standard fleet setups are no longer effective then its time to adapt? sacrificing some DPS or range in return for rendering enemy titan useless (and having a whole lot more protection in general) sounds worthwhile to me. sure you might not be able to fit 7 tachs on a Geddon, but its only a tier 1 bs, after all. fit megabeams, or get an apoc/abaddon
The Assyrian Mound of Severed Heads	Posted - 2007.02.16 00:42:00 - [51] People have made similar claims about motherships, and one of those got blown up. It will take a massive capital fleet a huge, dedicated effort to drop a Titan, and that's exactly what it should. Eventually, one will get dropped, and threads like this won't appear much. The real problem is that Eve for a long time did a great job slowing the power curve, just as it should. Until capitals and super-capitals, where the power curve just got very accelerated at the top end. Here's the real problem, long term, for the game.
Kashre Minmatar Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.16 03:17:00 - [52] Even if titans are totally borked (which I'm not prepared to admit), they'll never "kill eve" because 75% of the player base is never going to see one. This game is about more than BOB's alliance wars. +++ "Etiquette is for the Dojo. In war there is only victory or death." - Eiji Yoshikawa
CoLe Blackblood Murder-Death-Kill Blood Raiders Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.16 03:23:00 - [53] Wave Motion Gun should do the trick. ~CoLe Blackblood
Layla Ashley Amarr Children of Avalon	Posted - 2007.02.16 03:24:00 - [54] just jump 200 dreads near the titan, switch them into siege and blow the damn thing up before it's cryno alt is even able to leave the station and activate the jump cryno. and if that does not work, try 500 dreads the next time...
Gouglash Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.16 04:00:00 - [55] I don't think Titans are going to "kill Eve", T20 already did that. Titans are, however, another disincentive to fleet battles. The first real big disincentive to fleet fights was the POS. It's hard to go into range of POSes with deathstar setups, but it's necessary to protect your cap fleets, so it still happens. The DDD is another knock against BS slugging it out. With a Titan in system, your entire fleet has to act much more skittish. Cynos pop up and start making the screen turn weird colours, you've got to either kill it fast or warp out. Killing it fast doesn't always happen, so the most common result is the fleet opposing the DDD warps out. Since cloakers are placed all over the place watching fleets warp from POS to certain objects and so on, it's not hard to see how DDDs can be set off as soon as an opposing fleet is dropping out of warp, making it practically impossible to escape the blast. This will inevitably prevent potential fleet fights from happening. Throw two or three Titans into a system, and the hour-long cooldown period, your ideal window of opportunity for engagement, and it's impossible to have a decent fleet fight going. I don't know that nerfing the EW immunity is the answer. Perhaps longer warmup on the DDD, or lack of ability to activate remotely, or longer cool-down time is the answer. I think something should be changed, though. The Titan DDD is fun for one pilot, and hurts the action content of nearly everyone else in local. Which is fine if your goal is to crush the enemy, but pretty bad if you think shooting people is fun.
Ishtar1 Puppets on Steroids Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.16 04:01:00 - [56] Personaly i saw this in another topic What about a Type of warp scram that can only be fitted on a mother ship or titan I for one would love to see two titans with fleets and caps going at it
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm	Posted - 2007.02.16 04:04:00 - [57] Originally by: Ishtar1 Personaly i saw this in another topic What about a Type of warp scram that can only be fitted on a mother ship or titan I for one would love to see two titans with fleets and caps going at it now thats an idea worth entertaining! only ship that can effectively lock down a titan or mothership is another titan or mothership? want the kill? put it on the line. good good GOOD idea. props to whomever thought this one up first. simple and effective
babylonstew Caldari Caldari Scouting and Intel Group	Posted - 2007.02.16 04:05:00 - [58] Originally by: Layla Ashley just jump 200 dreads near the titan, switch them into siege and blow the damn thing up before it's cryno alt is even able to leave the station and activate the jump cryno. and if that does not work, try 500 dreads the next time... except anyone with any sense has the cyno alt sat in a hualer full of LO and the cyno on auto repeat next suggestion? Originally by: Devilish Ledoux Don't think of it as being kicked out of the Federation; think of it as beating the rush
Mr Peanut STK Scientific INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.16 04:49:00 - [59] Before these actually existed on Tranquility, everyone thought that they would be useless. Now that we actually have them, it's funny/ironic that people whine about them.
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.16 05:47:00 - [60] Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Stop blobbing? so you deploy 10 dreads to bust some poses, you expect the agressor not to bring a fleet to defend them, and the aggressor ot to bring a fleet big enough to destroy them?

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