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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Aaeolian	Posted - 2007.02.19 02:51:00 - [31] Signed. even though this this thread is in the wrong place.
Phrixus Zephyr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.02.19 02:55:00 - [32] Good job guys, way to get a thread locked. Smack each other on the first page. Originally by: Ice Conch In soviet russia, soap drops you!
Gaunty Macabre Votum Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2007.02.19 03:43:00 - [33] Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Good job guys, way to get a thread locked. Smack each other on the first page. Well its CAOD what did you expect?
Rumbaar Solitary Forsaken	Posted - 2007.02.19 04:45:00 - [34] You just have to look at the outdated information on the main site, like the Item Database, Player Guide, etc, to see how correct the op is. ___________________ Custom banner? Click above or EVEmail
Daald Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:00:00 - [35] This game was not created with a magic wand. Programmers worked on every aspect of it. They had intent behind what they wanted to accomplish. A design was presented to them for implementation. They were challenged along the way. They had to redo things or redesign. They had to go back and refactor their code etc etc etc. As you can see the knowledge is there. Can that knowledge be put on paper for our good and your good? A great way to reduce support calls is to educate your consumer. -----------------------------
Sentinel Eeex Caldari Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:03:00 - [36] Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch How do you document something as complex as EvE? How does "vendor X" document a "product Y"? You think EVE is "complex"? You really made me laugh.
Mr Pacman Asha' Man	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:06:00 - [37] Edited by: Mr Pacman on 19/02/2007 05:03:29 Originally by: Daald This game was not created with a magic wand. Programmers worked on every aspect of it. They had intent behind what they wanted to accomplish. A design was presented to them for implementation. They were challenged along the way. They had to redo things or redesign. They had to go back and refactor their code etc etc etc. As you can see the knowledge is there. Can that knowledge be put on paper for our good and your good? A great way to reduce support calls is to educate your consumer. This is true for well documented systems. However, Eve is hardly a well documented program. After all, CCP has admitted they don't fully understand why billboards work the way they do simply because the person that programmed them left. I'd imagine POSs are a similar mass of undocumented code as well, explaining the weird "feature" of being able to passively target people inside a POS unless you have a password set up (which makes no sense whatsoever). However, I agree that it is very irritating that many of the game mechanics are not explained fully or, in some cases, at all. Esoteric game mechanics shouldn't be something a player has to "discover" on their own.
Daald Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:10:00 - [38] Then they should get their code reviewed. It's a great job for a novice programmer. They usually spot things that the veterans overlook. -----------------------------
Doctor Zemmen Aliastra	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:46:00 - [39] Edited by: Doctor Zemmen on 19/02/2007 05:42:43 Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Originally by: Drakma Which has nothing to do with the op... How do you document something as complex as EvE? Theres a wiki project at some stage of development but face it, eve evolves faster than traditional manuals can keep up with. Also, part of the joy of the game is the learning. The same way you document anything else, by sitting down and doing the work. Its really not too much to ask for something up to date. The old player guides on the website used to be quite helpful, but now they lack much information. Asking for a legitimate guide to be produced is not too much for the player base to ask.
Vox Vitio	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:08:00 - [40] Part of the fun, for me anyway, is figuring out how all this stuff works. Being a relatively young player, it's surprising to me how much of the "common knowledge" and "unwritten rules" of the game exist only in people's heads. A prime example is warp alignment. What's requirement(s) must be met in order to enter warp? Anyone? 3/4 of max speed. That's it. A lot of people go on about being oriented in the proper direction, but those people have usually not flown freighters. And hell, I've had interceptors that entered warp backwards, due to high acceleration and low max speed. Point is, it's something that you should have to learn from other people. You should have to use trial and error to figure it out. If you could get a manual and find out the perfect way to solve every issue, then go run level 4 missions every day, and mine during your off hours.... well, you'd have the perfect multiplayer game, marred only by the presence of all these other people. hate them so much
Hermes Massai Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:11:00 - [41] EVE for Dummies? I find the lack of "documentation" to be a good thing. It makes information immesurably more valuable, giving an edge to those who are clever and well-informed. I think it also keeps most ADD afflicted 12-year old CounterStrikers out of EVE. And that is even better.
Noshi Amarr Formula-X	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:16:00 - [42] I have to agree with drakma on this, every mmorpg has an online guide to detailed walkthroughs, CCPs is too outdated and its barely relevant. CCP relies on its playerbase to detail the game mechanics and present the finds on this forums. For example, the mining guide from that guy in STK Scientfic. The most comprehensive explanation of mining in game. There are countless others. At least compile them into one main resource area instead of trying to scour the forums for answers. Sheesh all you get around here is BOD empire alt smack lol. /Noshi
Allen Deckard Gallente Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:17:00 - [43] Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Originally by: Drakma Which has nothing to do with the op... How do you document something as complex as EvE? Theres a wiki project at some stage of development but face it, eve evolves faster than traditional manuals can keep up with. Also, part of the joy of the game is the learning. Well what ur saying is it's faster to make changes than to document the changes you've made? Yah that makes alot of sence. Any why would it be a non ccp anything that documents rules and how things work? Seems that should be the job of CCP. It is their game after all they set the rules. Ever played a card game where someone sets the rules after they know what they have in their hand? You set the rules then play the hand. Kentucky where the goats roam and the rednecks run free
Daald Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:27:00 - [44] So, if I am to figure out how everything works myself can I decompile Eve? I do have the technical know how to do it, and I'm sure I'll figure out a load of things. If I do figure something out that nobody seems to know and it gives me a great advantage, how am I to know that it is not an exploit? How do I differentiate between a bug and a feature? This whole thing reminds me of what a math professor told us in class once after we corrected him in a mathematical mistake. He said, "I only ever make mistakes on the board to see if my students are following. If you believe that then I do have a bridge to sell you." So I do believe that documenation is essential to at least tell us how they envision the system to work so we can stay within bounds. -----------------------------
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:31:00 - [45] Originally by: Hermes Massai EVE for Dummies? I find the lack of "documentation" to be a good thing. It makes information immesurably more valuable, giving an edge to those who are clever and well-informed. I think it also keeps most ADD afflicted 12-year old CounterStrikers out of EVE. And that is even better. I resent all the ADD discriination! ADHD FTW! Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
Drosssk Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.19 07:03:00 - [46] the only thing that needs to be documented is GM/dev conduct. What rules they are suppose to follow. We don't need a game manual, only the repair guide. __________________ Enemies strengthen you. Allies weaken.
mazzilliu Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.19 07:05:00 - [47] Originally by: Drosssk the only thing that needs to be documented is GM/dev conduct. What rules they are suppose to follow. We don't need a game manual, only the repair guide. qft
Qolde Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.02.19 08:10:00 - [48] Go play another MMO like FFXI. Realize that most of the documentation of ANY mechanic comes from the players itself. FFXI has no forum on the Square-Enix website, no item database, no place to chat with devs or GMs. And if you think GM's here are clueless? MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Crellion Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.02.19 10:34:00 - [49] Originally by: Maraleith If the rules are not clear - how can anyone know what is acceptable and what is not? If one GM rules one way - is it not reasonable that another should rule the same way in the same circumstances? It's how the English legal system has worked for several hundred years so I think it would work for Eve. So CCP is as faulty as say... God? Who tossed us in this Universe without explainign fully the laws of physics? Grow up ... Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.19 10:46:00 - [50] What CCP doesnt need specifically is documentation about all the bugs and errors in the game. What they need is documentation about the intended purposes and qualities of features. This can be used to verify whether or not something is a bug or a feature. We should not be told "You cant not shoot through POS shields" and then later be told "Actualy you can if there is no password set and the target is a structure or not boarded, you cant shoot at boarded ships" and then not even two days later be told: "Oh and its also ok if the target isnt a member of the owner corp if there is no password set" Which is a condition that has been called a "bug" multipule times before with people having their ships reimbursed for ** Which is a condition has has been called a "bug" multipule times before with people having their ships reimbursed for With a simple feature list of what you can and cant do as intended this would be very freaking easy to verify and we wouldnt have to deal with crap due to changing game features. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Sinister Death Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.02.19 11:03:00 - [51] Originally by: Drakma You may find it fun paying CCP to beta test their software, but others don't. Isn't this response soooo 2003? lol... Welcome to 2007, the docuementation is done through discovery. The day the game came out at release, the printed manual was pointless... the game was totally different, even char creation was different. How do you learn the game? Experience it. How do you get a leg up? RTFM that people post around here. How do you get ahead of your peers? Figure out something they haven't. Documentation from the Developers would be fine, but then they would have to pay someone to not every aspect that comes out of coding. They try that already with patch notes but some stuff just slips through. Somethings have unintended consequences and can only be found by some idiot trying to shoot a torpedo, warp, drink coffee, hit Ctl+q, and talk on his cell phone.... just to learn that he can dock without a pod? If that user doesn't bug report it, or document it... he's got an advantage to podless docking. Sometimes when that podless docking is observed... someone says 'hey how did you do that?' or "hey that's not fair... I don't want a pod either!, petition" Then the DEVS and GMs can find this nifty new flaw that player found out. And either fix it... or accept that it's a game mechanic and "maybe" fix it soonÖ or "maybe" fix it in a quick patch because if more people shot a torpeod, warped, drank coffee, hit Ctl+q and talked on cell phones... that everyone would have a podless adventure... which might not be something they want... or if they do they will leave it. Either way... experience / testing it yourself is the ONLY documentation you need in this world. This game is supposed to be player driven. Documentation included there. Sin . . The opinions expressed above are mine, and mine alone. They don't represent my corp, alliance or family.
Kam SingDu'k Singularity.	Posted - 2007.02.19 11:36:00 - [52] Lol, I can't believe people are flaming Drakma for this suggestion. You guys need to understand that what drives eve is knowledge, without it, you would be that noob in empire constantly getting ganked and his mining containers stolen. Sure there are lots of guides on the forums, with regards to mining, scanning, turret and missile tracing etc. However, not all eve players read the forums. An out of game 'guide' would benefit eve players because it would finally establish some certainty in the game. I understand that the eve universe is constantly developing and changing, but a guide which covers the basics on each profession in the game would never change. For example, having a simple guide on trading, and how the market works in terms of selling and buying order, which skills correlate with marketing, how to spot scams etc. This 'infrastructure' has rarely changed in eve, bar the new contract system, so people new to the game should at least be able to understand how it works, thus helping them expereience the game to the full potential. There is much that could be successfully documented, including the system in which petitions work. As the op suggests, if players knew what could and couldnt be petitioned, I'm sure it would reduce the load on ccp with regards to bogus claims, as well as the accusations of CCP being biased towards a particular group of players. So yeah I agree that there should be such guide to finally establish a degree of certainty within the game, thats official and true. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Taiatia (mods@ccpgames)
Ithoriel	Posted - 2007.02.19 13:22:00 - [53] Originally by: Allen Deckard Ever played a card game where someone sets the rules after they know what they have in their hand? You set the rules then play the hand.[/quote Yeah - Fluxx Excellent card game.
Anon I'muss	Posted - 2007.02.19 13:31:00 - [54] Originally by: Drakma Originally by: Herculite There is VERY little skill in EvE beyond game knowledge. If someone put a gigantic book of how it all works together most of the fun would have been ruined for me. God point, but I'm not asking for an "I win" book. Merely something that outlines how aspects of the game work... 1) How corporations work.... 2) How alliances work... . . . 20) How POS work... Its actually needed IMO particularly as so many skills and modules have such brief descritions. Take this for instance: Skill at creating effective cynosural fields. 50-unit reduction in liquid ozone consumption for module activation per skill level. Thats not enough to tell me what the hell cynosural fields do, or where I can use them or anything like that. And the amount of times I've found modules that just say what they are in the description rather than what they do... So yeah a good textual description of skills and most types of modules either in game or in a wiki or manual somewhere would definitly get my vote. _________________________________________________________ My main forum alt...
Anon I'muss	Posted - 2007.02.19 13:35:00 - [55] Originally by: Qolde Go play another MMO like FFXI. Realize that most of the documentation of ANY mechanic comes from the players itself. FFXI has no forum on the Square-Enix website, no item database, no place to chat with devs or GMs. And if you think GM's here are clueless? MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. So because another game is crap I should be happy with poor quality in this game? Doesn't work like that. _________________________________________________________ My main forum alt...
Ladyah Liandri Take By Surprise Ltd.	Posted - 2007.02.19 14:29:00 - [56] Originally by: hybridundertaker If u know a perfect game pls link me the download link. Is it a book of ''known bugs cheat exploits and walkthroughts'' u ask for from CCP or u just need some fitting advice? Come on - the OP has a valid point here. EVE lacks of documentation. Just look at the various tutorials - most of the real good ones have been elaborated by the community. I mean look at the forums - look at the answers you'll get asking how certain things work. It's a "I guess", "it should", "I believe" feast.
Allantia FW Inc Kith of Venal	Posted - 2007.02.19 16:10:00 - [57] Originally by: Drakma Edited by: Drakma on 18/02/2007 08:41:36 And please educate your GM's. I realize you're going through internal issues/restructuring but when there is no definitive guide on how something is supposed to work, you show your lack of respect towards the playerbase. /signed As great as EVE is, it has to be one of the most poorly documented pieces of software in the history of programming. I kinda doubt CCP will suddenly reform though, since they've been this way all along and by now know that they can let the more dedicated parts of the playerbase do their work for them. As for the GMs... well, when you can spend a week arguing with a GM who's insisting that it's impossible to reimburse you because the logs simply don't show the info to verify your claim, then escalate to a senior GM and be reimbursed within 12 hrs, it speaks volumes.
Manczech	Posted - 2007.02.19 16:26:00 - [58] Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch [How do you document something as complex as EvE? In order to develop something as complex as EvE, I'm pretty sure CCPs change control is something a little more advanced than folklore. That'd be a place to start.
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.02.19 16:33:00 - [59] Originally by: Sentinel Eeex You think EVE is "complex"? As far as games go you'd be hard pressed to come up with others as "complex". Compared to brain surgery I'd say it's not complex. It's all relative. EvE isnt the type of environment that needs detailed technical documentation. It's a game. Part of it's charm for me is the learning through experience. Would a detailed manual be nice? Shrug yes, I'm sure it would in an ideal world. But when CCP has a personnel budget of "x" and a lot of jobs that need to be done I have no qualms with "the player manual" being shoved down the priority list. This is a game where the players demand new content regularly. Changes happen so quickly a traditional manual would never be up to date.
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.02.19 16:53:00 - [60] Edited by: ScreamingLord Sutch on 19/02/2007 16:50:45 Originally by: Sentinel Eeex Spare me the rethoric. I gave you my POV, you dont have to agree. If you are going to do witty retorts then at least have the decency to spell them correctly so you don't look like a complete and utter mullet. Edit - and to your second question, I thought the answer was abundantly clear. I'll try again but with smaller words this time. No I dont think EVE is too complex to document. I can understand why it's not CCP's priority*

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