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Drakma Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.18 08:45:00 - [1] Edited by: Drakma on 18/02/2007 08:41:36 And please educate your GM's. I realize you're going through internal issues/restructuring but when there is no definitive guide on how something is supposed to work, you show your lack of respect towards the playerbase. ----------------- Gekidoku is recruiting - Ingame channel Gekidoku
Drakma Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.18 08:46:00 - [2] Edited by: Drakma on 18/02/2007 08:42:27 Posted in wrong area, please move the Eve General as was intended... thank you. ----------------- Gekidoku is recruiting - Ingame channel Gekidoku
Tarkan Kador Amarr PanTarkan Kador Holdings	Posted - 2007.02.18 08:48:00 - [3] I agree. It could actually be a good money making opportunity for you CCP, by selling big, glossy, hardcover rulebooks in your store.
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.18 09:03:00 - [4] The inconsistency in GM reimbursements has always been astounding. It really seems to all depend on how much you can sweet talk them... Signature quote removed - It was too much for my little virgin eyes. Jacques([email protected])
Redbad Minmatar Be Inspired Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.18 10:19:00 - [5] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz The inconsistency in GM reimbursements has always been astounding. It really seems to all depend on how much you can sweet talk them... I find that quite disturbing.
Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.02.18 10:50:00 - [6] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz The inconsistency in GM reimbursements has always been astounding. It really seems to all depend on how much you can sweet talk them... Seriously, why do you think we're not allowed to discuss GM actions? It makes it so CCP doesn't have to be hardliners on consistency. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.02.18 11:07:00 - [7] Originally by: Verite Rendition Originally by: Shamis Orzoz The inconsistency in GM reimbursements has always been astounding. It really seems to all depend on how much you can sweet talk them... Seriously, why do you think we're not allowed to discuss GM actions? It makes it so CCP doesn't have to be hardliners on consistency. You cant discuss it because people are bull****ters. They would come on here and lie through their dirty little teeth in order to get public opinion on their side, truth or not. Just take a look at the D2 titan threads, 60 pages and loads of them screaming "omfg passive targeter hax!" and "shooting in the bubble11!", "the titan was aggroed by shooting npc wrecks!11eleven1" Absolute rubbish like this would be all over the forums and CCP would be second guessed and have to explain itself needlessly.
Drakma Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.18 11:39:00 - [8] One would think that CCP would want to reduce the amount of petitions they have to deal with. IF you have a definitive document that states exactly how things work, how much more black and white can you get? ----------------- Gekidoku is recruiting - Ingame channel Gekidoku
War Machine Murini Ice Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.18 11:48:00 - [9] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz The inconsistency in GM reimbursements has always been astounding. It really seems to all depend on how much you can sweet talk them... It could be because some people communicate their grievances better than others.
Pepperami Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.02.18 12:08:00 - [10] Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Originally by: Verite Rendition Seriously, why do you think we're not allowed to discuss GM actions? It makes it so CCP doesn't have to be hardliners on consistency. You cant discuss it because people are bull**ters. They would come on here and lie through their dirty little teeth in order to get public opinion on their side, truth or not. Just take a look at the D2 titan threads, 60 pages and loads of them screaming "omfg passive targeter hax!" and "shooting in the bubble11!", "the titan was aggroed by shooting npc wrecks!11eleven1" Absolute rubbish like this would be all over the forums and CCP would be second guessed and have to explain itself needlessly. Quoting a pretty much perfect reply. [EVE TASK BAR?**]
Drakma Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.18 12:19:00 - [11] Originally by: Pepperami Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Originally by: Verite Rendition Seriously, why do you think we're not allowed to discuss GM actions? It makes it so CCP doesn't have to be hardliners on consistency. You cant discuss it because people are bull****ters. They would come on here and lie through their dirty little teeth in order to get public opinion on their side, truth or not. Just take a look at the D2 titan threads, 60 pages and loads of them screaming "omfg passive targeter hax!" and "shooting in the bubble11!", "the titan was aggroed by shooting npc wrecks!11eleven1" Absolute rubbish like this would be all over the forums and CCP would be second guessed and have to explain itself needlessly. Quoting a pretty much perfect reply. Which has nothing to do with the op... ----------------- Gekidoku is recruiting - Ingame channel Gekidoku
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.02.18 12:35:00 - [12] Originally by: Drakma Which has nothing to do with the op... How do you document something as complex as EvE? Theres a wiki project at some stage of development but face it, eve evolves faster than traditional manuals can keep up with. Also, part of the joy of the game is the learning.
hybridundertaker Amarr Beagle Corp	Posted - 2007.02.18 12:49:00 - [13] Originally by: Drakma Edited by: Drakma on 18/02/2007 08:41:36 And please educate your GM's. I realize you're going through internal issues/restructuring but when there is no definitive guide on how something is supposed to work, you show your lack of respect towards the playerbase. If anybody thinks all the combinations occuring in an rather open game as eve can be predicted and evaluated he obviously bases assumptions on void. I wonder if the GM's would still need education if ascn wouldnt loose? p.s. xxx-oku, it sounds so familiar...
Drakma Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.18 12:53:00 - [14] Originally by: hybridundertaker Originally by: Drakma Edited by: Drakma on 18/02/2007 08:41:36 And please educate your GM's. I realize you're going through internal issues/restructuring but when there is no definitive guide on how something is supposed to work, you show your lack of respect towards the playerbase. If anybody thinks all the combinations occuring in an rather open game as eve can be predicted and evaluated he obviously bases assumptions on void. I wonder if the GM's would still need education if ascn wouldnt loose? p.s. xxx-oku, it sounds so familiar... wow, you sure is a smart one. ----------------- Gekidoku is recruiting - Ingame channel Gekidoku
Drakma Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.18 12:55:00 - [15] Edited by: Drakma on 18/02/2007 12:52:25 Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Originally by: Drakma Which has nothing to do with the op... How do you document something as complex as EvE? Theres a wiki project at some stage of development but face it, eve evolves faster than traditional manuals can keep up with. Also, part of the joy of the game is the learning. The wiki project is not a guide produced by CCP. It is a computer game, and as such has inherent rules in which it runs. If you can't document those rules, then you shouldn't be programming... You may find it fun paying CCP to beta test their software, but others don't. ----------------- Gekidoku is recruiting - Ingame channel Gekidoku
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.02.18 12:58:00 - [16] Originally by: Drakma You may find it fun paying CCP to beta test their software, but others don't. Quit then and stop whining if its not fun for you.
Drakma Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.18 12:59:00 - [17] Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Originally by: Drakma You may find it fun paying CCP to beta test their software, but others don't. Quit then and stop whining if its not fun for you. Go back in your troll hole. ----------------- Gekidoku is recruiting - Ingame channel Gekidoku
Sergio Ling Standard Operations Building Services	Posted - 2007.02.18 13:03:00 - [18] Originally by: Drakma Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Originally by: Drakma You may find it fun paying CCP to beta test their software, but others don't. Quit then and stop whining if its not fun for you. Go back in your troll hole. why must everyone who disagrees with you be a troll? The 'i dont wanna beta test software here' line is overused, and wrong. but yes, in truth, stop screaming for what you want. this is what EVE is. if you don't like it, CIHYS _ Your sig is pwn - Eris snip This is a english speeking forum, for moderation perposes - hutch
Drakma Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.18 13:06:00 - [19] Originally by: Sergio Ling Originally by: Drakma Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Originally by: Drakma You may find it fun paying CCP to beta test their software, but others don't. Quit then and stop whining if its not fun for you. Go back in your troll hole. why must everyone who disagrees with you be a troll? The 'i dont wanna beta test software here' line is overused, and wrong. but yes, in truth, stop screaming for what you want. this is what EVE is. if you don't like it, CIHYS He wasn't even arguing a point, merely telling me to quit whining and leave, sorry that's a troll. Personally, I think documentation of this game would help clear up a lot of the crap that has been happening lately. Now, if you want to be constructive and discuss that topic, I have no problem, but if you come in here screaming, "whiner, then quit!" then you've done nothing constructive. ----------------- Gekidoku is recruiting - Ingame channel Gekidoku
hybridundertaker Amarr Beagle Corp	Posted - 2007.02.18 13:10:00 - [20] Originally by: Drakma Originally by: hybridundertaker Originally by: Drakma Edited by: Drakma on 18/02/2007 08:41:36 And please educate your GM's. I realize you're going through internal issues/restructuring but when there is no definitive guide on how something is supposed to work, you show your lack of respect towards the playerbase. If anybody thinks all the combinations occuring in an rather open game as eve can be predicted and evaluated he obviously bases assumptions on void. I wonder if the GM's would still need education if ascn wouldnt loose? p.s. xxx-oku, it sounds so familiar... wow, you sure is a smart one. if i were smart i wouldnt waste my time reading all this crap dude. Im just sick of seeing ppl taking out on CCP, they made a game many like and trolling about uneducated GMs wont help it get any better. If u know a perfect game pls link me the download link. Is it a book of ''known bugs cheat exploits and walkthroughts'' u ask for from CCP or u just need some fitting advice?
Maraleith	Posted - 2007.02.18 13:12:00 - [21] If the rules are not clear - how can anyone know what is acceptable and what is not? If one GM rules one way - is it not reasonable that another should rule the same way in the same circumstances? It's how the English legal system has worked for several hundred years so I think it would work for Eve.
Drakma Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.18 13:14:00 - [22] Originally by: hybridundertaker Originally by: Drakma Originally by: hybridundertaker Originally by: Drakma Edited by: Drakma on 18/02/2007 08:41:36 And please educate your GM's. I realize you're going through internal issues/restructuring but when there is no definitive guide on how something is supposed to work, you show your lack of respect towards the playerbase. If anybody thinks all the combinations occuring in an rather open game as eve can be predicted and evaluated he obviously bases assumptions on void. I wonder if the GM's would still need education if ascn wouldnt loose? p.s. xxx-oku, it sounds so familiar... wow, you sure is a smart one. if i were smart i wouldnt waste my time reading all this crap dude. Im just sick of seeing ppl taking out on CCP, they made a game many like and trolling about uneducated GMs wont help it get any better. If u know a perfect game pls link me the download link. Is it a book of ''known bugs cheat exploits and walkthroughts'' u ask for from CCP or u just need some fitting advice? Uh, I'm not "taking out" on CCP or trolling about GM's. I'm asking for their game to be document so that everybody knows how it's supposed to work. If you can't see that as a positive way to help the game, then you should stop reading this thread now. ----------------- Gekidoku is recruiting - Ingame channel Gekidoku
Valekrin Ziemisra 12-Gauge	Posted - 2007.02.18 13:15:00 - [23] Quote: Just take a look at the D2 titan threads, 60 pages and loads of them screaming "omfg passive targeter hax!" and "shooting in the bubble11!", "the titan was aggroed by shooting npc wrecks!11eleven1" The reason people are yelling that is because its a possibility, and has been done in the past, and im guessing still isnt fixed.
Herculite Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.18 13:16:00 - [24] There is VERY little skill in EvE beyond game knowledge. If someone put a gigantic book of how it all works together most of the fun would have been ruined for me.
hybridundertaker Amarr Beagle Corp	Posted - 2007.02.18 13:19:00 - [25] Originally by: Maraleith If the rules are not clear - how can anyone know what is acceptable and what is not? If one GM rules one way - is it not reasonable that another should rule the same way in the same circumstances? It's how the English legal system has worked for several hundred years so I think it would work for Eve. i wont my seat in the lords chamber and a subcontinent to enslave also!! now take ure rl comparaisons out pls as i dont want to mine for months and months to hire a lawyer who will tell me who can i gank and who i cant without having problems with the ''law''. Neither i want to pay timecodes more bcs ccp need a serier of legal institutions and law making experts.
Drakma Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.18 13:19:00 - [26] Originally by: Herculite There is VERY little skill in EvE beyond game knowledge. If someone put a gigantic book of how it all works together most of the fun would have been ruined for me. God point, but I'm not asking for an "I win" book. Merely something that outlines how aspects of the game work... 1) How corporations work.... 2) How alliances work... . . . 20) How POS work... ----------------- Gekidoku is recruiting - Ingame channel Gekidoku
hybridundertaker Amarr Beagle Corp	Posted - 2007.02.18 13:23:00 - [27] Originally by: Drakma Originally by: hybridundertaker Originally by: Drakma Originally by: hybridundertaker Originally by: Drakma Edited by: Drakma on 18/02/2007 08:41:36 And please educate your GM's. I realize you're going through internal issues/restructuring but when there is no definitive guide on how something is supposed to work, you show your lack of respect towards the playerbase. If anybody thinks all the combinations occuring in an rather open game as eve can be predicted and evaluated he obviously bases assumptions on void. I wonder if the GM's would still need education if ascn wouldnt loose? p.s. xxx-oku, it sounds so familiar... wow, you sure is a smart one. if i were smart i wouldnt waste my time reading all this crap dude. Im just sick of seeing ppl taking out on CCP, they made a game many like and trolling about uneducated GMs wont help it get any better. If u know a perfect game pls link me the download link. Is it a book of ''known bugs cheat exploits and walkthroughts'' u ask for from CCP or u just need some fitting advice? Uh, I'm not "taking out" on CCP or trolling about GM's. I'm asking for their game to be document so that everybody knows how it's supposed to work. If you can't see that as a positive way to help the game, then you should stop reading this thread now. well sry if i was being offensive in my words but ive been reading forums all morning and the spirit got to me... I dont think a book like that can be done tbh and there is a lot of usefull info in blogs and threads (but it is hard to find due to all the troling around).
Sidrat Flush Caldari Galaxy Punks Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.18 13:23:00 - [28] Yeah a manual covering the basic game mechanics that rarely if ever change would be a good thing. OR adding a small paragraph to the modules that will start or restart an agro timer and (for people who don't know) exactly what an agro timer is and what it doesn't let you do or the places where you can't go. There's more of course. Like what exactly is the refining rate in a 50% station with speciality skills maxed and 0% standings when the base is already 97% without those bonuses? Can it really be over 100%? Anyway, there are guides around, and if you have a specific query and no one in your corp or alliance can help, you could ask in local or if you're really desperate the Help channel. Otherwise specifics can be asked on the forum. It's not that difficult really. On the other hand a hardback Eve collection of artwork, stories and game mechanics, as well as Alliance history would be a great purchase don't you think? Life is about memories the more the better. Looking for CCP to improve availability of their GTC's, for non card carriers!
Nahual Gallente 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.02.18 13:25:00 - [29] Do you seriously have nothing better to do? -----------------------------------------------
Drakma Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.18 13:29:00 - [30] Originally by: Sidrat Flush Yeah a manual covering the basic game mechanics that rarely if ever change would be a good thing. OR adding a small paragraph to the modules that will start or restart an agro timer and (for people who don't know) exactly what an agro timer is and what it doesn't let you do or the places where you can't go. There's more of course. Like what exactly is the refining rate in a 50% station with speciality skills maxed and 0% standings when the base is already 97% without those bonuses? Can it really be over 100%? Anyway, there are guides around, and if you have a specific query and no one in your corp or alliance can help, you could ask in local or if you're really desperate the Help channel. Otherwise specifics can be asked on the forum. It's not that difficult really. On the other hand a hardback Eve collection of artwork, stories and game mechanics, as well as Alliance history would be a great purchase don't you think? That's all well and good that there are resources out there, but they are not by CCP and as such are not "official." With an official guide, a lot of guesswork gets removed from the game for many players and GM's ----------------- Gekidoku is recruiting - Ingame channel Gekidoku
Aaeolian	Posted - 2007.02.19 02:51:00 - [31] Signed. even though this this thread is in the wrong place.
Phrixus Zephyr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.02.19 02:55:00 - [32] Good job guys, way to get a thread locked. Smack each other on the first page. Originally by: Ice Conch In soviet russia, soap drops you!
Gaunty Macabre Votum Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2007.02.19 03:43:00 - [33] Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Good job guys, way to get a thread locked. Smack each other on the first page. Well its CAOD what did you expect?
Rumbaar Solitary Forsaken	Posted - 2007.02.19 04:45:00 - [34] You just have to look at the outdated information on the main site, like the Item Database, Player Guide, etc, to see how correct the op is. ___________________ Custom banner? Click above or EVEmail
Daald Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:00:00 - [35] This game was not created with a magic wand. Programmers worked on every aspect of it. They had intent behind what they wanted to accomplish. A design was presented to them for implementation. They were challenged along the way. They had to redo things or redesign. They had to go back and refactor their code etc etc etc. As you can see the knowledge is there. Can that knowledge be put on paper for our good and your good? A great way to reduce support calls is to educate your consumer. -----------------------------
Sentinel Eeex Caldari Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:03:00 - [36] Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch How do you document something as complex as EvE? How does "vendor X" document a "product Y"? You think EVE is "complex"? You really made me laugh.
Mr Pacman Asha' Man	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:06:00 - [37] Edited by: Mr Pacman on 19/02/2007 05:03:29 Originally by: Daald This game was not created with a magic wand. Programmers worked on every aspect of it. They had intent behind what they wanted to accomplish. A design was presented to them for implementation. They were challenged along the way. They had to redo things or redesign. They had to go back and refactor their code etc etc etc. As you can see the knowledge is there. Can that knowledge be put on paper for our good and your good? A great way to reduce support calls is to educate your consumer. This is true for well documented systems. However, Eve is hardly a well documented program. After all, CCP has admitted they don't fully understand why billboards work the way they do simply because the person that programmed them left. I'd imagine POSs are a similar mass of undocumented code as well, explaining the weird "feature" of being able to passively target people inside a POS unless you have a password set up (which makes no sense whatsoever). However, I agree that it is very irritating that many of the game mechanics are not explained fully or, in some cases, at all. Esoteric game mechanics shouldn't be something a player has to "discover" on their own.
Daald Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:10:00 - [38] Then they should get their code reviewed. It's a great job for a novice programmer. They usually spot things that the veterans overlook. -----------------------------
Doctor Zemmen Aliastra	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:46:00 - [39] Edited by: Doctor Zemmen on 19/02/2007 05:42:43 Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Originally by: Drakma Which has nothing to do with the op... How do you document something as complex as EvE? Theres a wiki project at some stage of development but face it, eve evolves faster than traditional manuals can keep up with. Also, part of the joy of the game is the learning. The same way you document anything else, by sitting down and doing the work. Its really not too much to ask for something up to date. The old player guides on the website used to be quite helpful, but now they lack much information. Asking for a legitimate guide to be produced is not too much for the player base to ask.
Vox Vitio	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:08:00 - [40] Part of the fun, for me anyway, is figuring out how all this stuff works. Being a relatively young player, it's surprising to me how much of the "common knowledge" and "unwritten rules" of the game exist only in people's heads. A prime example is warp alignment. What's requirement(s) must be met in order to enter warp? Anyone? 3/4 of max speed. That's it. A lot of people go on about being oriented in the proper direction, but those people have usually not flown freighters. And hell, I've had interceptors that entered warp backwards, due to high acceleration and low max speed. Point is, it's something that you should have to learn from other people. You should have to use trial and error to figure it out. If you could get a manual and find out the perfect way to solve every issue, then go run level 4 missions every day, and mine during your off hours.... well, you'd have the perfect multiplayer game, marred only by the presence of all these other people. hate them so much
Hermes Massai Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:11:00 - [41] EVE for Dummies? I find the lack of "documentation" to be a good thing. It makes information immesurably more valuable, giving an edge to those who are clever and well-informed. I think it also keeps most ADD afflicted 12-year old CounterStrikers out of EVE. And that is even better.
Noshi Amarr Formula-X	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:16:00 - [42] I have to agree with drakma on this, every mmorpg has an online guide to detailed walkthroughs, CCPs is too outdated and its barely relevant. CCP relies on its playerbase to detail the game mechanics and present the finds on this forums. For example, the mining guide from that guy in STK Scientfic. The most comprehensive explanation of mining in game. There are countless others. At least compile them into one main resource area instead of trying to scour the forums for answers. Sheesh all you get around here is BOD empire alt smack lol. /Noshi
Allen Deckard Gallente Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:17:00 - [43] Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Originally by: Drakma Which has nothing to do with the op... How do you document something as complex as EvE? Theres a wiki project at some stage of development but face it, eve evolves faster than traditional manuals can keep up with. Also, part of the joy of the game is the learning. Well what ur saying is it's faster to make changes than to document the changes you've made? Yah that makes alot of sence. Any why would it be a non ccp anything that documents rules and how things work? Seems that should be the job of CCP. It is their game after all they set the rules. Ever played a card game where someone sets the rules after they know what they have in their hand? You set the rules then play the hand. Kentucky where the goats roam and the rednecks run free
Daald Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:27:00 - [44] So, if I am to figure out how everything works myself can I decompile Eve? I do have the technical know how to do it, and I'm sure I'll figure out a load of things. If I do figure something out that nobody seems to know and it gives me a great advantage, how am I to know that it is not an exploit? How do I differentiate between a bug and a feature? This whole thing reminds me of what a math professor told us in class once after we corrected him in a mathematical mistake. He said, "I only ever make mistakes on the board to see if my students are following. If you believe that then I do have a bridge to sell you." So I do believe that documenation is essential to at least tell us how they envision the system to work so we can stay within bounds. -----------------------------
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:31:00 - [45] Originally by: Hermes Massai EVE for Dummies? I find the lack of "documentation" to be a good thing. It makes information immesurably more valuable, giving an edge to those who are clever and well-informed. I think it also keeps most ADD afflicted 12-year old CounterStrikers out of EVE. And that is even better. I resent all the ADD discriination! ADHD FTW! Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
Drosssk Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.19 07:03:00 - [46] the only thing that needs to be documented is GM/dev conduct. What rules they are suppose to follow. We don't need a game manual, only the repair guide. __________________ Enemies strengthen you. Allies weaken.
mazzilliu Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.19 07:05:00 - [47] Originally by: Drosssk the only thing that needs to be documented is GM/dev conduct. What rules they are suppose to follow. We don't need a game manual, only the repair guide. qft
Qolde Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.02.19 08:10:00 - [48] Go play another MMO like FFXI. Realize that most of the documentation of ANY mechanic comes from the players itself. FFXI has no forum on the Square-Enix website, no item database, no place to chat with devs or GMs. And if you think GM's here are clueless? MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Crellion Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.02.19 10:34:00 - [49] Originally by: Maraleith If the rules are not clear - how can anyone know what is acceptable and what is not? If one GM rules one way - is it not reasonable that another should rule the same way in the same circumstances? It's how the English legal system has worked for several hundred years so I think it would work for Eve. So CCP is as faulty as say... God? Who tossed us in this Universe without explainign fully the laws of physics? Grow up ... Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.19 10:46:00 - [50] What CCP doesnt need specifically is documentation about all the bugs and errors in the game. What they need is documentation about the intended purposes and qualities of features. This can be used to verify whether or not something is a bug or a feature. We should not be told "You cant not shoot through POS shields" and then later be told "Actualy you can if there is no password set and the target is a structure or not boarded, you cant shoot at boarded ships" and then not even two days later be told: "Oh and its also ok if the target isnt a member of the owner corp if there is no password set" Which is a condition that has been called a "bug" multipule times before with people having their ships reimbursed for ** Which is a condition has has been called a "bug" multipule times before with people having their ships reimbursed for With a simple feature list of what you can and cant do as intended this would be very freaking easy to verify and we wouldnt have to deal with crap due to changing game features. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Sinister Death Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.02.19 11:03:00 - [51] Originally by: Drakma You may find it fun paying CCP to beta test their software, but others don't. Isn't this response soooo 2003? lol... Welcome to 2007, the docuementation is done through discovery. The day the game came out at release, the printed manual was pointless... the game was totally different, even char creation was different. How do you learn the game? Experience it. How do you get a leg up? RTFM that people post around here. How do you get ahead of your peers? Figure out something they haven't. Documentation from the Developers would be fine, but then they would have to pay someone to not every aspect that comes out of coding. They try that already with patch notes but some stuff just slips through. Somethings have unintended consequences and can only be found by some idiot trying to shoot a torpedo, warp, drink coffee, hit Ctl+q, and talk on his cell phone.... just to learn that he can dock without a pod? If that user doesn't bug report it, or document it... he's got an advantage to podless docking. Sometimes when that podless docking is observed... someone says 'hey how did you do that?' or "hey that's not fair... I don't want a pod either!, petition" Then the DEVS and GMs can find this nifty new flaw that player found out. And either fix it... or accept that it's a game mechanic and "maybe" fix it soonÖ or "maybe" fix it in a quick patch because if more people shot a torpeod, warped, drank coffee, hit Ctl+q and talked on cell phones... that everyone would have a podless adventure... which might not be something they want... or if they do they will leave it. Either way... experience / testing it yourself is the ONLY documentation you need in this world. This game is supposed to be player driven. Documentation included there. Sin . . The opinions expressed above are mine, and mine alone. They don't represent my corp, alliance or family.
Kam SingDu'k Singularity.	Posted - 2007.02.19 11:36:00 - [52] Lol, I can't believe people are flaming Drakma for this suggestion. You guys need to understand that what drives eve is knowledge, without it, you would be that noob in empire constantly getting ganked and his mining containers stolen. Sure there are lots of guides on the forums, with regards to mining, scanning, turret and missile tracing etc. However, not all eve players read the forums. An out of game 'guide' would benefit eve players because it would finally establish some certainty in the game. I understand that the eve universe is constantly developing and changing, but a guide which covers the basics on each profession in the game would never change. For example, having a simple guide on trading, and how the market works in terms of selling and buying order, which skills correlate with marketing, how to spot scams etc. This 'infrastructure' has rarely changed in eve, bar the new contract system, so people new to the game should at least be able to understand how it works, thus helping them expereience the game to the full potential. There is much that could be successfully documented, including the system in which petitions work. As the op suggests, if players knew what could and couldnt be petitioned, I'm sure it would reduce the load on ccp with regards to bogus claims, as well as the accusations of CCP being biased towards a particular group of players. So yeah I agree that there should be such guide to finally establish a degree of certainty within the game, thats official and true. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Taiatia (mods@ccpgames)
Ithoriel	Posted - 2007.02.19 13:22:00 - [53] Originally by: Allen Deckard Ever played a card game where someone sets the rules after they know what they have in their hand? You set the rules then play the hand.[/quote Yeah - Fluxx Excellent card game.
Anon I'muss	Posted - 2007.02.19 13:31:00 - [54] Originally by: Drakma Originally by: Herculite There is VERY little skill in EvE beyond game knowledge. If someone put a gigantic book of how it all works together most of the fun would have been ruined for me. God point, but I'm not asking for an "I win" book. Merely something that outlines how aspects of the game work... 1) How corporations work.... 2) How alliances work... . . . 20) How POS work... Its actually needed IMO particularly as so many skills and modules have such brief descritions. Take this for instance: Skill at creating effective cynosural fields. 50-unit reduction in liquid ozone consumption for module activation per skill level. Thats not enough to tell me what the hell cynosural fields do, or where I can use them or anything like that. And the amount of times I've found modules that just say what they are in the description rather than what they do... So yeah a good textual description of skills and most types of modules either in game or in a wiki or manual somewhere would definitly get my vote. _________________________________________________________ My main forum alt...
Anon I'muss	Posted - 2007.02.19 13:35:00 - [55] Originally by: Qolde Go play another MMO like FFXI. Realize that most of the documentation of ANY mechanic comes from the players itself. FFXI has no forum on the Square-Enix website, no item database, no place to chat with devs or GMs. And if you think GM's here are clueless? MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. So because another game is crap I should be happy with poor quality in this game? Doesn't work like that. _________________________________________________________ My main forum alt...
Ladyah Liandri Take By Surprise Ltd.	Posted - 2007.02.19 14:29:00 - [56] Originally by: hybridundertaker If u know a perfect game pls link me the download link. Is it a book of ''known bugs cheat exploits and walkthroughts'' u ask for from CCP or u just need some fitting advice? Come on - the OP has a valid point here. EVE lacks of documentation. Just look at the various tutorials - most of the real good ones have been elaborated by the community. I mean look at the forums - look at the answers you'll get asking how certain things work. It's a "I guess", "it should", "I believe" feast.
Allantia FW Inc Kith of Venal	Posted - 2007.02.19 16:10:00 - [57] Originally by: Drakma Edited by: Drakma on 18/02/2007 08:41:36 And please educate your GM's. I realize you're going through internal issues/restructuring but when there is no definitive guide on how something is supposed to work, you show your lack of respect towards the playerbase. /signed As great as EVE is, it has to be one of the most poorly documented pieces of software in the history of programming. I kinda doubt CCP will suddenly reform though, since they've been this way all along and by now know that they can let the more dedicated parts of the playerbase do their work for them. As for the GMs... well, when you can spend a week arguing with a GM who's insisting that it's impossible to reimburse you because the logs simply don't show the info to verify your claim, then escalate to a senior GM and be reimbursed within 12 hrs, it speaks volumes.
Manczech	Posted - 2007.02.19 16:26:00 - [58] Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch [How do you document something as complex as EvE? In order to develop something as complex as EvE, I'm pretty sure CCPs change control is something a little more advanced than folklore. That'd be a place to start.
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.02.19 16:33:00 - [59] Originally by: Sentinel Eeex You think EVE is "complex"? As far as games go you'd be hard pressed to come up with others as "complex". Compared to brain surgery I'd say it's not complex. It's all relative. EvE isnt the type of environment that needs detailed technical documentation. It's a game. Part of it's charm for me is the learning through experience. Would a detailed manual be nice? Shrug yes, I'm sure it would in an ideal world. But when CCP has a personnel budget of "x" and a lot of jobs that need to be done I have no qualms with "the player manual" being shoved down the priority list. This is a game where the players demand new content regularly. Changes happen so quickly a traditional manual would never be up to date.
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.02.19 16:53:00 - [60] Edited by: ScreamingLord Sutch on 19/02/2007 16:50:45 Originally by: Sentinel Eeex Spare me the rethoric. I gave you my POV, you dont have to agree. If you are going to do witty retorts then at least have the decency to spell them correctly so you don't look like a complete and utter mullet. Edit - and to your second question, I thought the answer was abundantly clear. I'll try again but with smaller words this time. No I dont think EVE is too complex to document. I can understand why it's not CCP's priority*
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.02.19 16:54:00 - [61] Originally by: Drakma Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Originally by: Drakma You may find it fun paying CCP to beta test their software, but others don't. Quit then and stop whining if its not fun for you. Go back in your troll hole. Moles live in holes trolls live under bridges Never again are you allowed to complain about not training for combat
Vansard	Posted - 2007.02.19 16:56:00 - [62] I'm also after a documentation of GM rulings. This can be as simple as a list of precedence & decisions of GMs. This would serve both the community as well as the GM and would be a good step into more precise ruling & decision transparency. I vote for establishing the EVE Precedential Law!
Herculite Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.19 16:59:00 - [63] Originally by: Noshi I have to agree with drakma on this, every mmorpg has an online guide to detailed walkthroughs, CCPs is too outdated and its barely relevant. CCP relies on its playerbase to detail the game mechanics and present the finds on this forums. For example, the mining guide from that guy in STK Scientfic. The most comprehensive explanation of mining in game. There are countless others. At least compile them into one main resource area instead of trying to scour the forums for answers. Sheesh all you get around here is BOD empire alt smack lol. /Noshi There isn't a MMO I've played that had a current and up to date documentation. DAOC? Nope WoW? Nope EQ? Nope Jumpgate? Nope Planetside? Nope A few patches and any offical guides and the like tend to be meaningless or even completely wrong. I still remember my DAOC nightshade being called a 'fearsome caster' or something like that
R'adeh Gallente Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.19 17:10:00 - [64] Originally by: Kam SingDu'k Lol, I can't believe people are flaming Drakma for this suggestion. The thread was in the COAD section of the forums before You know, the section of the forums where EVERY thread starter will get flamed at LEAST once because some idiot feel the need to flame in order to get others to acknowledge their presence I wish people would think before typing. Anyway, I agree some additional documentation would make life a lot more approachable for newer players. How many new players know that if one of their wrecks gets shot, their aggro timers automatically get set back to 15min? Or how they can create an alliance, and why? And, and, and... Sure, there's players guides for some of those subjects...thanks to those who took the time to write those (probing, exploration, etc.). However, it shouldn't take CCP too long to update their original player guide. A lot of things in there are out-dated such as the factory guide. _______________________________________________ My views are my own and I don't represent my corp.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.19 17:39:00 - [65] Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Originally by: Sentinel Eeex You think EVE is "complex"? As far as games go you'd be hard pressed to come up with others as "complex". Compared to brain surgery I'd say it's not complex. It's all relative. EvE isnt the type of environment that needs detailed technical documentation. It's a game. Part of it's charm for me is the learning through experience. Would a detailed manual be nice? Shrug yes, I'm sure it would in an ideal world. But when CCP has a personnel budget of "x" and a lot of jobs that need to be done I have no qualms with "the player manual" being shoved down the priority list. This is a game where the players demand new content regularly. Changes happen so quickly a traditional manual would never be up to date. They do not need to keep and update a complete record of all bugs, errors, exploits, and mistakes. They need to keep a log of intended behaviour. That way, if we think something is wrong, we can check and see if its not. POSs are an intergral part of the game, and we might not need to know all the bugs with them, but we damn well ought to know how they should behave. Just like i know that if i double click in space my ship should not fly the opposite direction. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Dmian Gallente Starline Engineering Corporation	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:42:00 - [66] It's so sad people gets this aggresive at a simple suggestion... Anyways, to the OP. I've thought about EVE documentation a lot, being that I work at the digital dissemination unit of a big institution. Documentation may seem trivial to some players. These are the players that can barely take the game tutorial. They prefer to investigate the game as they play, rather than read a manual. They learn from trial and error. For other players documentation may mean the difference between staying or leaving the game. I, for example, am the kind of people that likes to read and analyse before I say or do something. For developers and GMs a good documentation may mean less time spent replying FAQs. And less complaints from users. Documentation is important, no matter what people say. You surely can learn from trial and error, but there's always information that you won't get that way. I've learned very important information by reading the outdated EVE manual. So far, the sources of information you can get are: The EVE manual (dating from the Exodus release) The Item database Documents in the Backstory section Players guides (tons of them, including maps) The in-game tutorial The problem with EVE in particular is that is has a very short development cycle, that brings problems to the documentation. I believe CCP should seriously think about a documentation cell. There are lots of ways to document EVE and keep it up to date. One solution that I've think of is storing (it may probably be in that way right now) most information in a database. Every time something is updated an XML is generated. By applying a series of style sheets (XSL-FO) several PDFs are generated. For online purposes the data can be retireves dynamically. If the information is properly structured it's just a matter of having someone there to write new changes and link the appropiate media files. Of course, it's not something trivial, but is reachable, specially for a company with such good technical resources as CCP. I hope that someone at CCP reads this, as I feel lots of threads are just ignored.
Opium	Posted - 2007.02.19 20:35:00 - [67] leave it the way it is... this is the one part of the game ccp is doing perfectly as planned . which is to have an open ended space game where ur discoverys by ur character could be groundbreaking for the game.. u are not supposed to know what all the cosmos agents even mean , that way u foind out threu friends or heresay or by urself and are ahead of all others in the game maybe. fleet fights titans pos's soverieghtny u arnt supposed to know exactly how it works u have to figure it out take soverieghnty defend whatever then u or others will know some of what can be done. space the final frontier.... all that crap, seek explore discover ,this is the area they have done perfectly it creates curiousity and interest.there are no documents or guides because it hasnt been discovered yet...i say open jove and put 2 other galaxys on the other side of that. expand were gettin crowded . and dont tell any of the plans or anyhting let us dicover it all
Soporo	Posted - 2007.02.19 21:40:00 - [68] Document, ACCURATELY the numbers and procedures for Invention please CCP, assuming you know the answers...we should NOT have to rely on excellent people like Lady Noir to spend her time and rescources doing what what you should provide us.
hotgirl933	Posted - 2007.02.19 22:23:00 - [69] eve wiki needs to be expanded but its a long term project
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.19 22:29:00 - [70] Originally by: Vansard I'm also after a documentation of GM rulings. This can be as simple as a list of precedence & decisions of GMs. This would serve both the community as well as the GM and would be a good step into more precise ruling & decision transparency. I vote for establishing the EVE Precedential Law! /seconded. So far it hasn't been build for fear of publicizing exploitable bugs, but now sadly it is needed as the playerbase has little faith in the GM decisions, and witout a non anndotical base it is hard to restore that, as most people whould report his case in the best possible light for his position, and the ruling against them in the worst possible one, conveniently forgotting key points.
Tarkan Kador Amarr PanTarkan Kador Holdings	Posted - 2007.02.20 02:07:00 - [71] Edited by: Tarkan Kador on 20/02/2007 02:11:46 This is why we need documentation: New CEO: Member 1, can you take that ore in Division 1 and bring it to the factory at Yarebap? Member 1: I need access to Division 1. [new CEO presses buttons he thinks might work] New CEO: Is it good now? Member 1: No...hey do you even know what you are doing? New CEO: I'm working on it. Member 2: Its real simple, just go to our names, hit "director," and we are good to go :) Member 1: C'mon! I have to log in an hour. [New CEO just clicks the box on "director," not knowing what a director does] New CEO: Okay Member 1, can you access Division 1? Member 1: Yeah...but there are no minerals there. New CEO: Are you sure? Its right next to the crate with all our loots. Member 1: Nothing in Division 1, or Division 2, 3, or any of them. [New CEO panics] New CEO: Um...do you see Division 5? Member 1: Um...yeah...like every other division. New CEO: Do you see our Large Armor Repairer II BPO in Division 5? Member 1: ... New CEO: Member 2...do you see our BPO in Division 5? [New CEO gets a corpmail informing New CEO of Member IIs departure] New CEO: I think we have a problem. The CEO will learn from this experience, just like the person who fills up their 2 stroke snowblower with regular gasolene will learn that you don't fill a 2 stroke with straight gasolene. Lucky for we snowblower owners though, we have manuals to tell us what to do. We don't have that in EVE though, which is like learning how to use a snowblower only though learning not how to use a snowblower. Which of course means that we have to destroy a lot of snowblowers, lose a lot of fingers, get rushed to the hospitals, and generally spend more time fixing our snowblower than using it. I can understand why a lot of you are so against official documentation, but the reason you are against it has nothing to do with good game design. Good games are like good snowblowers, but if you fill even the best snowblower with bad gas, you'll never know how good or bad the snowblower can be. I mean, even a religion as deep and mysterious as Christianity, or Islam has proper documentation. If religions like those see the need for documentation, then EVE certainly does. Those who oppose official documentation are like the doctors who attach severed fingers, the repairmen who make a living by fixing things, and the salesmen who sell new snowblowers. You make a far better living off of ignorance, rather than knowledge. And in a game like EVE, where its much too easy to be swindled, its in your interest to keep as many players as ignorant of the features as possible, so you can swindle them early, often, and extensively. Please resize your signature picture to be no more than 24000 bytes, 400x120 pixels. - Devil ([email protected])
Jerusalem Man Farmers Union	Posted - 2007.02.20 03:20:00 - [72] Originally by: Dmian ... So far, the sources of information you can get are: The EVE manual (dating from the Exodus release) The Item database Documents in the Backstory section Players guides (tons of them, including maps) The in-game tutorial I wonder how many people realise we have an EVE Knowledgebase (under EVE Support on the homepage), I only found it quite recently. Originally by: Soporo Document, ACCURATELY the numbers and procedures for Invention please CCP, assuming you know the answers...we should NOT have to rely on excellent people like Lady Noir to spend her time and rescources doing what what you should provide us. Invention It doesn't have everything but it is a good starting point for looking up specific questions. If CCP could keep this up to date and fill it out with a bit more detail (eg I wanted to know how corp tax works) it would go a long way towards the ops request. Between this and the sticky in the EVE New Citizens Q&A forum which contains the Official Players Guide and links to a lot of the guides I'd say they do a fair job documentation.
Dmian Gallente Starline Engineering Corporation	Posted - 2007.02.20 08:19:00 - [73] Edited by: Dmian on 20/02/2007 08:19:31 Originally by: Jerusalem Man I wonder how many people realise we have an EVE Knowledgebase (under EVE Support on the homepage), I only found it quite recently. (...) Invention It doesn't have everything but it is a good starting point for looking up specific questions. If CCP could keep this up to date and fill it out with a bit more detail (eg I wanted to know how corp tax works) it would go a long way towards the ops request. Between this and the sticky in the EVE New Citizens Q&A forum which contains the Official Players Guide and links to a lot of the guides I'd say they do a fair job documentation. That's correct, but the sticky in the EVE New Citizens Q&A forum collects guides made by players, not CCP. For example the excellent Miners' Guide is made by Halada and the Maps are made by Ombey. The outdated CCP Official guide is there, but the rest is user created. The knowledgebase may be useful if someone has made the appropiate question and if it has been replyed. What I mean is that CCP made and effort to document in the past, but for some strange reason they abbandoned it. And the players (with their limitations in resources, time, and knowledge) took the time to cover some of the holes. But, as the game is growing and the player base gets bigger (and if CCP is serious about having lots of new players, and it seems they are) they need proper documentation to instruct those new players. I still belive they should seriously think about creating a documentation cell. It will really pay off. We need and updated Official guide. We need an official miners guide. We need an official combat guide. We need an official missions guide. We need official maps. We need an official career counseling guide. A guide to weapons and ships and how to fit them, etc. CCP can't (and shouldn't) rely always on used driven content for documentation. It has limits. It's not complete. If they managed to create a wonderful guide for Exodus I don't know why they are not able to create one for Revelations. And create more documentation. The game is becoming more and more complex with each release. It's very important that new players be able to have some guide to help them to face this huge and complex universe. If not, some players may feel frustrated against the 3 years or so knowled other players and alliance have on the game and feel they have nothing to do here (and just plain leave). Regards.
CodeR70 Gallente The Dutch	Posted - 2007.02.20 09:45:00 - [74] Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch How do you document something as complex as EvE? Well, at least you can start to make an effort on it! It really annoys the hell out of me that they wont even bother with these things. The Wiki was talked about a long long time ago, there was even a job offer for that. So where is it? The online manual is pre-RMR. The item database is crap. At least the knowledge base makes some sense but I bet it will be out of date soon. And thank god that the community is willing to make an effort and post some good guides in the forums. These people should be paid IMHO. Instead that devs play the game, they should put in some effort to write some stuff down. It's what you get paid for as well! My boss tells me that over and over again. And yes, as a developer, I hate writing documentation as well. But work is not always "fun". And it's the only way my users understand what I so carefully created.
CodeR70 Gallente The Dutch	Posted - 2007.02.20 10:02:00 - [75] Originally by: Mr Pacman This is true for well documented systems. However, Eve is hardly a well documented program. After all, CCP has admitted they don't fully understand why billboards work the way they do simply because the person that programmed them left. Which is the whole point. And if this is really true then it's time for new management (not devs). It's pretty convenient to point to people who left and people who didn't manage to take over their jobs. But it's something you can avoid at all by DOCUMENTING your system. Both from a technical as user point of views. On the other hand, a good written program is almost self documenting. But for some kind of reason pressured!! developers end up witting spaghetti-code. Source QA is the absolute foundation of your product. A consistent coding style is the best way to start. BTW, I don't think this is valid for CCP, maybe partially. It's just an observation during my time as a developer myself. And I also know we are not living in a perfect world.
Tarkan Kador Amarr PanTarkan Kador Holdings	Posted - 2007.02.20 17:43:00 - [76] Edited by: Tarkan Kador on 20/02/2007 17:39:55 You know, just because rules and systems change, doesn't mean that a rulebook is pointless. Before the internet, we played on tabletop. We had rulebooks then, and updates peroidically in addendums or supplements. But think of a big, 300+ page hardbound rulebook, Games Workshop style, filled with glossy pictures, loads of artwork, fiction, chronicles, etc. That becomes more than just a "rulebook." It becomes a work of art in its own right. Please resize your signature picture to be no more than 24000 bytes, 400x120 pixels. - Devil ([email protected])

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