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Rekria
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Posted - 2007.02.22 02:38:00 -
[1]
Inital Reactions to Oveur's Dev Blog of 2/21/07
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Forcing higher level missions to be low security only is a bad idea. EVE is a pvp oriented game I understand that but it'd nullify most of the high reward mission items such as faction battleships because hardly anyone is going to take thier CNR out into low security to get scanned out and popped by pirates. Even mission runners operating in a gang will get scanned out and then if the pirate gang is larger they'll decide to strike or if the pirate gang is smaller than the mission gang then there won't be a problem. Allowing capital ships to do missions will basically turn EVE into a capital ship fun for all, which many people cannot afford to loose a carrier every month or two from roaming pirate gangs. Heck even a t2 fitted battleship would hurt alot loss wise.
Sure EVE is a pvp game but moving out to 0.0 is almost pointless now (the other option from missions really), everyone will think you're a spy for the other side in this giant war, the pvp battles in 0.0 are usually so laggy that you can jump into a system and appear 10 minutes later in your pod. Which is way too pointless of a loss for me. And not everyone has the time a 0.0 alliance requires.
Low-security space is unattractive now due to the pirates, and forcing more people to go out to the pirates will only frusterate some people and drive them to stop playing. Perhaps they shouldn't be playing in the first place but perhaps there should be a disclaimer explaining how pvp oriented the game is, so people are aware before they invest a few months into EVE.
It'd be possible for pirate corporations or pirate alliances to sweep down and control many different mission running hubs which then forces mission runners to concentrate in other systems where the pirate alliances can focus thier attacks with limited numbers and achieve greater effectiveness.
Summary
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1) I think moving high lvl agents exclusively to low security is a bad idea.
2) Moving high lvl agents to low security will eliminate or severly reduce the market for faction battleships and faction modules; and implants in a sense since no one will want to use thier clone with a 400 mil 5% missle launcher rof implant anymore.
3) Trying to make eve more PVP oriented when pvp ends up being blob warfare which the server/software cannot handle resuling in frustration and pointless losses.
4) Pirates would beable to prey on people of their choosing by scanning people out in missions and comparing gang sizes.
5) Capital Ships will rule mission runners now since most people lack the skills and isk to buy and support one, and whoever can blob more of them wins... Not to mention solo mission runners get nerfed here since cap ships require atleast two characters to move between systems.
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Gzashon
Black Projects Development
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Posted - 2007.02.22 05:28:00 -
[2]
I'm pretty horrified by much of whats in that post.
Some great ideas (new and better missions, new agent levels, capital class missions), followed by a slew of awful ones (No ISK bounties, mandatory low and 0.0 b/s to make any money, ridiculous stuff about exploration and mini-profession things when the current implementation of even basic exploration includes tons of worthless sites with worthless rewards and beyond 10/10 complex difficulty)...
Basically, bad things happen when developers say "OK, you are all now going to start playing the way we say" after years of player development.
This is the latest in a seriously ugly turn of developer thinking and behavior that has disturbed me quite a bit in the past few months. Well, i guess it couldn't be good forever, could it?
At least I know now when i either need to be a) making money independent of missions or ratting, and have things to do when i want to play but not risk a 1bil ship investment b) have my carrier built and carrier alt trained, and be willing to risk them doing low-sec missions with lousy insurance coverage or c) back to being chained to a teamspeak mic every moment of gameplay just so i can be pegged into a little safe area in 0.0 to do missions which usually involve just me.
Brilliant.
...although, if they say "revelations 2, summer", that probably means revelations 2.x or 3 sometime next year. In this case, i'm glad they're going so slowly.
And for people who reply and say "omg deal, goto 0.0 noob why u do missions boring laaaawl", i've been there, done that, got bored and if you don't like this stuff, don't do it! Its a sandbox, go play. Shoo.
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Decard Sune
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Posted - 2007.02.22 05:30:00 -
[3]
I guess the DEV's finally found a way to give the pirates what they want, easy mission runner kills.
This won't get people out of high sec, we're staying there for a reason. So I hope they're prepared for lots of players to drop back to level 3's and keep doing the high sec missions.
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Dammar
Amarr
Ephorate
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Posted - 2007.02.22 06:32:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Dammar on 22/02/2007 06:30:04
 Originally by: Gzashon
I'm pretty horrified by much of whats in that post.
Some great ideas (new and better missions, new agent levels, capital class missions), followed by a slew of awful ones (No ISK bounties, mandatory low and 0.0 b/s to make any money, ridiculous stuff about exploration and mini-profession things when the current implementation of even basic exploration includes tons of worthless sites with worthless rewards and beyond 10/10 complex difficulty)...
Basically, bad things happen when developers say "OK, you are all now going to start playing the way we say" after years of player development.
This is the latest in a seriously ugly turn of developer thinking and behavior that has disturbed me quite a bit in the past few months. Well, i guess it couldn't be good forever, could it?
At least I know now when i either need to be a) making money independent of missions or ratting, and have things to do when i want to play but not risk a 1bil ship investment b) have my carrier built and carrier alt trained, and be willing to risk them doing low-sec missions with lousy insurance coverage or c) back to being chained to a teamspeak mic every moment of gameplay just so i can be pegged into a little safe area in 0.0 to do missions which usually involve just me.
Brilliant.
...although, if they say "revelations 2, summer", that probably means revelations 2.x or 3 sometime next year. In this case, i'm glad they're going so slowly.
And for people who reply and say "omg deal, goto 0.0 noob why u do missions boring laaaawl", i've been there, done that, got bored and if you don't like this stuff, don't do it! Its a sandbox, go play. Shoo.
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.
Capital ship gangs in low-sec running misions....ooook. 
edit: Maybe they will make mission as valuable as exploration has been? How's that booster market doing huh? Yea.
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Toria Nynys
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.22 06:35:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Decard Sune
I guess the DEV's finally found a way to give the pirates what they want, easy mission runner kills.
This won't get people out of high sec, we're staying there for a reason. So I hope they're prepared for lots of players to drop back to level 3's and keep doing the high sec missions.
Would you do L3s without the bounties? I know I wouldn't bother.
No, prepare to mine scordite in empire if you don't want any part of 0.0 blobfare. Capship blobfare if the current trends hold.
p.s. why the new thread, as opposed to the thread discussing the actual blog?
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violeti
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.22 06:55:00 -
[6]
well from what ive seen of this game ppl who dont like pvp but like fighting do missions (like me). As they are going to nerf missions now unless you go into low sec and force ppl into pvp situations with pirates there is going to be alot more ppl mining. As its soon going to be the only thing to do without being forced into pvp. Until they make eve 1.0 for noobs to start in with no belts and everywhere elss lawless and 0.0 like.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Originally by: Lexiana Del'Amore
Exploration = another CCP brainfart 15minutes before patch deployment... |
0raven0
Dark-Rising
Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.02.22 06:57:00 -
[7]
Yay finally forcing you scaredy cats out of your wholes. I personally will have to come back to missions when this is implemented. And pirates can't get you in deadspace. They know they only have a 1/100th of their normal chance, that itself not really high, to find you. Forget pirates they are not as tuff as you think, their nano ships are getting nerfed soon...
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"Align to" button!
Salvage ship |
Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.02.22 07:22:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Shameless Avenger on 22/02/2007 07:55:59
I just saw this. Still haven't read the blog. But I can say this:
1) With the latest mission nerfs it's not worth doing, even in high sec. Moving to low sec will only kill missioning.
2) CCP, didn't you learn anything from the last rabble rabble when ppl where scanning mission runners?
3) NON pvp players have enough grief already. CCP, if you keep adding more grief to your game you gonna have to *self-snip*.
Now, I'm going to read the blog so I could whine/flame properly.
Update...
OK, I read the blog now. I don't see any movement of the lvl 4 agents. I see the creation of lvl 5's in low sec. Guess we gonna have to wait and see...
the T2 thing, that's another story. |
ShinChan
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Posted - 2007.02.22 08:29:00 -
[9]
Do you guys know what the scanner is? and how to use it?
I do missions in low sec and never got killed. Sure, they try to find me, but I have the scanner opened and scanning periodically to see if they are using probes near me.
Tip: Directional Scan - 360¦ - Max Range
Less complain and more brains.
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MuffinsRevenger
EmpiresMod
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Posted - 2007.02.22 10:29:00 -
[10]
There is people running missions just for the fun and relaxation of exploding things you know...
I myself can't be competly tied up to the computer, i need to be able to go away from the keyboard for a couple of seconds, and you can't really do that if you are intending on running missions in lowsec (well, not really annyways)
so for me, that would mean that i could only run missions with the corp during a few hours each weekend, perhaps less
and that kinda really do suck :| |
Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2007.02.22 10:49:00 -
[11]
Originally by: ShinChan
Do you guys know what the scanner is? and how to use it?
I do missions in low sec and never got killed. Sure, they try to find me, but I have the scanner opened and scanning periodically to see if they are using probes near me.
Tip: Directional Scan - 360¦ - Max Range
Less complain and more brains.
Always the same flawed arguments from the gankbears...
You can be probed in mere 20 secs. Are you honestly telling me that you probe every few seconds so you have enough time to align, kill the inties currently scramming you and warp out? 
And the probing is not nearly as hard as the gankbears make it out to be either...
The ways to protect yourself from lowsec piracy take any fun and efficiency out of lowsec mission running. Right now we can go back to highsec. But if CCP dumbs down lvl4s to lvl3s, and puts all missions that present a challenge to a faction ship into lowsec, missioning will lose all its attraction to me. And considering that collecting, building and using (yes using, in PvE, as opposed to losing in PvP) faction ships is 50% of my driving force in EVE...
---------
There is no 'n' in turret
There is no 'r' in faction
There is no 'a' in Kestrel
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ShinChan
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Posted - 2007.02.22 10:59:00 -
[12]
This may sound rude Leandro, but lear2play. You should be already aligned.
And if you want to be relaxed while doing missions, you will still have lvl 3 in empire.
Otherwise, If you wanna be rich, you better be ready, awake and aware on what's happening around you.
We will finally get rid of those node laggers that sit in empire collecting millions of isk without doing nothing.
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CPL Nobbes
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Posted - 2007.02.22 11:16:00 -
[13]
This has been sometime coming, but coming it was. Personally I play Eve as a more arcade style game. Log when I have an hour or so free, run a mission or two in high sec alone or with some corp mates. Log off. The changes as described in the Dev blog will just ensure I vote with my feet and wallet and take my money elsewhere. It would appear that CCP have decided that the Eve universe can do without players like me (and my experience has been there are quite a few)and my monthly subscription money. Given that it's their world, thats fine. It's good to see a company strong enough to alienate some % of it's customer base as a matter of principle. So I am not going to complain or have a go at others who do play the way CCP feel the game should be played. I will just go quietly when the time comes.
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Scrutt5
Profiteers of War
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Posted - 2007.02.22 11:18:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Scrutt5 on 22/02/2007 11:17:54
Dont use drones and you wont get scanned down.
Your mission running ship is protected by the deadspace but your drones are not. Scanning and warping to your drone signature is the way most pirates are scanning your position down. The only other time your vunerable is when warping between rooms, again your not protected during warp. Dont use drones and ship scan before activiating the warp gate and your as safe as houses.
We recently ran many tests using a perfect covert ops pilot and I can assure you that if you follow these steps you will remain safe in missions.
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ShinChan
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Posted - 2007.02.22 11:21:00 -
[15]
Also, I bet that with the upcoming changes drones will be protected aswell. It's kinda ridiculous to keep gallente pilots out of the equation just because they use drones more than any other race.
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Imuran
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Posted - 2007.02.22 11:30:00 -
[16]
Bo problem with level 5+ being low sec. Big problem with nerfing the current level 4 and the removal of bounties.
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Scrutt5
Profiteers of War
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Posted - 2007.02.22 11:40:00 -
[17]
Having read the dev blog now, I'm all for the changes lets move the game forward.
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2007.02.22 11:56:00 -
[18]
Originally by: ShinChan
This may sound rude Leandro, but lear2play. You should be already aligned.
And if you want to be relaxed while doing missions, you will still have lvl 3 in empire.
Otherwise, If you wanna be rich, you better be ready, awake and aware on what's happening around you.
We will finally get rid of those node laggers that sit in empire collecting millions of isk without doing nothing.
Yay for being aligned all the time while approaching the next warp gate!
Yay for being aligned all the time when the only warpable objects are behind NPC blobs.
Yay for being aligned all the time when you are using a gunship.
Clearly you are an expert on mission running...
And lvl3s are soooooo much fun to do in a pimped out CNR :/
I do know how to play missions. So I do know that all measures that can be taken to prepare for mission busters are far, oh yes very far indeed from a 100% protection, and totally destroy your isk/time.
And when I got probed out last I was in my lootergeddon, so did NOT have drones out. All it takes is for the pirates to have a good network of probing spots, which is maybe half a days work on all runner systems in a region.
And I would much rather get rid of the node crashers in 0.0 that bend the rules beyond the breaking point at every turn and collect billions of ISK in plexes without doing anything...
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There is no 'n' in turret
There is no 'r' in faction
There is no 'a' in Kestrel
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ShinChan
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Posted - 2007.02.22 12:08:00 -
[19]
You seriously need to evolve or it's Game Over for you Leandro :(
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Wicked Spider
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Posted - 2007.02.22 12:12:00 -
[20]
im a hardcore mission runner myself but i must say that the suggested changes by CCP are very interesting.
to those who dont have time to play all day or want to play safe u still will be able to do so. just with lower rewards.
the graduate move to low sec using higher level agents is a wellcomed change to those that want some challange.
i see the transition of agents into low sec as a gentile "nudge" by ccp saying ok you can still pve but with greater risk - and if you into that, there is also a whole world of pvp interaction out there - you should try it.
lets face it. running mission is plain and simple boring.you get tons of money spend it on the best ships and equipment and for what? to be able to outank 8 bs with a medium repper II?
there comes the issue of ballance though, which is going to be very hard.
let the poeple that dont have much time or dont like pvp stay in empire and give them the means to have fun and make a living. make the rewards in low sec interesting so that the players will spread the word.
my advice to CCP is whatever you do- do not force it on the players, regardless on how much ppl cry in the forums. make it a transition, implementation is the key here.
all of the changes suggested by CCP seem awsome to me. a real potential of having fun and challenge.
with the current state of the game this is sadly impossible to do. changes and fixes need to be made. the ability to scan out drones for example or the bugged exploration system, too many choked low sec entry points - crappy market in 0.0 just some examples
all in all i think that the intended changes are a blessing.
pvp is not my cup of tea i must admit but with the current mission system i feel brain cells slowly dying, its a constant grind no action, and fun is fading away.
i am excited about the changes but sadly from my experience from the game and CCP is that they have great ideas and features but the implementaion is just horrible.
we talking about whole new game posiblities here ppl - try to embrace it.
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2007.02.22 12:17:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 22/02/2007 12:15:43
Wrong smiley you put there, your ilk rejoices for every one of mine that quits afaict...
Alas I have not run a mission in 2 weeks or more, doing cosmos on my alt and preparing for a 0.0 move on my main...
Still if they really nerf highsec L4s into oblivion as proposed, my days are likely numbered, as I will not forget my mission runner roots and might quit on principle alone. (Not to mention 0.0 spewing a disgusted me back out into highsec due to being fed up with all the cheating going on there. At least NPCs play fair  )
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There is no 'n' in turret
There is no 'r' in faction
There is no 'a' in Kestrel
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Parat Attar
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Posted - 2007.02.22 12:35:00 -
[22]
What am I doing wrong? I've been running missions in low sec for months and I have yet to be probed or attacked by a pirate.
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Sinder Ohm
Infinite Improbability Inc
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.22 12:48:00 -
[23]
There is already a thread set up to discuss this but anyways....
I dont understand what the problem is I realy dont why should mission runners (I also started making isk like this) get a licence to print risk free isk (for those that maintain NPCs pose a risk LOL they are so predictable).
Whats wrong with organizing mission running gangs you all hook up on ts keep an eye on local and police your mission running system?! IS IT THAT HARD
You cant have your cake and eat it.
On a side note if CCP made NPCs vulnurable to ewar this would change PVE setups slightly which should give you an edge on pirates.
Originally by: Blind Man
okies so liek when u warp in on them u shod target them... and stuff k.then u FIRE ZE MISSILES
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Siri Blue
Gallente
Duvolle Laboratories Blue Division
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Posted - 2007.02.22 13:32:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Siri Blue on 22/02/2007 13:30:20
I can live with bounties being removed or reduced (as long as this happens to belt rats as well), I can live with being forced to loot and salvage in order to get something out of a mission and hack containers and dig for artifacts...I can also live with a blackmarket LP store where you have to pay lots of ISK on top of your LP to get decent goodies...
What I CANNOT live with is being forced into low sec or 0.0 in order to run high end missions!!!
I am an Empire Roleplayer! I live in the Gallente Federation and I love the Gallente Federation! I want to be able to run my missions in my empire and use my carrier in those missions as well, I don't want to struggle with some l33t PvP Pirate kiddies that can't even properly spell an insult.
If the story of a mission is good and the reward adequate I will possibly go to the outskirts of the Federation (lowsec) and defend it but I want to do this cause I CHOSE to do it and not because I was FORCED to do this.
Here is a nice quote:
Kaptein Trefot Posted - 2007.02.21 23:20:00 - [32] - Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a lot of carebears in this game and the only universal issue that angers carebears is an attempt to force your game-play upon them. There are a lot of high sec mission-runners and those ppl simply donĘt want to play the PvP game you are offering in low sec and 0.0.
If your 'idea' of how you intended this game to be is more important than your business, than this is the way to go. If you want the player-base in eve to grow, you should definitely rethink the consequences of these changes to high sec missions.
Force a playing style on a carebear and it will be the last time you see him.
Quote end
CCP gets a CHEEERS! from me to finally adressing missions, agents, LP store and other issues and finally adding new missions...
But this PvP orientation crap you get the middle finger for. If I want to PvP I will do so, don't the bloody frakk force me to!!! 
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WrathchildeVOTF
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Posted - 2007.02.22 13:38:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sinder Ohm
There is already a thread set up to discuss this but anyways....
I dont understand what the problem is I realy dont why should mission runners (I also started making isk like this) get a licence to print risk free isk (for those that maintain NPCs pose a risk LOL they are so predictable).
Whats wrong with organizing mission running gangs you all hook up on ts keep an eye on local and police your mission running system?! IS IT THAT HARD
You cant have your cake and eat it.
On a side note if CCP made NPCs vulnurable to ewar this would change PVE setups slightly which should give you an edge on pirates.
Is it hard? No
Is it worthwhile? Again, no.
*If* new missions are introduced, or the bounty/reward scales for all involved int he mission, a "mission-gang" would be viable. Dividing the rewards amongst the gang would not be.
Would you be willing to spend 4-6 hours a day shooting at NPC's for a corpmate? Add to that you get no faction, and a fraction of the bounties. No add to that doing these missions for 3 weeks to get faction up to doing Lvl 4's.
Even if your corpmate is at lvl 4 missions already, you won't spend the next 6 weeks straight helping him get LP for that CNR he wants.
As far as the Dev blog ideas, some are good, some will destroy this game if implemented as described. See just how high mineral costs go if belts are all moved to exploration sites, for example.
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2007.02.22 13:43:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 22/02/2007 13:42:00
Also if they want missions to be harder they should increase NPC intelligence and make missions less linear.
But I guess it is much easier to just move them to gankland than to improve the AI code :/
As for gang ops hooked on TS/Vent, I think that is what 0.0 is there for, and missioning is there to ESCAPE just that...
Oh and I also wonder, if the ISK influx from PvE is oh so bad, do they also remove the overseer effects from plexes? Or is that 'good' ISK because it directly goes to the 0.0 Elite, rather than indirectly like most of the mission runner ISK? 
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There is no 'n' in turret
There is no 'r' in faction
There is no 'a' in Kestrel
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DrVomact
Boards.ie
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Posted - 2007.02.22 13:52:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Sinder Ohm
There is already a thread set up to discuss this but anyways....
I dont understand what the problem is I realy dont why should mission runners (I also started making isk like this) get a licence to print risk free isk (for those that maintain NPCs pose a risk LOL they are so predictable).
Whats wrong with organizing mission running gangs you all hook up on ts keep an eye on local and police your mission running system?! IS IT THAT HARD
You cant have your cake and eat it.
On a side note if CCP made NPCs vulnurable to ewar this would change PVE setups slightly which should give you an edge on pirates.
By that logic I don't see why miners should get a licence to print risk free isk. All those asteroids just lying around in high sec. Whats wrong with organizing mining gangs you all hook up on ts keep an eye on local and police your mission running system?! IS IT THAT HARD
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Osric Wuscfrea
Gallente
Brethren Of Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.22 13:57:00 -
[28]
So you want us to do levels 5s in low sec in our very expensive ship/implants/rigs which are specialised for mission running (PvE).
The same area infested with pRats with ships/implants/rigs specialsed for PvP. Which means a lot of expensive hardware going pop.
I think I see a flaw in your plan CCP, unless you intend to alter the imbalance between PvP-PvE setups.
Oh, that and your strange wish in this free-form galaxy, advertised as a place where you can do as you please, as long as it's PvP...
--
Rgds
Mike
WWW.Dead-Fish.com Deep Sea Daddies... |
Corrino Irulan
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.22 14:01:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Corrino Irulan on 22/02/2007 13:58:55
I have reservations about the ISK being replaced by LP. Where is the difference ? You switch from a currency based system to a value trading system. Both will still be driven by the amount of LP and/or ISK being earned running these missions. Again, I do not see how this will stop inflation, it is like switching the paying method for oil from gold to dollars ... that surely stopped inflation
I also have reservations with the introduction of new levels :
I have no objection lowering the threshold between lvl 3 and lvl 4 missions, but raising the threshold between lvl 4 and lvl 5 by moving them to =< 0.4 sec systems is ridiculous.
How about leaving lvl 5 in high sec and make them so hard that you need, for example, at least 4 fully fitted faction battleships and logistic support to at least have a 25% chance of completing the mission.
At least that way you force a transition to group/gang play before you throw them into low sec.
I see no problems with the rest of the suggestions, and am happy to see some more pathways opening up to nudge players into low sec and 0.0 ... just make sure to nudge them instead of dragging them kicking and screaming into it. 
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Kery Nysell
Caldari
Nysell Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.02.22 14:08:00 -
[30]
Originally by: ShinChan
We will finally get rid of those node laggers that sit in empire collecting millions of isk without doing nothing.
LOL
Are you aware that the "node lagging" is mostly due to the "blob warfare" in 0.0 ?
Do you realize that forcing people to bring gangs in lowsec to do missions will only result in MORE blobs, and so more "node lagging" ?
And please, you CAN'T get "filthy rich" doing highsec lvl 4 missions, the real ISK-makers are the 0.0 complexes, belt rats and juicy roids out there ...
I've been a "highsec carebear" by choice for almost two years now, I find the "direct player versus player combat" even more boring than mining Veldspar AFK in an industrial, but that's MY CHOICE, and MY style of play ... I DON'T try to force other players to play like I do, because I respect THEIR choices ...
And about your comment about being aligned ... spoken like someone who never did any missions, or else you would know that it's not always possible ...
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