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Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.25 19:25:00 - [61] Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik The only comment Im going to bother posting here (I live in the new regions- I know what its like) is that im surprised that ccp went this way with the drone loot. While the market has balanced out and does not need external pressure to change it for the sake of "demand/supply" or "Not fair noooose!111!11" I do think it is contridictory to what ccp's goal was by introducing the new regions in the first place. I thought the idea was to get people out of empire space and start utilising 0.0 and low sec more. Now with the drop in high and mid minerals there is little reason to mine in 0.0 over empire (risk vs reward) and even less to do anything in low sec. What we have is an even large polarisation of "carebears" sticking to empire mining trit and "pvpers" staying out in 0.0 npcing to make a living. I think the issue really is balance. Nerfing mission running payouts marginally and definately reducing the amount of loot drops in npc's and mission running would go a long way to restoring "balance". Im sure alot of pvpers and mission runners would disagree however as they want cheap ships and easy money. I think the miners are getting a raw deal tbh. Would you explain your logic again? Drone loot has lowered the value of zydrine so the solution is lower mission pay out and the already bad loot? It is something on the lines of bad for all, so it is good?
Allen Deckard Gallente WTB Supplies	Posted - 2007.03.25 19:44:00 - [62] Originally by: Pellaeon DuGalle So the zyd price is down, and people who depend on zyd prices are hurting. What makes you think anything is wrong? (such that it needs fixing) What you're alluding it is akin to Ford or GM petitioning world's governments to somehow restore their profit margins simply because less people are buying SUVs & 4 wheel drives. Demand and supply. Welcome to a new economic situation. Actually your incorrect. Ford and gm do not have a god like power that suddenly distroys their markets all together. Dont get me wrong I kinda like the zyde prices now as I dont mine zyde so my profit margins have increased but personally everyone that keeps saying eve is a free trade blah blah blah crap is so wrong it aint funny ccp controls the world they control what is good and bad. Not to long ago damage controls no matter what the name were crap. gank a giddion was most feared ship in the game. I can go on and on. CCP made a change in mineral prices like it or not free trade had crap to do with it. Kentucky where the goats roam and the rednecks run free
18 Rabbit	Posted - 2007.03.26 03:03:00 - [63] What about morphite? That comes from the new regions also? No recovery in sight for morphite? Does invention kill the morphite market too?
Veto1024	Posted - 2007.03.26 03:13:00 - [64] Why don't people realize this is a PLAYER-based economy? What's CCP going to do? Make ships cost more zydrine? This is what seperates good players from bad players. Good players adapt. Hell that's how real life works.
Rann Antares Gallente omen. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.03.26 03:45:00 - [65] Originally by: Neveren Anyways, Figured id make a thread about it for discussion as to what CCP should do to help remedy the situation given, somthing ingame has had to drasticly change in order for this to occur, and honistly it should be remedied to bring the market back in line with its former self. Price fixing in a player driven economy? I think not! We, the players, by our choice of actions and reactions to a player-driven market economy, affect the prices. It's a cause and effect relationship; it's the beauty of the Eve-Online market. Let supply and demand rule. Don't fix prices just because some miners who caused the zydrine depression in the first place are now crying about it affecting their wallet. The natural order of the free market system is a series of overcorrections. As more and more people stop over-producing zydrine, it will become more scarce and prices will rise again. Go mine nocxium!
Kylar Renpurs	Posted - 2007.03.26 04:28:00 - [66] pfft, my pyerite! it's gone up 250% from 4 isk to 10, nearly 11 isk
Oceemia Caldari Quantar Swords SynchronizerZ	Posted - 2007.03.26 05:31:00 - [67] so miners should adept? ccp spawns massive minerals out of a non roid source killig all northern miners? if you think thats free market fine. but than the outcome of rats missions should be based on how manny people mission run / rat. lets say 1 is killing a gurista : 1 mio bounty. if 2 people are killing guristas you get 950k. all fine. free market isnt it ?
Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.03.26 09:01:00 - [68] Originally by: Laboratus It's not just the drone regions, even though they drop disproportionate amounts of stuff that refines into high ends. It also has something to do with all the top 20-50 alliances dumping their high ends into market to get isk to fund their wars. I'd really like to know what moron originally came up with this idea so that I could punch them. Every blithering moron in the game knows that minerals aren't worth anything until you sell them; you don't build a rainy-day fund by stockpiling minerals but instead by stockpiling ISK. The drop in prices can clearly be attributed to the new regions, so let's stop lying to ourselves and let these stupid little theories rest in peace. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.26 09:42:00 - [69] Originally by: Verite Rendition Originally by: Laboratus It's not just the drone regions, even though they drop disproportionate amounts of stuff that refines into high ends. It also has something to do with all the top 20-50 alliances dumping their high ends into market to get isk to fund their wars. I'd really like to know what moron originally came up with this idea so that I could punch them. Every blithering moron in the game knows that minerals aren't worth anything until you sell them; you don't build a rainy-day fund by stockpiling minerals but instead by stockpiling ISK. The drop in prices can clearly be attributed to the new regions, so let's stop lying to ourselves and let these stupid little theories rest in peace. As silly as it sounds, there may be truth in his words. Some 0.0 markets are STILL flooded today with hundreds of millions of units of minerals from ASCN's demise at a fraction of Todays Jita price. Even some low ends that are so cheap, you can basically carry dozens of freightor loads to empire to, yes, sell lowends for upto 500% markups -- Billion Isk Mission
Vasiliyan PAX Interstellar Services Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.26 10:48:00 - [70] Originally by: hired goon Oh god you silly fools. This is no act of a player run economy. This particular economy was touched by the hand of god who decided to re-balance the market. As far as I know - in real life - god doesn't devinely intervene with the stock market while giggling to himself. Maybe you should look at the agricultural futures market, which is there because the prices of agricultural goods fluctuate wildly due to acts of God. Or the effect on oil prices of hurricane Katrina, or the explosion of Buncefield oil refinery.
Laboratus Gallente BGG Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.03.26 11:09:00 - [71] Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Verite Rendition Originally by: Laboratus stuff stuff As silly as it sounds, there may be truth in his words. Some 0.0 markets are STILL flooded today with hundreds of millions of units of minerals from ASCN's demise at a fraction of Todays Jita price. Even some low ends that are so cheap, you can basically carry dozens of freightor loads to empire to, yes, sell lowends for upto 500% markups Ok. What do you do for gathering isk when preparing for war and during that war? At least in the north, the easiest way was to mine crokite. It gave 50-67M/h per miner. A decent sized belt cleaning op would give the enough zyd to buy those towers and eq needed for ops in a few hours. It was a thing you can do as a co-ordinated effort. No other income source can be coordinated like that... Just look at the timing of the price crash and compare it to when the big boys went to war, and a perfect correlation can be found... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
OneSock PLuSQuAMPERFEkT iNc	Posted - 2007.03.26 11:27:00 - [72] It really depends if the over supply inbalance is enough to cause zydrine saturation of Eve. If it isn't then at some point the price should level out. If on the other hand there is more Zydrine being created than can ever be taken out of the game, then in effect it will become a worthless resouce. It's the same with ISK inflation, there must be taps and sinks. Zydrine taps: T1 loot drops from NPCs, Drone alloys, mining, ? Zydrine sinks: destruction of mods/ships from PVP/other combat. We know that CCP increased the drone alloy supply in the new region, we also know loot drops are favoured over bounties in missions so that source may also be increasing. We don't know of any changes in the sinks. Unless there's any massive wars kicking off. CCP would need to increase requirement for module/ship manufacture to make the sink bigger. So the only change the players can make which would affect this is to basically stop mining zyd ores. If the price drops to the point where this is no longer cost effective then it should find a balance and the price will level off.
Rabbitual Ferrier	Posted - 2007.03.26 12:33:00 - [73] Hmmm stop mining zydrine is probably the best answer. The interesting thing is the price hasn't just crashed in 0.0 but in High Sec an awful lot of ore prices have slumped recently (although they seem to be recovering). Still 1.3K per unit mined isn't exactly small potatoes.... What would be interesting is whether this drop in ISK profits leads to 'isk farmer/macromining' to be abandoned in place of more rewarding missioning/ratting and the likes (which would of course then lead to a rise in ore prices....) Welcome to ecconomics of supply and demand!
18 Rabbit	Posted - 2007.03.26 14:18:00 - [74] Tangent: So how about morphite? Is it part of the same dynamic as zydrine? Does it drop in the drone regions too? Why has that gone from 15k to 5k and is there any expectation of recovery? And before you start your programmed "zomg player-driven economy" rant, I'm just asking here. What are the dynamics of the morphite market and is it different than zydrine? Doesn't invention supplementing traditional t2 production suggest that morphite will go down -- just on the introduction of invention alone, never mind new regions?
Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.03.27 10:35:00 - [75] Originally by: 18 Rabbit Tangent: So how about morphite? Is it part of the same dynamic as zydrine? Does it drop in the drone regions too? Why has that gone from 15k to 5k and is there any expectation of recovery? And before you start your programmed "zomg player-driven economy" rant, I'm just asking here. What are the dynamics of the morphite market and is it different than zydrine? Doesn't invention supplementing traditional t2 production suggest that morphite will go down -- just on the introduction of invention alone, never mind new regions? The Skiff gave a wrecking blow to Morphite. It will never recover. Oh, and Rabittual, no one will stop mining Crokite as long as they can't find Bistot/Arkonor to replace it. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.27 10:39:00 - [76] Morphite also comes from the new regions, one of the alloys has some. -------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft.
Blue Stratos Amarr BOOM - Gotcha	Posted - 2007.03.27 10:44:00 - [77] Originally by: Neveren I would first and formost like to thanks DS a popular forum who..err poster for quoting the phrase The great zyd depression.. Now .. has anyone else noticed the HUGE and by HUGE i mean HUGE Decline in zyd prices?... yes im sure you have.. And im sure you and people you know can make up 10 reasons for them.. fact is miners who lived off crokite.. are hurting. not cranking that 65 mill an hour like the old days .. =( Anyways, Figured id make a thread about it for discussion as to what CCP should do to help remedy the situation given, somthing ingame has had to drasticly change in order for this to occur, and honistly it should be remedied to bring the market back in line with its former self. 65Mil an hour huh? So u complain about lvl 4 ***s whos struggle to make 15mil an hour, get our missions nerfed to hell and now that ur wallets are hurting u come here and BITYCH about zyd prices pot kettle black im glad there going down, the whole market of eve needs to go down, n tbh KEEP MINING ZYD IN DRONE REGIONS, Originally by:** CCP Sharkbait think the problem is found. last startup now.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.27 10:55:00 - [78] I find it amusing that people are complaining about zyd prices bankrupting miners. What about megacyde prices? Surely these people can mine ark insted? -- Billion Isk Mission
Wendat Huron Lupus Industries	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:00:00 - [79] Originally by: Veto1024 Why don't people realize this is a PLAYER-based economy? What's CCP going to do? Make ships cost more zydrine? This is what seperates good players from bad players. Good players adapt. Hell that's how real life works. They did this for mexallon with capital ships.
Tiidan Soban Nuclear Rental Service	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:07:00 - [80] Actually zyd prices are returning to normal from way back in 04, many of you that are whining dont realize this. I guess the miners no longer have the "IWINEVE" button anymore and may have to actually work to make isk in the game now OH NOES!! _____________________________________ oOoOoOo FiReWoRkS!!! :D
Arron S Gallente Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:25:00 - [81] Edited by: Arron S on 27/03/2007 11:29:49 Muhahaha, I remember when I could sell, 70,000 units of zydrine for 2,500 isk per unit, under cuting everyone.. err I mean!!!! I'm not a drone ***** or a carebear Anyway, yeah, new drone regions = lots and lots of zydrine, how ever, the low ends have gone way up and I bet the price of POS fuels will go up as well since CCP is removing ice belts from empire... The new drone regions seem to have a lot of ice too=)... so yeah... the prices of stront, Isotopes, Liquid zone and heavy water will all probably go UP over the next few months, good thing I bought 400,000 units of heavy water:) Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.03.27 13:12:00 - [82] Will people stop banging on about the "Free market". This is a GAME, isk pays for fun, so before I was getting x amount of fun per hour, now I am getting y, but I'm still paying z in risk. I am annoyed, y is significantly less than x. My fun has been nerfed. I don't have access to Bistot or Arkanor so no, mine another ore is not the magic solution to my ills. I trained to mine to make iskies, it cost me time, it cost me RL cash if you care for the account time = SP argument (which I don't). Few mine for fun, we train those skills to let us earn cash faster than those who didn't bother and get on with doing the things we enjoy. For most of us that's blowing up the stuff that other people worked so hard for. This is quite a hefty nerf, it's not like other nerfs because it's hiding under the market but it's weight makes it rather unsubtle and quite inept at hiding. It's the equivalent of all bounties getting cut in half with the exception of those in -0.8 and below systems, or missions suddenly giving half the LP, ISK, bounties and loot. If this happened there would be uproar, but since it's miners and you can blame the "free" market nobody cares... nay, people actually berate us for our annoyance. IT IS NOT A FREE MARKET god does not suddenly nip down and add several million extra diamond veins to the world. God does not suddenly have each country in the world invent all it's new goods at the same time causing the market to go crazy. God does not "nerf" all the toasters in the world so that they can longer toast on both sides but must do each separately. What people are stating as an act of god here is not, it is the equivalent of an alliance coming in and kicking me out of my region, or me going to the belt to find it stripped bare, it's equivalent of crud happens. It is not the hand of a dark and vengeful god messing with my day, and I'd argue the case that RL floods and other disasters aren't either but this really isn't the place. I would love for CCP to have at least said, "You there, miners, your earning too much isk... no not you farming in empire... No not you either over there in your alliance owned high end systems... Yes you! The little guy in the middle you earn too much." Or perhaps something a little more subtle. Then I would at least know that all this was the intended effect.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.27 13:25:00 - [83] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 27/03/2007 13:24:58 Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Will people stop banging on about the "Free market". This is a GAME, isk pays for fun, so before I was getting x amount of fun per hour, now I am getting y, but I'm still paying z in risk. I am annoyed, y is significantly less than x. My fun has been nerfed. I don't have access to Bistot or Arkanor so no, mine another ore is not the magic solution to my ills. I trained to mine to make iskies, it cost me time, it cost me RL cash if you care for the account time = SP argument (which I don't). Few mine for fun, we train those skills to let us earn cash faster than those who didn't bother and get on with doing the things we enjoy. For most of us that's blowing up the stuff that other people worked so hard for. This is quite a hefty nerf, it's not like other nerfs because it's hiding under the market but it's weight makes it rather unsubtle and quite inept at hiding. It's the equivalent of all bounties getting cut in half with the exception of those in -0.8 and below systems, or missions suddenly giving half the LP, ISK, bounties and loot. If this happened there would be uproar, but since it's miners and you can blame the "free" market nobody cares... nay, people actually berate us for our annoyance. IT IS NOT A FREE MARKET god does not suddenly nip down and add several million extra diamond veins to the world. God does not suddenly have each country in the world invent all it's new goods at the same time causing the market to go crazy. God does not "nerf" all the toasters in the world so that they can longer toast on both sides but must do each separately. What people are stating as an act of god here is not, it is the equivalent of an alliance coming in and kicking me out of my region, or me going to the belt to find it stripped bare, it's equivalent of crud happens. It is not the hand of a dark and vengeful god messing with my day, and I'd argue the case that RL floods and other disasters aren't either but this really isn't the place. I would love for CCP to have at least said, "You there, miners, your earning too much isk... no not you farming in empire... No not you either over there in your alliance owned high end systems... Yes you! The little guy in the middle you earn too much." Or perhaps something a little more subtle. Then I would at least know that all this was the intended effect. Look. If a mission runner was to say "Nor fair, CCP should have told me that Estamels Invurn Fields are going up from 400mil to 10billion." whay would the community do? They would laugh at him. I myself am sitting on a 2billion isk officer item that is currently bugged making it worthless. I would rather ccp take however long it takes to fix that item and any other bugs in the game rather than listen to moans. Take it like a man and find another money maker. Miner II's used to sell for 40million each. Now they sell for 70k. I dont see any Miner II BPO owners complaining... do you? Either Evolve or Set buy orders of hundreds of millions of Zyd at 4k and I am sure people will fill them for you and the price of zyd to rise accordingly. -- Billion Isk Mission
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.03.27 13:55:00 - [84] Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 27/03/2007 13:53:53 We (the mining community ) didn't train in mining for this amount of time to be told, sorry, go run missions/complexes/trade if you want to make reasonable amounts of isk. It's not like we're just talking a month or two of training here. It's not like it's just one guy with a broken item. It's not like we were even top dog before the change in prices. It's not even just miners since the ratters in the drone regions are watching their profits plummet too. [EDIT: There are orders for large quantities of Zyd at 2k that are sat there untouched and will be until supply decreases.]
Blue Stratos Amarr BOOM - Gotcha	Posted - 2007.03.27 14:03:00 - [85] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 27/03/2007 13:53:53 We (the mining community ) didn't train in mining for this amount of time to be told, sorry, go run missions/complexes/trade if you want to make reasonable amounts of isk. It's not like we're just talking a month or two of training here. It's not like it's just one guy with a broken item. It's not like we were even top dog before the change in prices. It's not even just miners since the ratters in the drone regions are watching their profits plummet too. [EDIT: There are orders for large quantities of Zyd at 2k that are sat there untouched and will be until supply decreases.] You are clueless, msot elvel 4 mission runners truggle to make 65mil A DAY, let alone a mil, so don't give me the miners are unfairly treated you have it easy in 0.0 and its about time u where brought into line with empire because you are just an extension of the empire you need to get a clue Originally by: CCP Sharkbait think the problem is found. last startup now.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.27 14:22:00 - [86] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 27/03/2007 14:22:46 Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 27/03/2007 13:53:53 We (the mining community ) didn't train in mining for this amount of time to be told, sorry, go run missions/complexes/trade if you want to make reasonable amounts of isk. It's not like we're just talking a month or two of training here. It's not like it's just one guy with a broken item. It's not like we were even top dog before the change in prices. It's not even just miners since the ratters in the drone regions are watching their profits plummet too. [EDIT: There are orders for large quantities of Zyd at 2k that are sat there untouched and will be until supply decreases.] Perhaps you dont know, but I have max mining skills. Mind you,l I gave up mining months ago, but since your point of minerals lets talk about that. I have a stockpile of Zyd, which is losing value every day, and will continue to lose value. I also have a freightor load of pyerite, all bought in a day at 1isk each from the market many moons ago. This stock has gained 1000% value, given that pyerite sells at almost 10isk/unit now. You win some, and you lose some. Thats what happens when you get involved in trading. Over the last week, I made over 1.7bil profit just buying a bpo cheaply from the eve forums, and then re-selling it a couple of days later. This money is already invested into different projects not related from trading. One such project involves buying bugged or worthless items in a hope of a future CCP fix. It paid off for Top named Damage Controls. It paid off for Local hull I-Stabs. Looks like it is paying off for Local Hull Overdrives as well. So you dont see, nobody is forcing you to be stuck mining crokite forever. Evolve into something else. Never put all your eggs into 1 basket. If you do, then you are limiting youself. And what exactly do you do with your isk? Isk, in my opinion, is worthless unless it is being used to shoot people. And since I am outnumbered almost every day of the week, I need quality fitted ships and hence you need more isk to fund that. So my view is all isk is only useful for investing to generate isk for shooty shooty. For that reason I keep a stockpile of ships all over the place so if I die, 10 seconds and I am back in action in another fully t2 fitted spare ship. My more long term goal is that once I have a major money maker operation setup, I can start fielding Faction Ships, AKA "Pimpmobiles" in pvp. My end goal is to enjoy eve. It is not to be a isk slave or a whiner. I dont whine that I got shot - I take the good with the bad and move forward. Set youself some goals and make a plan to reach them, then the isk will follow you! REMEMBER - If you follow the Crowd, you will never get past the Crowd. -- Billion Isk Mission
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.27 14:27:00 - [87] Originally by: Lord WarATron post Great post. i couldnt agree more its market things. you dont get isk by using a loophole or by concentrating on one niche you make isk by doing a bit of everything and using your brain. what price would buyer pay if... zydrine, imo, has for a long time been an easy cash plan. a frigate hauls 20k of it, its already a nice profit when you sell at 1000 isk per unit profit (0.0/empire hauls) now its pyerite. but damn hauling that through gatecamps is another story and in general carrier jumps have polished the differences between markets so time for another isk plan. mining is still greatly profitable if you produce afterwards ------ Relaxed corp recruiting
JabJabVVV Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.27 14:30:00 - [88] Edited by: JabJabVVV on 27/03/2007 14:30:09 I can't really say I've looked into the zyd situation beyond a cursory glance (though it did rather irritate me that once I started training a mining alt the zyd price crashed, but that's just life I guess :P). However zyd at 1500-2000 isk/unit would seem to be placed nicely between nocxium and megacyte, there is no longer the vast discrepancy between 'high ends' and 'low ends' that there once was - it would seem that the current situation is more logical than the situation 6 months ago and that perhaps zyd prices do not really need to recover. EDIT: As a matter of interest, is there a mining pro out there who would care to work out an average isk per hour income for mining crok or bist at current mineral prices in a well skilled covetor or hulk. I might be wrong but I have a suspicion that it will still compare fairly well with average 0.0 ratting income. ----------- When I was a n00b, I spake as a n00b, I understood as a n00b, I thought as a n00b: but when I became pr0, I put away n00bish things.
Johnny ReeRee The ReeRee Brigade	Posted - 2007.03.27 15:32:00 - [89] Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Johnny ReeRee Originally by: Lord WarATron I find it amusing that people are complaining about zyd prices bankrupting miners. What about megacyde prices? Surely these people can mine ark insted? A seriously silly suggestion. Do you know anything at all about the respective spawn areas of arknonor and, say, crokite? Yes I do. Do you know about evolution? Yes I do. Do you know anything about non sequiturs?
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.27 16:04:00 - [90] Originally by: Johnny ReeRee Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Johnny ReeRee Originally by: Lord WarATron I find it amusing that people are complaining about zyd prices bankrupting miners. What about megacyde prices? Surely these people can mine ark insted? A seriously silly suggestion. Do you know anything at all about the respective spawn areas of arknonor and, say, crokite? Yes I do. Do you know about evolution? Yes I do. Do you know anything about non sequiturs? Yes I do. It was a crappy episode of Voyeger in which Harry Kim relised that changes in the qualtim timestream effects behaviour of his collegues gives different results, with harry wanting the everything to reutrn back to what he was used to. In the time honered tradtion of tv showns, the episode ends with Harry Kim happy that everything returned back to normal upon the starship. This mirrors the mentality of those wanting CCP to change something to bring back the 4k/unit zyd. Ok Joking aside, Surely your questioning of myself using a non sequitur is also a non sequitur? If you read the rest of the thread, you should already know what the miners should do. The either put up, or move onto something more profitable. If a system has no Ark, then move to one that does, by force if need be. Or mine Bistot insted, or play a massive market takeover to force the price of Zyd up. Supply vs Demand and if supply increases you need to evolve. If you dont have the leadership skills to make changes, then go back and mine crokite and keep filling the buy orders of those that actually know how to make isk. -- Billion Isk Mission

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