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Zaq Phelps
Mentis Fidelis
ChaosTheory.
36
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Posted - 2016.05.21 01:16:43 -
[61] - Quote
TBH, it's a tactics change issue that hasn't been solved yet. The biggest adaptation is going to be killing fighters first. This means multiple heavy tacklers with heavy tanks or disposable tanks. Picket ships like a dozen or so thrashers eating the fighters up are going to be a thing. Cloaky dictors, recons waiting for fighters to be sent way out on MWD before tackling, and high ehp RR battleships with grapplers to name a few potential tactical choices.
Some things I've seen in this thread:
Battleships can't solo frigs. Yes they can. Please see the arty Mach, neut domi, Vindicator, etc.
Heavy drones track worse than fighters. This actually has a bit of merit, but heavy drones don't have to reload, be manually directed or be slow as **** waiting for the MWD to cool down.
Carriers are cheap. Yea, cheapfit they are on par with an expensive fit pirate battleship or marauder. Pirate battleships can also solo small gangs. Please see the vindicator, kronos, RHML rattlesnake etc.
Carriers should be more expensive. Never balance on expense. Exhibit A: Titan proliferation.
Ratting carriers are harder to kill. Yes, yes they are. The pilots are more alert and fighters can kill better. There's also more of them and the EHP is half. Take a Chimera tanked against say Serpentis. His EM hole means that against a bunch of purifiers he only has 563k EHP. *Several maths later* Take 20-30 purifiers and a couple of Gravimetric Widows and he's dead in about 60 seconds or so. You lose max 4 bombers assuming no jams land at all and a full rack of missiles, he loses a carrier.
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
The Tuskers Co.
429
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Posted - 2016.05.21 05:13:50 -
[62] - Quote
Everything is balanced on expense. Every single mod and ship in game is, the deimos is a flat out better thorax and thats ok cause its costs 20 times as much. A vindi is a better mega - which is ok because it costs more.
Balancing with isk is fine as long the ships dont break the meta. Also vindicator, kronos, RHML rattlesnake etc at the very least require links to be able to solo most gangs. |
Netan MalDoran
Last Garrison
227
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Posted - 2016.05.21 07:05:58 -
[63] - Quote
I dont really have a problem about the power of the new carriers, seems reasonable.
What I DO have a problem with is that Network Sensor Array, caps shouldnt be able to instalock tiny things!
"Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!
Falcon's truth
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Syrias Bizniz
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
480
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Posted - 2016.05.21 13:52:53 -
[64] - Quote
Netan MalDoran wrote:I dont really have a problem about the power of the new carriers, seems reasonable.
What I DO have a problem with is that Network Sensor Array, caps shouldnt be able to instalock tiny things!
It never struck me why it should be the way that ships that are very huge and thus have the room for all the sensor arrays should behave like they have a pringel's box as antenna for locking stuff. I very much like Carriers locking that fast, and i'd actually like to see Battleships locking fast aswell.
But then again, we'd see 300k EHP battleships gatecamping.
We'll most likely also see Carriers gatecamping, but those at least are worth hotdropping. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
846
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Posted - 2016.05.21 14:14:52 -
[65] - Quote
The disclaimer needed before I post this. I have not been in or around the carriers since the release this is all based on conversations with and looking at the kill boards for the low sec corp my son is in. Disclaimer over here we go.
Since the changes to the carriers the low sec corp my son is in has had no noticeable change in the number of carrier kills per week, this gives me cause to wonder. Has the corp my son is in been extremely lucky in that they have come up against a bunch of idiots, or is it possible that they have adapted more quickly to the new reality than the OP?
Carriers in real life are more than capable of defending themselves against anything that may come there way. And yes I know this is a game and what happens in real life does not always happen or even should happen here. However considering that fighters are quite literally frigates with no pilots is there any doubt that a group of them could easily wipe out a solo frigate?
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Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
1129
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Posted - 2016.05.23 08:05:25 -
[66] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:It never struck me why it should be the way that ships that are very huge and thus have the room for all the sensor arrays should behave like they have a pringel's box as antenna for locking stuff. I very much like Carriers locking that fast, and i'd actually like to see Battleships locking fast aswell.
I don't think it was ever about fluff or something. It was probably made so that smaller ships could GTFO or set an orbit before being instablapped. That makes more sense if we assume that this paradigm was accepted before tracking introduction.
Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
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Soldier Forrester
Vision Inc
Hole Control
18
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Posted - 2016.05.23 09:45:47 -
[67] - Quote
Since the Citadel update we have already killed and flown carriers.
The combination of Instalock + fighter mwd speed + missile salvo makes them overpowerd, but also fun to fly.
Specialized Ceptor fits are not able to hold carriers down.
Sabres can't cloak because carriers lock them to faster.
Up to 25k Alpha gets Cruisers instapopped. (My poor Orthrus  )
If they are in a bubbled ratting pocket there is pretty much no way to get them. |
Eve Serie7
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2016.05.23 11:13:47 -
[68] - Quote
Zathra Narazi wrote:So last night I was somehow locked in less than 5 seconds and instapopped from 105km away while doing 3000+km/s at a 120-¦ angle in a condor. Not cool. .
Cool.
Poll: Want the ability Carrier with Drones back, or improve Fighters.
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Anthar Thebess
1521
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Posted - 2016.05.23 11:46:59 -
[69] - Quote
For me as long as you can quite easily counter carriers on the battlefield - they are in very good position now.
Fighters can be easily countered when you have proper ships to do it.
I can confirm that a single interceptor (frigate to no tank cruiser) will have problem to tackle and hold a carrier - but i also don't consider this a bad thing.
This finally feal realistic, and put some challenge for the tacklers.
Earlier you could keep a carrier tackled in a no tank ceptor or interdictor.
When you check killboard, you will see still carriers dying at similar rate - so even if this is harder - it is not possible and people still do it every day.
I hope that this is one of the changes that will bring bigger ships to roaming gangs again, and we will see less double nano, no buffer triple point orthruses in the game.
Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists
Show your support to The Cause!
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
851
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Posted - 2016.05.23 13:40:11 -
[70] - Quote
Soldier Forrester wrote:Since the Citadel update we have already killed and flown carriers. The combination of Instalock + fighter mwd speed + missile salvo makes them overpowerd, but also fun to fly. Specialized Ceptor fits are not able to hold carriers down. Sabres can't cloak because carriers lock them to faster. Up to 25k Alpha gets Cruisers instapopped. (My poor Orthrus ) If they are in a bubbled ratting pocket there is pretty much no way to get them.
Then I suggest new tactics and different ships.
Was at my sons for dinner last night and they got two more carrier kills in less than 30 minutes which proves that is is still relatively easy to catch and kill carriers.
Now to this one specifically.
Soldier Forrester wrote:If they are in a bubbled ratting pocket there is pretty much no way to get them.
Thank you once again for proving that nul sec is one of the safest places in the game.
The again perhaps this goes back to the need to change your tactics to fit the new reality of EvE.
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Syrias Bizniz
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
484
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Posted - 2016.05.23 15:54:38 -
[71] - Quote
Soldier Forrester wrote:Since the Citadel update we have already killed and flown carriers. The combination of Instalock + fighter mwd speed + missile salvo makes them overpowerd, but also fun to fly. Specialized Ceptor fits are not able to hold carriers down. Sabres can't cloak because carriers lock them to faster. Up to 25k Alpha gets Cruisers instapopped. (My poor Orthrus ) If they are in a bubbled ratting pocket there is pretty much no way to get them.
There's this ultra strong midslot utility module, it's called a Sensor Damp. You load the scan res script, and put it on the carrier. GG.
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5122
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Posted - 2016.05.23 17:22:08 -
[72] - Quote
Netan MalDoran wrote:I dont really have a problem about the power of the new carriers, seems reasonable.
What I DO have a problem with is that Network Sensor Array, caps shouldnt be able to instalock tiny things!
I don't know where this insta-lock originated. The Network Sensor Array is night and day to be sure, but it still takes a few seconds to lock frigates and drones.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2596
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Posted - 2016.05.23 18:28:57 -
[73] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:I don't know where this insta-lock originated. The Network Sensor Array is night and day to be sure, but it still takes a few seconds to lock frigates and drones.
It comes from a drop called a Forum Hyperbole Generator. You only get one if a ship you're flying dies when you already have cargohold full of indignation. Drawbacks include, but are not limited to, being unable to so much as hear contradictory arguments let alone engage with them productively. |
The Bigpuns
Touring New Eden
Haven.
163
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Posted - 2016.05.23 18:39:36 -
[74] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:I don't know where this insta-lock originated. The Network Sensor Array is night and day to be sure, but it still takes a few seconds to lock frigates and drones. It comes from a drop called a Forum Hyperbole Generator. You only get one if a ship you're flying dies when you already have cargohold full of indignation. Drawbacks include, but are not limited to, being unable to so much as hear contradictory arguments let alone engage with them productively.
Quoted cos it's quality.
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Zathra Narazi
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
24
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Posted - 2016.05.23 19:19:54 -
[75] - Quote
Terquil wrote:True, but the OP wants a nerf because he got killed by a CARRIER. ALONE. IN A T1 FRIG. WITH BAD FITTING.
No I don't. Learn to read. |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5122
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Posted - 2016.05.23 21:18:48 -
[76] - Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsvbYKr19ng
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Anthar Thebess
1521
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Posted - 2016.05.24 06:48:58 -
[77] - Quote
Zathra Narazi wrote:Terquil wrote:True, but the OP wants a nerf because he got killed by a CARRIER. ALONE. IN A T1 FRIG. WITH BAD FITTING. No I don't. Learn to read. I currently own 36 frigates. I donated an additional 14 of them to the corp to hand out to newbies a couple of days ago. I don't give the slightest trace of a f*** about losing them. I haven't complained at all about any of my other losses. It's not about dying. I legitimately think they're overpowered and have capabilities they shouldn't have.
But why?
This is capital ship that is no longer capable of broken spider tank.
Svipul can kill a T1 frigate, but carrier cannot ?
Ship that is capable of doing stuff you stated cannot be tanked, well this was a t1 frigate so it could be tanked.
Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists
Show your support to The Cause!
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Terquil
Random Thinking Union
Random Thinking
13
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Posted - 2016.05.24 08:57:46 -
[78] - Quote
Zathra Narazi wrote:Terquil wrote:True, but the OP wants a nerf because he got killed by a CARRIER. ALONE. IN A T1 FRIG. WITH BAD FITTING. No I don't. Learn to read. I currently own 36 frigates. I donated an additional 14 of them to the corp to hand out to newbies a couple of days ago. I don't give the slightest trace of a f*** about losing them. I haven't complained at all about any of my other losses. It's not about dying. I legitimately think they're overpowered and have capabilities they shouldn't have.
I die all the time. I die to all kinds of stuff. Because I'm in the wrong ship, wrong setup, wrong fleet, whatever.
Eve is a game which developes over MONTHS and YEARS. A cry for a nerf shorty after an update is not the way to go in Eve. It's just whining. mimimimimi they are so op, nerf em.
Take your time, work out a meta against 'em and after several months when everyone says nerf carriers because noone can kill 'em THEN you have the right to call for it.
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
The Tuskers Co.
432
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Posted - 2016.05.24 09:52:13 -
[79] - Quote
Terquil wrote:Zathra Narazi wrote:Terquil wrote:True, but the OP wants a nerf because he got killed by a CARRIER. ALONE. IN A T1 FRIG. WITH BAD FITTING. No I don't. Learn to read. I currently own 36 frigates. I donated an additional 14 of them to the corp to hand out to newbies a couple of days ago. I don't give the slightest trace of a f*** about losing them. I haven't complained at all about any of my other losses. It's not about dying. I legitimately think they're overpowered and have capabilities they shouldn't have. I die all the time. I die to all kinds of stuff. Because I'm in the wrong ship, wrong setup, wrong fleet, whatever. Eve is a game which developes over MONTHS and YEARS. A cry for a nerf shorty after an update is not the way to go in Eve. It's just whining. mimimimimi they are so op, nerf em. Take your time, work out a meta against 'em and after several months when everyone says nerf carriers because noone can kill 'em THEN you have the right to call for it.
The problem is not that they cannot die, they die rather easily. Its that they basicely negate the grid for anything bar a full fledged fleet, a carrier is insurable, cheap and has the power of multiple pirate BS at once. Its just to strong at what it does. Its basicely a super blops right now.
Theres carriers everywhere right now. |
Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony
The Wraithguard.
316
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Posted - 2016.05.24 10:03:19 -
[80] - Quote
I just want to take a minute of your life to whine about 5LY.
It's easier to move the components and build it on the spot than to jump it where it needs to be.
5LY. I can pee that far.
Thank you for your time, that was all. |
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Syrias Bizniz
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
490
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Posted - 2016.05.24 16:05:38 -
[81] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Terquil wrote:Zathra Narazi wrote:Terquil wrote:True, but the OP wants a nerf because he got killed by a CARRIER. ALONE. IN A T1 FRIG. WITH BAD FITTING. No I don't. Learn to read. I currently own 36 frigates. I donated an additional 14 of them to the corp to hand out to newbies a couple of days ago. I don't give the slightest trace of a f*** about losing them. I haven't complained at all about any of my other losses. It's not about dying. I legitimately think they're overpowered and have capabilities they shouldn't have. I die all the time. I die to all kinds of stuff. Because I'm in the wrong ship, wrong setup, wrong fleet, whatever. Eve is a game which developes over MONTHS and YEARS. A cry for a nerf shorty after an update is not the way to go in Eve. It's just whining. mimimimimi they are so op, nerf em. Take your time, work out a meta against 'em and after several months when everyone says nerf carriers because noone can kill 'em THEN you have the right to call for it. The problem is not that they cannot die, they die rather easily. Its that they basicely negate the grid for anything bar a full fledged fleet, a carrier is insurable, cheap and has the power of multiple pirate BS at once. Its just to strong at what it does. Its basicely a super blops right now. Theres carriers everywhere right now.
Don't worry, faction capitals are coming. Soon you too will be able to fly carriers and have some bling with it. And an insurance that doesn't make up for the fit.
Now, what i don't get: The era of n+1 capital warfare is gone, at least on carriers. Noone can now drop Carriers and spidertank until the end of days. Sure, spidering is still possible, but not in those absurd and ludicrous amounts.
And when you take away from Carriers what made them so unbelievable OP in the first place - insane reps, EHP and almost unlimited dronebay to fight off subcaps - you'd end up with a shipclass that is absolute garbage. So, they were given something in return. Io and behold, a single carrier is now capable to defend it self! To some extent.
It's strength: Fighter squadrons apply very well on subcaps!
It's weakness: It can launch what, 12 Squads total before it's a dead body floating in space? And those Squads aren't even tanky! All they do is facefuck you when you're within 10km of them. If you can't counterplay that, then you're obviously not very good at this game.
Gone the days where a solo NOmen could kill a Carrier, man, those times won't be ******* missed.
Where were the outcries about balancing when literally a shitfit kitchensink fleet could wreck through a Carrier, which was worth multiple Pirate BS Hulls, in a matter of minutes?
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Hemmo Paskiainen
518
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Posted - 2016.05.24 18:22:28 -
[82] - Quote
Adrienne Cesaille wrote:It is an interesting scenario, Once upon a time the Battleship was king, there was no sig on ship, whacking frigates with Large Turrets was pretty simple and so frigates where noob mobiles serving no point in the game once you could get out of them.
Years later CCP decides this is a bad idea. That the sole ruling king of the battlefield the battleship was to much and that frigates and cruisers should have a place. The counter arguement was that battleships cost exponentially more isk and training time, this is derided and slammed aside by the bulk of the player base so here comes Sig and lock times. No more insta locking frigates and blapping em as if they where npc ships. Few more tweaks later and a wolf pack of frigs was a rather dangerous thing for the BS
Now here's citadel, CCP buffs up carriers and now they don't have a lot to fear from sub caps. The best counter is bring another cap to kill the cap. The arguement that carriers should be able to do this? cost and training time.. Something ridiculed years and years ago as a foolish game design mechanic...
Kind of Ironic that CCP is recreating their mistakes with battleships on capitals, its not AS bad as the battleship scenario but it's up there
Yah all the old timers know that ccp has a habbit of not learning of previous mistakes. It is kinda silly.
Serendipity Lost wrote:Making it impossible for an interceptor to hold down a carrier until help arrives is probably bad for pvp. It makes the 'gate of 100 bubbles' too strong. It's getting too easy to just bubble up a pipe or side spur of systems and carrier rat risk free in null.
Between the changes to the watch list and carriers being able to insta wonk sub capitals CCP is sending a clear message they don't want anyone hunting capital ships with anything but luck and cynos. ccp need prob more subs, so instead as with dominion, buffing anoms, their working around it like this. Same result, so expect plex raise in 4 months by 20%.
"Relativity equals time plus momentum: if it can be erased by a single click on a button, would it be worth spending your time?"
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Trace Kel'le
Royal Industrial Co.
Silent Requiem
1
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Posted - 2016.05.24 19:33:20 -
[83] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Netan MalDoran wrote:I dont really have a problem about the power of the new carriers, seems reasonable.
What I DO have a problem with is that Network Sensor Array, caps shouldnt be able to instalock tiny things! I don't know where this insta-lock originated. The Network Sensor Array is night and day to be sure, but it still takes a few seconds to lock frigates and drones.
I picked up the BPO for the networked sensor array. $$$ for the bpo and $$$ for the book for the training to build it. Ive sold 5 of them so far. |
aldhura
Bartledannians
The Ascendancy Protocol
43
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Posted - 2016.05.24 19:48:01 -
[84] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Making it impossible for an interceptor to hold down a carrier until help arrives is probably bad for pvp. It makes the 'gate of 100 bubbles' too strong. It's getting too easy to just bubble up a pipe or side spur of systems and carrier rat risk free in null.
Between the changes to the watch list and carriers being able to insta wonk sub capitals CCP is sending a clear message they don't want anyone hunting capital ships with anything but luck and cynos.
Was a t1 frig, not an interceptor. I suspect if it had been an interceptor and was in close orbit the outcome may have been different, well you would have neuts and smarties to worry about.
But there should be no good reason why a lone t1 frig should be able to hold down a larger ship indefinately
Bartledannians Corporation is recruiting
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
The Tuskers Co.
432
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Posted - 2016.05.25 07:58:26 -
[85] - Quote
aldhura wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Making it impossible for an interceptor to hold down a carrier until help arrives is probably bad for pvp. It makes the 'gate of 100 bubbles' too strong. It's getting too easy to just bubble up a pipe or side spur of systems and carrier rat risk free in null.
Between the changes to the watch list and carriers being able to insta wonk sub capitals CCP is sending a clear message they don't want anyone hunting capital ships with anything but luck and cynos. Was a t1 frig, not an interceptor. I suspect if it had been an interceptor and was in close orbit the outcome may have been different, well you would have neuts and smarties to worry about. But there should be no good reason why a lone t1 frig should be able to hold down a larger ship indefinately
Because thats the idea of eve? That big stuff isnt better by default. Take a vindicator, a ceptor can hold down that ship for quite some time, same with the nighmare or even the mach. But against one of the slowest biggest ships in eve it just dies if not links and rred?
Thats not good game design. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
602
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Posted - 2016.05.25 10:58:12 -
[86] - Quote
Done some EFT with chimera
locking time on default frig (all V):
without NSA - 27,4 s
with NSA - 2,8 s
cruiser
without - 17s
with - 1,7
kinda fast
I am the 85%
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony
The Wraithguard.
321
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Posted - 2016.05.25 12:22:12 -
[87] - Quote
Yea, they've gone slightly overboard with the Networked Sensor. Core idea is good, the number is a bit steep. |
Anthar Thebess
1521
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Posted - 2016.05.25 12:37:35 -
[88] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Done some EFT with chimera
locking time on default frig (all V):
without NSA - 27,4 s
with NSA - 2,8 s
cruiser
without - 17s
with - 1,7
kinda fast
Remember that fighters need to lock you up after the command.
If you are fast :
1 tick lock
2 nd tick give command to fighters, fighters lock
So in 3rd tick fighters will start to approach you and use build in modules.
Instant hic need 1 tick to lock you and infinite point you.
Yes this is huge change - i don't deny it.
People who love big toys come back to game, and carrier need a lot of fighter modules to be dangerous.
Modules that can be fitted only when you limit your tank.
Ratting carriers and gate camps?
Use black ops and bombers, you will lose 2-3 bombers in the process but what is wrong in losing 2-3 bombers during capital kill ?
People who hunt ratting carriers simply want to have old easy targets that you could kill in frigates without losing any of them.
Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists
Show your support to The Cause!
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
603
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Posted - 2016.05.25 12:47:20 -
[89] - Quote
Well it's a carrier. It's suppose to be big bi*** with huge firepower. The fit I'm working on already has 300k shield with at least 60% resists. How many bombers to get that? Where is the drawbacks? paper mache fighters?
I am the 85%
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Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
324
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Posted - 2016.05.25 13:43:38 -
[90] - Quote
People in frigates bitching? Means carrers work as intended.
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
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