EVE Search - Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP

Check My IP Information

All Channels

Science and Industry

Request: Take a closer look at Isotopes, CCP

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Lucio Gallente UK Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.03.01 07:50:00 - [31] Market prices in Eve are only ever indirectly influenced by CCP's action. It's one of the areas of the game where control of things like prices sits firmly in the hands of the players. If ice prices in your particular buying area are spiking, consider things like whether a new corp has moved into the area, perhaps someone is out to "get" you and is deliberately outbidding your ice buy prices, perhaps you're too dominant and the local ice miners are leaving the area. There's hundreds of reasons why this could be happening, but one thing you can be sure of, CCP can't fix it :) ************************************************ Wohoo! No more negative sec status. It's a shame it took me TWO YEARS of Carebearing to get rid of a lousy -1.2
Qual Gallente Cornexant Research	Posted - 2007.03.01 08:42:00 - [32] Originally by: Ramblin Man Then decouple the mineral markets from price controls. You should, in theory, be pushing for that to happen, no? The only thing NPC's should supply is unrefinable stuff, yes. (That is trade goods and have civilian modules changed to be unrefinable.) "The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.03.01 10:57:00 - [33] Edited by: Ramblin Man on 01/03/2007 11:05:07 Originally by: Lucio Market prices in Eve are only ever indirectly influenced by CCP's action. It's one of the areas of the game where control of things like prices sits firmly in the hands of the players. Some people don't seem to realize the process I was referring to here, so I'll clarify. Massive NPC sell orders at de facto static prices These goods are reprocessable Therefore, they spout a nearly infinite supply of minerals at Price - Reprocess_Cost Quote: If ice prices in your particular buying area are spiking, consider things like whether a new corp has moved into the area, perhaps someone is out to "get" you and is deliberately outbidding your ice buy prices, perhaps you're too dominant and the local ice miners are leaving the area. These comments are based on floating from Jita to Ours to Rens to Amarr, and all the lovely, out-of-the-way systems inbetween. I actually won't personally be affected by these changes for somewhere around one or two months, as I moved horizontally into fuel trading specifically so I'd have a hedge against rapidly shifting costs. This stated in order to dissuade from the idea that I'm only posting because of my own lost profits. ------------------------------------------ Originally by: Qual Originally by: Ramblin Man Then decouple the mineral markets from price controls. You should, in theory, be pushing for that to happen, no? The only thing NPC's should supply is unrefinable stuff, yes. (That is trade goods and have civilian modules changed to be unrefinable.) It'd certainly make an interesting experiment. I've got a feeling that it'd turn out badly when CCP decides to overhaul mining/production with a patch and doesn't quite run all the numbers. Then again, I suppose I could actually measure the current impact of price controls by just checking purchased refinables. On the to-do list for after the server pops back up.
Ashraaf Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.03.01 11:17:00 - [34] It's just market adjustment Mine Ice when ice worth it, minerals when market dictate it. Some difference with ice mining is just that you have long cycle, so you can prepare meal, go pub drink a beer on every cycle... Mining ice is a semi afk activity, or a corp one night work but not a regular activity for a player (third account maybe) With minerals, mining drones work, not with ice giving you a little (or big) boost for money. And if you really know how to be efficient, problem about popping roids, search roid, mining point isn't really a problem There's lot of player who mine ice, but atm surely they keep it for themself. There's more and more POS around the space, requesting more Isotopes Price will go up, and stabilize
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp.	Posted - 2007.03.01 17:32:00 - [35] I know it's only a matter of percentages, but I do mine more that 58 cubes of ice an hour and I don't have exhumers V yet. REGARDLESS There's theoretical math, which you are showing us, optimal m3 / hour and there's practical math. In high-sec space, unless you are in some protected high-sec bubble in the midst of low-sec, you will be very hard pressed to find pristine belts. You will also never, ever, ever find a scordite asteroid that will last for your entire mining 'op' unless you bribe Chribba for his bookmarks. Lots of people tend to ignore the bonuses to ice mining - a) long-term consistant contracts b)inexhaustable asteroids. I am well aware of NPC reprocessing as a profit-making enterprise, those who are in the know are well aware of the tritanium market, however if you go and do the research for the other goods, you would be surprised that even the best sources of other items are so expensive that the current mineral prices would practically need to triple before you could even break even on them. Even with the Trit spigot, tell me why moving averages of Trit are above, and have been aboce, the "reprocess" point of the NPC supply? Theoretically, if you account for the other, albeit minor, minerals in that item then actual "reprocess" value of trit is at the 2.36-ish mark. And for people that want to know what it is, don't ask here, just do the research yourself. _______________ Pwett CEO and Founder [QTC]QUANT & [QTC] Industries
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.03.01 20:57:00 - [36] Edited by: Ramblin Man on 01/03/2007 20:54:32 Originally by: Pwett I know it's only a matter of percentages, but I do mine more that 58 cubes of ice an hour and I don't have exhumers V yet. Can you get me cycle times on your harvesters and relevent skills? I'd be interested in seeing where the extra is coming from. Quote: REGARDLESS There's theoretical math, which you are showing us, optimal m3 / hour and there's practical math. In high-sec space, unless you are in some protected high-sec bubble in the midst of low-sec, you will be very hard pressed to find pristine belts. You will also never, ever, ever find a scordite asteroid that will last for your entire mining 'op' unless you bribe Chribba for his bookmarks. Given, but considering that the price is still way below Veldspar profits, we're talking about stripping entire belts here... not just select ores. Quote: I am well aware of NPC reprocessing as a profit-making enterprise, those who are in the know are well aware of the tritanium market, however if you go and do the research for the other goods, you would be surprised that even the best sources of other items are so expensive that the current mineral prices would practically need to triple before you could even break even on them. Even with the Trit spigot, tell me why moving averages of Trit are above, and have been aboce, the "reprocess" point of the NPC supply? Theoretically, if you account for the other, albeit minor, minerals in that item then actual "reprocess" value of trit is at the 2.36-ish mark. Yeah, I'm not very handy with databases, so I haven't done a comprehensive search for the items. As for why the price is above the 'limit', it's simple -- not everyone reprocesses and/or is willing to move the minerals for no profit. The fact of the matter is, though, that 2.6 or 2.75 or whatever the trit market has stabilized at is still an artificial ceiling. Well, unless people felt the sudden, urgent, honest need for 5,000+ coupling arrays in the past week.
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.03.02 02:15:00 - [37] The possibility of a artificial price ceiling in EVE is wrong, I would say have CCP to release BPOs of all NPC sold items. This is not a demand but just stating something to be fair or have a self adjusting system that at the end of a day during down time adjust the price of the modules sold by NPCs by: Mineral-1 amount times average price of mineral-1 on player market. So the prices of NPC goods flexuate as the price of minerals and player goods flex.
GodsWork Caldari Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2007.03.02 04:55:00 - [38] Man T2 producers are making too mutch money to begin with so this is only taking away that fat wallet from them. Now most t2 producers can get a chance to make the money the hard way like all the rest of us do. Ether by mining hour after boring hour or going out there and getting blown to bits. Get over it kids and stop crying.
III LightBringer Death by Drones	Posted - 2007.03.02 11:04:00 - [39] Ice baseprice are 176.000 PU baseprice for Heavy Water and Liquid Ozone are 1000 isk (75 000) Baseprice for isotopes 333.33 PU = 100 000 isk Stront 1000 isk So.. Untill the topes max out at around 600, there is no need to scream. However, there is rebalansing on the way here. 4 months ago 1 unit of zyd would get you 1700 trit or 720 pyerite Now 1 unit of Zyd will get you 750 trit or 200 pyerite Now, that is an exchange factor change of 2.5-3.5... With current prices, zyd VS pyer exchange are like it is intended, trit is still a bit overpriced vs zyd.. (1 zyd should give 206 pyer or 1024 trit) Morphite on the other hand, haven't been this low since it was in Ark / bist refines..
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.03.02 21:17:00 - [40] Originally by: GodsWork Man T2 producers are making too mutch money to begin with so this is only taking away that fat wallet from them. Now most t2 producers can get a chance to make the money the hard way like all the rest of us do. Ether by mining hour after boring hour or going out there and getting blown to bits. Get over it kids and stop crying. I was talking about the public market for T2 components (I bolded it for you), which should have implied that I was not talking about T2 producers. Making components 200% more expensive isn't going to particularly hurt T2 producers either. A+ for troll though.

Domalais Equilibrium LLC United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.03.03 18:15:00 - [41] So what you're saying is that the market is acting as a market. That's terrible.
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.03.03 18:48:00 - [42] Originally by: Domalais So what you're saying is that the market is acting as a market. That's terrible. sigh I'm saying that if the devs see fit to rig certain markets, then why not the isotope market?
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.03.03 22:13:00 - [43] Originally by: Ramblin Man Originally by: Domalais So what you're saying is that the market is acting as a market. That's terrible. sigh I'm saying that if the devs see fit to rig certain markets, then why not the isotope market? Show what markets they rig and how the rig it please.
Ezra Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.03 23:45:00 - [44] Originally by: Vincent Almasy Originally by: Ramblin Man Originally by: Domalais So what you're saying is that the market is acting as a market. That's terrible. sigh I'm saying that if the devs see fit to rig certain markets, then why not the isotope market? Show what markets they rig and how the rig it please. Are you dense? See all the previous comments regarding mineral prices that are capped by NPC supply. i.e. certain items have infinite NPC supply and refine for a certain amount of minerals. Infinite supply at a given price = price cap. I know for a fact that certain cargo containers capped mega prices somewhere around 13-15k back 2 years ago when mega was up in that area. Someone said something about hull repairers capping either trit or pyer. As to ice - I hope ice prices go up. I'm enjoying semi-profitable afkmining. (People say ice mining is boring - and they are right, it is. But with two T2 expanders, a Covetor can fit 2 full cycles of ice in its hold, 3 if it fits triple cargohold optimization rigs. It's not "indy-class" park-at-a-roid-for-two-hours AFKmining, but it can easily be done while watching TV.) And no, I'm not talking about jetcan macromining, I'm talking about docking every 15-20 minutes while you watch TV to drop off the load. Some guy said some stupid stuff about ice miners losing ships - Given that there's still plenty of ice in non-hub highsec, anyone who loses ships mining lowend ice must have had a lobotomy. I'm mining ice in a Covetor with no tank whatsoever. ------------ Ezra Cornell
Kruugore Minmatar Vigilant Justice	Posted - 2007.03.03 23:58:00 - [45] Edited by: Kruugore on 03/03/2007 23:56:34 There is no problem with the supply of ICE products on the market. Rather than mine ICE. I mine Scord/Kern... Make twice as much as I would mining for Amarr Ice. Sell the minerals, then buy the ice products Quote: Are you dense? See all the previous comments regarding mineral prices that are capped by NPC supply. They are actually inflation control mechanisms. Price rises in EVE are largely due to inflation... If prices rise too much there needs to be a way to get that money out of the market. That's what those items do. People buy from npc's to refine into Trit. All of the money they spend on NPC's leave the market entirely. I beleive that's the whole point of anything being NPC sold. Mr. K VIGILANT JUSTICE CEO/FOUNDER EVE Vault, A Great Community
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.03.04 02:23:00 - [46] I know there are items that are only sold by NPC but i was aking for a list of items to check for what the limits for every mineral is. As for ice, the price need to rise, i think it used to be over flooding the market or it simply became devalued form the inflation in the market. As the demand grows and uses up the current stagnet supply more supply will come in at higher values.
AvatarADV	Posted - 2007.03.04 04:06:00 - [47] Edited by: AvatarADV on 04/03/2007 04:11:26 It's not possible for ice to be -simultaneously- not worth anybody's time to mine, yet valuable enough to POS operation that lack of ice is affecting POS uptime on a large scale. Ironically, boosting ice mining would make it even more unprofitable. Unlike with minerals, where surpluses can be plowed into additional equipment easily, there's only so much you can do with a backlog of isotopes. Nobody's going to go fire off a Titan main gun 24 times a day just to create demand for ice products. ;p So if miners are suddenly capable of hauling home twice as much ice, you're going to have a large surplus of ice products chasing more or less the same number of customers. Prices will crash, miners will take up ore mining or other things completely, eventually you'll reach a new equilibrium... If you're operating a POS, and your profit from that POS is not sufficient to pay a miner to mine the ice you need to keep that POS running (whether you're paying this miner or letting the market set the price), you're out of luck. The game is not responsible for your particular business model's viability. Another observation - all the increased fighting in 0.0 isn't just causing a spike in the demand for ice. Goodness knows that all these ships that are getting munched are coming from somewhere! Ice may not be as profitable as scordite, but pyerite prices are at historic highs due to the increased demand. (Yet they're still below the "cap", so presumably we don't need to take that into effect at the moment!) If ice becomes significantly harder to come by (because of a demand spike caused by 0.0 going up in a big ball of flames, or whatever), then ice prices will increase as the wealthier POS managers bid for their share of the ice. Higher prices will induce more miners to mine ice instead of ore. Eventually a new equilibrium is reached, probably at a higher price level...
Bohoba Caldari Dragons United Pure.	Posted - 2007.03.04 07:24:00 - [48] Originally by: III LightBringer Ice baseprice are 176.000 PU baseprice for Heavy Water and Liquid Ozone are 1000 isk (75 000) Baseprice for isotopes 333.33 PU = 100 000 isk Stront 1000 isk So.. Untill the topes max out at around 600, there is no need to scream. However, there is rebalansing on the way here. 4 months ago 1 unit of zyd would get you 1700 trit or 720 pyerite Now 1 unit of Zyd will get you 750 trit or 200 pyerite Now, that is an exchange factor change of 2.5-3.5... With current prices, zyd VS pyer exchange are like it is intended, trit is still a bit overpriced vs zyd.. (1 zyd should give 206 pyer or 1024 trit) Morphite on the other hand, haven't been this low since it was in Ark / bist refines.. Ice baseprice are 176.000 PU huh wow time to go back to empire :) few weeks ago you luck to get 40,000 PU if it has jumped that much cool Get Into the Game it makes it fun for all
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.03.04 08:07:00 - [49] Edited by: Ramblin Man on 04/03/2007 08:05:35 Originally by: AvatarADV It's not possible for ice to be -simultaneously- not worth anybody's time to mine, yet valuable enough to POS operation that lack of ice is affecting POS uptime on a large scale. Yes, because ice mining competes against other types of mining. Ice use, however, does not have a substitute. Hence the dichotomy. Quote: The game is not responsible for your particular business model's viability. I already said this wasn't a post as a result of a personal issue, but rather a post regarding a systemic flaw that I perceive. Quote: If ice becomes significantly ~~harder to come by (because of a demand spike caused by 0.0 going up in a big ball of flames, or whatever)~~ more in demand, then ice prices will increase as the wealthier POS managers bid for their share of the ice. Higher prices will induce more miners to mine ice instead of ore. Eventually a new equilibrium is reached, probably at a higher price level... I'll answer the unquoted parts here. I disagree with your central premise, that a new equilibrium will be reached, because it is impossible for alliances to wage both total war and sustainable war at the same time. Therefore, the "new" market equilibrium is actually the result of transient market pressure, which will inevitably eventually dissipate. That brings up the "yo-yo" market problems that I'm taking issue with.
Big Al Ki Shoda	Posted - 2007.03.04 10:44:00 - [50] It's far too easy to macro ice mining with near zero risk in high sec. This is the reason that prices compare poorly to mining empire high sec ores - mackinaws sitting in the fields 23/7. We caused 10bn in damages to these "players" in a 1 month period a few months back, they barely blinked. There definately should be ice in high sec (since POS are allowed there now) but they really need to look at either reducing the yield or making it more difficult to sit there for 23 hours sucking on the same icicle. Just imagine the game with isotope prices based on a market supplied by real players... Would there still be the incentive to POS spam to the degree that it is done now?

Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.03.04 16:05:00 - [51] empire ice moved to 0.7 - 0.5 system only maybe something good? less macro in pirate space.
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.03.04 22:12:00 - [52] Edited by: Ramblin Man on 04/03/2007 22:09:03 You guys caught me on all the wrong math. Where were you on this one? Since this post was supposed to be about isotopes, and I was running out the door as I composed the initial post, I forgot to discount the other empire ice materials out of the numbers. Adjusted with those, 856.19 Scord Equiv (145% increase over current prices) 511.25 Veld Equiv (46% increase ")
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.03.04 22:15:00 - [53] I'd support heavily nerfing high-sec ice and creating a new, isotope-rich low-sec ice. Either balanced shy of a a super-rich 0.0 isotope ice or actually more isotope-heavy. Someone with more 0.0 logistics experience would have to tell me whether continually exporting isotopes from empire would be feasible. In any case, yields should be one of the following for isotopes, Empire Ice << Low Sec Ice < 0.0 Ice Empire Ice << Low Sec Ice = 0.0 Ice Empire Ice << Low Sec Ice > 0.0 Ice To clarify, << means 'an order of magnitude less' The main thing I'd like to see is a healthy, elastic market. For that to happen, 100x players mining 2 or 3 hours a day is much preferable to 12 or 13 macroers mining 24/7. If prices rise, then those players can mine/supply more ice -- the macroers, by definition, cannot. In order to attact more "non-afk" player-miners, you're going to have to make the proposition attractive to them. Right now it's not, which is why isotopes come from forced-mining, afk mining, or macroing (none particularly compelling if your goal is to play EVE). So you rebalance ice and make low-sec mining the new hotness for isotopes. Dark Glitter is nice and all, but when you're looking at a 46%+ discrepency with Veld mining on isotope ice, not even the 17% isotope bonus on 0.0 ice sounds too attractive.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.03.05 14:11:00 - [54] Originally by: Sarah White Originally by: Ramblin Man Exhumer 5, Mackinaw (although in truth probably being overgenerous -- a Covetor:Mackinaw comparison isn't exactly far) 44 ice units/hr (total, counting both lasers) x300 isotopes/ice block = 13,200 isotopes/hr (empire) 7.458M/hr / 3,402 isotopes = 565 isk per isotope (Scord equiv) 4.62M/hr / 3,402 isotopes = 350 isk per isotope (Veld equiv) I don't really know where you do get those figures. But basicly I get 4 Units of ICE in little bit less then 3 min with the Mackinaw. That is 80 ICE per hour. So that is almost double the profit. So I don't really see the problem you describe, but I might have missed something. Hmm. You might want to look again at your ice miners (do you actually mine ice?). Max skills mack with T2 gear nets 44 units per hour. You see ... I dont quite buy, that you get ice miner cykle as low as 180 sec, as T2 ice miner base is 500 s and T1 ice miner base is 600s. Unless you have officer ice miners ofc ;) ... PS Implants might help to get a bit over 44 / h, but even then I highly dount that you would hit 80.
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp.	Posted - 2007.03.05 17:15:00 - [55] It was a generally bad week for math for most of us, but to clarify the max possible ice mining per hour, with full gang and implants bonuses, it would be: 500 sec * 1.25 * 0.75 * 0.75 * 0.95^2 * 0.775 * 0.95 ~= 233 sec base cycle * Mackinaw * Exhumer V * Harvesting V * IHU x 2 * Full gang * Yeti II Which comes out to ~ 15.41 cycles per hour or 61 cubes rounded down. That's it. My numbers were off in my initial statement, so my apologies on that. _______________ Pwett CEO and Founder [QTC]QUANT & [QTC] Industries
Kruugore Minmatar Vigilant Justice	Posted - 2007.03.16 20:51:00 - [56] Edited by: Kruugore on 16/03/2007 20:49:02 Originally by: Pwett It was a generally bad week for math for most of us, but to clarify the max possible ice mining per hour, with full gang and implants bonuses, it would be: 500 sec * 1.25 * 0.75 * 0.75 * 0.95^2 * 0.775 * 0.95 ~= 233 sec base cycle * Mackinaw * Exhumer V * Harvesting V * IHU x 2 * Full gang * Yeti II Which comes out to ~ 15.41 cycles per hour or 61 cubes rounded down. That's it. My numbers were off in my initial statement, so my apologies on that. The maximum cycle time possible. With maxed out skills is 245.90, about 60units of ice per hour. http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Halada/completeminersguide_ver2.0.1halada.pdf If you think your formula is correct, you might want to post to make your formula heard! That's a lot of training/money/effort to barely beat scordite in a covetor!. But if you are using the maxed out figures. You have to use the maxed out mining figures ;) WITHOUT Taking drones into consideration, and assuming the hulk pilot uses a proper mining timer so near 0% waste occurs. A maxed out hulk pilot with CS Ship/Gang Bonuses will produce make 2347.48m3/minute And then you have to add in what you drones bring in.... etc, you see where I'm going. In the end it doesn't matter. Ice isn't worthwhile right now as a career. But I do mine it. You know... when I have better things to do. Like vaccum the floors and doing some dishes. Since I only have to switch the jet cans twice an hour. Empire Ore > Empire Ice. 0.0 Ore > 0.0 Ice Ice needs more uses ingame TBH. EVE Vault, A Great Community
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp.	Posted - 2007.03.16 22:45:00 - [57] Originally by: Kruugore If you think your formula is correct, you might want to post to make your formula heard! I did post it, that's how you saw it :) Halada did not take the Yeti implant into effect for his numbers. It's only a marginal difference anyway. _______________ Pwett CEO and Founder [QTC]QUANT Corp.
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.03.20 04:37:00 - [58] As a non-numerical follow-up, the grapevine says ice mining turns people into zombies. I can think of no other explanation for my ability to repeatedly and while flagged warp unscathed to and from a group of five Mackinaws and unburden them of their cans' contents. I did it for about ten minutes and then realized that there were far, far better things that I could be doing with my time.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.20 07:39:00 - [59] Originally by: Devian 666 I don't see how this will affect t2 production. The price of t2 will go up along with all other ships and modules. Current demands on the economy are causing inflation and that's it. Demand increases are not inflation. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.20 07:50:00 - [60] Originally by: Vincent Almasy Originally by: Ramblin Man Originally by: Domalais So what you're saying is that the market is acting as a market. That's terrible. sigh I'm saying that if the devs see fit to rig certain markets, then why not the isotope market? Show what markets they rig and how the rig it please. All tech 1 mineral markets have price celings and floors attached to them. Though they are dependant on sum of mineral prices contained in the specific items. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"



Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.