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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
557
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Posted - 2011.12.19 21:50:00 -
[31] - Quote
Information Agent wrote:Too many accountants playing EVE lol.
I really really dont understand where ya all are getting this 'minerals aren't free' thing from, I can only think that maybe the cost of subbing the acc that the mining is happening on is what ya mean.
I just dont see it, everything Ive ever done in game was done with the view of 'fun' or 'something to pass a bit of time' and I never once thought to myself "Omg Im losing xxx isk per hour doing this" or "sweet Im making xxx isk per hour doing this", I think ya all need to seriously take a break from EVE if all ya can think about is the game currency, or the $15, sure the isk is important but its not real.
Isk is worthless in my opinion/perspective, I cant use it in rl, I cant do anything non EVE related out of game with it, and the only thing I can think of that could make it have any real value is buying plexes which I dont, so I pay my sub to play the game, not be a slave to isk/hour efficiency.
Activities in EVE are worth nothing but fun, its a game, theres no need to attach a monetry value to every mouse click you make.
To explain what people are saying (and no, what he is doing does not upset me in the slightest).
You mine 100 million ISK worth of minerals. You build a BS that normally costs 110 million ISK. You sell that BS for 80 million ISK to ensure a quick sale.
In doing so:
You have lost 20 million ISK that you could have gotten by simply selling the minerals. You have (alternatively) lost 30 million ISK that you could have gotten for selling the BS at a normal competetive price.
Hope that made sense. It did in my head.
Revenge should not stop at the ship!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
557
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Posted - 2011.12.19 21:53:00 -
[32] - Quote
Anyone that is upset that the OP is selling his BS below cost should instead be upset that they never realized they should simply buy his ships and resell them for a profit.
Revenge should not stop at the ship!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
gfldex
74
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Posted - 2011.12.19 21:53:00 -
[33] - Quote
Diana Dour wrote:Industrialist who buy off of the market lol@u I will continue to undercut you, because it is half the fun.
And I will keep buying under priced items and stick them right back on the market. Why exactly did you wrote that post?
Merry crisis and a happy new fear! |
Information Agent
Apparently Miners
21
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Posted - 2011.12.19 21:57:00 -
[34] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: Hope that made sense. It did in my head.
Perfect sense thankyou Ranger 1. :)
The thing I don't understand, is the uproar when someone does exactly what your example listed. You would think someone just stole all their corp assets in the way they go on about it like "Omg you are losing isk you muppet, the end is nigh" hehe.
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Baneken
Hyvat Pahat ja Eric The Polaris Syndicate
26
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Posted - 2011.12.19 22:02:00 -
[35] - Quote
It pretty much boils into mining ore worth of 30mils and selling it for 20mils (as a ship) which is ofc. a very logical way of making business isn't it, especially when you could get 30mil by just selling the minerals separately ... ofc. selling ships low price in mass quantities a sure fire way to get a more decent profit margin but that's still less then you could get by selling just the minerals but I've stopped arguing against "minerals are free" crowd and use my alt to make other stuff that has better profit margins. |
Jack Traynor
One More Corp
21
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Posted - 2011.12.19 22:02:00 -
[36] - Quote
Trolling or not, this is one of those topics that has jack-booted idiots on both sides. Opportunity-Costers, Time-is-money people, and those willing to fly 20+ jumps to make 10 extra isk.
Do what works for you: only you know your own economics, and anything else is boolshite. If you're building to use yourself, anyone else's opinion on value (notice I said "value", and not "cost"?) is crap and not worth even talking about. If you're building to sell on market, do what shows up as an increased wallet, and no amount of idiocy from people who don't even know what economics are matters one whit.
Guy one tower over wants to travel 25 jumps to make an extra 1 million isk on a sale? Let him. His opinion has no effect on your wallet, and what you choose to sell your items at are of no relevance to him (unless he buys it, presumably increasing the size of your wallet). |
Nephilius
Repo.
70
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Posted - 2011.12.19 22:07:00 -
[37] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Information Agent wrote:Too many accountants playing EVE lol.
I really really dont understand where ya all are getting this 'minerals aren't free' thing from, I can only think that maybe the cost of subbing the acc that the mining is happening on is what ya mean.
I just dont see it, everything Ive ever done in game was done with the view of 'fun' or 'something to pass a bit of time' and I never once thought to myself "Omg Im losing xxx isk per hour doing this" or "sweet Im making xxx isk per hour doing this", I think ya all need to seriously take a break from EVE if all ya can think about is the game currency, or the $15, sure the isk is important but its not real.
Isk is worthless in my opinion/perspective, I cant use it in rl, I cant do anything non EVE related out of game with it, and the only thing I can think of that could make it have any real value is buying plexes which I dont, so I pay my sub to play the game, not be a slave to isk/hour efficiency.
Activities in EVE are worth nothing but fun, its a game, theres no need to attach a monetry value to every mouse click you make. To explain what people are saying (and no, what he is doing does not upset me in the slightest). You mine 100 million ISK worth of minerals. You build a BS that normally costs 110 million ISK. You sell that BS for 80 million ISK to ensure a quick sale. In doing so: You have lost 20 million ISK that you could have gotten by simply selling the minerals. You have (alternatively) lost 30 million ISK that you could have gotten for selling the BS at a normal competetive price. Hope that made sense. It did in my head.
It made as much sense as a woman believing that she saved money by buying a pair of $200 shoes for $150. To put it more simply, for some there is no value attached to what they mine, when they mine it. Even after selling the commodities or products made by the commodities, there is still no value. The only thing that matters is the 80 million made, not the 20-30 million lost. The loss isn't perceived, only the gain. The OPs perception is what matters here, not any abstract and fluxuating numbers. If you bring down a giant, you're a hero. If you kill something weak-even if it has to die-then you will endure contempt. |
Ai Shun
State War Academy Caldari State
55
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Posted - 2011.12.19 22:07:00 -
[38] - Quote
Information Agent wrote:The thing I don't understand, is the uproar when someone does exactly what your example listed. You would think someone just stole all their corp assets in the way they go on about it like "Omg you are losing isk you muppet, the end is nigh" hehe.
Pedants. From my reading it is not that people are commenting on the OP's lack of market awareness. More that they are commenting on the use of "free minerals". |
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
1
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Posted - 2011.12.19 22:10:00 -
[39] - Quote
Professor Alphane wrote:Grey Azorria wrote:Diana Dour wrote:It's bad enough that the industry community has to deal with idiots on the outside
No. Its bad enough that the industry community has to deal with idiots like you. Here's some friendly advice, just sell the ores/minerals that you mine, you'll make more money, and save some time. Leave the real industrial stuff to the clever people (read as: people who can do basic arithmetic) kthxbai Maybe she enjoys the process and isn't enslaved to the almighty Isk likeyou clever people seem to be.
I believe you are mistaking for a carebear. I am not.
By doing industry correctly you can plex your account(s) and have enough isk and (more importantly) plenty of time left over for pew pew. creating an optimal isk:hour:fun ratio.
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Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
7
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Posted - 2011.12.19 22:16:00 -
[40] - Quote
Grey Azorria wrote:Professor Alphane wrote:Grey Azorria wrote:Diana Dour wrote:It's bad enough that the industry community has to deal with idiots on the outside
No. Its bad enough that the industry community has to deal with idiots like you. Here's some friendly advice, just sell the ores/minerals that you mine, you'll make more money, and save some time. Leave the real industrial stuff to the clever people (read as: people who can do basic arithmetic) kthxbai Maybe she enjoys the process and isn't enslaved to the almighty Isk likeyou clever people seem to be. I believe you are mistaking for a carebear. I am not. By doing industry correctly you can plex your account(s) and have enough isk and (more importantly) plenty of time left over for pew pew. creating an optimal isk:hour:fun ratio.
Carebear no, just a.n.other 'people who don't play like me are dumb' kind. They come in all 'flavours'
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
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Jack Traynor
One More Corp
21
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Posted - 2011.12.19 22:19:00 -
[41] - Quote
Grey Azorria wrote:I believe you are mistaking for a carebear. I am not.
By doing industry correctly you can plex your account(s) and have enough isk and (more importantly) plenty of time left over for pew pew. creating an optimal isk:hour:fun ratio.
So basically, someone else should be playing the game YOU want them to play, and not play THEIR game? Gotcha...
kthxbye |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
557
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 22:26:00 -
[42] - Quote
Nephilius wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Information Agent wrote:Too many accountants playing EVE lol.
I really really dont understand where ya all are getting this 'minerals aren't free' thing from, I can only think that maybe the cost of subbing the acc that the mining is happening on is what ya mean.
I just dont see it, everything Ive ever done in game was done with the view of 'fun' or 'something to pass a bit of time' and I never once thought to myself "Omg Im losing xxx isk per hour doing this" or "sweet Im making xxx isk per hour doing this", I think ya all need to seriously take a break from EVE if all ya can think about is the game currency, or the $15, sure the isk is important but its not real.
Isk is worthless in my opinion/perspective, I cant use it in rl, I cant do anything non EVE related out of game with it, and the only thing I can think of that could make it have any real value is buying plexes which I dont, so I pay my sub to play the game, not be a slave to isk/hour efficiency.
Activities in EVE are worth nothing but fun, its a game, theres no need to attach a monetry value to every mouse click you make. To explain what people are saying (and no, what he is doing does not upset me in the slightest). You mine 100 million ISK worth of minerals. You build a BS that normally costs 110 million ISK. You sell that BS for 80 million ISK to ensure a quick sale. In doing so: You have lost 20 million ISK that you could have gotten by simply selling the minerals. You have (alternatively) lost 30 million ISK that you could have gotten for selling the BS at a normal competetive price. Hope that made sense. It did in my head. It made as much sense as a woman believing that she saved money by buying a pair of $200 shoes for $150. To put it more simply, for some there is no value attached to what they mine, when they mine it. Even after selling the commodities or products made by the commodities, there is still no value. The only thing that matters is the 80 million made, not the 20-30 million lost. The loss isn't perceived, only the gain. The OPs perception is what matters here, not any abstract and fluxuating numbers.
I'm not sure why you directed that first sentence to me. I was simply explaining the basic undeniable math of it... not making a judgement as to whether they should do it or not. In my opinion it's fine.
If you wish to accept 80 million ISK for 100 million ISK worth of materials that simply means that someone else will pocket the ISK you did not want. No harm, no foul. Nice doing busness with you.
This mindset is what allows the secondary industry of reselling on the market to flourish. Revenge should not stop at the ship!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 22:46:00 -
[43] - Quote
Jack Traynor wrote:Grey Azorria wrote:I believe you are mistaking for a carebear. I am not.
By doing industry correctly you can plex your account(s) and have enough isk and (more importantly) plenty of time left over for pew pew. creating an optimal isk:hour:fun ratio.
So basically, someone else should be playing the game YOU want them to play, and not play THEIR game? Gotcha... kthxbye
Not in the slightest, the reason that eve is so awesome is that there is no 'right' way to play it.
In fact I've now revised my opinion of what the OP does (admittedly because i realised that i make more isk, faster because of it ) |
Taedrin
Kushan Industrial
175
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 22:47:00 -
[44] - Quote
Oh god, not this again.
To the people who blindly mention "opportunity cost": Opportunity cost is much more complicated than comparing the amount of money made between two activities. It also considers both tangible and intangible costs. In a game like EVE Online, players do not always want to be 'optimal'. They do not necessarily want to min/max their activities in EVE. Some people want to build something merely for the sake of building something.
And EVEN IF you consider people who want to be 'optimal', you must take into account certain intangible costs, such as hauling time, risk of getting popped while hauling minerals to a trade hub (especially relevant if low/null sec exists between your minerals and the trade hub), the time wasted setting up and maintaining sell orders, and not to mention "effort".
To the people who blindly claim "Minerals I mine are free!": TINSTAAFL. Enough said. |
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
3
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Posted - 2011.12.19 22:56:00 -
[45] - Quote
Diana Dour wrote:high sec miners like building things, stupid fucks.
I lol'ed hard on this one. I love to see raw emotive cussing.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
579
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 23:01:00 -
[46] - Quote
Technically, minerals you mine ARE free. Then again, so is ISK. Yes, ISK is free, technically. In the same way minerals you mine are free.
Minerals you mine are not worthless. And neither are they worth less than minerals you buy from the market.
If you want to reduce the worth of stuff you own... well... do whatever you like. Just stop deluding yourself that you're not. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Contributor_name:Akita_T#Contributions_link_collection |
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
141
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 23:07:00 -
[47] - Quote
Akita T wrote:Technically, minerals you mine ARE free. Then again, so is ISK. Yes, ISK is free, technically. In the same way minerals you mine are free.
Minerals you mine are not worthless. And neither are they worth less than minerals you buy from the market.
If you want to reduce the worth of stuff you own... well... do whatever you like. Just stop deluding yourself that you're not.
Reality check .. What is an "value", what creates such, which is actually real and exist beyond our created measures. |
Slade Trillgon
T.R.I.A.D
77
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Posted - 2011.12.19 23:24:00 -
[48] - Quote
The only thing the first few posts of this troll thread made me wonder about was what percentage of T1 items, that are sold significantly under current max refine value, are NPC produced.
Are there estimates or hard numbers?
Akita T.
I will leaves the baited and trolls to the aged philosophical dead end that is the debate over one's value of their time.
Slade
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Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
1
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Posted - 2011.12.19 23:26:00 -
[49] - Quote
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:Akita T wrote:Technically, minerals you mine ARE free. Then again, so is ISK. Yes, ISK is free, technically. In the same way minerals you mine are free.
Minerals you mine are not worthless. And neither are they worth less than minerals you buy from the market.
If you want to reduce the worth of stuff you own... well... do whatever you like. Just stop deluding yourself that you're not. Reality check .. What is an "value", what creates such, which is actually real and exist beyond our created measures.
well, with out wanting geting into a massive philosophical debate, I believe that in this situation the 'value' of ones space-stuff (at least in part) is the amount of space-money it can be exchanged for |
Taedrin
Kushan Industrial
175
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 23:31:00 -
[50] - Quote
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:Akita T wrote:Technically, minerals you mine ARE free. Then again, so is ISK. Yes, ISK is free, technically. In the same way minerals you mine are free.
Minerals you mine are not worthless. And neither are they worth less than minerals you buy from the market.
If you want to reduce the worth of stuff you own... well... do whatever you like. Just stop deluding yourself that you're not. Reality check .. What is an "value", what creates such, which is actually real and exist beyond our created measures.
Technically, NOTHING exists beyond our created measures, and if we question our created measures then any discussion about ANYTHING is pointless. |
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Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
22
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Posted - 2011.12.19 23:35:00 -
[51] - Quote
has anyone mentioned that time is money?
Sitting there all day mining is free, but you are wasting a day that could be spend making better money without looking at rocks rotate.
some people even prefer to work an extra few hours at work and buy a GTC - each to their own.
Anyway you seem like a happy miner, best of luck. |
Michael Turate
The Bembridge Mining Company
26
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Posted - 2011.12.19 23:41:00 -
[52] - Quote
The OP is a market PVP suicide ganker - he/she gets his/her jollies by ingnoring the spreadsheets in space crowd and being a free spirit. I salute your noble cause, long may you continue to play with the sand the way to want to play with it - where is it you sell things please??? |
Velicitia
Open Designs
221
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Posted - 2011.12.19 23:52:00 -
[53] - Quote
Michael Turate wrote:where is it you sell things please???
This
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Cys Root
OldSchool Unlimited
1
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Posted - 2011.12.19 23:54:00 -
[54] - Quote
Personally I don't see why anyone would give you any grief over this, I have bought many a ship on the market to be insta reprocessed and resold to mineral buy orders right where it was at.
Hell, it was't that long ago that people were selling battleships at such foolishly low prices that less foolish people were buying Rokhs en masse, insuring them, and self destructing them for a few mil profit a pop. Add salvaging to that and you've actually got a mini profession. |
CausticS0da
Viziam Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2011.12.20 00:07:00 -
[55] - Quote
OP is actually the one doing the griefing. |
Slade Trillgon
T.R.I.A.D
77
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Posted - 2011.12.20 00:41:00 -
[56] - Quote
So true, but that is half the fun of GD, is it not?
But I will chime in against my earlier statement
In the words of the Immortal Ice T.
Ice T wrote: You are either pimping or....
You are being pimped.
So, basically, this debate is ended by the traders in the game, just as it is in the real world.
The producers, mission runners are included here as they produce loot, do not have the time, skills, or GÇÿgumptionGÇÖ to make full profit from their products, so they sell to the middle men who then maximize their profits. One could say this 'mineral situation' is a prime example of how the wheel is greased in the Capitalist philosophy.
Slade |
ACE McFACE
Acetech Systems
144
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Posted - 2011.12.20 00:44:00 -
[57] - Quote
Quote:"No I'm not dipshit, you are losing money I got these rocks for free *******" NO, bad miner, BAD Real men wear goggles and a Navy shirt! |
Vigdis Thorisdottir
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
47
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Posted - 2011.12.20 01:08:00 -
[58] - Quote
The way I see it, the OP sold a ship, and the spreadsheet jockey did not. Go OP.
And when the spreadsheet jockey replies, "My competitively-priced ship will sell too."
Then why do you care what the OP does?
When they say, "Well the OP could be making X more money with their time."
Again, why do you care?
Because you just lost a little bit of your business? Because you're mad that everyone else won't price fix with you? Seriously, at least the OP isn't .01 isking republic fleet emp every 5 minutes. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
93
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Posted - 2011.12.20 01:29:00 -
[59] - Quote
The only "opportunity cost" that matters, is that opportunity cost that is determined when the decision is made to play the game or not, the rest is mental ************.
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
92
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 01:43:00 -
[60] - Quote
So many people seem to be having trouble with the idea of opportunity cost. I thought EVE was supposed to attract the smarter MMORPG players? It's like your saying that a PvPer that doesn't mind losses doesn't really lose anything when they die; sure, they don't care, and that's fine (it's good, even), but it is still a quantifiable loss.
CausticS0da wrote:OP is actually the one doing the griefing. Yes, if there was such a thing as griefing, OP is the one doing it. And unintentionally collecting tears while they are at it. *applause* [img]http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php?r=*rnd*[/img] Desusigs can be seen on the terribad new forums using bbcode enabling script (scroll down to my post for sig rotation) |
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