U MAD about something, and BTW if you think the rocks you mine are free your wrong, time is money

Minerals you mine are not free.

Google for "opportunity cost".

You know, if by any far fetched change you, the OP are not a troll, you are better off doing level 4 missions in high sec and salvage & loot the wrecks.

It nets you more money in less time, which gives you isk to buy minerals . It gives you way more valuable minerals once you process the loot. And to top it off, you get more in less time while, being less vulnerable to being ganked by some loony tune who got bored.



TL;DR: Level 4 mission = minerals/ lowsec/ 0.0 minerals, isk, more safety, speed, LP, Standing.

You should be stupid if you mine.

U MAD about something, and BTW if you think the rocks you mine are free your wrong, time is money

I notice. oddly, that when I find Grav sites in Hisec mining the Hemorphite and Jaspet makes my "little ol' ISK counter go higher.

Everything has an opportunity cost

OT; Anyone who actively looks down on anyone else based on their occupation is a fool

It nets you more money in less time

I don't see why anyone would make a fuss over you giving them the opportunity to make a quick buck.

Same with the 'free time isnt free' thing, well it is to a lot of people, really perplexes me to think that people actually put an isk value on their recreation time, kinda sad tbh and one more step towards that tweed jacket and 'advanced accountancy for the socially inept' book. :)

RE: Free minerals - In one sence they are.

I don't see why anyone would make a fuss over you giving them the opportunity to make a quick buck.

That the activities you partake in in game have ISK values attached is a quantifiable fact, not an opinion or perspective. Ignorance of this does not change this fact.

No, in no sense are they. You are perfectly free to do with them as you wish, however, the opportunity cost exists regardless.

That the activities you partake in in game have ISK values attached is a quantifiable fact, not an opinion or perspective. Ignorance of this does not change this fact.

No, in no sense are they. You are perfectly free to do with them as you wish, however, the opportunity cost exists regardless.

You have to remember that the other guy isn't necessarily that much smarter, and may not realise how to take advantage of the situation.

anyone who considers a video game activity to be an occupation is a bigger fool

You lost me at "I got these rocks for free..."

"y u mine?"
"to build things you ******* idiot"

It's bad enough that the industry community has to deal with idiots on the outside

No. Its bad enough that the industry community has to deal with idiots like you.

Here's some friendly advice, just sell the ores/minerals that you mine, you'll make more money, and save some time.

Leave the real industrial stuff to the clever people (read as: people who can do basic arithmetic)

kthxbai

Too many accountants playing EVE lol.

I really really dont understand where ya all are getting this 'minerals aren't free' thing from, I can only think that maybe the cost of subbing the acc that the mining is happening on is what ya mean.

I just dont see it, everything Ive ever done in game was done with the view of 'fun' or 'something to pass a bit of time' and I never once thought to myself "Omg Im losing xxx isk per hour doing this" or "sweet Im making xxx isk per hour doing this", I think ya all need to seriously take a break from EVE if all ya can think about is the game currency, or the $15, sure the isk is important but its not real.

Isk is worthless in my opinion/perspective, I cant use it in rl, I cant do anything non EVE related out of game with it, and the only thing I can think of that could make it have any real value is buying plexes which I dont, so I pay my sub to play the game, not be a slave to isk/hour efficiency.

Activities in EVE are worth nothing but fun, its a game, theres no need to attach a monetry value to every mouse click you make.

Industrialist who buy off of the market lol@u I will continue to undercut you, because it is half the fun.

Hope that made sense. It did in my head.

To explain what people are saying (and no, what he is doing does not upset me in the slightest).

You mine 100 million ISK worth of minerals.
You build a BS that normally costs 110 million ISK.
You sell that BS for 80 million ISK to ensure a quick sale.

In doing so:

You have lost 20 million ISK that you could have gotten by simply selling the minerals.
You have (alternatively) lost 30 million ISK that you could have gotten for selling the BS at a normal competetive price.

Hope that made sense. It did in my head.

The thing I don't understand, is the uproar when someone does exactly what your example listed. You would think someone just stole all their corp assets in the way they go on about it like "Omg you are losing isk you muppet, the end is nigh" hehe.

Maybe she enjoys the process and isn't enslaved to the almighty Isk likeyou clever people seem to be.

I believe you are mistaking for a carebear. I am not.

By doing industry correctly you can plex your account(s) and have enough isk and (more importantly) plenty of time left over for pew pew. creating an optimal isk:hour:fun ratio.

I believe you are mistaking for a carebear. I am not.

By doing industry correctly you can plex your account(s) and have enough isk and (more importantly) plenty of time left over for pew pew. creating an optimal isk:hour:fun ratio.

It made as much sense as a woman believing that she saved money by buying a pair of $200 shoes for $150. To put it more simply, for some there is no value attached to what they mine, when they mine it. Even after selling the commodities or products made by the commodities, there is still no value. The only thing that matters is the 80 million made, not the 20-30 million lost. The loss isn't perceived, only the gain. The OPs perception is what matters here, not any abstract and fluxuating numbers.

So basically, someone else should be playing the game YOU want them to play, and not play THEIR game? Gotcha...

kthxbye

high sec miners like building things, stupid fucks.

Technically, minerals you mine ARE free.
Then again, so is ISK. Yes, ISK is free, technically. In the same way minerals you mine are free.

Minerals you mine are not worthless.
And neither are they worth less than minerals you buy from the market.

If you want to reduce the worth of stuff you own... well... do whatever you like.
Just stop deluding yourself that you're not.

Reality check ..
What is an "value", what creates such, which is actually real and exist beyond our created measures.

Reality check ..
What is an "value", what creates such, which is actually real and exist beyond our created measures.

where is it you sell things please???

[img]http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/freeminerals.jpg[/img]

Everyone below this line has been trolled:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are either pimping or....

You are being pimped.

"No I'm not dipshit, you are losing money I got these rocks for free *******"

OP is actually the one doing the griefing.

Let's try a real-world example: say you find a $20 bill on the ground (or Euros or whatever). Now I come up to you and offer to buy that $20 bill for $10. I say "It was free. You didn't pay any money for it--you just found it--so that means you're making $10 profit, right?" Would you agree to that deal?

Technically, minerals you mine ARE free.
Then again, so is ISK. Yes, ISK is free, technically. In the same way minerals you mine are free.

Minerals you mine are not worthless.
And neither are they worth less than minerals you buy from the market.

If you want to reduce the worth of stuff you own... well... do whatever you like.
Just stop deluding yourself that you're not.

Reality check ..
What is an "value", what creates such, which is actually real and exist beyond our created measures.

If you think the rocks are free your an idiot.

Ignore the "minerals I mine are free" thing for now. It doesn't matter how you acquired them--they always have a value.

Let's say you (mine/steal/buy/are given/find) minerals that could be sold on the market for 100 million. It doesn't matter how you acquired them--if you can sell them on the market for 100 million, that means they are worth 100 million.

Let's say you take those minerals and make a ship out of them. Now, if that ship can be sold on the market for 110 million, great--you just made profit. If that ship can only be sold for 90 million, though, you lost money.

Turning something worth 100 million into something worth less than 100 million is losing money.

Let's try a real-world example: say you find a $20 bill on the ground (or Euros or whatever). Now I come up to you and offer to buy that $20 bill for $10. I say "It was free. You didn't pay any money for it--you just found it--so that means you're making $10 profit, right?" Would you agree to that deal?

/quote]

Your real world example needs lots of work. You really need to compare apples to apples and not to oranges.

Alt posting to protect myself from further persecution.

It's bad enough that the industry community has to deal with idiots on the outside

"y u mine?"
"to build things you ******* idiot"

Why do people play minecraft honestly? There must be some appeal, not everyone enjoys spamming grenades in 24/7 metro (stupid fps reference).

But when I mine because I want to build a ship and I build the ship, I'm either going to fly it or sell it. It's no use in the hangar collecting dust.

So I price it accordingly.

But then whoa!

"Hey diana why the **** are you pricing it so low, you're losing money."
"No I'm not dipshit, you are losing money I got these rocks for free *******"

If I wanted to be beholden to market prices 24/7 and kill myself over spread sheets I would buy the minerals like you.

If I just wanted to mine for money and not build things I would go to 0.0 with the idiots.

I mine because I like to build and can sell for whatever I want.

0.0 players who don't realize that 0.0 miners are the ones pushing rocks for money are WRONG, high sec miners like building things, stupid fucks.

Industrialist who buy off of the market lol@u I will continue to undercut you, because it is half the fun.

Anyone that is upset that the OP is selling his BS below cost should instead be upset that they never realized they should simply buy his ships and resell them for a profit.

So um... how cheap are you selling these "free" rocks for?

I could buy some cheap, "free" rocks off you..

The indicator of virtual value of things in this game is called ISK and that value is constantly readjusted.
The interactions between players determine the ISK value of most virtual objects or services.
It's as simple as that.

I mined once, thought that the gained minerals came for free till I realized that in the process of mining I lost 3 million braincells

You should be stupid if you mine.

If you mine, you're dead inside. The dead cannot make profit. Therefore the minerals you mine are free.

If you mine, you're dead inside. The dead cannot make profit. Therefore the minerals you mine are free.

U MAD about something, and BTW if you think the rocks you mine are free your wrong, time is money

Depature from the plantation

But then whoa!

"Hey diana why the **** are you pricing it so low, you're losing money."
"No I'm not dipshit, you are losing money I got these rocks for free *******"

If I wanted to be beholden to market prices 24/7 and kill myself over spread sheets I would buy the minerals like you.

If I just wanted to mine for money and not build things I would go to 0.0 with the idiots.

I mine because I like to build and can sell for whatever I want.

"Hey diana why the **** are you pricing it so low, you're losing money."
"No I'm not dipshit, you are losing money I got these rocks for free *******"

This is what you guys aren't grasping: This is his idea of fun.

We get that. It doesn't change the opportunity cost of his actions. If he wants to mine minerals and then jettison them and blow them up because he considers that fun, that is his prerogative. But, the opportunity cost exists regardless, so those minerals still aren't free.

Third time's a charm: Opportunity cost is irrelevant because it can't be accurately applied to a recreational activity.

You can pick 3 apples in 5 minutes to sell for a total of $3. Or you can spend an hour making and cooking an apple pie that you can sell for $2 dollars. Are you stupid or something?

We get that. It doesn't change the opportunity cost of his actions.

The "opportunity cost" is decided when he decided to play the game. Game = time + money = opportunity cost. Anything you do in game has the same opportunity cost.

Yeah, I ran into the "I get the 'stuff' for free to build item X" paradigm a while back when I was examining T3 production as an alternative source of diversion and profit. If you try to explain why the "stuff" they get themselves isn't free they'll eventually transition to "But I like providing cheap products to people". Perhaps, but by indicating that the primary reason they sell products below market value of the components to build them is because of "free" resources that they get themselves, they've already indicated that their primary motive is to sell their end product at a "profit". So, I don't believe a word of any other reason they sell at such prices.

I mean, I never ask someone who is ignoring opportunity cost and am told "Oh, profit doesn't matter to me. I do it because I enjoy the process". No, the first reason they give me is always "I get the stuff for free".

It boils down to people assuming a product is profitable and not doing the necessary research to vet any such endeavor.

Here is a quick example for those of you who "get the stuff to build with for free".

You can pick 3 apples in 5 minutes to sell for a total of $3. Or you can spend an hour making and cooking an apple pie that you can sell for $2 dollars. Are you stupid or something?

The whole premise of opportunity cost is that doing X instead of Y "costs" you Z, where Z=Y-X (yes it's more complicated, but it makes the point). But if Y is something you never would have done in the first place because it's not fun for you, then there's nothing to calculate.

This says nothing about opportunity cost within the game which is what people are talking about.

The rocks are free: they cost him nothing

In Eve, opportunity cost is subjective.

At that point, informing him of how he has failed to understand the scope and source of his failure is a rather nice thing to do (even if it robs everyone else of the free minerals he's providing).

I think you need to look up what opportunity cost is. Nobody is saying there is an actual physical cost involved in extracting them (other than time, which is a given).

No, it is objective and quantifiable.

I'm well aware of what opportunity cost is. What you seem to be failing to grasp is the notion that in a game, there is no value to activities that you don't enjoy. I could make more isk running incursions, but I don't want to run incursions. So the cost of me not running incursions is zero, as I don't consider them a viable option for gameplay.

Here's a real life opportunity cost example: I know of two places I could drill for oil. Location A will yield more oil at lower costs than location B. With this information, the opportunity cost is simple numbers. However, it is illegal to drill at A, therefore it's a moot point and there is no calculation to be done.

Back to Eve: I could mine rocks and sell the minerals, or I could mine rocks, build something, and sell the items. Selling the minerals yields more isk per ore mined. Again, simple objective numbers. But if I don't get as much enjoyment out of selling the minerals because I *want* to build something, it's a moot point.

Opportunity cost in a game depends entirely on the entertainment value of the activity in question.

Don-¦t forget, that every time a ship is sold by a 'I value my mining time less than you' person, you are actually LOSING money because you didn't sell one of your ships instead.

False analogy; something which cannot be done, vs something you do not wish to do. Opportunity cost indeed does not apply to the first one (or rather, would have to factor in the 'cost' of the repucussions), whereas it does apply to the second.

No, it is objective and quantifiable.

You know, if by any far fetched change you, the OP are not a troll, you are better off doing level 4 missions in high sec and salvage & loot the wrecks.

It nets you more money in less time, which gives you isk to buy minerals . It gives you way more valuable minerals once you process the loot. And to top it off, you get more in less time while, being less vulnerable to being ganked by some loony tune who got bored.



TL;DR: Level 4 mission = minerals/ lowsec/ 0.0 minerals, isk, more safety, speed, LP, Standing.

You should be stupid if you mine.

So say an Orca costs 10 tritanium to build, and 10 tritanium sells for 10 isk, but you sell your orca for 9 isk, do you consider that a good use of time?

Maybe my example is too complicated to understand, oh well... at least I tried.

So say an Orca costs 10 tritanium to build, and 10 tritanium sells for 10 isk, but you sell your orca for 9 isk, do you consider that a good use of time?

Maybe my example is too complicated to understand, oh well... at least I tried.

No. Its bad enough that the industry community has to deal with idiots like you.

Here's some friendly advice, just sell the ores/minerals that you mine, you'll make more money, and save some time.

Leave the real industrial stuff to the clever people (read as: people who can do basic arithmetic)

kthxbai

I also noticed a few people with an example more like this:
The ore to build a battleship takes, lets say, 100,000 isk. To actually build it costs 120,000 total. Going price for the battleship is 200,000 but the OP decides to sell for 150, making a net profit of 30,000. According to some posters, the OP lost 50,000. The only problem with that statement is that it assumes that 50,000 existed. Because if the OP can undercut you, then the OP got that customer and you didn't. The customer made isk and you didn't. And any profit is better than 0.

In the following post I use 'you' in the general sense, not directed solely at the quoted poster.

Example: Orca cost 10 tritanium to build. You sell the OP 10 tritanium for 10 isk. You suddenly decide you need an Orca and buy it from the OP for 9 isk. Now the OP has 9 isk and you have 1 isk. Who wins?

GǪbut the problem is that this isn't what the OP is doing GÇö if he did, there might be some sense in it, if he can make up for the lost margin by volume of sales and the fact that his lower price will ensure he gets every sale.

What the OP is doing is selling that battleship for 80,000 ISK. By undercutting the material value of the ship he did indeed lose 20,000 ISK (because the rocks used are not actually free for him) GÇö it's the customer who gets 20k ISK worth of minerals for free, not the OP. At that point, the OP might as well not bother with the market and just self-destruct the ships for insurance instead.

Well and what if, i loot missions, reprocess all modules except arbalest heavy missile launchers and built an hyperion and give it for free to someone who just want to try it ?

I effectively lost some ISK, which are just some currency but i feel good about such deed and therefore i am the one who made "profit" on entirely different yet still imaginary level.

Well and what if, i loot missions, reprocess all modules except arbalest heavy missile launchers and built an hyperion and give it for free to someone who just want to try it ?

I effectively lost some ISK, which are just some currency but i feel good about such deed and therefore i am the one who made "profit" on entirely different yet still imaginary level.

In a sandbox game, you do what is fun. In essence your character cannot do those activities which you do not enjoy.

Stuff

Or do you just really enjoy baking?

Everyone who claims other people are wasting opportunity costs, but aren't trllionaire traders are pretty much asshats TBH. Whatever they are doing makes less money than that.

Why are people 'asshats' for pointing out facts?

Also, there is a big difference betwen calculating the oppotunity cost of everything you could conceivably do in EVE, and realising that you can sell minerals on the market.

Its a pretty simple concept actually, if you chastise someone for doing something you are doing you are an asshat.

why would i do this for someone i know IRL in a game that he hardly ever plays and make nothing off it? OMG!! I MUST BE CRAZY! I DID SOMETHING AND DID IT FOR FREE?!!! OMG, NO ISK FOR THE ISK GOD!!!!???!!!WEZALLLZGONNADIEEEZZZ!!1!

Yes, nobody is saying you can't or shouldn't do it. Less caps, more reading next time, k?

How does opportunity cost factor into running a hulk while watching season two of Heroes on Netflix?

If time is money then I'd say you are doing pretty well in that respect as a miner considering how little time you are actually putting in for your iskies.

Mr Epeen

in regards to reading, i was reading that some replies where talking about ISK maximization and opportunity cost. some people just like to build stuff

I've spent the entire thread talking about opportunity cost, but I don't care if you mine minerals and then proceed to blow them up if you want to, as long as you don't try to convince me that you didn't lose anything because they were free.

Dunno why your fellow industrialists are complaining. If I was in their situation, I'd buy your cheap ships and put them back on the market at the current value.

You can pick 3 apples in 5 minutes to sell for a total of $3. Or you can spend an hour making and cooking an apple pie that you can sell for $2 dollars. Are you stupid or something?

well, i'm not really trying to convince anyone of anything.

opportunity cost is used to determine important financial decisions in real life situations, business or personal....and this is just a game

This. +1.

... I think....

Why does everything always come down to money?

It doesn't. But, everything can be given a monetary valuation.

I hope you understand that only the buyer wins, as the seller could've made 10isk without even building an orca.

If other industrialists sell orca's for 12 isk and the OP sells them for 11, sure he makes a profit and if he thinks that that's a fun/useful way to spend his time, then by all means. But in my original example, he's loosing isk.

But, everything can be given a monetary valuation.

You sound like Ebenezer Scrooge Do I get bonus points for a holiday appropriate reference?

There are things in life, even within the small bounds of the universe of Eve that are indefinable in monetary terms.

Name 3.
Bonus points for referencing my past, present and future.

Name 3.
Bonus points for referencing my past, present and future.

In that case the opportunity cost is the price you paid for your hulk + fittings and the time it takes to make enough ISK to even up your wallet from buying that hulk, should you get ganked with that hulk you just lost 250mils and are now going 500mils in "the frozen side" of things.
Ofc, you could swap to retriever or even a mining cruiser but your ISK making just bit the bullet big time.

That being said I believe that the valuation most people give things on the market is imaginary anyway. A product is only worth what someone is willing to pay, anything else is just vapors. Therefore the cost could be seen as perceived value, or assigned value. Not necessarily intrinsic value.

Kudos for actually answering. Regarding this particular bit, I have always felt the economy is a consensus reality. I thinkt the bank scene in Mary Poppins effectively displays how it only exists as long as we all agree it exists.

Alt posting to protect myself from further persecution.
Why do people play minecraft honestly? There must be some appeal, not everyone enjoys spamming grenades in 24/7 metro (stupid fps reference).