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DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.08 16:08:00 - [31] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Originally by: Oedus Caro No. Shaping the object in that way enabled it to double the momentum gain from each photon it reflected. If it were to just absorb them all (rather like the broadside of a Minmatar battleship) it'd still gain momentum, just half as quickly (and only for as long as it can withstand the heat gain, obviously). But the moment is negligable from the photons themselves, that was the argument. Yes there would be momentum, you're quite correct, but nothing that could really be measured, I'd guess. If I'm wrong, that adds a nice twist to lasers - pushing things away ;-) You know you guys have no clue what you're talking about right? For starters I believe Solar sails use solar winds to move "various subatomic particles released in the thermonuclear process of a star"", not the light itself. __________________________
Santa Anna	Posted - 2007.03.08 16:12:00 - [32] Originally by: Rodj Blake Each race has a primary damage type. Gallente = thermal Caldari = kinetic Minmatar = explosive Amarr = EM. The answer isn't to do away with EM damage, the answer is to make EM damage useful again. As a shield tanker, let me tell you that EM is very useful. Armor tanks are very very popular in PVP, so in PVP EXP is much better than EM. If you are killing Caldari shield tankers rather than Minmatar Armor tankers, though, you have a huge advantage. Caldari ships are incredibly common (guessing half the online population at any given time is in a Caldari ship) so you should be able to find a target. That being said, I fly a few Amarr ships and I fit them with projectile weapons, which let me gank and tank with speed using the luxurious Amarr cap. For most races' ships you can choose two of [tank, gank, speed] but for many Amarr ships it seems if you use lasers you can only choose one. If lasers are going to suck cap dry so quickly, they probably need to do more damage.
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.08 16:21:00 - [33] Originally by: Almarez Um...no. Lasers definitely need cap reduction. So you're telling me that while other races get two useful bonuses, the Amarr waste one bonus so they can even use their weapons? Now, if they fixed NOS, whatever that means, then maybe the reduction doesn't have to be that drastic, but lets be serious something needs to be done. If you insist on keeping the cap usage the same then increase the tracking/optimal range/ damage modifier so that when we waste a bonus on cap usage it doesn't matter as much because the guns are sweet as is without a bonus. About damage types. Well Amarr basically have laser boats. There is one T1 ship I can think of that isn't a laser boat, that's the Arbitrator. After that you get into the Khannid ships and those just plain sucks (excusing the Curse). So while the other three races can vary how they case damage: Caldari - missle and blasters, Gallente - drones and blasters, Minmitar - missles and projectiles, Amarr have lasers, that's it. Doesn't it make sense to allow lasers to vary the damage types a little. Along with that, I don't think kinetic damage for lasers is that off the wall. What about a crystal(s) that supercharge dark matter into a kinetic damaging piece of space debris? This is a futuristic game after all. If the Amarr are laser people, and you reduce things on the lasers themselves, then essentially all other races are getting the 'racial bonus' of the Amarr. They'd automatically be able to use lasers on any other ship that isn't Amarr just as good as if it was on an Amarr ship. That's why I say the 'bonus' should be on the ship. I agree that the Amarr need either vastly increased power on the lasers to make them hard as nails (which would fit the Amarr philosophy, crush with vast amounts of firepower) or a bit of diversity, which (to fit in again with the Amarr philosophy) would be laser based - i.e. different damage types. Increase the cap on Amarr ships, give a cap use bonus, and yeah I can see tracking needing a boost too. (All they are really doing is moving a mirror around - the tracking should be immense on that). The dark matter idea is a nice one, and fairly realistic - you can create cyclones of air using lasers in squares. Extending that you'd need to create a cylindar of light with a laser, and the hollow center would move the matter. Hmm. This would work with the other suggestion of particle accelerators. But again that's an overhaul, as opposed to a balance. I'm just trying to suggest an easily implementable balance. -J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson Balanced != Nerfed
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.08 16:27:00 - [34] Originally by: DubanFP Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Originally by: Oedus Caro No. Shaping the object in that way enabled it to double the momentum gain from each photon it reflected. If it were to just absorb them all (rather like the broadside of a Minmatar battleship) it'd still gain momentum, just half as quickly (and only for as long as it can withstand the heat gain, obviously). But the moment is negligable from the photons themselves, that was the argument. Yes there would be momentum, you're quite correct, but nothing that could really be measured, I'd guess. If I'm wrong, that adds a nice twist to lasers - pushing things away ;-) You know you guys have no clue what you're talking about right? For starters I believe Solar sails use solar winds to move "various subatomic particles released in the thermonuclear process of a star"", not the light itself. Uses photons, as far as I can see: Wiki on Solar Sails -J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson Balanced != Nerfed
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.03.08 16:33:00 - [35] Easiest fix would be to have an equal EM and thermal components for all crystals and then just increase damage as you get to the lower range crystals.
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.08 16:37:00 - [36] Edited by: J''Mkarr Soban on 08/03/2007 16:34:26 Originally by: Max Hardcase Easiest fix would be to have an equal EM and thermal components for all crystals and then just increase damage as you get to the lower range crystals. Which comes back to a thought I had during this, of make the lasers much more powerful (as it's the only choice) or give them diversity. Waay off topic, but what's the ship in your sig? -J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson Balanced != Nerfed
Lyzander Caldari BIG Advanced Assault Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.08 17:07:00 - [37] The ship in Max Hardcase's sig is a Hurricane; the hull is a slightly different colour than the usual red-brown.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.08 17:30:00 - [38] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Uses photons, as far as I can see: Wiki on Solar Sails It's wikipeida... ANYBODY, can change crap on wikipedia reguardless of merit. Sorry but you really should take wikipedia with a grain of salt. __________________________
Ragnor Dayton Amarr Paxton Industries	Posted - 2007.03.08 17:32:00 - [39] Amarr doing explosive or kinetic damage from lasers would not be within how the game is set up. However there are a couple of easy ways to reduce the EM damage problem that Amarr face, which basically is the overpowered passive omni tank, rather than the damage type. 1. Remove the EM resist bonus on EANM's (and explosive resist bonus on IF, to keep things fair). Justification as a resistance hole-patch module maybe. 2. Make the current passive resist modules (for both armor and shields) use minimal energy like the damage control does, 1 per 30 secs, then only allow 1 EANM (and IF to keep things fair) to be active on a ship, the same as damage controls are now. All using existing game mechanics and therefore requiring minimal programming I would think, and would aid balance in the game. ------------------------------------------------ Just because your not paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.03.08 17:50:00 - [40] Get rid of EANM's and Invuln fields! :E
Esurnir Amarr Bears Inc FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.08 17:54:00 - [41] Originally by: Deathbarrage then to your friend Laser = concentrated light solar sail = Spaceship using a thin foil sail to catch light particles from the sun (AKA photons) and use this as propulsion to achieve sub-light speeds. Equals the solar sail is being pushed by a laser yet your friend just said otherwise even though this technique is being used by NASA weird A solar sail would never use pure light as a method of locomotion, If I use a boosted flamethrower on a chunk of iron, the iron wont move (except if I use really heavy fuel) it will melt. The "tin foil" wont catch "Light" it will catch solar wind wich is cold hard electron particle ejected by the sun (and in mass during solar eruption, wich create the phenomenon known as "Aurora borealis"). ---- Quote: Thou shall pew pew. Book of Revelation 12, 51
Oedus Caro Caldari Caldari Deep Space Ventures	Posted - 2007.03.08 18:08:00 - [42] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Originally by: Oedus Caro No. Shaping the object in that way enabled it to double the momentum gain from each photon it reflected. If it were to just absorb them all (rather like the broadside of a Minmatar battleship) it'd still gain momentum, just half as quickly (and only for as long as it can withstand the heat gain, obviously). But the moment is negligible from the photons themselves, that was the argument. Yes there would be momentum, you're quite correct, but nothing that could really be measured, I'd guess. If I'm wrong, that adds a nice twist to lasers - pushing things away ;-) Does that argument still stand? I thought we had agreed that the real life example of laser propulsion was possible through the transmission of photon momentum, not atmospheric shock-waves? If we did, then you must agree that the effect of photon momentum is measurable - it's even macroscopic. I admit that the masses involved in EVE are many many orders of magnitude greater, but then the power of lasers must be similarly increased... On the other hand, if you're still not convinced, let me take another shot at the example: suppose, as you thought, that the peculiar shape the researchers used flew not by reflecting light, but by rapidly heating the air beneath it. How might it have done that? Ordinary air absorbs laser energy slowly, so in order for the device to worked it would probably have had to absorb the energy before transferring it to the air beneath via conduction, all while maintaining a low temperature on the upper surface. But wouldn't that have destroyed the device immediately? Even if they found a way around that (some sort of sophisticated light trap, for example), how would fresh air have replaced that which was heated without ruining the thrust-generating dynamics of the shape?
Oedus Caro Caldari Caldari Deep Space Ventures	Posted - 2007.03.08 18:15:00 - [43] Originally by: DubanFP You know you guys have no clue what you're talking about right? For starters I believe Solar sails use solar winds to move "various subatomic particles released in the thermonuclear process of a star"", not the light itself. Actually, it is not so much that we have no clue, but that you have no clue. Our discussion left the solar sail example entirely; we were talking about an experiment we saw on TV in which a powerful laser was used to propel a specially-designed object high into the air. In that context the solar wind is completely irrelevant. The key is right here: Linkage. In particular, notice the 'p'.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.08 19:59:00 - [44] Edited by: Goumindong on 08/03/2007 19:57:32 Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban If the Amarr are laser people, and you reduce things on the lasers themselves, then essentially all other races are getting the 'racial bonus' of the Amarr. They'd automatically be able to use lasers on any other ship that isn't Amarr just as good as if it was on an Amarr ship. That's why I say the 'bonus' should be on the ship. So blasters and artillery arent racial weapons? Why are only Lasers racial weapons? Also, why is anyone worried that anyone is going to fit lasers on their ship that doesnt have a bonus to them. Amarr, as it stands, put autocannons and blasters on ships that DO have bonuses to them[For example, a small blaster Maller, an Autocannon Maller, a Large Neutron Blaster Abaddon/Autocannon Abaddon are all decent choices, not great, but better than their laser alternative]. So why, even with a 50% reduction in capacitor on the lasers, are we going to be expecting other races ships, that get bonuses to other weapon systems using them? Why do incorrectly sized lasers have more penalities than incorrectly sized blasters or autocannons? Originally by: welsh wizard Get rid of EANM's and Invuln fields! :E You wouldnt need to get rid of inv fields. Autocannon/projectile users can change their ammo type to phased Plasma, which ingores the typical "em hardener" you would see on shield based ships, but also the high explosive resistance. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Felix Dzerzhinsky Pirates of Destruction Union Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.08 20:23:00 - [45] Originally by: Sedai Hara Well teh most logical thing is just to turn Em/thermal around. so Lasers do primary Thermal and 2ndary EM. As Em=electromagnetic pulse its not how a laser work in our world(well nothing in eve is like in our world but atleats some logic!) Thermal = heat as every1 should know. heat is pure energy, lightis also pure energi.' Even more logical Lasers=concentrated high-intesety LIGHT, there by, heat(thermal) And we do need a weapon that deals SOME em, but to just flip it around fix it as what i see. you still do EM, good versus shields, and thermal so you can accualy dmg armor. I dont see so many flawns in this. But first just fix the cap usage, will make all amarians happy. This is the right direction: Instead of EM/Therm, lasers should do Therm/EM. Now Hybrid wepons do 2 damage types - so I don't see an issue with the Amarr doing 2 as well, but the EM/Therm balance needs to be reworked. The big issue is cap and powergrid. Beams take too much PG, and too much cap. While increacing PG is a solution for fitting, increacing cap is not - at least untill NoS gets balanced a bit.
Klavayne Pack Of Shadows	Posted - 2007.03.08 20:36:00 - [46] Originally by: DubanFP Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Uses photons, as far as I can see: Wiki on Solar Sails It's wikipeida... ANYBODY, can change crap on wikipedia reguardless of merit. Sorry but you really should take wikipedia with a grain of salt. Wasn't gonna post on this topic until this post. One question, why should we take wikipedia (a frequently moderated, open source encyclopedia written by people with expertise in that area with referenced material) with a pinch of salt while at the same time listen to what you say? Yes, anybody can change things on wiki, but it has to be of real merit to actually stay there due to the strict moderation. Back OT, you can never justify things with scientific principle on EVE. It just doesn't work, and opens up a can of worms too big to even think about. You have to think of this in terms of balancing gameplay first, then making the story fit afterwards. Like somebody said much earlier.
Novina Agrari	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:08:00 - [47] Give lasers more thermal damage? So, make it so two races (Amarr and Gallente) primarily dish out thermal with their guns? And you don't think this is going to result in people shifting their tank focus to heavy thermal? Think outside the box, like me! Here's an unorthodox suggestion everyone will hate, but which is - and I say this with all confidence - better than every other idea that has so far been offered. 1) Ditch weapon destabilizers as the amarr Ewar specialty. Reasoning: Take a look at the other options. ECM works beautifully in just about every situation (Even against missile boats with FOF missiles - forcing pilots to use that ammo cuts their dps down drastically.) RSDs, similarly (It's pointless if your ship is decked out for extreme close range, but what are the odds it is if you're using RSDs?) Target painters? They sort of suck, but in principle increasing the sig of a ship is good against every ship you go up against, possibly excluding battleships. Weapon disruptors? It's useful against ships that use turrets. Which is great, unless you go up against a caldari (Missiles are entirely unaffected by this), gallente (Drones are entirely unaffected by this), and a good chunk of minmatar (Odd ships with mixes of drones and missiles), or snipers (Too far away for the WD to work.) Ditch these as racial ewar, they're too narrow in use. Instead, introduce a high-cap, ammo-using, hi-slot ewar that reduces the target's resistance over 20 seconds. Split it across 8 ammo types, 1 for each damage type paired with either shield or armor. So an ammo for EM-armor lowering, an ammo for EM-shield lowering, etc. Now the amarr pilot goes out knowing that if he comes up against an enemy with 95% EM resist, he has a way to reduce it to nearly 50% at the cost of fitting and cap. 2) Keep everything else the same. That's right, keep our obnoxious PG requirements, our as-of-yet crappy damage, our tracking issues, and our cap use just the way they are. Because step 1 solves all of the problems amarr really have in one fell swoop. While every other race has versatility in how and what kind of damage they do, amarr get versatility in being able to reduce what kind of damage their target can really handle. It's even a great IC solution - this is exactly what the tradition-based, stubborn amarrs would do. 3) Praise me and send me ISK in game for coming up with a solution that is, frankly, awesome. Also amazing. In fact, when this goes into the game, name the best named version of these things 'Novina-class' equipment, in my honor. You're welcome.
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:23:00 - [48] Originally by: Lyzander The ship in Max Hardcase's sig is a Hurricane; the hull is a slightly different colour than the usual red-brown. Yup, photoshop 4tw ! Deep blue is also pretty good in the looks department. Could see a hard yellow look as well.
Oedus Caro Caldari Caldari Deep Space Ventures	Posted - 2007.03.08 22:21:00 - [49] Edited by: Oedus Caro on 08/03/2007 22:19:06 Originally by: Max Hardcase Edited by: Max Hardcase on 08/03/2007 21:43:21 Originally by: Lyzander The ship in Max Hardcase's sig is a Hurricane; the hull is a slightly different colour than the usual red-brown. Yup, photoshop 4tw ! Deep blue is also pretty good in the looks department. Could see a hard yellow look as well. Now if you want to know why a Gallente char,who has a hurricane in his sig, replies in Laser Thread ...... It's just not Minmatar if it ain't in that peculiar shade of brown... In fact, I dare say that what you have in your sig looks... Caldari.
Erim Solfara Amarr Tarlos INC	Posted - 2007.03.08 22:54:00 - [50] Originally by: DarkElf Ok firstly, you think waaaaaay too much about the scientific explanations behind doing stuff Secondly, has been talked about for a coupla years now. i'd say if it was gonna happen it would have by now. I reckon there's about as much chance of amarr getting explosive crystals as there is of having drones actually do what you tell them. nada DE No, you don't think about it enough. But then we wouldn't expect you to understand with a character name like that would we? New ship class
Oedus Caro Caldari Caldari Deep Space Ventures	Posted - 2007.03.08 23:19:00 - [51] Originally by: Erim Solfara Originally by: DarkElf Ok firstly, you think waaaaaay too much about the scientific explanations behind doing stuff Secondly, has been talked about for a coupla years now. i'd say if it was gonna happen it would have by now. I reckon there's about as much chance of amarr getting explosive crystals as there is of having drones actually do what you tell them. nada DE No, you don't think about it enough. But then we wouldn't expect you to understand with a character name like that would we? Owned.
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.08 23:38:00 - [52] Originally by: Oedus Caro Originally by: Erim Solfara Originally by: DarkElf Ok firstly, you think waaaaaay too much about the scientific explanations behind doing stuff Secondly, has been talked about for a coupla years now. i'd say if it was gonna happen it would have by now. I reckon there's about as much chance of amarr getting explosive crystals as there is of having drones actually do what you tell them. nada DE No, you don't think about it enough. But then we wouldn't expect you to understand with a character name like that would we? Owned. Hahahaha! Nice. -J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson Balanced != Nerfed
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.03.08 23:49:00 - [53] yay EMP charge for amarr without the crappy DPS that minmatar have. Woot so balanced!111!11!1 Would solve abbadon's ca****ues though, every ship would be melted in 5 volleys. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Shayla Sh'inlux The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.03.09 00:43:00 - [54] Screwing with the Amarr ship bonuses will only cause all kinds of mess. That bonus is there for a reason and lasers are supposed to be balanced taking that bonus into account. For the same reasons pretty much every Gallentean ships gets a hybrid damage bonus (only ships that doest get it is the Myrmidon) because, frankly, blasters blow without the damage bonus and rails without do subpar damage as well (ie, Caldari turret boats other than the Rokh do low damage, but compensate with extreme ranges). You might also have noticed that projectiles completely blow without bonuses as well. See the pattern? We're encouraged to use the proper guns racial on each ship. Lasers have a high normalized damage because they cost so much cap. This is then compensated with the ship bonus not being damage, but geared towards making lasers usable. Now the problem Amarr is facing is multispec tanking. Thanks to Damage Controls, and Invuls/EANM EM damage is pretty ****ty damage to do. If Tuxford would do something smart (would be a firsttimer tho) he'd nerf down Invul's II to be equal to EANM and then remove Explosive resists from the Invul and EM resist from the EANM. Then nerf damage controls to only affect hull and we're getting somewhere. This silly tankability of ships is getting kinda out of control and Amarr happen to be the victim. Of course knowing Tuxford he will probably screw around with a billion different things, semi-fixing lasers while breaking 15 other things in the process. Oh and for the record - giving lasers an explosive crystal would be utterly and completely overpowered. And not only because lasers can switch crystals instantly. Discussing moderation is a no-no- Tirg
Tangentoar Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.03.09 01:57:00 - [55] I'm an energy turret user primarily and do think they need a buff rather than other mods being changed like the EANM being changed as some have suggested. Quite simply I think that they should do more thermal damage as in my experiance of ppl's setups they are less likely to have tanked for it, and it does allround better damage on shields and armour than any other type if they have not tanked for it specificly. In fact some PPL I know take just thermal javelin torps for their pvp Raven just for this particular reason and they are pretty succesfull.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.09 02:10:00 - [56] Originally by: madaluap yay EMP charge for amarr without the crappy DPS that minmatar have. Woot so balanced!111!11!1 Would solve abbadon's ca****ues though, every ship would be melted in 5 volleys. Minmatar do not have crappy DPS. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.09 02:23:00 - [57] Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Snip No it wont. That bonus was there for a reason, and that reason was that ages ago, when damage mods were not stacked, ships had much less hit points, and pulse lasers had even longer range that range was the king of all. Blasters do not blow without the damage bonus, and nor do rails. Rails have the most important attribute in a ranged battle[range] and blasters have the most important attribute in a short battle[damage]. Amarran boats that do not get damage bonuses are near unisverally better with either autocannons or blasters. You might also notice that projectiles do not completly blow without a bonus. Minmatar ships have two bonuses because minmatar ships have less turrets than their competiting ships. The Rupture has only 4 turrets compared to the Thorax's 5. A 25% damage bonus and it has been normalized to 5. So the bonus that the Rupture gets is an extra high slot and lower fitting requirements. See the Pattern? Each and every non tech 2 minmatar ship that gets a double damage bonus has less turrets than its competitors Lasers dont have a high normalized damage. They have 11% more than autocannons and 16% less than blasters. This is right smack dab in the middle. After bonuses are applied, they are far far in the rear of the pack. If you knew anything about meta fitting you would know that Invuln Fields help amarr. They do this because they make omni tanking more productive, which lowers the chances of a shield tanker fitting an active EM hardener. Once a shield tanker fits an active EM hardener lasers are roughly on the same level for shields as everyone else. Omni shield tanking helps amarr. Killing invulns would help Minmatar. However, minmatar since they can change damage types, dont really need the help. EANMS are another matter, since they have both 0 cap use and much easier fitting requirements. Which means in the meta there is no chance of a specific hardener setting which would advantage lasers.[save 40 cpu and 3 cap/second for the same resists + 50% em resistance extra? Wooo!] It is stupid thinking like this, where past game conditions are confused with current game conditions that keep tux and the devs from giving amarrans a freaking second bonus to their ships. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Oedus Caro Caldari Caldari Deep Space Ventures	Posted - 2007.03.09 02:30:00 - [58] Originally by: madaluap yay EMP charge for amarr without the crappy DPS that minmatar have. Woot so balanced!111!11!1 Would solve abbadon's ca***ues though, every ship would be melted in 5 volleys. What you mean is, one* ship would be melted in 5 volleys. Then the Abaddon waits...
6Bagheera9 Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 03:39:00 - [59] Has anyone noticed that blasters actually deal more kinetic damage than thermal despite being one of the weapons of choice for the "thermal" race. Just switch lasers to Thermal/EM and tweak the ratios as needed. Its a simple and logical solution and its kinda sad that it hasn't been implemented already.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.09 04:20:00 - [60] Edited by: Goumindong on 09/03/2007 04:17:42 Originally by: Maeltstome Dig into the new database the Dev's released... So far i've found a new type of tech II ammo for minmatar - so im fuessing that means if you hit the right name then you'll find the same for other races, meaning exp for amarr. Yea, the ammos are fairly old as far as i know, and never implemented. They probably wont ever be Blaze M is the one you are looking for. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"

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