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Amarr Lasers (New Damage type)

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J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.08 14:27:00 - [1] Edited by: J''Mkarr Soban on 08/03/2007 14:26:36 Edited by: J''Mkarr Soban on 08/03/2007 14:25:51 Ok, hear me out. I've heard about this before, and laughed. How can a beam of light do any damage type that has a physical element to it? That's just nonsense. Alas, I hate my own brain sometimes. It is possible to add another damage type, namely explosive. Kinetic is still nonsense, but explosive could work. Here's my reasoning. What if the explosive element represented the intense expanding due to heat of the armour? It would expand and explode and do some damage. What about the shields I hear you cry? That means that the explosive damage wouldn't apply to shields! Well, you assume that the crystals are so focussed that they essentially drill through the outer shields to get this effect of damage. I don't mean that the laser ignores shields! The shields would still take damage, and the armour wouldn't, until it was destined to do so through lack of shields. If most of the energy of the laser is taken up damaging the shields and 'drilling' through them, then there wouldn't be enough left to cut a hole in the armour, but it might be enough to heat it and cause expansion. It would only be the outer layers of the armour though, and wouldn't actually damage the integrity of the armour itself (to keep in with the way damage is worked out to armour, the shields have to go first). This way of thinking about it maintains all the current ways that damage is dealt (shields first, then armour) including resistances. It also makes sense from a storyline point of view - the Minmatar develop EM resistances to shields, so the Amarr think up a way to get through that extra resistance. Anyway, just throwing this out as an idea. Maybe T2 crystals? Probably have to be short range to get the kind of focus needed. -J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson Balanced != Nerfed
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2007.03.08 14:32:00 - [2] there's reasoning for each damage type, there's also enough reasoning that kinetic and thermic is the same since thermal energy is just moving particles... won't happen
Sedai Hara Caldari The Forsakened Companions	Posted - 2007.03.08 14:42:00 - [3] Well teh most logical thing is just to turn Em/thermal around. so Lasers do primary Thermal and 2ndary EM. As Em=electromagnetic pulse its not how a laser work in our world(well nothing in eve is like in our world but atleats some logic!) Thermal = heat as every1 should know. heat is pure energy, lightis also pure energi.' Even more logical Lasers=concentrated high-intesety LIGHT, there by, heat(thermal) And we do need a weapon that deals SOME em, but to just flip it around fix it as what i see. you still do EM, good versus shields, and thermal so you can accualy dmg armor. I dont see so many flawns in this. But first just fix the cap usage, will make all amarians happy. Originally by: Tuxford Speed is fun and all but this is getting silly, yes we are addressing it, yes I have a blog coming about it. 2007-02-05 end of the nano-era
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.08 14:55:00 - [4] Originally by: Deathbarrage there's reasoning for each damage type, there's also enough reasoning that kinetic and thermic is the same since thermal energy is just moving particles... won't happen A discussion on this with my friend who studies Physics. (I know it's only pseudo science in Eve, but still...) Friend: you can't equate the macroscopic kinetic energy of an object with the kinetic energy of the particles that make it up Friend: the internal energy of a thermodynamic system is comprised of kinetic energy due to the rotation, vibration and translation of its particles; and potential energy due to the atomic forces in those particles themselves Friend: those are not equivalent to the kinetic energy of the complete system due to its motion through space Friend: put it this way, you can't cause a macroscopic object to move by hitting it with a laser beam Friend: therefore it has no kinetic effect Friend: you can just about manipulate microscopic glass beads using carefully controlled multiple femtosecond laser pulses, which is what a lot of people spend a lot of time doing in St Andrews Me: Can I quote you? Friend: he's quite right in saying that it imparts kinetic energy to the ship, but only by causing the molecules to vibrate Friend: and guess what that is Friend: heat! Friend: go ahead -J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson Balanced != Nerfed
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:00:00 - [5] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Originally by: Deathbarrage there's reasoning for each damage type, there's also enough reasoning that kinetic and thermic is the same since thermal energy is just moving particles... won't happen A discussion on this with my friend who studies Physics. (I know it's only pseudo science in Eve, but still...) Friend: you can't equate the macroscopic kinetic energy of an object with the kinetic energy of the particles that make it up Friend: the internal energy of a thermodynamic system is comprised of kinetic energy due to the rotation, vibration and translation of its particles; and potential energy due to the atomic forces in those particles themselves Friend: those are not equivalent to the kinetic energy of the complete system due to its motion through space Friend: put it this way, you can't cause a macroscopic object to move by hitting it with a laser beam Friend: therefore it has no kinetic effect Friend: you can just about manipulate microscopic glass beads using carefully controlled multiple femtosecond laser pulses, which is what a lot of people spend a lot of time doing in St Andrews Me: Can I quote you? Friend: he's quite right in saying that it imparts kinetic energy to the ship, but only by causing the molecules to vibrate Friend: and guess what that is Friend: heat! Friend: go ahead then to your friend Laser = concentrated light solar sail = Spaceship using a thin foil sail to catch light particles from the sun (AKA photons) and use this as propulsion to achieve sub-light speeds. Equals the solar sail is being pushed by a laser yet your friend just said otherwise even though this technique is being used by NASA weird
inSpirAcy The Solopwnmobiles	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:04:00 - [6] CCP put this to rest years ago! Quote: This frequency modulation crystal uses a modified microwave crystal coupled with a relatively low energy electron beam generator to alter the electric charge of molecules causing them to violently break apart. From the description of the never unleashed Blaze crystal.
Barry Cuda F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:05:00 - [7] Amarr needs lasers that are always on so they can wave them around the battlefield and slice ships in half effortlessly. I would then be happy with lasers.
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:09:00 - [8] Originally by: Sedai Hara Well teh most logical thing is just to turn Em/thermal around. so Lasers do primary Thermal and 2ndary EM. As Em=electromagnetic pulse its not how a laser work in our world(well nothing in eve is like in our world but atleats some logic!) Thermal = heat as every1 should know. heat is pure energy, lightis also pure energi.' Even more logical Lasers=concentrated high-intesety LIGHT, there by, heat(thermal) And we do need a weapon that deals SOME em, but to just flip it around fix it as what i see. you still do EM, good versus shields, and thermal so you can accualy dmg armor. I dont see so many flawns in this. But first just fix the cap usage, will make all amarians happy. Yeah, there is only minor EM effects in lasers: Friend: yeah, a laser beam is a coherent beam of orthogonal E and B fields, it has minimal electromagnetic effect on its target Friend: it's not going to cause an electric charge on it, or induce a magnetic field, because they cancel each other out in the beam Friend: the most it's going to do is bombard it with photons, and cause it to heat up Friend: and there'll be a certain amount of charge deficit due to the photoelectric effect, but probably negligible (I'm learning alot about laser mechanics today ;-) ) As for the cap effects - I don't think the guns should change - it should take alot of power to produce the beam. Instead give the ships better cap and cap bonuses to weapons, to reflect the Amarr 'mastery' of lasers. -J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson Balanced != Nerfed
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:12:00 - [9] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban How can a beam of light You're trying to do it the wrong way: this a game, balance comes first, the background stories are created to support those elements. So please, if you feel Amarr doing Explosive damage would be good for the game and balance, argue for straight for that. And if such change is implemented, CCP/we can make up plausible story for it. -Lasse
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:13:00 - [10] Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Originally by: Deathbarrage there's reasoning for each damage type, there's also enough reasoning that kinetic and thermic is the same since thermal energy is just moving particles... won't happen A discussion on this with my friend who studies Physics. (I know it's only pseudo science in Eve, but still...) Friend: you can't equate the macroscopic kinetic energy of an object with the kinetic energy of the particles that make it up Friend: the internal energy of a thermodynamic system is comprised of kinetic energy due to the rotation, vibration and translation of its particles; and potential energy due to the atomic forces in those particles themselves Friend: those are not equivalent to the kinetic energy of the complete system due to its motion through space Friend: put it this way, you can't cause a macroscopic object to move by hitting it with a laser beam Friend: therefore it has no kinetic effect Friend: you can just about manipulate microscopic glass beads using carefully controlled multiple femtosecond laser pulses, which is what a lot of people spend a lot of time doing in St Andrews Me: Can I quote you? Friend: he's quite right in saying that it imparts kinetic energy to the ship, but only by causing the molecules to vibrate Friend: and guess what that is Friend: heat! Friend: go ahead then to your friend Laser = concentrated light solar sail = Spaceship using a thin foil sail to catch light particles from the sun (AKA photons) and use this as propulsion to achieve sub-light speeds. Equals the solar sail is being pushed by a laser yet your friend just said otherwise even though this technique is being used by NASA weird Hahahahaha! Have you seen the size of the sails? And the ultimate speed produced? Even I can figure that out, and all I've got is high school Physics. You said yourself that a laser is concentrated light - a sun isn't! His response: Friend: ask him what he thinks happens if you point a suitably powerful laser at a solar sail Friend: it burns through it. Friend: and this is a 500g foil sheet we're talking about Friend: not a 5 megaton ship -J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson Balanced != Nerfed
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:15:00 - [11] Edited by: J''Mkarr Soban on 08/03/2007 15:13:13 Originally by: Heikki Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban How can a beam of light You're trying to do it the wrong way: this a game, balance comes first, the background stories are created to support those elements. So please, if you feel Amarr doing Explosive damage would be good for the game and balance, argue for straight for that. And if such change is implemented, CCP/we can make up plausible story for it. -Lasse I do. Which is why I am. There are many other threads about the Amarr as a whole, I'm focussing on this in particular and saying it is possible. Plus, working within the storyline makes it easier for CCP to introduce this, instead of having to write a whole background to it? Just like the idea of using smartbombs to defend against nos attacks - logic, physics, and something already in the game. -J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson Balanced != Nerfed
Oedus Caro Caldari Caldari Deep Space Ventures	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:16:00 - [12] Originally by: Deathbarrage there's reasoning for each damage type, there's also enough reasoning that kinetic and thermic is the same since thermal energy is just moving particles... won't happen Well while we're at it why don't we just boil it on down to the fact that all damage is energy damage. Kinetic energy, thermal (viz. atomic kinetic/oscillation) energy, a mix of the two in explosions... etc. Damage classes are not meant to suggest that each type is a unique flavor of destruction. They are meant to give a broader idea of how destruction is inflicted, and such considerations are perfectly legit. For example, you could fire a flamethrower at a concrete bunker all day and - surprise - nothing terribly significant would happen; but if you sent a shaped projectile at the thing at sufficient speed you could definitely make a hole. Having said all that, the EM/Thermal distinction might possibly be redundant - if my understanding is correct, the ability of a light beam to destroy an object rests on its ability to pump thermal energy into said object. For that reason, it's also a bit silly to have energy weapons modulated into gamma frequencies, since most gamma rays are going to pass straight through whatever they're pointed at. I guess that's getting off-topic, though.
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:20:00 - [13] Originally by: Barry Cuda Amarr needs lasers that are always on so they can wave them around the battlefield and slice ships in half effortlessly. I would then be happy with lasers. Hmm...maybe? Lasers have a vastly greater distance in space due to less dispersion, so they should have a massive range. I don't know the physics of it, obviously, but this is why in another thread I argued that there should be an increase in falloff for lasers. As for slicing things in half - if I have a nice shiny mirrored ship (Amarr) it would bounce most of it, no? :-D I'm still debating on this myself tbh. More looking at balancing that overhauling though. -J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson Balanced != Nerfed
DarkElf Caldari Veto.	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:20:00 - [14] Ok firstly, you think waaaaaay too much about the scientific explanations behind doing stuff Secondly, has been talked about for a coupla years now. i'd say if it was gonna happen it would have by now. I reckon there's about as much chance of amarr getting explosive crystals as there is of having drones actually do what you tell them. nada DE
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:22:00 - [15] Each race has a primary damage type. Gallente = thermal Caldari = kinetic Minmatar = explosive Amarr = EM. The answer isn't to do away with EM damage, the answer is to make EM damage useful again. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:23:00 - [16] Originally by: Oedus Caro Originally by: Deathbarrage there's reasoning for each damage type, there's also enough reasoning that kinetic and thermic is the same since thermal energy is just moving particles... won't happen Well while we're at it why don't we just boil it on down to the fact that all damage is energy damage. Kinetic energy, thermal (viz. atomic kinetic/oscillation) energy, a mix of the two in explosions... etc. Damage classes are not meant to suggest that each type is a unique flavor of destruction. They are meant to give a broader idea of how destruction is inflicted, and such considerations are perfectly legit. For example, you could fire a flamethrower at a concrete bunker all day and - surprise - nothing terribly significant would happen; but if you sent a shaped projectile at the thing at sufficient speed you could definitely make a hole. Having said all that, the EM/Thermal distinction might possibly be redundant - if my understanding is correct, the ability of a light beam to destroy an object rests on its ability to pump thermal energy into said object. For that reason, it's also a bit silly to have energy weapons modulated into gamma frequencies, since most gamma rays are going to pass straight through whatever they're pointed at. I guess that's getting off-topic, though. Friend: that last guy has sense I agree. UV to IR I can understand, multifreq less so, x-ray and gamma definitely not. I'd rather have a spectrum of colours for the crystals, though I guess saying 'I've got a Megasuperduper Blue Crystal!' sounds a bit boring :-D -J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson Balanced != Nerfed
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:23:00 - [17] Edited by: DubanFP on 08/03/2007 15:20:15 Originally by: Sedai Hara As Em=electromagnetic pulse its not how a laser work in our world(well nothing in eve is like in our world but atleats some logic!). Dear god your undestanding of physics suck. EM is NOT EMP. ElectroMagnetic waves = light. There for by definition Lasers are EM, heat would just be a minor side effect "the EM would excite atoms in the target causing them to vibrate which is heat". __________________________
Oedus Caro Caldari Caldari Deep Space Ventures	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:23:00 - [18] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Have you seen the size of the sails? And the ultimate speed produced? Even I can figure that out, and all I've got is high school Physics. You said yourself that a laser is concentrated light - a sun isn't! His response: Friend: ask him what he thinks happens if you point a suitably powerful laser at a solar sail Friend: it burns through it. Friend: and this is a 500g foil sheet we're talking about Friend: not a 5 megaton ship Laser on a sail, yes, but that's not to say a laser beam based, for example, on the earth couldn't be used to propel a spacecraft. I've seen something similar done on television - a laser was fired at a craftily shaped, highly reflective object, and it flew into the sky in quite a hurry. Mileage on the thing was admittedly very poor, but who knows where materials science might be in the EVE universe.
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:25:00 - [19] Originally by: DarkElf Ok firstly, you think waaaaaay too much about the scientific explanations behind doing stuff Secondly, has been talked about for a coupla years now. i'd say if it was gonna happen it would have by now. I reckon there's about as much chance of amarr getting explosive crystals as there is of having drones actually do what you tell them. nada DE Yeah. I'm at work, fairly bored. That and I like negotiating/compromising/conflict resolution between parties. The way I see it though is if a relatively concrete reasoning behind something can be provided, we do the hard thinking work for CCP, which means more chance it comes about. Maybe. Maybe I'm just hopeful :-) -J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson Balanced != Nerfed
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:26:00 - [20] Originally by: Rodj Blake Each race has a primary damage type. Gallente = thermal Caldari = kinetic Minmatar = explosive Amarr = EM. The answer isn't to do away with EM damage, the answer is to make EM damage useful again. Perhaps. Just thinking around. The whole 'everyone has access to at least three damage types and we don't' argument. -J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson Balanced != Nerfed
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:29:00 - [21] Originally by: Oedus Caro Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Have you seen the size of the sails? And the ultimate speed produced? Even I can figure that out, and all I've got is high school Physics. You said yourself that a laser is concentrated light - a sun isn't! His response: Friend: ask him what he thinks happens if you point a suitably powerful laser at a solar sail Friend: it burns through it. Friend: and this is a 500g foil sheet we're talking about Friend: not a 5 megaton ship Laser on a sail, yes, but that's not to say a laser beam based, for example, on the earth couldn't be used to propel a spacecraft. I've seen something similar done on television - a laser was fired at a craftily shaped, highly reflective object, and it flew into the sky in quite a hurry. Mileage on the thing was admittedly very poor, but who knows where materials science might be in the EVE universe. Oooh I saw that documentary! Very interesting. Remember though, that that 'craft' had been shaped and shined specifically for that reason, to let it utilise these (minor) kinetic effects of a laser. I think it was more based around heating the air under the cone to make it expand, though. Fact is a laser on an object not specifically designed to utilise the force would have only microscopic kinetic effect. -J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson Balanced != Nerfed
Kar Anshral	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:35:00 - [22] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Originally by: Rodj Blake Each race has a primary damage type. Gallente = thermal Caldari = kinetic Minmatar = explosive Amarr = EM. The answer isn't to do away with EM damage, the answer is to make EM damage useful again. Perhaps. Just thinking around. The whole 'everyone has access to at least three damage types and we don't' argument. hybrids is only 2 damage types too... ... and what rodj says is how it is and what it takes to takes to get lasers balanced again.
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:37:00 - [23] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Originally by: Deathbarrage there's reasoning for each damage type, there's also enough reasoning that kinetic and thermic is the same since thermal energy is just moving particles... won't happen A discussion on this with my friend who studies Physics. (I know it's only pseudo science in Eve, but still...) Friend: you can't equate the macroscopic kinetic energy of an object with the kinetic energy of the particles that make it up Friend: the internal energy of a thermodynamic system is comprised of kinetic energy due to the rotation, vibration and translation of its particles; and potential energy due to the atomic forces in those particles themselves Friend: those are not equivalent to the kinetic energy of the complete system due to its motion through space Friend: put it this way, you can't cause a macroscopic object to move by hitting it with a laser beam Friend: therefore it has no kinetic effect Friend: you can just about manipulate microscopic glass beads using carefully controlled multiple femtosecond laser pulses, which is what a lot of people spend a lot of time doing in St Andrews Me: Can I quote you? Friend: he's quite right in saying that it imparts kinetic energy to the ship, but only by causing the molecules to vibrate Friend: and guess what that is Friend: heat! Friend: go ahead then to your friend Laser = concentrated light solar sail = Spaceship using a thin foil sail to catch light particles from the sun (AKA photons) and use this as propulsion to achieve sub-light speeds. Equals the solar sail is being pushed by a laser yet your friend just said otherwise even though this technique is being used by NASA weird Hahahahaha! Have you seen the size of the sails? And the ultimate speed produced? Even I can figure that out, and all I've got is high school Physics. You said yourself that a laser is concentrated light - a sun isn't! His response: Friend: ask him what he thinks happens if you point a suitably powerful laser at a solar sail Friend: it burns through it. Friend: and this is a 500g foil sheet we're talking about Friend: not a 5 megaton ship well the ultimate speed produced is infinite that's the entire point Also who the hell is talking about moving the entire ship? and how do you describe thermic energy if it has nothing to do with moving particles?
Oedus Caro Caldari Caldari Deep Space Ventures	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:42:00 - [24] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Originally by: Oedus Caro Laser on a sail, yes, but that's not to say a laser beam based, for example, on the earth couldn't be used to propel a spacecraft. I've seen something similar done on television - a laser was fired at a craftily shaped, highly reflective object, and it flew into the sky in quite a hurry. Mileage on the thing was admittedly very poor, but who knows where materials science might be in the EVE universe. Oooh I saw that documentary! Very interesting. Remember though, that that 'craft' had been shaped and shined specifically for that reason, to let it utilise these (minor) kinetic effects of a laser. I think it was more based around heating the air under the cone to make it expand, though. Fact is a laser on an object not specifically designed to utilize the force would have only microscopic kinetic effect. Hold on, I recall that it was shaped like an inverted cone within a larger cone, such that the bottom surfaces were orthogonal to each other. To me that sounds like it was designed to reflect the beam back on itself, thereby extracting roughly double the momentum of the beam (your friend, I hope, will agree that light has momentum, although it is without mass)... Anyway, I was not suggesting that EVE ships should be propelled that way; rather, I was just trying to deny what your friend had to say about lasers being unable to impart kinetic energy to objects to any significant degree (back in the first post in which you quote him).
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:46:00 - [25] Originally by: Oedus Caro Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Originally by: Oedus Caro Laser on a sail, yes, but that's not to say a laser beam based, for example, on the earth couldn't be used to propel a spacecraft. I've seen something similar done on television - a laser was fired at a craftily shaped, highly reflective object, and it flew into the sky in quite a hurry. Mileage on the thing was admittedly very poor, but who knows where materials science might be in the EVE universe. Oooh I saw that documentary! Very interesting. Remember though, that that 'craft' had been shaped and shined specifically for that reason, to let it utilise these (minor) kinetic effects of a laser. I think it was more based around heating the air under the cone to make it expand, though. Fact is a laser on an object not specifically designed to utilize the force would have only microscopic kinetic effect. Hold on, I recall that it was shaped like an inverted cone within a larger cone, such that the bottom surfaces were orthogonal to each other. To me that sounds like it was designed to reflect the beam back on itself, thereby extracting roughly double the momentum of the beam (your friend, I hope, will agree that light has momentum, although it is without mass)... Anyway, I was not suggesting that EVE ships should be propelled that way; rather, I was just trying to deny what your friend had to say about lasers being unable to impart kinetic energy to objects to any significant degree (back in the first post in which you quote him). ...unless specifically designed to do so. :-) Better? -J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson Balanced != Nerfed
Oedus Caro Caldari Caldari Deep Space Ventures	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:49:00 - [26] No. Shaping the object in that way enabled it to double the momentum gain from each photon it reflected. If it were to just absorb them all (rather like the broadside of a Minmatar battleship) it'd still gain momentum, just half as quickly (and only for as long as it can withstand the heat gain, obviously).
Almarez	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:58:00 - [27] Originally by: Sedai Hara Well teh most logical thing is just to turn Em/thermal around. so Lasers do primary Thermal and 2ndary EM. As Em=electromagnetic pulse its not how a laser work in our world(well nothing in eve is like in our world but atleats some logic!) Thermal = heat as every1 should know. heat is pure energy, lightis also pure energi.' Even more logical Lasers=concentrated high-intesety LIGHT, there by, heat(thermal) And we do need a weapon that deals SOME em, but to just flip it around fix it as what i see. you still do EM, good versus shields, and thermal so you can accualy dmg armor. I dont see so many flawns in this. But first just fix the cap usage, will make all amarians happy. Horrible idea switching the two types around. What this would do is allow players to totally ignore EM resistances because now the races would all do thermal, some explosive and some kinetic, and EM would just be secondary for two races. It would be a three damage type game and that just isn't good.
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.08 16:02:00 - [28] Originally by: Oedus Caro No. Shaping the object in that way enabled it to double the momentum gain from each photon it reflected. If it were to just absorb them all (rather like the broadside of a Minmatar battleship) it'd still gain momentum, just half as quickly (and only for as long as it can withstand the heat gain, obviously). But the moment is negligable from the photons themselves, that was the argument. Yes there would be momentum, you're quite correct, but nothing that could really be measured, I'd guess. If I'm wrong, that adds a nice twist to lasers - pushing things away ;-) -J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson Balanced != Nerfed
Lyzander Caldari BIG Advanced Assault Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.08 16:04:00 - [29] Just returning to the original topic for a moment. I've long been of the opinion that this problem could be easily solved by adding Particle Beams as a subclass of Energy Weapons. In terms of weapon profiles, it fits the bill perfect as an Energy Weapon. Also, as it is accelerating a cohesive beam of particles, it could deal EM/THM/KIN damage (or some variant thereof, EM/KIN perhaps). Of course, rather than introducing a third subclass another potential option would be to render all Pulse weapons into Lasers, and all Beam weapons into Particle Beams. Brilliant? Terrible? You can decide for yourself, I think it's a functional idea in all respects though.
Almarez	Posted - 2007.03.08 16:07:00 - [30] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Originally by: Sedai Hara Well teh most logical thing is just to turn Em/thermal around. so Lasers do primary Thermal and 2ndary EM. As Em=electromagnetic pulse its not how a laser work in our world(well nothing in eve is like in our world but atleats some logic!) Thermal = heat as every1 should know. heat is pure energy, lightis also pure energi.' Even more logical Lasers=concentrated high-intesety LIGHT, there by, heat(thermal) And we do need a weapon that deals SOME em, but to just flip it around fix it as what i see. you still do EM, good versus shields, and thermal so you can accualy dmg armor. I dont see so many flawns in this. But first just fix the cap usage, will make all amarians happy. Yeah, there is only minor EM effects in lasers: Friend: yeah, a laser beam is a coherent beam of orthogonal E and B fields, it has minimal electromagnetic effect on its target Friend: it's not going to cause an electric charge on it, or induce a magnetic field, because they cancel each other out in the beam Friend: the most it's going to do is bombard it with photons, and cause it to heat up Friend: and there'll be a certain amount of charge deficit due to the photoelectric effect, but probably negligible (I'm learning alot about laser mechanics today ;-) ) As for the cap effects - I don't think the guns should change - it should take alot of power to produce the beam. Instead give the ships better cap and cap bonuses to weapons, to reflect the Amarr 'mastery' of lasers. Um...no. Lasers definitely need cap reduction. So you're telling me that while other races get two useful bonuses, the Amarr waste one bonus so they can even use their weapons? Now, if they fixed NOS, whatever that means, then maybe the reduction doesn't have to be that drastic, but lets be serious something needs to be done. If you insist on keeping the cap usage the same then increase the tracking/optimal range/ damage modifier so that when we waste a bonus on cap usage it doesn't matter as much because the guns are sweet as is without a bonus. About damage types. Well Amarr basically have laser boats. There is one T1 ship I can think of that isn't a laser boat, that's the Arbitrator. After that you get into the Khannid ships and those just plain sucks (excusing the Curse). So while the other three races can vary how they case damage: Caldari - missle and blasters, Gallente - drones and blasters, Minmitar - missles and projectiles, Amarr have lasers, that's it. Doesn't it make sense to allow lasers to vary the damage types a little. Along with that, I don't think kinetic damage for lasers is that off the wall. What about a crystal(s) that supercharge dark matter into a kinetic damaging piece of space debris? This is a futuristic game after all.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.08 16:08:00 - [31] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Originally by: Oedus Caro No. Shaping the object in that way enabled it to double the momentum gain from each photon it reflected. If it were to just absorb them all (rather like the broadside of a Minmatar battleship) it'd still gain momentum, just half as quickly (and only for as long as it can withstand the heat gain, obviously). But the moment is negligable from the photons themselves, that was the argument. Yes there would be momentum, you're quite correct, but nothing that could really be measured, I'd guess. If I'm wrong, that adds a nice twist to lasers - pushing things away ;-) You know you guys have no clue what you're talking about right? For starters I believe Solar sails use solar winds to move "various subatomic particles released in the thermonuclear process of a star"", not the light itself. __________________________
Santa Anna	Posted - 2007.03.08 16:12:00 - [32] Originally by: Rodj Blake Each race has a primary damage type. Gallente = thermal Caldari = kinetic Minmatar = explosive Amarr = EM. The answer isn't to do away with EM damage, the answer is to make EM damage useful again. As a shield tanker, let me tell you that EM is very useful. Armor tanks are very very popular in PVP, so in PVP EXP is much better than EM. If you are killing Caldari shield tankers rather than Minmatar Armor tankers, though, you have a huge advantage. Caldari ships are incredibly common (guessing half the online population at any given time is in a Caldari ship) so you should be able to find a target. That being said, I fly a few Amarr ships and I fit them with projectile weapons, which let me gank and tank with speed using the luxurious Amarr cap. For most races' ships you can choose two of [tank, gank, speed] but for many Amarr ships it seems if you use lasers you can only choose one. If lasers are going to suck cap dry so quickly, they probably need to do more damage.
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.08 16:21:00 - [33] Originally by: Almarez Um...no. Lasers definitely need cap reduction. So you're telling me that while other races get two useful bonuses, the Amarr waste one bonus so they can even use their weapons? Now, if they fixed NOS, whatever that means, then maybe the reduction doesn't have to be that drastic, but lets be serious something needs to be done. If you insist on keeping the cap usage the same then increase the tracking/optimal range/ damage modifier so that when we waste a bonus on cap usage it doesn't matter as much because the guns are sweet as is without a bonus. About damage types. Well Amarr basically have laser boats. There is one T1 ship I can think of that isn't a laser boat, that's the Arbitrator. After that you get into the Khannid ships and those just plain sucks (excusing the Curse). So while the other three races can vary how they case damage: Caldari - missle and blasters, Gallente - drones and blasters, Minmitar - missles and projectiles, Amarr have lasers, that's it. Doesn't it make sense to allow lasers to vary the damage types a little. Along with that, I don't think kinetic damage for lasers is that off the wall. What about a crystal(s) that supercharge dark matter into a kinetic damaging piece of space debris? This is a futuristic game after all. If the Amarr are laser people, and you reduce things on the lasers themselves, then essentially all other races are getting the 'racial bonus' of the Amarr. They'd automatically be able to use lasers on any other ship that isn't Amarr just as good as if it was on an Amarr ship. That's why I say the 'bonus' should be on the ship. I agree that the Amarr need either vastly increased power on the lasers to make them hard as nails (which would fit the Amarr philosophy, crush with vast amounts of firepower) or a bit of diversity, which (to fit in again with the Amarr philosophy) would be laser based - i.e. different damage types. Increase the cap on Amarr ships, give a cap use bonus, and yeah I can see tracking needing a boost too. (All they are really doing is moving a mirror around - the tracking should be immense on that). The dark matter idea is a nice one, and fairly realistic - you can create cyclones of air using lasers in squares. Extending that you'd need to create a cylindar of light with a laser, and the hollow center would move the matter. Hmm. This would work with the other suggestion of particle accelerators. But again that's an overhaul, as opposed to a balance. I'm just trying to suggest an easily implementable balance. -J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson Balanced != Nerfed
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.08 16:27:00 - [34] Originally by: DubanFP Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Originally by: Oedus Caro No. Shaping the object in that way enabled it to double the momentum gain from each photon it reflected. If it were to just absorb them all (rather like the broadside of a Minmatar battleship) it'd still gain momentum, just half as quickly (and only for as long as it can withstand the heat gain, obviously). But the moment is negligable from the photons themselves, that was the argument. Yes there would be momentum, you're quite correct, but nothing that could really be measured, I'd guess. If I'm wrong, that adds a nice twist to lasers - pushing things away ;-) You know you guys have no clue what you're talking about right? For starters I believe Solar sails use solar winds to move "various subatomic particles released in the thermonuclear process of a star"", not the light itself. Uses photons, as far as I can see: Wiki on Solar Sails -J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson Balanced != Nerfed
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.03.08 16:33:00 - [35] Easiest fix would be to have an equal EM and thermal components for all crystals and then just increase damage as you get to the lower range crystals.
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.08 16:37:00 - [36] Edited by: J''Mkarr Soban on 08/03/2007 16:34:26 Originally by: Max Hardcase Easiest fix would be to have an equal EM and thermal components for all crystals and then just increase damage as you get to the lower range crystals. Which comes back to a thought I had during this, of make the lasers much more powerful (as it's the only choice) or give them diversity. Waay off topic, but what's the ship in your sig? -J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson Balanced != Nerfed
Lyzander Caldari BIG Advanced Assault Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.08 17:07:00 - [37] The ship in Max Hardcase's sig is a Hurricane; the hull is a slightly different colour than the usual red-brown.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.08 17:30:00 - [38] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Uses photons, as far as I can see: Wiki on Solar Sails It's wikipeida... ANYBODY, can change crap on wikipedia reguardless of merit. Sorry but you really should take wikipedia with a grain of salt. __________________________
Ragnor Dayton Amarr Paxton Industries	Posted - 2007.03.08 17:32:00 - [39] Amarr doing explosive or kinetic damage from lasers would not be within how the game is set up. However there are a couple of easy ways to reduce the EM damage problem that Amarr face, which basically is the overpowered passive omni tank, rather than the damage type. 1. Remove the EM resist bonus on EANM's (and explosive resist bonus on IF, to keep things fair). Justification as a resistance hole-patch module maybe. 2. Make the current passive resist modules (for both armor and shields) use minimal energy like the damage control does, 1 per 30 secs, then only allow 1 EANM (and IF to keep things fair) to be active on a ship, the same as damage controls are now. All using existing game mechanics and therefore requiring minimal programming I would think, and would aid balance in the game. ------------------------------------------------ Just because your not paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.03.08 17:50:00 - [40] Get rid of EANM's and Invuln fields! :E
Esurnir Amarr Bears Inc FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.08 17:54:00 - [41] Originally by: Deathbarrage then to your friend Laser = concentrated light solar sail = Spaceship using a thin foil sail to catch light particles from the sun (AKA photons) and use this as propulsion to achieve sub-light speeds. Equals the solar sail is being pushed by a laser yet your friend just said otherwise even though this technique is being used by NASA weird A solar sail would never use pure light as a method of locomotion, If I use a boosted flamethrower on a chunk of iron, the iron wont move (except if I use really heavy fuel) it will melt. The "tin foil" wont catch "Light" it will catch solar wind wich is cold hard electron particle ejected by the sun (and in mass during solar eruption, wich create the phenomenon known as "Aurora borealis"). ---- Quote: Thou shall pew pew. Book of Revelation 12, 51
Oedus Caro Caldari Caldari Deep Space Ventures	Posted - 2007.03.08 18:08:00 - [42] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Originally by: Oedus Caro No. Shaping the object in that way enabled it to double the momentum gain from each photon it reflected. If it were to just absorb them all (rather like the broadside of a Minmatar battleship) it'd still gain momentum, just half as quickly (and only for as long as it can withstand the heat gain, obviously). But the moment is negligible from the photons themselves, that was the argument. Yes there would be momentum, you're quite correct, but nothing that could really be measured, I'd guess. If I'm wrong, that adds a nice twist to lasers - pushing things away ;-) Does that argument still stand? I thought we had agreed that the real life example of laser propulsion was possible through the transmission of photon momentum, not atmospheric shock-waves? If we did, then you must agree that the effect of photon momentum is measurable - it's even macroscopic. I admit that the masses involved in EVE are many many orders of magnitude greater, but then the power of lasers must be similarly increased... On the other hand, if you're still not convinced, let me take another shot at the example: suppose, as you thought, that the peculiar shape the researchers used flew not by reflecting light, but by rapidly heating the air beneath it. How might it have done that? Ordinary air absorbs laser energy slowly, so in order for the device to worked it would probably have had to absorb the energy before transferring it to the air beneath via conduction, all while maintaining a low temperature on the upper surface. But wouldn't that have destroyed the device immediately? Even if they found a way around that (some sort of sophisticated light trap, for example), how would fresh air have replaced that which was heated without ruining the thrust-generating dynamics of the shape?
Oedus Caro Caldari Caldari Deep Space Ventures	Posted - 2007.03.08 18:15:00 - [43] Originally by: DubanFP You know you guys have no clue what you're talking about right? For starters I believe Solar sails use solar winds to move "various subatomic particles released in the thermonuclear process of a star"", not the light itself. Actually, it is not so much that we have no clue, but that you have no clue. Our discussion left the solar sail example entirely; we were talking about an experiment we saw on TV in which a powerful laser was used to propel a specially-designed object high into the air. In that context the solar wind is completely irrelevant. The key is right here: Linkage. In particular, notice the 'p'.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.08 19:59:00 - [44] Edited by: Goumindong on 08/03/2007 19:57:32 Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban If the Amarr are laser people, and you reduce things on the lasers themselves, then essentially all other races are getting the 'racial bonus' of the Amarr. They'd automatically be able to use lasers on any other ship that isn't Amarr just as good as if it was on an Amarr ship. That's why I say the 'bonus' should be on the ship. So blasters and artillery arent racial weapons? Why are only Lasers racial weapons? Also, why is anyone worried that anyone is going to fit lasers on their ship that doesnt have a bonus to them. Amarr, as it stands, put autocannons and blasters on ships that DO have bonuses to them[For example, a small blaster Maller, an Autocannon Maller, a Large Neutron Blaster Abaddon/Autocannon Abaddon are all decent choices, not great, but better than their laser alternative]. So why, even with a 50% reduction in capacitor on the lasers, are we going to be expecting other races ships, that get bonuses to other weapon systems using them? Why do incorrectly sized lasers have more penalities than incorrectly sized blasters or autocannons? Originally by: welsh wizard Get rid of EANM's and Invuln fields! :E You wouldnt need to get rid of inv fields. Autocannon/projectile users can change their ammo type to phased Plasma, which ingores the typical "em hardener" you would see on shield based ships, but also the high explosive resistance. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Felix Dzerzhinsky Pirates of Destruction Union Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.08 20:23:00 - [45] Originally by: Sedai Hara Well teh most logical thing is just to turn Em/thermal around. so Lasers do primary Thermal and 2ndary EM. As Em=electromagnetic pulse its not how a laser work in our world(well nothing in eve is like in our world but atleats some logic!) Thermal = heat as every1 should know. heat is pure energy, lightis also pure energi.' Even more logical Lasers=concentrated high-intesety LIGHT, there by, heat(thermal) And we do need a weapon that deals SOME em, but to just flip it around fix it as what i see. you still do EM, good versus shields, and thermal so you can accualy dmg armor. I dont see so many flawns in this. But first just fix the cap usage, will make all amarians happy. This is the right direction: Instead of EM/Therm, lasers should do Therm/EM. Now Hybrid wepons do 2 damage types - so I don't see an issue with the Amarr doing 2 as well, but the EM/Therm balance needs to be reworked. The big issue is cap and powergrid. Beams take too much PG, and too much cap. While increacing PG is a solution for fitting, increacing cap is not - at least untill NoS gets balanced a bit.
Klavayne Pack Of Shadows	Posted - 2007.03.08 20:36:00 - [46] Originally by: DubanFP Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Uses photons, as far as I can see: Wiki on Solar Sails It's wikipeida... ANYBODY, can change crap on wikipedia reguardless of merit. Sorry but you really should take wikipedia with a grain of salt. Wasn't gonna post on this topic until this post. One question, why should we take wikipedia (a frequently moderated, open source encyclopedia written by people with expertise in that area with referenced material) with a pinch of salt while at the same time listen to what you say? Yes, anybody can change things on wiki, but it has to be of real merit to actually stay there due to the strict moderation. Back OT, you can never justify things with scientific principle on EVE. It just doesn't work, and opens up a can of worms too big to even think about. You have to think of this in terms of balancing gameplay first, then making the story fit afterwards. Like somebody said much earlier.
Novina Agrari	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:08:00 - [47] Give lasers more thermal damage? So, make it so two races (Amarr and Gallente) primarily dish out thermal with their guns? And you don't think this is going to result in people shifting their tank focus to heavy thermal? Think outside the box, like me! Here's an unorthodox suggestion everyone will hate, but which is - and I say this with all confidence - better than every other idea that has so far been offered. 1) Ditch weapon destabilizers as the amarr Ewar specialty. Reasoning: Take a look at the other options. ECM works beautifully in just about every situation (Even against missile boats with FOF missiles - forcing pilots to use that ammo cuts their dps down drastically.) RSDs, similarly (It's pointless if your ship is decked out for extreme close range, but what are the odds it is if you're using RSDs?) Target painters? They sort of suck, but in principle increasing the sig of a ship is good against every ship you go up against, possibly excluding battleships. Weapon disruptors? It's useful against ships that use turrets. Which is great, unless you go up against a caldari (Missiles are entirely unaffected by this), gallente (Drones are entirely unaffected by this), and a good chunk of minmatar (Odd ships with mixes of drones and missiles), or snipers (Too far away for the WD to work.) Ditch these as racial ewar, they're too narrow in use. Instead, introduce a high-cap, ammo-using, hi-slot ewar that reduces the target's resistance over 20 seconds. Split it across 8 ammo types, 1 for each damage type paired with either shield or armor. So an ammo for EM-armor lowering, an ammo for EM-shield lowering, etc. Now the amarr pilot goes out knowing that if he comes up against an enemy with 95% EM resist, he has a way to reduce it to nearly 50% at the cost of fitting and cap. 2) Keep everything else the same. That's right, keep our obnoxious PG requirements, our as-of-yet crappy damage, our tracking issues, and our cap use just the way they are. Because step 1 solves all of the problems amarr really have in one fell swoop. While every other race has versatility in how and what kind of damage they do, amarr get versatility in being able to reduce what kind of damage their target can really handle. It's even a great IC solution - this is exactly what the tradition-based, stubborn amarrs would do. 3) Praise me and send me ISK in game for coming up with a solution that is, frankly, awesome. Also amazing. In fact, when this goes into the game, name the best named version of these things 'Novina-class' equipment, in my honor. You're welcome.
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:23:00 - [48] Originally by: Lyzander The ship in Max Hardcase's sig is a Hurricane; the hull is a slightly different colour than the usual red-brown. Yup, photoshop 4tw ! Deep blue is also pretty good in the looks department. Could see a hard yellow look as well.
Oedus Caro Caldari Caldari Deep Space Ventures	Posted - 2007.03.08 22:21:00 - [49] Edited by: Oedus Caro on 08/03/2007 22:19:06 Originally by: Max Hardcase Edited by: Max Hardcase on 08/03/2007 21:43:21 Originally by: Lyzander The ship in Max Hardcase's sig is a Hurricane; the hull is a slightly different colour than the usual red-brown. Yup, photoshop 4tw ! Deep blue is also pretty good in the looks department. Could see a hard yellow look as well. Now if you want to know why a Gallente char,who has a hurricane in his sig, replies in Laser Thread ...... It's just not Minmatar if it ain't in that peculiar shade of brown... In fact, I dare say that what you have in your sig looks... Caldari.
Erim Solfara Amarr Tarlos INC	Posted - 2007.03.08 22:54:00 - [50] Originally by: DarkElf Ok firstly, you think waaaaaay too much about the scientific explanations behind doing stuff Secondly, has been talked about for a coupla years now. i'd say if it was gonna happen it would have by now. I reckon there's about as much chance of amarr getting explosive crystals as there is of having drones actually do what you tell them. nada DE No, you don't think about it enough. But then we wouldn't expect you to understand with a character name like that would we? New ship class
Oedus Caro Caldari Caldari Deep Space Ventures	Posted - 2007.03.08 23:19:00 - [51] Originally by: Erim Solfara Originally by: DarkElf Ok firstly, you think waaaaaay too much about the scientific explanations behind doing stuff Secondly, has been talked about for a coupla years now. i'd say if it was gonna happen it would have by now. I reckon there's about as much chance of amarr getting explosive crystals as there is of having drones actually do what you tell them. nada DE No, you don't think about it enough. But then we wouldn't expect you to understand with a character name like that would we? Owned.
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.08 23:38:00 - [52] Originally by: Oedus Caro Originally by: Erim Solfara Originally by: DarkElf Ok firstly, you think waaaaaay too much about the scientific explanations behind doing stuff Secondly, has been talked about for a coupla years now. i'd say if it was gonna happen it would have by now. I reckon there's about as much chance of amarr getting explosive crystals as there is of having drones actually do what you tell them. nada DE No, you don't think about it enough. But then we wouldn't expect you to understand with a character name like that would we? Owned. Hahahaha! Nice. -J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson Balanced != Nerfed
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.03.08 23:49:00 - [53] yay EMP charge for amarr without the crappy DPS that minmatar have. Woot so balanced!111!11!1 Would solve abbadon's ca****ues though, every ship would be melted in 5 volleys. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Shayla Sh'inlux The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.03.09 00:43:00 - [54] Screwing with the Amarr ship bonuses will only cause all kinds of mess. That bonus is there for a reason and lasers are supposed to be balanced taking that bonus into account. For the same reasons pretty much every Gallentean ships gets a hybrid damage bonus (only ships that doest get it is the Myrmidon) because, frankly, blasters blow without the damage bonus and rails without do subpar damage as well (ie, Caldari turret boats other than the Rokh do low damage, but compensate with extreme ranges). You might also have noticed that projectiles completely blow without bonuses as well. See the pattern? We're encouraged to use the proper guns racial on each ship. Lasers have a high normalized damage because they cost so much cap. This is then compensated with the ship bonus not being damage, but geared towards making lasers usable. Now the problem Amarr is facing is multispec tanking. Thanks to Damage Controls, and Invuls/EANM EM damage is pretty ****ty damage to do. If Tuxford would do something smart (would be a firsttimer tho) he'd nerf down Invul's II to be equal to EANM and then remove Explosive resists from the Invul and EM resist from the EANM. Then nerf damage controls to only affect hull and we're getting somewhere. This silly tankability of ships is getting kinda out of control and Amarr happen to be the victim. Of course knowing Tuxford he will probably screw around with a billion different things, semi-fixing lasers while breaking 15 other things in the process. Oh and for the record - giving lasers an explosive crystal would be utterly and completely overpowered. And not only because lasers can switch crystals instantly. Discussing moderation is a no-no- Tirg
Tangentoar Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.03.09 01:57:00 - [55] I'm an energy turret user primarily and do think they need a buff rather than other mods being changed like the EANM being changed as some have suggested. Quite simply I think that they should do more thermal damage as in my experiance of ppl's setups they are less likely to have tanked for it, and it does allround better damage on shields and armour than any other type if they have not tanked for it specificly. In fact some PPL I know take just thermal javelin torps for their pvp Raven just for this particular reason and they are pretty succesfull.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.09 02:10:00 - [56] Originally by: madaluap yay EMP charge for amarr without the crappy DPS that minmatar have. Woot so balanced!111!11!1 Would solve abbadon's ca****ues though, every ship would be melted in 5 volleys. Minmatar do not have crappy DPS. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.09 02:23:00 - [57] Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Snip No it wont. That bonus was there for a reason, and that reason was that ages ago, when damage mods were not stacked, ships had much less hit points, and pulse lasers had even longer range that range was the king of all. Blasters do not blow without the damage bonus, and nor do rails. Rails have the most important attribute in a ranged battle[range] and blasters have the most important attribute in a short battle[damage]. Amarran boats that do not get damage bonuses are near unisverally better with either autocannons or blasters. You might also notice that projectiles do not completly blow without a bonus. Minmatar ships have two bonuses because minmatar ships have less turrets than their competiting ships. The Rupture has only 4 turrets compared to the Thorax's 5. A 25% damage bonus and it has been normalized to 5. So the bonus that the Rupture gets is an extra high slot and lower fitting requirements. See the Pattern? Each and every non tech 2 minmatar ship that gets a double damage bonus has less turrets than its competitors Lasers dont have a high normalized damage. They have 11% more than autocannons and 16% less than blasters. This is right smack dab in the middle. After bonuses are applied, they are far far in the rear of the pack. If you knew anything about meta fitting you would know that Invuln Fields help amarr. They do this because they make omni tanking more productive, which lowers the chances of a shield tanker fitting an active EM hardener. Once a shield tanker fits an active EM hardener lasers are roughly on the same level for shields as everyone else. Omni shield tanking helps amarr. Killing invulns would help Minmatar. However, minmatar since they can change damage types, dont really need the help. EANMS are another matter, since they have both 0 cap use and much easier fitting requirements. Which means in the meta there is no chance of a specific hardener setting which would advantage lasers.[save 40 cpu and 3 cap/second for the same resists + 50% em resistance extra? Wooo!] It is stupid thinking like this, where past game conditions are confused with current game conditions that keep tux and the devs from giving amarrans a freaking second bonus to their ships. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Oedus Caro Caldari Caldari Deep Space Ventures	Posted - 2007.03.09 02:30:00 - [58] Originally by: madaluap yay EMP charge for amarr without the crappy DPS that minmatar have. Woot so balanced!111!11!1 Would solve abbadon's ca***ues though, every ship would be melted in 5 volleys. What you mean is, one* ship would be melted in 5 volleys. Then the Abaddon waits...
6Bagheera9 Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 03:39:00 - [59] Has anyone noticed that blasters actually deal more kinetic damage than thermal despite being one of the weapons of choice for the "thermal" race. Just switch lasers to Thermal/EM and tweak the ratios as needed. Its a simple and logical solution and its kinda sad that it hasn't been implemented already.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.09 04:20:00 - [60] Edited by: Goumindong on 09/03/2007 04:17:42 Originally by: Maeltstome Dig into the new database the Dev's released... So far i've found a new type of tech II ammo for minmatar - so im fuessing that means if you hit the right name then you'll find the same for other races, meaning exp for amarr. Yea, the ammos are fairly old as far as i know, and never implemented. They probably wont ever be Blaze M is the one you are looking for. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Maeltstome	Posted - 2007.03.09 04:40:00 - [61] They wouldn't really add alot to the game IMO. The last thing we need is more T2 items that cost too much, 50% of T2 atm is never used due it not being worth it. Range modifying ammo is the only widely used T2 ammo (scorch, barrage, spike etc.), beyond that, most people will always use Antimatter over Void, and Multifreq over conflag. My 2 cents anyway.
Zoppo Trump Amarr Really Nice And Laidback Corporation	Posted - 2007.03.09 08:53:00 - [62] Leave the lasers alone. As said above, the more damagetypes discussion for lasers went on for years now, if it hasnt changed yet it never will. We dont need a laser upgrade, it would break too many other stuff indeed, we just need two new Amarr ships. Amarr already owns one droneplatform, the Arbitrator and its tech2 variants. Its very atypical for Amarr but widly used and quite popular, look at the Pilgrim-variant for example. So i say give Amarr one missileboat (maybe a Khanid) and one with a turret bonus and we are fine. Notice i said turret bonus not laser, a bonus viable to all turret weapons, lasers, projectile or blaster alike. In this way Amarr pilots may choose damage types by chosing the right ships to do so like flying an Arbitrator right now. And if you make those new ships desirable (like the Pilgrim) but hard to get skillwise (like almost all tech2 variants) there isnt much reason to whine for other races, i cant hear much whine bout the Pilgrim these days at least.
Nifel Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.09 09:43:00 - [63] I agree! Lasers should get a new damage type called Whine! "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: Sama
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.09 10:42:00 - [64] Originally by: Zoppo Trump Leave the lasers alone. As said above, the more damagetypes discussion for lasers went on for years now, if it hasnt changed yet it never will. We dont need a laser upgrade, it would break too many other stuff indeed, we just need two new Amarr ships. Amarr already owns one droneplatform, the Arbitrator and its tech2 variants. Its very atypical for Amarr but widly used and quite popular, look at the Pilgrim-variant for example. So i say give Amarr one missileboat (maybe a Khanid) and one with a turret bonus and we are fine. Notice i said turret bonus not laser, a bonus viable to all turret weapons, lasers, projectile or blaster alike. In this way Amarr pilots may choose damage types by chosing the right ships to do so like flying an Arbitrator right now. And if you make those new ships desirable (like the Pilgrim) but hard to get skillwise (like almost all tech2 variants) there isnt much reason to whine for other races, i cant hear much whine bout the Pilgrim these days at least. How would you justify this in game? -J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson Balanced != Nerfed
Zoppo Trump Amarr Really Nice And Laidback Corporation	Posted - 2007.03.09 12:13:00 - [65] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban How would you justify this in game? Well, a missile boat could be justified as being khanid and half-caldari this way. A general turret bonus? No idea. How do you justify the Arbitrator/Pilgrim?
Dr Shameless Skull Soft The Sundering	Posted - 2007.03.09 14:48:00 - [66] maybe not change the laser weapons radically but add new type of crystal that changes energy into sound - making it effectively a sonic gun: deals pure kinetic
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.09 15:21:00 - [67] Edited by: Humpalot on 09/03/2007 15:23:09 Originally by: Dr Shameless maybe not change the laser weapons radically but add new type of crystal that changes energy into sound - making it effectively a sonic gun: deals pure kinetic Sound in space? Besides, pretty sure sonic damage would equate to thermal damage and not kinetic. Actually if you want to give Amarr a different, yet scientifically plausible (as far as that matters for a game), damage type the answer is a Particle Beam weapon. Maintains the Amarr racial reliance on energy weapons but a Particle Beam imparts kinetic damage. And yes, particle beams are real things (pre-date even lasers). It is an energy weapon in so far as you use massive amounts of energy to accelerate subatomic particles to near light speed. Those particles, having mass, impart kinetic damage on whatever they hit. EDIT: Bah, going back to re-read an earlier post I see someone else already mentioned Particle Beams on the first page. Ahh well...I'll leave this anyway since it bears repeating.
Bardi MecAuldnis Amarr Pirates of Destruction Union Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 16:41:00 - [68] I'd love to see a thermal/explosive crystal. For RP value, you could say they were trying to develop an extremely high powered pure thermal crystal, and it ended up causing so much thermal damage that it heats the materials it comes in contact with until they explode. Have it as a t2 crystal that severely owns your range (by like 75%) and whatever else. Boom, we have a viable close range weapon and can alleviate the EM enema. --- Hey hey let's go kenka suru! Taisetsuna mono protect my balls! Boku ga warui so lets fighting! LET'S FIGHTING LOVE!!!
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.09 18:31:00 - [69] Thanks a lot for all your ideas. I think discussing things like this (as I said before) takes out some of the hard work from CCP, making it more likely we get a decent boost if/when we do. (Plus I love hearing other views of the Eve universe . It seems it is plausible to add both explosive (easily, via crystals) and kinetic (harder, means re-working the whole 'energy weapons' tree). Or both, by implementing a missile boat(s) (which I would actually kill for - no, really. Plus it makes perfect sense given the close relations between the Caldari and the Amarr. Make the Apoc a missile boat please!) -J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson Balanced != Nerfed
6Bagheera9 Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 20:35:00 - [70] Just to one of the many silly notions from this thread, we already have particle beams in EvE. We call them blasters, they just happen to be designed to spew out a large volume of charged particle instead of a narrow beam.
Randolf Sightblinder Ex Coelis	Posted - 2007.03.09 21:14:00 - [71] One thing that sort of bugs me when I look at the lasers I usually do think WTF? The "Holy Grail" of lasing for weapons aplications in most sci-fi and even moden science is an X-ray laser. These lasers are expected to show impact and blast effects on targets and the current problems involve producing them effciently w/o a tactical nuke, look up bomb pumped lasers. The fact that the most damaging lasers are what in the modern world usually the least is amazing. Randolf Sightblinder
Lyzander Caldari BIG Advanced Assault Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.09 23:49:00 - [72] Edited by: Lyzander on 09/03/2007 23:47:48 Originally by: 6Bagheera9 Just to one of the many silly notions from this thread, we already have particle beams in EvE. We call them blasters, they just happen to be designed to spew out a large volume of charged particle instead of a narrow beam. They are indeed both particle weapons, however I feel there is enough difference between them to merit a new/tweaked energy weapon class. Particle Blasters are designed to process the ammunition into a contained sphere of plasma, then accelerate the blob toward the target. As the magnetic field breaks down rapidly, Particle Blasters have a very short effective range. Particle Beams on the other hand, would use a smaller quantity of subatomic particles (not necessarily in a plasma state) and accelerate them to near-light speeds in a cohesive beam. The energy contained in the carrier beam itself as well as the immense speed of the particles causes the resultant damage. Particle consumption may necessitate a type of 'ammo' for such weapons, however it would not likely be high enough to be of any real consequence; this could be simplified ingame by either no use of ammo, or have single crystals last dozens/hundreds of shots. Similar superficially, but I think true particle beams definitely would provide a unique new weapon which would still fit with existing backstory & technology. EDIT: The original suggestion I had regarding Particle Beams can be read HERE for those interested.
Gadawan	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:00:00 - [73] Originally by: DarkElf I reckon there's about as much chance of amarr getting explosive crystals as there is of having drones actually do what you tell them. nada DE Can I have explosive crystals now?
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:14:00 - [74] -Necro -No, you can't because drones still need repeated orders pretty often. -RIP to that guy, if I gatherred things correctly. His posting was often pretty good.
Brother Welcome	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:22:00 - [75] Edited by: Brother Welcome on 13/12/2007 12:24:18 The problem is really that the damage is divided unhelpfully and unalterably across two types. Just have some crystals do more EM and possibly no Therm, and others more Therm and possibly no EM. Then ditch all the overlapping range increments in favour of just short, med, long so you still have about the same number of crystal colours. And keep a decent energy cost reduction on all of them to balance the ships out a bit better.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:25:00 - [76] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban This way of thinking about it maintains all the current ways that damage is dealt (shields first, then armour) including resistances. It also makes sense from a storyline point of view - the Minmatar develop EM resistances to shields, so the Amarr think up a way to get through that extra resistance. Anyway, just throwing this out as an idea. Maybe T2 crystals? Probably have to be short range to get the kind of focus needed. It doesn't make sense from a gameplay point of view. Want explosive/kinetic (with various 'mixed damage' T1 ammo)? Use Minmatar. Want kinetic/thermal? Use Gallente. Want everything: Use Caldari/Khanid. Want EM/Thermal? Use Amarr. Should Gallente maybe want a blaster that does explosive+EM damage? Should we give everyone everything? No. There's nothing wrong with racial damage types. Unless you really want to tell me Gallente are so underpowered because they can't do explosive/EM.... Rifters!
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:30:00 - [77] Don't think we need new laser damage type stuff. But I reckon we should be looking at what scripts could do for lasers. Like, having a 'energy neut' component, or maybe an 'target unlocking' element to laser weaponry. Or hell, just have 'energy turrets <-> energy pulse weaponse <-> energy transfer systems' type scripts, so you can switch a turret from neut crystal, to multifreq crystal. Or something. That might be funky. Blaze crystals would be bad and wrong, IMO. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:33:00 - [78] Originally by: James Lyrus Don't think we need new laser damage type stuff. But I reckon we should be looking at what scripts could do for lasers. Like, having a 'energy neut' component, or maybe an 'target unlocking' element to laser weaponry. Or hell, just have 'energy turrets <-> energy pulse weaponse <-> energy transfer systems' type scripts, so you can switch a turret from neut crystal, to multifreq crystal. Or something. That might be funky. Blaze crystals would be bad and wrong, IMO. Why not just give lasers smaller cap usage and give the ships with the silly "x reduction to cap usage" bonus a actual gun bonus? Rifters!
achoura	Posted - 2007.12.13 13:05:00 - [79] BLAZE M
Gadawan	Posted - 2007.12.14 08:47:00 - [80] Edited by: Gadawan on 14/12/2007 08:52:36 Originally by: Qui Shon -Necro -No, you can't because drones still need repeated orders pretty often. -RIP to that guy, if I gatherred things correctly. His posting was often pretty good. I better make a new thread about something already disgussed then? You're an idiot. Besides, my drones do exactly what I tell them to.
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.12.14 08:55:00 - [81] Fixing broken omni-tanks and unfair racial resists (gg CCP, minnies get -25% dmg while amarr get -11% dmg ) should fix the issue. An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Kruel Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2007.12.14 16:02:00 - [82] Originally by: achoura BLAZE M ^^ Me want
Dianeces Minmatar Repo Industries	Posted - 2007.12.14 16:24:00 - [83] Edited by: Dianeces on 14/12/2007 16:26:28 Originally by: Gadawan Originally by: DarkElf I reckon there's about as much chance of amarr getting explosive crystals as there is of having drones actually do what you tell them. nada DE Can I have explosive crystals now? Bad necro is bad. Edit: Poasting in a thread shinsushi has whined in.
Kadoes Khan	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:17:00 - [84] Quote: You might also have noticed that projectiles completely blow without a bonus as well; a lot of Minmatar whiners argue they require two damage bonuses to even function but then conveniently forget the huge advantage of explosive damage and no cap use. If projectiles are that bad would you care to explain why many laser boats out there are using unbonused projectile weapons instead of lasers? -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity."
Serret Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:32:00 - [85] Originally by: Lyzander Particle Beams on the other hand, would use a smaller quantity of subatomic particles (not necessarily in a plasma state) What's the definition of the plasma state again? Quote: and accelerate them to near-light speeds in a cohesive beam. The energy contained in the carrier beam itself as well as the immense speed of the particles causes the resultant damage. What "carrier beam" is involved in a stream of particles? Quote: Particle consumption may necessitate a type of 'ammo' for such weapons, however it would not likely be high enough to be of any real consequence; this could be simplified ingame by either no use of ammo, or have single crystals last dozens/hundreds of shots. Where do the particles come from, if not from an "ammo" consumable? If there aren't very many particles, then where does the damage come from? Quote: Similar superficially, but I think true particle beams definitely would provide a unique new weapon which would still fit with existing backstory & technology. A true "firehose of particles which naturally want to fly apart from each other" makes a ton of sense, along with lots of other strange physics in this thread. -- <Coupo`Work> if i die illl gum you to death
Brea Lafail	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:19:00 - [86] Originally by: Barry Cuda Amarr needs lasers that are always on so they can wave them around the battlefield and slice ships in half effortlessly. I would then be happy with lasers. I would give my left foot to see a tachyon beam cut the fins off a maelstrom or a Revelation slicing a Chimera in two. Explosive crystals would be a massive buff to lazorz. While they do need some love, selectable damage type combined with the quick crystal changes would just go too far. As for pseudo-scientific reasoning for such crystals, I could think of a million. Thermal shock causing localized weakening of ceramic plating, resulting in catastrophic (explosive) failure? Rapid evolution of gaseous phases from super-heating of ceramics causing explosion like pressure waves? Who knows. No matter how you look at it, lasers are pure awesome.
Jan Ars The Thrill Kill Club	Posted - 2007.12.14 21:13:00 - [87] Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Originally by: Deathbarrage there's reasoning for each damage type, there's also enough reasoning that kinetic and thermic is the same since thermal energy is just moving particles... won't happen A discussion on this with my friend who studies Physics. (I know it's only pseudo science in Eve, but still...) Friend: you can't equate the macroscopic kinetic energy of an object with the kinetic energy of the particles that make it up Friend: the internal energy of a thermodynamic system is comprised of kinetic energy due to the rotation, vibration and translation of its particles; and potential energy due to the atomic forces in those particles themselves Friend: those are not equivalent to the kinetic energy of the complete system due to its motion through space Friend: put it this way, you can't cause a macroscopic object to move by hitting it with a laser beam Friend: therefore it has no kinetic effect Friend: you can just about manipulate microscopic glass beads using carefully controlled multiple femtosecond laser pulses, which is what a lot of people spend a lot of time doing in St Andrews Me: Can I quote you? Friend: he's quite right in saying that it imparts kinetic energy to the ship, but only by causing the molecules to vibrate Friend: and guess what that is Friend: heat! Friend: go ahead then to your friend Laser = concentrated light solar sail = Spaceship using a thin foil sail to catch light particles from the sun (AKA photons) and use this as propulsion to achieve sub-light speeds. Equals the solar sail is being pushed by a laser yet your friend just said otherwise even though this technique is being used by NASA weird As a point of order: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sail The kinetic energy imparted by a single photon is, well, negligible. You don't feel photons striking your skin as an impact, you feel it as heat (if it's substantial enough to feel it at all). I'm not trying to make trouble, but even a solar sail, designed to "catch" the solar wind, is impelled along slowly. Light lacks the kinetic energy, even in a cohesive form, to "strike" an object like a rock might strike a windshield, or an apple might strike your head. Just adding a few thoughts, I would fully support some sort of change to Lasers damage type. ECM Specialist
Jakaman	Posted - 2008.03.10 22:13:00 - [88] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Originally by: Sedai Hara Well teh most logical thing is just to turn Em/thermal around. so Lasers do primary Thermal and 2ndary EM. As Em=electromagnetic pulse its not how a laser work in our world(well nothing in eve is like in our world but atleats some logic!) Thermal = heat as every1 should know. heat is pure energy, lightis also pure energi.' Even more logical Lasers=concentrated high-intesety LIGHT, there by, heat(thermal) And we do need a weapon that deals SOME em, but to just flip it around fix it as what i see. you still do EM, good versus shields, and thermal so you can accualy dmg armor. I dont see so many flawns in this. But first just fix the cap usage, will make all amarians happy. Yeah, there is only minor EM effects in lasers: Friend: yeah, a laser beam is a coherent beam of orthogonal E and B fields, it has minimal electromagnetic effect on its target Friend: it's not going to cause an electric charge on it, or induce a magnetic field, because they cancel each other out in the beam Friend: the most it's going to do is bombard it with photons, and cause it to heat up Friend: and there'll be a certain amount of charge deficit due to the photoelectric effect, but probably negligible (I'm learning alot about laser mechanics today ;-) ) As for the cap effects - I don't think the guns should change - it should take alot of power to produce the beam. Instead give the ships better cap and cap bonuses to weapons, to reflect the Amarr 'mastery' of lasers. Yeah, it makes sense for me that EM damage is just that negligible charge deficit. How can that do damage? If explosive crystals weren't introduced into game because they aren't "scientifically explainable", why EM side of damage? And also, what's the difference between explosive and kinetic damage types?
Katrina Coreli No Fear Buccaneers	Posted - 2008.03.10 22:53:00 - [89] N N N N N NEEEECRO POST!
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.10 23:00:00 - [90] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Friend: put it this way, you can't cause a macroscopic object to move by hitting it with a laser beam Ive studied physics at college level too and I can say that this is wrong. The effect might be small but beams have an impact effect on macroscopic objects, ie you can actually move stuff with a laser beam but you need a friggin powerful one and a very light object to see the effect. To say that light doesnt have kinetic impact like a bullet is false. It does have it, but the effect is so small compared to the heating effect/damage that in reality you can disregard it. Still in a game where the physics are physics-lite combined with sci-fi logic there is no theoretical reason to deny lasers doing kinetic damage. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Thorek Ironbrow Ironbrow Industries Co. Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss	Posted - 2008.03.10 23:00:00 - [91] Originally by: Sedai Hara Well teh most logical thing is just to turn Em/thermal around. so Lasers do primary Thermal and 2ndary EM. As Em=electromagnetic pulse its not how a laser work in our world(well nothing in eve is like in our world but atleats some logic!) Thermal = heat as every1 should know. heat is pure energy, lightis also pure energi.' Even more logical Lasers=concentrated high-intesety LIGHT, there by, heat(thermal) And we do need a weapon that deals SOME em, but to just flip it around fix it as what i see. you still do EM, good versus shields, and thermal so you can accualy dmg armor. I dont see so many flawns in this. But first just fix the cap usage, will make all amarians happy. /signed. But don't some crystals do that? _____________________________ "So what do you need, besides a miracle?" "Guns... Lots of guns"
xHalcyonx Amarr Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.10 23:02:00 - [92] >_> Looks at sig... ------------------- ნỊs uʍop əpỊsdn Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
Jakaman	Posted - 2008.03.11 08:55:00 - [93] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Friend: put it this way, you can't cause a macroscopic object to move by hitting it with a laser beam Ive studied physics at college level too and I can say that this is wrong. The effect might be small but beams have an impact effect on macroscopic objects, ie you can actually move stuff with a laser beam but you need a friggin powerful one and a very light object to see the effect. To say that light doesnt have kinetic impact like a bullet is false. It does have it, but the effect is so small compared to the heating effect/damage that in reality you can disregard it. Still in a game where the physics are physics-lite combined with sci-fi logic there is no theoretical reason to deny lasers doing kinetic damage. It makes more sense for laser's to have thermal/kinetic damage rather than em/thermal. WTF is electromagnetic damage? EMP is used to destroy circuits by creating damaging current in them. If that current is applied to metal(armor) -> more thermal damage.
Sionide Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.11 17:24:00 - [94] To the OP: Just forget about it. Amarr is em and therm dmg. If you get another damage type (besides drones) then get ammo like all the rest of us and have reload times. See how you like to be able to fire about 20 rounds then having reload.
Jokus Balim Minmatar Rising Sun Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.11 19:41:00 - [95] Edited by: Jokus Balim on 11/03/2008 19:43:29 Edited by: Jokus Balim on 11/03/2008 19:42:04 Edited by: Jokus Balim on 11/03/2008 19:41:42 EM damage for lasers is quite fine, when you choose visible light and higher frequencies. Infrared and lower frequencies fits better to thermal damage, since it corresponds with the vibrational and rotational spectra of matter. Photons of several eV (1 eV is near infrared at 1240nm wavelength, 10 eV is ultraviolett at 124nm, 100 eV is soft xray at 12.4nm) and higher energy have enough energy to kick out valence electrons from atomic hulls (that's the electrons with the weakest binding to the atom, they are important for the chemical bondings with neighbor atoms). Take higher energy electrons (like xrays) and you kick out electrons deep in the atomic hull. If you have enough high-energy photons (like in a gigantic sci-fi pewpew gun), you can put a nice hole into matter by breaking the bonds. Dissociation for the win! That happens a lot on small scale: photochemistry. Actually we all have some problems, when it doesn't happen (vitamin D production in human skin, photosynthesis etc.) Afterwards the excited atoms and free electrons will recombine in most cases. The energy that is set free, adds to the rotational and vibrational energy of the atoms: heat. But that comes after the devastating effects of dissociation. And it has (nearly) nothing to do with the transversal motion of that matter, which is described by its kinetic energy.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.11 20:01:00 - [96] Originally by: Jakaman Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Friend: put it this way, you can't cause a macroscopic object to move by hitting it with a laser beam Ive studied physics at college level too and I can say that this is wrong. The effect might be small but beams have an impact effect on macroscopic objects, ie you can actually move stuff with a laser beam but you need a friggin powerful one and a very light object to see the effect. To say that light doesnt have kinetic impact like a bullet is false. It does have it, but the effect is so small compared to the heating effect/damage that in reality you can disregard it. Still in a game where the physics are physics-lite combined with sci-fi logic there is no theoretical reason to deny lasers doing kinetic damage. It makes more sense for laser's to have thermal/kinetic damage rather than em/thermal. WTF is electromagnetic damage? EMP is used to destroy circuits by creating damaging current in them. If that current is applied to metal(armor) -> more thermal damage. Yes I agree. There is less sense in lasers doing em/th then doing th/kin damage. Electro magnetic damage: When a magnetic field moves it creates electrical currents in metals. This ofcourse heats it or overloads circuits if you apply strong magnetic fields. At the same time do electric currents create magnetic fields around them. So these two always go hand in hand. EM damage would be used by a weapon that projects strong magnetic fields for example but in the end EM damage does damage through thermal damage. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Grendelsbane	Posted - 2008.03.12 00:15:00 - [97] Quote: I've heard about this before, and laughed. How can a beam of light do any damage type that has a physical element to it? That's just nonsense. >_< You fail physics. The End.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.12 00:19:00 - [98] Originally by: Grendelsbane Quote: I've heard about this before, and laughed. How can a beam of light do any damage type that has a physical element to it? That's just nonsense. >_< You fail physics. The End. haha yeah he does fail -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Vinez	Posted - 2008.03.12 00:39:00 - [99] Just create a crystal that does higher thermal and less EM..easy fix ~
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.12 01:14:00 - [100] Stop whining ffs, amarr gets enough cookies this upcoming patch *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. Originally by: Mitnal Locked, one troll after another. Mitnal, Community Representative
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.12 01:38:00 - [101] Originally by: arbalesttom Stop whining ffs, amarr gets enough cookies this upcoming patch And I like cookies -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Riaz Qaadir	Posted - 2008.03.12 02:02:00 - [102] Edited by: Riaz Qaadir on 12/03/2008 02:04:05 The only changes I think that should be done to crystals is the balance of EM/Therm made less weighted on the longer range t1 crystals and t2 crystals. Still in favour of EM but more balanced like Barrage and Tremor are for projectiles and like Null and Spike are for Hybrids rather than heavy EM weighting as currently.
SirDanceAlot Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.17 12:47:00 - [103] Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Edited by: Riaz Qaadir on 12/03/2008 02:04:05 The only changes I think that should be done to crystals is the balance of EM/Therm made less weighted on the longer range t1 crystals and t2 crystals. Signed.
Vanessa Vale Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.17 14:23:00 - [104] Edited by: Vanessa Vale on 17/03/2008 14:25:00 Originally by: Sionide To the OP: Just forget about it. Amarr is em and therm dmg. If you get another damage type (besides drones) then get ammo like all the rest of us and have reload times. See how you like to be able to fire about 20 rounds then having reload. Do you realize the OP posted this 1 year ago? Bloody amarr necros... Here, this is what cause the original necro: Quote: Can I have explosive crystals now?
J'Mkarr Soban Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.03.17 14:35:00 - [105] Necro FTL. Do you have -any- idea how disconcerting it was seeing my name on the front after not paying attention to the forums for about 6 months? Even more worrying is that I though I posted this in October, not a year ago. I feel old :( Anyway - a year later I am now a fully specced T2 Large Beam Laser user on a Paladin. Dear lord these things pwn (against Sansha). Still need to try them out against anything else, but I'm hopeful. Although I'm now seeing the bigger problem, and I still stand by what I said of 'boost the ships, not the gunz', as if you boost the guns then everyone gets that boost, not just Amarr specced pilots. If you boost the ships, it's bringing up the disparity. Also: new Apoc sniper woo! ahem ----------------------------- "Oh, we're sorry, you had the 'NakedAmarrChicks' bit flagged in your account somehow." "Wait, why was there even a flag for that to begin with?" "..."
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.17 14:46:00 - [106] Edited by: arbalesttom on 17/03/2008 14:45:58 Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Necro FTL. Do you have -any- idea how disconcerting it was seeing my name on the front after not paying attention to the forums for about 6 months? Even more worrying is that I though I posted this in October, not a year ago. I feel old :( Anyway - a year later I am now a fully specced T2 Large Beam Laser user on a Paladin. Dear lord these things pwn (against Sansha). Still need to try them out against anything else, but I'm hopeful. Although I'm now seeing the bigger problem, and I still stand by what I said of 'boost the ships, not the gunz', as if you boost the guns then everyone gets that boost, not just Amarr specced pilots. If you boost the ships, it's bringing up the disparity. Also: new Apoc sniper woo! ahem ahem did i hear you say overpowered? *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. Originally by: Mitnal Locked, one troll after another. Mitnal, Community Representative
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.17 14:51:00 - [107] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: arbalesttom Stop whining ffs, amarr gets enough cookies this upcoming patch And I like cookies /me gives Lyria some cookies Now be a good boy/girl for the coming year! *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
J'Mkarr Soban Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.03.17 14:54:00 - [108] Originally by: arbalesttom ahem did i hear you say overpowered? Overpowered? What part? The months of training? ----------------------------- "Oh, we're sorry, you had the 'NakedAmarrChicks' bit flagged in your account somehow." "Wait, why was there even a flag for that to begin with?" "..."
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.17 14:56:00 - [109] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Originally by: arbalesttom ahem did i hear you say overpowered? Overpowered? What part? The months of training? /me hands out the sarcasmdetector to J'Mkarr *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
J'Mkarr Soban Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.03.17 15:28:00 - [110] Originally by: arbalesttom /me hands out the sarcasmdetector to J'Mkarr Just had to check. Your lack of hair disturbed me ----------------------------- "Oh, we're sorry, you had the 'NakedAmarrChicks' bit flagged in your account somehow." "Wait, why was there even a flag for that to begin with?" "..."
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.17 15:33:00 - [111] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Originally by: arbalesttom /me hands out the sarcasmdetector to J'Mkarr Just had to check. Your lack of hair disturbed me Heh, at least i can say im born with it *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
J'Mkarr Soban Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.03.17 15:57:00 - [112] Originally by: arbalesttom Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Originally by: arbalesttom /me hands out the sarcasmdetector to J'Mkarr Just had to check. Your lack of hair disturbed me Heh, at least i can say im born with it Sad thing is, I'm as bald IRL too. At 19. ----------------------------- "Oh, we're sorry, you had the 'NakedAmarrChicks' bit flagged in your account somehow." "Wait, why was there even a flag for that to begin with?" "..."
Angelic Eviaran University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.19 17:37:00 - [113] Originally by: Humpalot Sound in space? Besides, pretty sure sonic damage would equate to thermal damage and not kinetic. Im pretty sure youre wrong. It should be kintetic because its basically a shockwave.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.03.19 18:45:00 - [114] Oh for gods sakes, double bloody necro Anyway, Eve damage types are all *******s ok? So stop trying to mesh such ideas with real physics... ...ultimately it would boil down to transfer of heat, transfer of momentum, or a combination of both. There you go, thereÆs your two bloody damage types... -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Angelic Eviaran University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.19 20:12:00 - [115] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Oh for gods sakes, double bloody necro Anyway, Eve damage types are all *******s ok? So stop trying to mesh such ideas with real physics... ...ultimately it would boil down to transfer of heat, transfer of momentum, or a combination of both. There you go, thereÆs your two bloody damage types... So are we getting these damage types or not?
sdthujfg State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.19 23:33:00 - [116] Originally by: Angelic Eviaran So are we getting these damage types or not? I think not.

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