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Quartex Gallente Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.10 08:10:00 - [61] 1. Interdictors with bubbles serve a different function to old fashioned mobile bubbles and should have penalties compared to them. 2. Lone Interdictors should face gaming penalties, the same as lone haulers.If you want to lock down a system you should use bubbles on both gates. 3. If you want to move safely in 0.0 you shouldn't be there in the first place. That's why the risk/reward balance must be protected. 4. Meta gamers will find their way around everything. Macro miners, Cheating rats to prevent them engaging you in a belt whilst you mine etc. If CCP only had an hour to spend fixing stuff this weekend, that's where I'd want them to spend it! 5. Ctrl Q is a feature for some players right now. There should be a penalty for using it. Everyone is agreed, including CCP. 6. Travel alone in 0.0 and you increase the risk of dying. Use a m8, the map, the time of day you travel, ship fittings etc to reduce the risk. 7. "OK, so kill ctrl Q but give me another way to avoid teh bubble!" First read all of above, then perhaps what's needed is an ECM solution that takes up some of your slots and can fry the bubble software in a chance based fashion. (May need to fiddle with Elite Indy's to make this work). 8. Please think hard before you change the risk/reward balance in this game guys.
Reggie Stoneloader eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.10 08:13:00 - [62] Originally by: Ecco Storm Solution to bubble camps: Quit flying blind and use a scout ffs. Problem solved. I loathe this. "Don't use the logoff meta-gaming tactic to escape gate camps, it's cheating! Get a trial account alt and run him ahead of you instead!" That's baloney, too. There's no way to know what's on the other side of a gate. The map doesn't update fast enough and a static, stationary camp can exploit that weakness in the database to become invisible. Gates are the problem. They're seams in the game world, and they're obvious. If we could scout through them with a probe or module just to get a list of the objects within 20km of the destination gate, that would be an in-game, sanctioned tactic to dodge and escape a camp reliably with the proper expense of effort. How hard are the gate campers working, after all? Go to a known chokepoint, of which there are hundreds, park on the gate and wait for it to flash, then push the "pwn" button and the target's hosed. No need to study the map through a few different data filters, no need to use an alt scout (although it's an option), no need to do anything but eat a sandwich, chat with your corp and wait for free money and kills to come to you.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.03.10 08:38:00 - [63] Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader Originally by: Ecco Storm Solution to bubble camps: Quit flying blind and use a scout ffs. Problem solved. I loathe this. "Don't use the logoff meta-gaming tactic to escape gate camps, it's cheating! Get a trial account alt and run him ahead of you instead!" That's baloney, too. There's no way to know what's on the other side of a gate. The map doesn't update fast enough and a static, stationary camp can exploit that weakness in the database to become invisible. Gates are the problem. They're seams in the game world, and they're obvious. If we could scout through them with a probe or module just to get a list of the objects within 20km of the destination gate, that would be an in-game, sanctioned tactic to dodge and escape a camp reliably with the proper expense of effort. How hard are the gate campers working, after all? Go to a known chokepoint, of which there are hundreds, park on the gate and wait for it to flash, then push the "pwn" button and the target's hosed. No need to study the map through a few different data filters, no need to use an alt scout (although it's an option), no need to do anything but eat a sandwich, chat with your corp and wait for free money and kills to come to you. Good point imo. All the chest beaters ramble on about how meta gaming can prevent you from being a gate camp and bubble victim but never mention what is really going on in the other side of the gate. Dozens of ships sitting there basically playing "whack-a-mole" with the spawns coming through. You beat your chests and talk about game balance but where is the balance when someone has to go through several meta gaming steps {some of which require a second acct} to assure that a gate is safe enough to pass through? Meanwhile, the "gankers" don't have to do much of anything but pick up loot cans. I thought this was suppose to be a game of "hardcore skilled" players but I honestly haven't seen much of that in PvP. Just a bunch of people dropping bubbles and killing spawns 35 versus 1 or 2 at a gate. That being said, I do agree log off is lame. However, I understand why people do it if they can get away with it when you consider the limp PvP in this game.
R3dSh1ft Caldari FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.10 11:24:00 - [64] log out in bubble should = aggro timer then you just need 6 accounts to do a decent bubble camp rather than 5 :P ______________________________________
R3dSh1ft Caldari FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.10 11:26:00 - [65] "There's no way to know what's on the other side of a gate. The map doesn't update fast enough and a static, stationary camp can exploit that weakness in the database to become invisible" Just shows what noobs know about this game. The map used to show up to the second counts of people in system. This was changed to a 30-minute average because it was too easy to get around camps. Why should you in your tech1 hauler be able to get past 10 people who want to secure their space because you are too dumb to find another route? ______________________________________
Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.10 11:27:00 - [66] Originally by: ghosttr All I see here are one-sided suggestions to make a gankers job easier and nothing that attempts to tackle fixing the reason people log. CCP has to put in something so its balanced, and sorry for you guys but that means that other people that play the game differently should get as much say as you. I can agree that logging in a bubble is a bad thing and that needs to be stopped. But to be fair you have to give the people that are logging some legitimate way to get out, and that means almost every ship should have an ample chance of escaping unless they try to run past the blockade created by the bubble. Or to avoid the bubble altogether. I can understand wanting a way to stop targets escaping inside of the bubble, but i can also understand that those targets log out because there is no other option. They have hit the 'point of no return' and really dont have any course of action besides to log. To be fair we need a solution that will allow people to go back to where they came from, or something that will show where a bubble is on the map so people an avoid them. If you make a change it should address the issue of people logging off for the gankers, but should also address the need to log off for the carebear. You really upset me. Seriously. Are you thick or do you genuinely believe the ** that you are spewing? I operate solo 90% of the time, and I have people log off on me. Do you realise how difficult it is to operate solo in 0.0 these days? Do you understand that Warp Disrupt Probes are quite big and I waste nearly all of my cargo hold on them because I rarely ever actually kill anything because it logs off. "i can also understand that those targets log out because there is no other option".. there is another option, which you, and every other quake kiddy playing cannot understand. This is a tactical multiplayer game in which teamwork is rewarded, if you sent in a friend in an interceptor ahead (or even throwaway noobscouts as permitted by CCP...) you could have decided not to jump in. "If you make a change it should address the issue of people logging off for the gankers, but should also address the need to log off for the carebear" Gankers? You are a tit. Seriously. Your entire alliance are full of incompetant PVPers and the only way you get kills is by fighting 10v1 and I make a thread and you make me out to be a ganker? Hello mate but once again I must inform you, I fly my sabre solo ALL THE BLOODY TIME. So how is it I am ganker? Why should it even be balanced? There's already numerous ways to avoid the gankers fixed location. You're just not smart enough to play EVE the way it was intended, and have to resort to these cheap metagaming tactics to escape when you ** up.
Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.10 11:37:00 - [67] Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader How hard are the gate campers working, after all? Go to a known chokepoint, of which there are hundreds, park on the gate and wait for it to flash, then push the "pwn" button and the target's hosed. No need to study the map through a few different data filters, no need to use an alt scout (although it's an option), no need to do anything but eat a sandwich, chat with your corp and wait for free money and kills to come to you. What is wrong with you people? You are all not understanding NOT EVERYONE WHO FLIES INTERDICTORS ARE CAMPING GATES WITH 100 SHIPS. Get it through your heads that not every Interdictor pilot has a 50 man gang waiting with him. Get it through your head not all Interdictor activity happens at chokepoints. Get it through your head not all Interdictor activity happens at bloody gates even. I wish the carebears (yeah I'm calling most of you carebears) would stop replying to this thread as it is clear they have no idea what PvP can entail for an interdictor pilot and the only experience you've had with it is obviously logging off after jumping to a gatecamp you were too stupid to check allliance/intel channels for anyways. You are the kind of people in EVE who are reaping rewards for using exploits and think you're top-** for it. I've got news for you. Not only are you not top-, you ruin the imersiveness of the game. It's really not difficult to make friends to help you bust through camps, but then again, if you're a low-life, cheating son of a *** it probably is.
FarScape III Journey On Squad Amen Anera	Posted - 2007.03.10 11:54:00 - [68] 1st of all, I would never do it and never have, because it would dishonor Me, My Corp & My Alliance. You can remind them what they are doing to their rep if you want but it should be obvious. I do not care what others do, it is just a game even though I like to RP a little. When they log off they only warp like 2 AU away and all you have to do is set out a 5au probe and you got them. But there is something they can do to still get away after but I'm not telling. :) So CCP still needs to fix this or give us the ability to defend against it, in RL every time someone out does a military the others start to inventing a way to fight back. Personally I just keep my rep good and I'm happy. What others want to do is their choice and they will pay for that choice one way or the other.
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.03.10 11:57:00 - [69] Originally by: Xendie wont work as people log in to their other character on the same account and then they dissapear instantly Stop spreading rumours from 2 years ago. This doesn't work and never has. -- .sig apathy ftw
Mr Mozzie Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.03.10 12:00:00 - [70] Jeez, you guys are being a bit hard on ghosttr. As far as I can tell, he is trying to say that if logoffski goes, then there needs to be something to prevent interdictors from being an Iwin tactic. This is a valid point. Having said that, IMO if logoffski is banned so people couldn't rely on it, people would probably just change tactics. In any case the effect of removing logoffski on the balance of the game should be carefully thought out. And from what I have seen CCP is doing this.
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.03.10 12:07:00 - [71] Originally by: Mr Mozzie In any case the effect of removing logoffski on the balance of the game should be carefully thought out. And from what I have seen CCP is doing this. Uhm, putting in logoffski is what unbalanced the game. Getting it out will make things work like normal again. Then you can start thinking about balance. -- .sig apathy ftw
Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.10 12:12:00 - [72] Originally by: prsr Originally by: Xendie wont work as people log in to their other character on the same account and then they dissapear instantly Stop spreading rumours from 2 years ago. This doesn't work and never has. STFU it is still broken. This still happens. I aggress a freighter, he realises he cannot fight me off with his alt in Sleipnir, so he logs both accounts off AFTER DECLOAKING AND BEING SCRAMBLED. 30 seconds later he disappears, not warps. Nowhere to be found on scanner. GM done nothing, so obviously something to that effect still works. Originally by: Mr Mozzie Jeez, you guys are being a bit hard on ghosttr. The fool deserves it. His attitude is what ruins PvP in 0.0 for me as many people feel if they make a mistake they deserve a second-chance. Jump into my solo interdictor in your hauler full of stuff? Hmmn maybe I should had an escort? OH WELL BETTER LOG OFF. Originally by: Mr Mozzie As far as I can tell, he is trying to say that if logoffski goes, then there needs to be something to prevent interdictors from being an Iwin tactic. This is a valid point. If logoffski goes all is balanaced, all you need on a BS to escape a small camp is a large smartbomb, ECM burst, and stabs, maybe a nano or two with of course an MWD. NOT SO HARD. Originally by: Mr Mozzie Having said that, IMO if logoffski is banned so people couldn't rely on it, people would probably just change tactics. You think maybe they would use fair in-game tactics then? Oh well. We can't have that now. CAN WE? Originally by: Mr Mozzie In any case the effect of removing logoffski on the balance of the game should be carefully thought out. And from what I have seen CCP is doing this. CCP are unlikely to remove this because of the subscribers that might leave if they cannot solo live in 0.0 or lowsec or run around ganking things trying to mine without the option of immediate escape if you mess up and jump into a blocade. CCP say they don't like it but when have they ever said they are trying things? Solutions are available from other MMOs, and the playerbase has suggested many excellent ideas to counter logoffski YEARS AGO. CCP hasn't implimented anything decent that isn't exploitable, so please, how are CCP even trying? Originally by: FarScape III When they log off they only warp like 2 AU away and all you have to do is set out a 5au probe and you got them. But there is something they can do to still get away after but I'm not telling. :) Well done Sherlock. That's exactly the point. They can easily log in another character on the same account or whatever the exploit is (I'm not actually sure) and disappear instantly. I see it happen all the time.
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.03.10 12:29:00 - [73] Originally by: Awox Originally by: prsr Stop spreading rumours from 2 years ago. This doesn't work and never has. STFU it is still broken. This still happens. I aggress a freighter, he realises he cannot fight me off with his alt in Sleipnir, so he logs both accounts off AFTER DECLOAKING AND BEING SCRAMBLED. 30 seconds later he disappears, not warps. Nowhere to be found on scanner. GM done nothing, so obviously something to that effect still works. How does this prove the proposed mechanic to disappear? It doesn't. You are talking about the effect, your target disappearing even though you have aggressed it before you think he logged off. Originally by: Awox They can easily log in another character on the same account or whatever the exploit is (I'm not actually sure) and disappear instantly. I see it happen all the time. See... You even agree... -- .sig apathy ftw
Kahor Minmatar Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.10 12:29:00 - [74] About the probe thing,it just takes the logger to know the game mechanics, and unless you manage to probe him in under 2minute and pop him within that time, there is nothing you can do (if he logged before being aggroed), coupled with the fact that aggro reset after each jump (another nice bug/feature of CCP), loggers hardly get killed. When you log while scrambled, you don't warp away. When you log while bubbled, you warp away. That's the only thing CCP need to consider, any other kind of talk is totaly rubish to begin with. ---------------- An eye for an eye make a whole world blind. snip, do not evade the word filter with your sig. Email [email protected] for more information. -HornFrog
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.03.10 12:32:00 - [75] Originally by: Zaqar Originally by: BentMyWookie Easy solution to logoffski: Same solution most other MMOs make to logoffski. Logoff Timer. You hit CTRL Q, it brings up a prompt "Are you sure you want to log off?" click Yes 2-minute countdown bar appears on-screen and you cannot move, undock, dock, activate modules or open any windows until the timer expires and the client closes. The UI will essentially freeze with the only exception being a "Cancel" button on the bar which will abort the logoff process. Yes. Additionally, being targetted or fired upon would reset the 2 min timer. Can anyone offer a reason why this wouldnt work? maybe a 30 sec timer, then you emergency warp and 2 min offline timer/15 min aggro timer begins... this would allow people to log off when they need to but would stop ASSHATS doing it at gates... also you CAN NOT CLOAK AND LOG OH MY ******* GOD NO. That and take cloaks/smart bombs off titans... There you go CCP we fixed your crappy game for you.
Lucky Lynn	Posted - 2007.03.10 13:02:00 - [76] I don't mean to upset anyone here. But Logging on/off is nothing new. A little bit of history.
Raquel Smith Caldari Freedom-Technologies	Posted - 2007.03.10 13:21:00 - [77] Originally by: Awox Except when the 5 targets you find in 0.0 over the course of an hour logout making training for them completely useless. Can I have my SP back please? Stop crying. Adapt or quit.
Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.10 13:53:00 - [78] Originally by: Raquel Smith Originally by: Awox Except when the 5 targets you find in 0.0 over the course of an hour logout making training for them completely useless. Can I have my SP back please? Stop crying. Adapt or quit. Stupid comment. How can you adapt to this? I tried getting a covert ops mate. This didn't work as people just logged in and out to move ships, or if they knew how the exploit which CCP wont even investigate works.. their ships just disappeared immediately without showing up on scans at all after it leaves the bubble.
Raquel Smith Caldari Freedom-Technologies	Posted - 2007.03.10 15:09:00 - [79] Originally by: Awox Originally by: Raquel Smith Originally by: Awox Except when the 5 targets you find in 0.0 over the course of an hour logout making training for them completely useless. Can I have my SP back please? Stop crying. Adapt or quit. Stupid comment. How can you adapt to this? I tried getting a covert ops mate. This didn't work as people just logged in and out to move ships, or if they knew how the exploit which CCP wont even investigate works.. their ships just disappeared immediately without showing up on scans at all after it leaves the bubble. Kill people elsewhere, or perhaps on the other side of the gate.
Aslann Gallente Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.10 15:23:00 - [80] Originally by: prsr Originally by: Xendie wont work as people log in to their other character on the same account and then they dissapear instantly Stop spreading rumours from 2 years ago. This doesn't work and never has. Then explain plz how a scrambled freighter disappears from space (without being able to dock or jump a gate)?
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.10 15:45:00 - [81] Originally by: Mr Mozzie As far as I can tell, he is trying to say that if logoffski goes, then there needs to be something to prevent interdictors from being an Iwin tactic. This is a valid point. No, it's not. Interdictors and bubbles are not balanced with logging off in mind, thus preventing logoffskis does not require a subsequent rebalance of interdictors or bubbles. - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.03.10 23:19:00 - [82] Originally by: Raquel Smith Originally by: Awox Except when the 5 targets you find in 0.0 over the course of an hour logout making training for them completely useless. Can I have my SP back please? Stop crying. Adapt or quit. I agree. Logoff is nothing but Darwinism at work. For example, In a typical 75 man-0.0 gate camp, when someone logs off on them, 30 of the campers will adapt and continue to spawn pop and play Space Invaders on easy mode while the other 45 will either go to the forum and cry about it and/or quit the game all together.
Misconte Caldari A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A	Posted - 2007.03.10 23:47:00 - [83] Originally by: ghosttr All I see here are one-sided suggestions to make a gankers job easier and nothing that attempts to tackle fixing the reason people log. CCP has to put in something so its balanced, and sorry for you guys but that means that other people that play the game differently should get as much say as you. I can agree that logging in a bubble is a bad thing and that needs to be stopped. But to be fair you have to give the people that are logging some legitimate way to get out, and that means almost every ship should have an ample chance of escaping unless they try to run past the blockade created by the bubble. Or to avoid the bubble altogether. I can understand wanting a way to stop targets escaping inside of the bubble, but i can also understand that those targets log out because there is no other option. They have hit the 'point of no return' and really dont have any course of action besides to log. To be fair we need a solution that will allow people to go back to where they came from, or something that will show where a bubble is on the map so people an avoid them. If you make a change it should address the issue of people logging off for the gankers, but should also address the need to log off for the carebear. Pointless, people like that would still log off everytime the feel like, to save their ship or whatever they r carrying. people who log off at gatecamps or bubbles are CHEATERS. It so irrelevant thinking of giving an alternative way to counterattack a bubble to this cheater so they would stop cheating , oh well maybe they would stop logging off at bubbles and start somewhere else maybe in a Belt while they r ratting or during a fleet battle Loggingoff is an exploit and must be seen as it is, we shall not look behind the reason who can push someone to do it, those reasons are irrelevant and out of the game.
Reggie Stoneloader eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.11 00:52:00 - [84] I love the way this gets spun back and forth. When people are logging out, it's always the poor solo interdictor pilot who finds tasty haulers and can't kill them because they log. When the discussion turns to ways for those weak ships to avoid the inescapable bubble, the suggestions are always "Watch the map for blobs" and "No, else how could alliance fleets defend their space?" This is not the sort of discussion that can go anywhere good on the forum. Keep the flames rising. For my part, I have no sympathy whatsoever for people who go looking for targets and are stymied. If you're in a roaming gang with no objectives other than to destroy other people's ships, then there's not one scrap of justification for altering the game to facilitate your bloodthirsty endeavors. None. I don't care if you claim the space or if you've lived there for a long time, you don't have a target in mind and you're just out to collect killmails and corpses becasue you're bored of the uneventfully safe space you normally inhabit. If a fleet or adversary is important enough that it's a matter of your security to contain them, then making them all log off in the same spot is as good as a victory. You know their ship types, their exact location and their identities. They can't play EvE again until they log back on and face you. Due to the vagaries of logging on, they'll like as not be facing you one at a time like lambs to the slaughter. Get your fleet there, put some good music on and start owning them. If they aren't worth waiting for, or if they're just a disposable alt, then all you're really losing when they log is the killmail and a little loot. Grow up. I'd support a way to find loggers in your sovereignty, though. Don't let their ships vanish from space if they've got negative standings to the sovereign alliance. That way military fleets wouldn't be able to log off in tactical positions behind enemy lines and be completely safe. That's total crap. It's been said before. Like nano ships and instas and login traps and account sharing and complex farming and multi-account mining and gate camping and cloaked afk alts and lag traps and every other cheap tactic that bestows an advantage, logoffski is possible, and it's tolerated by CCP, and that makes it a valid tactic. If you're not using it, you're losing to the guys who do.
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.03.11 01:11:00 - [85] I dont know if logging another char on helps... but ive seen a deimos run a small camp and make it... his friend fled at the same time... The 3 of us (crow, vaga, celestis) followed and jumped after him... we saw him decloaking and i thought aligning... he was scrammed and just sat there... then at about half structure (we had little fire power) he just vanished... we were like wtf? at first we didnt know where the wreck was... then we thought he might have jumped.. but no... 15kms from the gate... and people in the other system didnt see him... His corp mate was still in system, i asked if he had logged and the reply i got was "no, he has a jumpdrive" so i said... you mean he did log? and he said "no. he jumped to jita." I cant remember the names but i did have them in my bio for a while... they were some bob pets in querious... so is this a result of relogging or is the loggoff timer just buggered (i thought it was 2 minutes... not 30 seconds until you dissapear?)
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.03.11 01:13:00 - [86] "If you're not using it, you're losing to the guys who do." Agree. In fact, I explain to all the noobs in the noob corp channels when I am on my alts on how to use log off so that they don't lose their ships to gate camps and bubbles. I figure it is just as valid a tactic as all the meta gaming garbage in this game.
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.03.11 01:20:00 - [87] Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader Condensed Stupidity. I disagree with everything you say. And I don't like you. Please leave.
XiticiX Gallente Kudzu Collective	Posted - 2007.03.11 03:42:00 - [88] If someone can currently offer up ways to avoid a bubble after jumping through a gate, i'd be more than happy to hear it. MWD aren't fast enough to turn around and go back through the gate. Stealth is useless with 10+ gankers and their drones. You aren't fast enough, can't use MWD or afterburner, and you decloak when you get close to anything. If bubbles had a strength attribute (small med and large offer more strength) and stabs were used to combat that, then the mechanic would work fine. More stabs = more chance of escaping a bubble. Larger bubble, more chance of catching some prey. It's a simple concept. As for the logoffski's, it's a lame tactic, but it's used because there is no alternative. Of course, if people are stupid and don't outfit a pipe-runner, then they'll still use it so it still needs to be dealt with. I agree with the countdown timer (aka WoW) option in this case. But honestly - there should be a way to combat anything and everything in the game. Bubbles included. Heck - Stealth ships too, but that's another post. ~~~ This is my sig. Do you like it? ~~~
Vandervecken Smith Athanasius Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.11 03:59:00 - [89] The basic issue with logging off is that CCP doesn't want to overly penalize those who suffer a genuine connection loss. However, as long as CCP is nice on people who genuinely lose connection, log-off guys will be able to simulate a connection loss. If CTRL-Q doesn't work, pulling the plug on your router will. If you abuse a privilege (TAPLAP, chance of survival from log-off), it will eventually be taken away. So CCP has a real problem. If they have to make it that logging off doesn't work, they'll have to make it so a connection loss doesn't work. In that case people with iffy connections are going to be up **** creak. Lots of unhappy people who don't abuse the mechanism. What would you do?
Nim9i5	Posted - 2007.03.11 04:03:00 - [90] maybe instead you should stop trying to gank noobs coming through in single ships and go get a fair fight. Seems like razor alliance and a few others just want easy kills at 0.0-empire gates. Dont like logging off either but seems like your reason is just to gank noobs, people don't log off in a fair fight

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