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Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.09 08:27:00 - [1] Except when the 5 targets you find in 0.0 over the course of an hour logout making training for them completely useless. Can I have my SP back please?
Noluck Ned FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 08:31:00 - [2] I hear you and I feel your pain. Yesterday I had one do that to me too. Why travel solo in a hauler in 0.0 anyway? F4T4L - Recruitment
Identity Hidden Amarr I Fought Piranhas	Posted - 2007.03.09 08:44:00 - [3] Originally by: Noluck Ned I hear you and I feel your pain. Yesterday I had one do that to me too. Why travel solo in a hauler in 0.0 anyway? Because you can just logoffski at first sign of trouble. WD CCP. You really did include the whole teamwork element.
Znaei Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 08:58:00 - [4] Afaik CCP is well aware of the problem and doesnt like it any more than we do. Last i heard they are trying to find a solution to this problem. Not so hard! Air gets in between.
Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.09 09:05:00 - [5] Originally by: Znaei Afaik CCP is well aware of the problem and doesnt like it any more than we do. Last i heard they are trying to find a solution to this problem. Are they really? They seem more interested in keep subscriptions to me.
HatePeace LoveWar Amarr FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 10:00:00 - [6] Originally by: Znaei Afaik CCP is well aware of the problem and doesnt like it any more than we do. Last i heard they are trying to find a solution to this problem. Not that concerned, since bubble logging has been around for months.
Noluck Ned FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 10:07:00 - [7] In last nights case I had not even put a bubble up yet. I jumped into a system, I loaded up just in time to see the sole other occupant disappear from local. THEN I noticed that there was a hauler on my overview at 15km. I tried to lock him but he warped away. I cursed cruel fate. F4T4L - Recruitment
Aelita Minmatar 47R Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 10:08:00 - [8] Originally by: Awox Except when the 5 targets you find in 0.0 over the course of an hour logout making training for them completely useless. Can I have my SP back please? Boy easy solution to this :) take your friend in coverops, skills and reckon probe launcher. They will be surprised when they look at clonig bay after logoffsky :)
The Slayer Caldari The Black Rabbits Fatal Persuasion	Posted - 2007.03.09 10:12:00 - [9] Unfortunately your solution involves taking someone else with you every time you wanna go solo hunting, which sorta defeats the purpose, no?
Solbright	Posted - 2007.03.09 10:41:00 - [10] Usual solution is to blow the **** out of the target before it enters warp. For small targets that would be an insta-pop.
Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.09 10:50:00 - [11] Originally by: Aelita Originally by: Awox Except when the 5 targets you find in 0.0 over the course of an hour logout making training for them completely useless. Can I have my SP back please? Boy easy solution to this :) take your friend in coverops, skills and reckon probe launcher. They will be surprised when they look at clonig bay after logoffsky :) Yeah because that will be exciting for my mate.. I shouldn't need another friend (read another subscription) just to catch people who log off to save themselves when jumping into a bubble. Oh, and before any of you idiots pipe up about gate camps. It's not like I fly with 50 people gangs. I usually fly my dictor solo.
Suzy Creamcheesz	Posted - 2007.03.09 11:30:00 - [12] Originally by: Aelita Originally by: Awox Except when the 5 targets you find in 0.0 over the course of an hour logout making training for them completely useless. Can I have my SP back please? Boy easy solution to this :) take your friend in coverops, skills and reckon probe launcher. They will be surprised when they look at clonig bay after logoffsky :) i thought that if you log off just after jumping and before you decloac, you will not have an agro timer even if you get shot because getting shot while logged off doesnt count for agro. so that would only work if they already have an agro timer from something else. i havent really tested this so please tell me if i am wrong.
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.09 11:39:00 - [13] Word is that CCP are going to reassign Ctrl-Q to 'confirm self destruct' for a day and test out how that goes. Blog
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.09 11:45:00 - [14] I heard CTRL-Q in a bubble in the test server is now fixed. I better check it out if its true, and if so.... it will become the most anticipated feature in TQ ever! --
Hei'di Tempt Fate Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 12:36:00 - [15] Maybe more a "Privateer-Problem" but using Logoffski after jumping into a system should also be reviewed. The only good thing is to know that u ruined his/her day. Cheryl Winder my dear, next time u will not survive the 30 seconds in ur bustard. My neutron blasters will be a pain in ur **. Du hast Lust in der Privateer Alliance mitzuwirken? Dann melde dich doch einfach mal bei uns**!
Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.09 12:42:00 - [16] Edited by: Awox on 09/03/2007 12:39:12 Originally by: Aelita Originally by: Awox Except when the 5 targets you find in 0.0 over the course of an hour logout making training for them completely useless. Can I have my SP back please? Boy easy solution to this :) take your friend in coverops, skills and reckon probe launcher. They will be surprised when they look at clonig bay after logoffsky :) I just had a guy jump a freighter and sleipner into my camp, he try to warp the freighter away so I scramble it and MWD away from sleipnir. Now, my Huginn buddy is keeping the Sleipnir off me and the freighter is now in my bubble so I MWD away thinking freighter can't go anyway.. But it logs. It doesn't emergancy warp, it just disappears. WTF. [11:46:09] William Hart > logoffski because russians are cool [11:47:41] EVE System > Channel changed to PX-IHN Local Channel [11:49:51] William Hart > how did you log off freighter? [11:49:56] William Hart > I aggressed before he logged off [11:50:03] ___________ > as usual [11:50:19] ___________ > it is you think you agressed [11:50:26] William Hart > I scrambled it mate [11:50:36] ___________ > and what? [11:50:58] ___________ > teach game mechaniks [11:51:05] ___________ > *learn [11:51:26] ___________ > bobits do it regularyy [11:51:38] William Hart > Do I look like a bobit cheaper? [11:53:00] William Hart > did you log on another character? [11:53:10] ___________ > ) [11:53:26] William Hart > now you log out until you have backup [11:53:30] ___________ > i look isane to fight 1vs3? [11:53:30] William Hart > to escort a freighter properly [11:53:40] William Hart > lame. [11:53:46] ___________ > k [11:53:57] ___________ > be happy [11:54:07] ___________ > now you now it [11:55:58] William Hart > I aggressed before you logged [11:56:06] William Hart > you used exploit of some kind to disappear freighter from scans [11:56:07] William Hart > for sure So tell me. How useful is a covert ops if they use whatever exploit the guy used? (I blanked out his name btw)
Nikita Fontaine Caldari g guild	Posted - 2007.03.09 12:46:00 - [17] I have experienced lately that people are even logging their noob corp alt scouts to save them from the bubble! I mean seriously come on... ----------------------------------------------- Great minds think alike but fools seldom differ Directors are like buttons they hold things together.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.09 13:35:00 - [18] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 09/03/2007 13:31:47 Originally by: Identity Hidden Originally by: Noluck Ned I hear you and I feel your pain. Yesterday I had one do that to me too. Why travel solo in a hauler in 0.0 anyway? Because you can just logoffski at first sign of trouble. WD CCP. You really did include the whole teamwork element. Ahem. I solo haul in 0.0 on a regular basis, and I (almost) never die and I never logoffski. Aim your flames at the logoffskis not the valid professions they are tainting plz - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
ghosttr Amarr The Silent Rage FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 13:41:00 - [19] I think that the only fair answer is to give people a legitimate way to escape. Ive been on both side of the bubble and I know it is a great way to catch anyone coming to the gate, but from the other side it can be impassable barricade even for the best of pilots. Maybe change the mechanics a little bit so that trying to pass through a bubble will get you ganked, but allows you to turn and retreat to where you came from. That way it will still work in a blockade and anyone that tries to pass through the blockade will be easy pickings. I also think that the 'blockade runner' transport ships should be upgraded so that they can actually run a blockade. Change the point bonus to an invulnerability to being scrammed by bubbles, and any points must be added with wcs. So they will actually be able to run a blockade if they come across one. HELP FIX THE DRONE REGIONS!!!
Rakeris Brethren Empire	Posted - 2007.03.09 13:47:00 - [20] Originally by: ghosttr I think that the only fair answer is to give people a legitimate way to escape. Ive been on both side of the bubble and I know it is a great way to catch anyone coming to the gate, but from the other side it can be impassable barricade even for the best of pilots. Maybe change the mechanics a little bit so that trying to pass through a bubble will get you ganked, but allows you to turn and retreat to where you came from. That way it will still work in a blockade and anyone that tries to pass through the blockade will be easy pickings. I also think that the 'blockade runner' transport ships should be upgraded so that they can actually run a blockade. Change the point bonus to an invulnerability to being scrammed by bubbles, and any points must be added with wcs. So they will actually be able to run a blockade if they come across one. I have to agree, the only reason people log off to save their ship is because there is no other way...if there wasother options I bet you would see log offs at camps decrease by a ton. ---------- I gave up on sigs. As all the beatings are starting to hurt and leave nasty bruises.
Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.09 14:24:00 - [21] Originally by: Rakeris I have to agree, the only reason people log off to save their ship is because there is no other way...if there wasother options I bet you would see log offs at camps decrease by a ton. DIAF. MWD back to the gate, unless they have a fast-lock Huginn they wont get you. Hell, if you don't have a scout that is talented enough to break out of huge camps then you deserve to have your stupid ass ganked.
Alan Maher Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.09 14:27:00 - [22] There are already way too many ways to escape. We need more ability to set up a freaking wall at actually catch people. Exspecially the meta-gamers who logoff ect to escape
BentMyWookie	Posted - 2007.03.09 14:59:00 - [23] First post on the official forums.. Easy solution to logoffski: Same solution most other MMOs make to logoffski. Logoff Timer. You hit CTRL Q, it brings up a prompt "Are you sure you want to log off?" click Yes 2-minute countdown bar appears on-screen and you cannot move, undock, dock, activate modules or open any windows until the timer expires and the client closes. The UI will essentially freeze with the only exception being a "Cancel" button on the bar which will abort the logoff process. Also, players who get randomly disconnected from the server should not immediately warp out. This causes alliances to lose more Titans than any amount of PvP. So what if it means that if you're ratting in 0.0 and you get disconnected, the rat kills you because you weren't there to turn on your shield booster.. you shouldn't have been flying anything you couldn't afford to lose to begin with.. but losing a capital ship because the server is dying due to some asshat dropping millions of bookmarks at a station elsewhere in the same system (and you couldn't log back in to save your ship because you had to wait in line behind the dozens of other blob pilots) is just plain bad game mechanics, period.
ghosttr Amarr The Silent Rage FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 15:03:00 - [24] It should be a blockade, but not be an impassable gank sphere. If you jump into a bubble you should have ample distance to get to the gate shortly, and if you warp into one you should be a few kms away from the edge so you can turn around and go back to where you came from. A bubble should activate the aggro timer so if someone logs in it they dont warp away, but if they decide to turn and run they should be able to do so. HELP FIX THE DRONE REGIONS!!!
Ockk	Posted - 2007.03.09 15:26:00 - [25] It should be a moat. With alligators... that are on fire!!
Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.09 15:52:00 - [26] Originally by: ghosttr It should be a blockade, but not be an impassable gank sphere. If you jump into a bubble you should have ample distance to get to the gate shortly, and if you warp into one you should be a few kms away from the edge so you can turn around and go back to where you came from. A bubble should activate the aggro timer so if someone logs in it they dont warp away, but if they decide to turn and run they should be able to do so. Impossible gank sphere? If you fit MWD on small ships you can almost always escape. You can also wait out the sphere and take your chances, they don't last very long. Another tactic is to offer to pay for passage. I'd take this always if offered. If someone decides to turn and run and haven't fit an MWD they should die. They shouldn't just log out to save themselves. If they cannot fit an MWD they should have a friend who can run up ahead. People who do stuff like logout to save their ship+pods are really getting to me. They then go on to brag about how good they are other times. Yet they have to logout to escape one Interdictor sphere. It's pathetic.
Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.09 15:55:00 - [27] Originally by: Crumplecorn Aim your flames at the logoffskis not the valid professions they are tainting plz I didn't aim my flames at solo haulers. I know it's very possible to do, myself I have a prowler and have never died to a camp. I've warped into large bubble camps and burned to to the gate no problem at all. I was implying that people solo haul in freighters and transport ships with no stabs/nanos/mwd because the better, easier "tactic" is to put expanders in lows, passive shield tank in midslots, and log off at the first sign of trouble. Maximum capacity, hard to kill, and to keep your hauler safe all you need to do is log on a different character on the same account you just logged off of. With a GM recently telling me it was impossible to check aggression/gamelogs of me scrambling someone someone logging out of the game (about 10 seconds difference) I am seriously losing faith in CCP. Can we have PvP in 0.0 or not? WTF CCP.
ghosttr Amarr The Silent Rage FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 16:08:00 - [28] Originally by: Awox Originally by: ghosttr It should be a blockade, but not be an impassable gank sphere. If you jump into a bubble you should have ample distance to get to the gate shortly, and if you warp into one you should be a few kms away from the edge so you can turn around and go back to where you came from. A bubble should activate the aggro timer so if someone logs in it they dont warp away, but if they decide to turn and run they should be able to do so. Impossible gank sphere? If you fit MWD on small ships you can almost always escape. You can also wait out the sphere and take your chances, they don't last very long. Another tactic is to offer to pay for passage. I'd take this always if offered. If someone decides to turn and run and haven't fit an MWD they should die. They shouldn't just log out to save themselves. If they cannot fit an MWD they should have a friend who can run up ahead. People who do stuff like logout to save their ship+pods are really getting to me. They then go on to brag about how good they are other times. Yet they have to logout to escape one Interdictor sphere. It's pathetic. A blockade is there to prevent passage of ships and pilots, if someone doesnt want to try to run the blockade they should be able to leave and find another route. If they want to try and run the blockade logoffskis shouldnt work. But any pilot should be able to turn around and leave rather than engage, not just friggys, shuttles and noobships. People log off because they cant escape any other way, to prevent people from logging off they should be given a legitimate route of escape with any ship (ok well maybe not freightors) but if they choose to attempt to run the blockade they shouldn't be able to escape if they are going down. HELP FIX THE DRONE REGIONS!!!
Zaqar	Posted - 2007.03.09 16:29:00 - [29] Originally by: BentMyWookie Easy solution to logoffski: Same solution most other MMOs make to logoffski. Logoff Timer. You hit CTRL Q, it brings up a prompt "Are you sure you want to log off?" click Yes 2-minute countdown bar appears on-screen and you cannot move, undock, dock, activate modules or open any windows until the timer expires and the client closes. The UI will essentially freeze with the only exception being a "Cancel" button on the bar which will abort the logoff process. Yes. Additionally, being targetted or fired upon would reset the 2 min timer. Can anyone offer a reason why this wouldnt work?
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.09 16:34:00 - [30] Originally by: ghosttr I think that the only fair answer is to give people a legitimate way to escape. No. If you warp into a bubble, you ****** up, and that's it. Now, if you are lucky, MWDing to the gate or out of the bubble might save you, but the idea is that you shouldn't land yourself in a bubble anyway. In this way they function as a blockade and you don't get killed. No get-out-of-jail-free cards for the lazy/stupid/suicidal. - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.09 16:42:00 - [31] Originally by: Awox Log Name and shame tbh. ----- $Forum + $Bob + $Devs == $ForumPostCount+++++;
ghosttr Amarr The Silent Rage FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 16:46:00 - [32] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: ghosttr I think that the only fair answer is to give people a legitimate way to escape. No. If you warp into a bubble, you ****** up, and that's it. Now, if you are lucky, MWDing to the gate or out of the bubble might save you, but the idea is that you shouldn't land yourself in a bubble anyway. In this way they function as a blockade and you don't get killed. No get-out-of-jail-free cards for the lazy/stupid/suicidal. The thing that is good about eve is there is so many different ways to play, however you just want things to be better for yourself rather than thinking of how it effects other players, and trying to come up with a balance that is fair for everybody. A solution to logging needs off needs to be balanced, this involves thinking about why people will log in the first place, and making things so that people wont want to log. Not shifting things in favor of the gankers. HELP FIX THE DRONE REGIONS!!!
Eternal Fury Shadow Of The Light R i s e	Posted - 2007.03.09 16:46:00 - [33] Edited by: Eternal Fury on 09/03/2007 16:42:36 I don't know about you folks, but those I fly with LOVE it when people logoff in a fight. Drop a scan probe, and off goes the CovOps Frig. Warp to said Frig, blow up logged off player. If you go to the right regions of 0.0, and team up a pair of CovOps Frigs and a pair of Interdictors, along wiht some good pvpers.. You will be amazed at how many people log off, and get blown up because we can probe them out. This is a good thing, as it puts isk in our wallets to help finance the fights against those with honor and skill who DON'T log off. Then we have some good fights :) Eternal Fury Shadow Of The Light .SOL.
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.03.09 16:50:00 - [34] Originally by: ghosttr I think that the only fair answer is to give people a legitimate way to escape. Ive been on both side of the bubble and I know it is a great way to catch anyone coming to the gate, but from the other side it can be impassable barricade even for the best of pilots. There are legitimate ways to escape already. I jumped into a 50+ man hostile gatecamp with large bubble just a few days ago with a caracal and was able to MWD back through the gate and jump before my shield was even down. Now, this could just mean the people camping the gate were nubs of course. -- .sig apathy ftw
Gaogan Gallente Solar Storm	Posted - 2007.03.09 16:52:00 - [35] Originally by: Crumplecorn No. If you warp into a bubble, you ****** up, and that's it. Now, if you are lucky, MWDing to the gate or out of the bubble might save you, but the idea is that you shouldn't land yourself in a bubble anyway. In this way they function as a blockade and you don't get killed. No get-out-of-jail-free cards for the lazy/stupid/suicidal. Agreed. The entire point of a bubble is that it sets a trap to gank people foolish enough to stumble into it. A fast ship may be able to get out of it. Biggger/more guns to kill the people who laid the trap will get you out of it. A scout will keep you from falling into it. Ctrl-q is NOT meant to get you out once you fall into a trap. Get it into your head: 0.0 is supposed to be risky. What risk is there if you can freely travel around and just ctrl-q at the first sign of trouble? None. Risk = chance of running into a camp and being outgunned. You minimize that risk by traveling in groups and having a cov ops scout. These are the mechanics of the game as designed, not as abused.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.09 16:54:00 - [36] Originally by: ghosttr Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: ghosttr I think that the only fair answer is to give people a legitimate way to escape. No. If you warp into a bubble, you ****** up, and that's it. Now, if you are lucky, MWDing to the gate or out of the bubble might save you, but the idea is that you shouldn't land yourself in a bubble anyway. In this way they function as a blockade and you don't get killed. No get-out-of-jail-free cards for the lazy/stupid/suicidal. The thing that is good about eve is there is so many different ways to play, however you just want things to be better for yourself rather than thinking of how it effects other players, and trying to come up with a balance that is fair for everybody. A solution to logging needs off needs to be balanced, this involves thinking about why people will log in the first place, and making things so that people wont want to log. Not shifting things in favor of the gankers. In a word, no. No, I am not merely looking for a solution that benefits me, I am looking for the best solution overall, and the solution is not removing the scenarios which people will cheat to get out of. Everyone has their own opinion on what is fair and balanced. People who log have decided for themselves that they don't like the balance of the game, and are exploiting it to get out of the balance. Do we want these people determining the balance for the game? No. - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
ee21k	Posted - 2007.03.09 16:57:00 - [37] Originally by: Crumplecorn In a word, no. No, I am not merely looking for a solution that benefits me, I am looking for the best solution overall, and the solution is not removing the scenarios which people will cheat to get out of. Everyone has their own opinion on what is fair and balanced. People who log have decided for themselves that they don't like the balance of the game, and are exploiting it to get out of the balance. Do we want these people determining the balance for the game? No. holy crap. valid point. well done sir.
Ling Xiao	Posted - 2007.03.09 17:02:00 - [38] Edited by: Ling Xiao on 09/03/2007 16:59:19 Originally by: HatePeace LoveWar Originally by: Znaei Afaik CCP is well aware of the problem and doesnt like it any more than we do. Last i heard they are trying to find a solution to this problem. Not that concerned, since bubble logging has been around for years. I fixed your quote for you.
ghosttr Amarr The Silent Rage FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 17:19:00 - [39] Originally by: ee21k Originally by: Crumplecorn In a word, no. No, I am not merely looking for a solution that benefits me, I am looking for the best solution overall, and the solution is not removing the scenarios which people will cheat to get out of. Everyone has their own opinion on what is fair and balanced. People who log have decided for themselves that they don't like the balance of the game, and are exploiting it to get out of the balance. Do we want these people determining the balance for the game? No. holy crap. valid point. well done sir. Having to cheat to get out of something may be a sign of imbalance anyways, so dont think bubbles are going to be balanced just by removing logoffski. So yes, you have to think about the players that are logging off and how an imbalance in warp bubbles could be causing them to log to get away, so they should get a voice in how to fix this. HELP FIX THE DRONE REGIONS!!!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.09 17:24:00 - [40] Originally by: ghosttr Originally by: ee21k Originally by: Crumplecorn In a word, no. No, I am not merely looking for a solution that benefits me, I am looking for the best solution overall, and the solution is not removing the scenarios which people will cheat to get out of. Everyone has their own opinion on what is fair and balanced. People who log have decided for themselves that they don't like the balance of the game, and are exploiting it to get out of the balance. Do we want these people determining the balance for the game? No. holy crap. valid point. well done sir. Having to cheat to get out of something may be a sign of imbalance anyways, so dont think bubbles are going to be balanced just by removing logoffski. So yes, you have to think about the players that are logging off and how an imbalance in warp bubbles could be causing them to log to get away, so they should get a voice in how to fix this. As I already pointed out, you don't have to cheat to get out. You have to be competent to not get in in the first place. Warp bubbles aren't going to be balanced by removing logoffski, they already are balanced, though nothing is really balanced against cheating. What causes people to log off? They are cheating bastards who will use any opportunity to get ahead whether it is part of the game or not. They should be instabanned and certainly not listened to. There are over 100,000 charactes in this game, and a whole lot of them get by without cheating, despite the myriad unfairness and imbalance, both intended and unintended, which permeates Eve. The question of whether bubbles, or anything else for that matter, is balanced is irrelevant. These people are cheaters. This is an issue with the person. The only issue with the game is that there is a mechanism by which people can cheat. Anything else is a discussion of balance for anothe topic. - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
ghosttr Amarr The Silent Rage FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 18:10:00 - [41] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: ghosttr Originally by: ee21k Originally by: Crumplecorn In a word, no. No, I am not merely looking for a solution that benefits me, I am looking for the best solution overall, and the solution is not removing the scenarios which people will cheat to get out of. Everyone has their own opinion on what is fair and balanced. People who log have decided for themselves that they don't like the balance of the game, and are exploiting it to get out of the balance. Do we want these people determining the balance for the game? No. holy crap. valid point. well done sir. Having to cheat to get out of something may be a sign of imbalance anyways, so dont think bubbles are going to be balanced just by removing logoffski. So yes, you have to think about the players that are logging off and how an imbalance in warp bubbles could be causing them to log to get away, so they should get a voice in how to fix this. As I already pointed out, you don't have to cheat to get out. You have to be competent to not get in in the first place. Warp bubbles aren't going to be balanced by removing logoffski, they already are balanced, though nothing is really balanced against cheating. What causes people to log off? They are cheating bastards who will use any opportunity to get ahead whether it is part of the game or not. They should be instabanned and certainly not listened to. There are over 100,000 charactes in this game, and a whole lot of them get by without cheating, despite the myriad unfairness and imbalance, both intended and unintended, which permeates Eve. The question of whether bubbles, or anything else for that matter, is balanced is irrelevant. These people are cheaters. This is an issue with the person. The only issue with the game is that there is a mechanism by which people can cheat. Anything else is a discussion of balance for anothe topic. Other players might just play the game differently than you and their voices need to be heard to. I bet most of these people wouldn't 'cheat' if they didn't have a reason to. I will admit that i have logged a few times to save my newly t2 fitted battleship from getting popped at a camp, why do you ask? because there was no other way of getting out, i couldn't have possibly made it out in time to go back and wait it out. I didn't do this because i have a desire to 'cheat', to be honest ive never logged from a fair fight, even if i know i was going down, Ive been on both sides of the bubble, and even though i would like it to catch every noobship and shuttle that logs off, but i have to think of it from the other guys point of view. If he jumps in and sees a gank squad, and has no way out, and know way of knowing if the bubble is there beforehand, his only viable option may be to log to save himself. A blockade is supposed to be something that prevents movement, if you need to gank someone to keep them from passing then you will, some people will put up a blockade in hopes that people will try to run it, and in turn get ganked. A bubble should play a blockade role, and should be used first and foremost to effectively stop travel. Getting kills should just be a bonus that comes with the job. If people have a legitimate way of escaping a blockade, not getting through, just getting back to where they came from I would bet there wouldnt be half of the logoffskis that there are and the blockade would still perform its primary function of preventing movement. So if someone warps in they should be just outside of the bubble, and if they jump in through a gate they should be within a reasonable range to jump back through anyone that wants to pass the blocakde should have to face it full on. That means there ship will stay if the decide to logoffski inside the bubble. HELP FIX THE DRONE REGIONS!!!
LVSOCOM Minmatar Vale Heavy Industries SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 18:24:00 - [42] Solution/s: 1) Logging out does not "Emergency Warp" you out of a bubble. You are stuck there. 2) Logging a character with agression, then attempting to log in another character on the same account will fail until the agression/criminal timer has lapsed. IE: Char1 and Char2 reside on the same account, Char1 warps into bubble and logs. Char2 attempts to log in but receives a message something like "You cannot log into another character while you have one engaged in combat already." Problem/s solved.
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.03.09 18:31:00 - [43] To fix: 1) Dictor spheres stop you at the edge. This means that small ships (pods, shuttles, intys) can turn right around and IMMEDIATELY warp. Pull them inward a few clicks. 2) Logging works in a bubble and makes you warp. Stop that. 3) Logging off without aggression makes you disappear in a minute, even if you're caught and scrambled after the fact. This is crap. If you log at a gate in an unstabbed raven and get caught by the lone inty there, you should die for your cowardice. 4) Dictor sphere timer. Cooldown timer? Autorepeat timer that less than the bubble's timer? Yeah, crap. 5) Bubbles on the same grid as another bubble or a deployable one don't work. Crap again. Originally by: Splagada SEED ME DADDY Down with alts! One character per account per IP!
Lorth Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.03.09 18:51:00 - [44] People need to stop making the excuse that its ok to log in a bubble, because there is "no way out" The best way to avoid a bubble camp is to not get caught in one in the first place, with a ship thats to big the MWD back. Which is frankly pretty darn easy. And at that, simply accept the fact that this game comes with an inherant risk, and sometimes one can die. Just get over the idea that its not possible to live through every single situation every time. Frankly if it were that way, it would be extreemly unfair for everyone else.
Black Napallm Beam me op	Posted - 2007.03.09 19:11:00 - [45] yui
ghosttr Amarr The Silent Rage FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 19:22:00 - [46] All I see here are one-sided suggestions to make a gankers job easier and nothing that attempts to tackle fixing the reason people log. CCP has to put in something so its balanced, and sorry for you guys but that means that other people that play the game differently should get as much say as you. I can agree that logging in a bubble is a bad thing and that needs to be stopped. But to be fair you have to give the people that are logging some legitimate way to get out, and that means almost every ship should have an ample chance of escaping unless they try to run past the blockade created by the bubble. Or to avoid the bubble altogether. I can understand wanting a way to stop targets escaping inside of the bubble, but i can also understand that those targets log out because there is no other option. They have hit the 'point of no return' and really dont have any course of action besides to log. To be fair we need a solution that will allow people to go back to where they came from, or something that will show where a bubble is on the map so people an avoid them. If you make a change it should address the issue of people logging off for the gankers, but should also address the need to log off for the carebear. HELP FIX THE DRONE REGIONS!!!
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.03.09 19:27:00 - [47] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 09/03/2007 19:24:16 Originally by: ghosttr Other players might just play the game differently than you and their voices need to be heard to. I bet most of these people wouldn't 'cheat' if they didn't have a reason to. I will admit that i have logged a few times to save my newly t2 fitted battleship from getting popped at a camp, why do you ask? because there was no other way of getting out, i couldn't have possibly made it out in time to go back and wait it out. Logoff excuses usually seem to boil down to this. There's no past. It's like you were just sitting, innocently minding your own business in a HiSec station and suddenly were magically transported into a 5-on-1 bubble camp in your new battleship instead of something fast or cloaked. You didn't choose to go into 0.0, you didn't choose your route, you didn't choose to go solo, and you certainly didn't choose to be in a new battleship that you couldn't afford to lose. It was all just completely random. What an unfair game this is! Quote: ive never logged from a fair fight I ellowell in your general direction. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.03.09 19:29:00 - [48] Originally by: ghosttr I will admit that i have logged a few times to save my newly t2 fitted battleship from getting popped at a camp, why do you ask? because there was no other way of getting out, i couldn't have possibly made it out in time to go back and wait it out. You haven't answered your own question. Your answer is just a longwinded version of "it's unfair" which is quite obviously not true since the rules of this game are the same for everyone and there are plenty of tools to help you evade getting trapped with 20+ hostiles next to you. People that logoff just don't want to loose their ship and can't withstand the temptation to evade that loss. There's a million ways to try and rationalize it afterwards but that doesn't change a thing. The only thing that is unfair is that the people that logoff don't get instabanned and the people that were camping didn't get the lootcans that are rightfully theirs. -- .sig apathy ftw
ghosttr Amarr The Silent Rage FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 19:40:00 - [49] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 09/03/2007 19:24:16 Originally by: ghosttr Other players might just play the game differently than you and their voices need to be heard to. I bet most of these people wouldn't 'cheat' if they didn't have a reason to. I will admit that i have logged a few times to save my newly t2 fitted battleship from getting popped at a camp, why do you ask? because there was no other way of getting out, i couldn't have possibly made it out in time to go back and wait it out. Logoff excuses usually seem to boil down to this. There's no past. It's like you were just sitting, innocently minding your own business in a HiSec station and suddenly were magically transported into a 5-on-1 bubble camp in your new battleship instead of something fast or cloaked. You didn't choose to go into 0.0, you didn't choose your route, you didn't choose to go solo, and you certainly didn't choose to be in a new battleship that you couldn't afford to lose. It was all just completely random. What an unfair game this is! I of course was headed out to 0.0, but the fact is that its balanced towards the ganker. Of course i could have opened fire and popped a few and went down in flames, but the fact is I like my ship, and am still in the same ship today, many months later. The fact is that if you hit a bubble youd just better bend over, or you can log. And I think 95% of the eve community would log in that given situation. Now if there was room enough for my battleship to retreat to the gate and fight another day instead of logging i would have done so, people log because of the lack any other feasible option. Making it so you when you jump in you are 5-10km from the gate, or that if you warp into a bubble you are just outside of it would give people a decent chance of escape. And you could effectively control traffic through the gate, because if they wanted through they would have to fight through your camp. HELP FIX THE DRONE REGIONS!!!
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.03.09 23:24:00 - [50] Originally by: ghosttr I of course was headed out to 0.0, but the fact is that its balanced towards the ganker. Rules in 0.0 are the same for everyone. You can choose to let your enemies roam around freely if you think thats a good idea but why would you expect them to do the same? Originally by: ghosttr Of course i could have opened fire and popped a few and went down in flames Thats got to be the worst bubble avoiding strategy i've heard of. Why not use the same tools everyone else uses to avoid camps when possible? Originally by: ghosttr but the fact is I like my ship, and am still in the same ship today, many months later. The fact is that if you hit a bubble youd just better bend over, or you can log. Or, you can be smart and fit ships so you can escape. Either that or accept that your enemy has the upper hand and has succesfully blocked your way through. You act like you have some kind of automatic right to be able to fly wherever you want. Originally by: ghosttr And I think 95% of the eve community would log in that given situation. Although it seems like that sometimes, I would say about 60/70% of lone pilots that get caught in bubbles after jumping(/warping) wil log off. Originally by: ghosttr Now if there was room enough for my battleship to retreat to the gate and fight another day instead of logging i would have done so, people log because of the lack any other feasible option. Just repeating something doesn't make it so. Even in a BS (which shouldn't be flying solo anymore then a capital ship, esp. through 0.0) there are ways to escape bubble camps without logging off. -- .sig apathy ftw
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.09 23:47:00 - [51] Originally by: ghosttr Other players might just play the game differently than you and their voices need to be heard to. I bet most of these people wouldn't 'cheat' if they didn't have a reason to. I will admit that i have logged a few times to save my newly t2 fitted battleship from getting popped at a camp, why do you ask? because there was no other way of getting out, i couldn't have possibly made it out in time to go back and wait it out. I didn't do this because i have a desire to 'cheat', to be honest ive never logged from a fair fight, even if i know i was going down, Ive been on both sides of the bubble, and even though i would like it to catch every noobship and shuttle that logs off, but i have to think of it from the other guys point of view. If he jumps in and sees a gank squad, and has no way out, and know way of knowing if the bubble is there beforehand, his only viable option may be to log to save himself. A blockade is supposed to be something that prevents movement, if you need to gank someone to keep them from passing then you will, some people will put up a blockade in hopes that people will try to run it, and in turn get ganked. A bubble should play a blockade role, and should be used first and foremost to effectively stop travel. Getting kills should just be a bonus that comes with the job. If people have a legitimate way of escaping a blockade, not getting through, just getting back to where they came from I would bet there wouldnt be half of the logoffskis that there are and the blockade would still perform its primary function of preventing movement. So if someone warps in they should be just outside of the bubble, and if they jump in through a gate they should be within a reasonable range to jump back through anyone that wants to pass the blocakde should have to face it full on. That means there ship will stay if the decide to logoffski inside the bubble. Why these continual references to people playing the game differently to me? How one chooses to play the game has no influence on whether a given game mechanic is balanced or not, and as I said the balance of the game mechanics is irrelevant, as the opinion of anyone willing to cheat to avoid the losing end of the risk/reward balance (hereafter referred to as you) should not be listened to. You logged to save your battleship? Then you don't deserve to have that ship, by the rules of the game it should be dead. There are no-win situations in this game. Either avoid them or live with it. As I pointed out, there is imbalance and unfairness throughout Eve, some intended some unintended, and many people play the game as it is, as opposed to avoiding the rules when it doesn't suit them. Cheaters should never determine the direction of the game. They are worse than whiners, and most whiners shouldn't be listened to. You say you've never logged from a 'fair' fight? Eve isn't about fair. And you certainly don't get to judge what is fair and cut out the bits you deem unfair. You keep rattling on about escaping blockades. *The game is the way it is. This part of the game works just fine. You cheat* to get around it because you don't like it.** I don't know what's sadder, that you can't avoid them, or that you'll cheat when you screw up to deny your enemies their rightful kill. - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.09 23:55:00 - [52] Originally by: ghosttr All I see here are one-sided suggestions to make a gankers job easier and nothing that attempts to tackle fixing the reason people log. CCP has to put in something so its balanced, and sorry for you guys but that means that other people that play the game differently should get as much say as you. People who play the game differently? Is this a reference to carebears or cheaters? I don't think anybody cares what the latter group thinks. Originally by: ghosttr I can agree that logging in a bubble is a bad thing and that needs to be stopped. But to be fair you have to give the people that are logging some legitimate way to get out, and that means almost every ship should have an ample chance of escaping unless they try to run past the blockade created by the bubble. Or to avoid the bubble altogether. No they shouldn't Bubbles are supposed to be virtually inescapable once you (note the emphasis on you) have made the mistake of entering one. Nobody has to give anyone who logs to escape anything other than a swift smack in the head with the banstick. I'll tell you why people cheat to avoid bubbles. It's quite simple. It's possible to cheat to avoid bubbles. There are few genuine cheats in this game, this is one of them. If there was one to get around piracy in belts or getting ganked by privateers or any other gameplay some group doesn't like, they'd be used too. Not because that gameplay is broken. Because it's what cheaters do. Originally by: ghosttr I can understand wanting a way to stop targets escaping inside of the bubble, but i can also understand that those targets log out because there is no other option. They have hit the 'point of no return' and really dont have any course of action besides to log. To be fair we need a solution that will allow people to go back to where they came from, or something that will show where a bubble is on the map so people an avoid them. No. You are correct, they have hit the 'point of no return'. There is no way out. No we do not need to add one. What we need to do is stop people cheating to get out. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that you should have a chance to survive at any point in time. If you land in a bubble, your chance to survive has already passed, unless you cheat. Originally by: ghosttr If you make a change it should address the issue of people logging off for the gankers, but should also address the need to log off for the carebear. There is no need to log off. If there was, absolutely everyone would do it. It is a choice you make to bypass the rules of the game. There is no justification, even if bubbles were horribly broken and unbalanced (which they are not) it would still not justify cheating to get around them. - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Ecco Storm	Posted - 2007.03.10 00:20:00 - [53] Originally by: ghosttr The thing that is good about eve is there is so many different ways to play, however you just want things to be better for yourself rather than thinking of how it effects other players, and trying to come up with a balance that is fair for everybody. A solution to logging needs off needs to be balanced, this involves thinking about why people will log in the first place, and making things so that people wont want to log. Not shifting things in favor of the gankers. Solution to bubble camps: Quit flying blind and use a scout ffs. Problem solved.
Aleyna Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.03.10 00:23:00 - [54] OMG, im in an Awox (william hart and the band) thread with Lorth in it!!!! awesome... oh and yea, i think CCP said they're fixing it but till they do my Sabrerific and Flycatchwhat are staying docked... oh and AWOXY!!!! wheres the wench ;-) Lorth, hows EVE CS style i am alpha and omega, the beginning and the end
Supay Caldari The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2007.03.10 01:26:00 - [55] As a longtime dictor pilot, I absolutely loathe people logging out. The other night I stupidly ran into an IAC gatecamp. Goodbye snake set, dictor, Domination gear and all my expensive cargo. My fault, but I went for it and tried to get out without logging. I failed and died. Been roaming Catch all night and guess what. Every single IAC and United Legion person who landed in my bubble logged out. Every. Single. Time. Kind of makes me sad after dying with honour, only to be cheated again and again
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.10 01:42:00 - [56] Originally by: Supay As a longtime dictor pilot, I absolutely loathe people logging out. The other night I stupidly ran into an IAC gatecamp. Goodbye snake set, dictor, Domination gear and all my expensive cargo. My fault, but I went for it and tried to get out without logging. I failed and died. Been roaming Catch all night and guess what. Every single IAC and United Legion person who landed in my bubble logged out. Every. Single. Time. Kind of makes me sad after dying with honour, only to be cheated again and again TBH the complete assets of the cheaters should be given to people like you. - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Selnix Gallente Master Miners Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.10 04:43:00 - [57] ghosttr, I'll be nice and assume that you've trained for quite some time on at least some skill tree towards gaining the ability to use some specific module or ship that was of great interest to you. Perhaps the T2 fittings on that battleship of yours? How about we start a thread asking for things to be changed so that we will always fall a couple of km outside of the range of all offensive modules you have, so we can choose to warp out if we want. Give the same ability to all of the NPCs as well, since they shouldn't have to fall prey to you if they don't want either and they have long been subject to a strict anti-logoff policy (excluding those pesky ones that warp around between belts). Seriously though, I trained for MONTHS to be able to fly my Eris. Months of training that could have been dedicated to learning any number of other skills had I so chosen. How do you see it as fair to suggest that the ship I trained so long to use become nothing more than a defenseless replacement for the deployable bubble that someone could be skilled up to deploy in a matter of days? Just tonight we destroyed an enemy battleship whose pilot immediately logged out to save his pod, from within the interdictor bubble. He then logged in repeatedly until he finally managed to log out quickly enough to land in a safespot upon login instead of back within our bubble. We got to watch time after time as he warped in to gate in a pod and emergency warped back out, all the while an interdiction sphere was active. Even our interceptors with well over 1000mm scan resolution could not lock it to get a warp scramble running. How can this not be cheating? Interdictors have been nerfed more than enough already without the changes you want to see. The bubbles that once lasted four minutes are now only active for two. At the same time, the refire rate of the launcher dictates that you waste probes that are rather expensive to produce compared to ammuntion or other consumable charges by leaving the launcher on autofire where the probes will overlap for easily a quarter of their duration. The alternative is to set the launcher for single fire and watch for a minute or longer as it stolidly refuses to engage due to the reactivation timer, all the while the previous bubble has already expired and the vessel can not fulfill the only role for which it is designed. Bubbles have a warp strength. Yes, this means that if you fit a few warp core stabs on that tech II industrial of yours that has the built in +2 warp strength, you can fly straight out of an interdiction sphere. What kind of impenetrable wall is that? Even a tech one cruiser can get out of a bubble that way. Bubbles only catch ships that have not already initiated warp. If you warp toward a gate that an interdictor is bubbling before they launch the bubble, you'll go right through. If you start warp cloaked before they fire a sphere that easily encompasses your vessel, you'll still warp unless people get sufficient points on you before you enter warp. The Interdictor class vessels are not capable of doing what their role description suggests... The breaching of Enemy Warp Tunnels. Fire an interdiction probe between a ship and its destination in a safespot and watch it fly on by. I've tested over and over on the test server, the probes just refuse to pull you out of warp. Perhaps if it WAS possible to catch people in the middle of nowhere, people would choose to camp the gates a little less often. I believe that the list above are things that need to be fixed, not features. That an entire fleet can be rendered impotent by someone hammering Ctrl+Q is very annoying. I have more respect for the people that blob in tech I EW ships than I do for the ones that choose to log in their tech II ones simply because they feel that the rules should only apply when they are the one holding the gun and not the other way around.
Xendie Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.03.10 05:43:00 - [58] Originally by: Aelita Originally by: Awox Except when the 5 targets you find in 0.0 over the course of an hour logout making training for them completely useless. Can I have my SP back please? Boy easy solution to this :) take your friend in coverops, skills and reckon probe launcher. They will be surprised when they look at clonig bay after logoffsky :) wont work as people log in to their other character on the same account and then they dissapear instantly before you manage to complete your first scan Originally by: "darth solo" bad men came, bad men didnt go home, bad men left containers.
Invidious Malinigvious	Posted - 2007.03.10 05:52:00 - [59] Originally by: ghosttr It should be a blockade, but not be an impassable gank sphere. If you jump into a bubble you should have ample distance to get to the gate shortly, and if you warp into one you should be a few kms away from the edge so you can turn around and go back to where you came from. A bubble should activate the aggro timer so if someone logs in it they dont warp away, but if they decide to turn and run they should be able to do so. Hi, this isnt WOW or some other game. This is Eve. Eve has NON-CONSENTUAL PVP! I am as tired of people like you as I am of the loggers (although I doubt it is mutualy exclusive).
eeeweeezeee Macabre Votum Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2007.03.10 07:21:00 - [60] interdictors are great. of course, this is coming from a happy pilot that just used an interdictor to off 2 carriers. but aside from that, interdictors need help. I have been flying interdictors since almost when they came out, and they weren't always this bad. in my opinion, the change to half the duration and half the size for the dictor spheres really hurts. so does the reactivation delay. in order to deploy bubbles without a gap, you must leave the launcher continuously running now. before, you could just drop one, deactivate the launcher, and drop another when the first one expired. now, you MUST waste your bubbles constantly dropping them to achieve constant coverage. I really don't see the point of the new headache causing feature that interdictors are given.
Quartex Gallente Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.10 08:10:00 - [61] 1. Interdictors with bubbles serve a different function to old fashioned mobile bubbles and should have penalties compared to them. 2. Lone Interdictors should face gaming penalties, the same as lone haulers.If you want to lock down a system you should use bubbles on both gates. 3. If you want to move safely in 0.0 you shouldn't be there in the first place. That's why the risk/reward balance must be protected. 4. Meta gamers will find their way around everything. Macro miners, Cheating rats to prevent them engaging you in a belt whilst you mine etc. If CCP only had an hour to spend fixing stuff this weekend, that's where I'd want them to spend it! 5. Ctrl Q is a feature for some players right now. There should be a penalty for using it. Everyone is agreed, including CCP. 6. Travel alone in 0.0 and you increase the risk of dying. Use a m8, the map, the time of day you travel, ship fittings etc to reduce the risk. 7. "OK, so kill ctrl Q but give me another way to avoid teh bubble!" First read all of above, then perhaps what's needed is an ECM solution that takes up some of your slots and can fry the bubble software in a chance based fashion. (May need to fiddle with Elite Indy's to make this work). 8. Please think hard before you change the risk/reward balance in this game guys.
Reggie Stoneloader eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.10 08:13:00 - [62] Originally by: Ecco Storm Solution to bubble camps: Quit flying blind and use a scout ffs. Problem solved. I loathe this. "Don't use the logoff meta-gaming tactic to escape gate camps, it's cheating! Get a trial account alt and run him ahead of you instead!" That's baloney, too. There's no way to know what's on the other side of a gate. The map doesn't update fast enough and a static, stationary camp can exploit that weakness in the database to become invisible. Gates are the problem. They're seams in the game world, and they're obvious. If we could scout through them with a probe or module just to get a list of the objects within 20km of the destination gate, that would be an in-game, sanctioned tactic to dodge and escape a camp reliably with the proper expense of effort. How hard are the gate campers working, after all? Go to a known chokepoint, of which there are hundreds, park on the gate and wait for it to flash, then push the "pwn" button and the target's hosed. No need to study the map through a few different data filters, no need to use an alt scout (although it's an option), no need to do anything but eat a sandwich, chat with your corp and wait for free money and kills to come to you.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.03.10 08:38:00 - [63] Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader Originally by: Ecco Storm Solution to bubble camps: Quit flying blind and use a scout ffs. Problem solved. I loathe this. "Don't use the logoff meta-gaming tactic to escape gate camps, it's cheating! Get a trial account alt and run him ahead of you instead!" That's baloney, too. There's no way to know what's on the other side of a gate. The map doesn't update fast enough and a static, stationary camp can exploit that weakness in the database to become invisible. Gates are the problem. They're seams in the game world, and they're obvious. If we could scout through them with a probe or module just to get a list of the objects within 20km of the destination gate, that would be an in-game, sanctioned tactic to dodge and escape a camp reliably with the proper expense of effort. How hard are the gate campers working, after all? Go to a known chokepoint, of which there are hundreds, park on the gate and wait for it to flash, then push the "pwn" button and the target's hosed. No need to study the map through a few different data filters, no need to use an alt scout (although it's an option), no need to do anything but eat a sandwich, chat with your corp and wait for free money and kills to come to you. Good point imo. All the chest beaters ramble on about how meta gaming can prevent you from being a gate camp and bubble victim but never mention what is really going on in the other side of the gate. Dozens of ships sitting there basically playing "whack-a-mole" with the spawns coming through. You beat your chests and talk about game balance but where is the balance when someone has to go through several meta gaming steps {some of which require a second acct} to assure that a gate is safe enough to pass through? Meanwhile, the "gankers" don't have to do much of anything but pick up loot cans. I thought this was suppose to be a game of "hardcore skilled" players but I honestly haven't seen much of that in PvP. Just a bunch of people dropping bubbles and killing spawns 35 versus 1 or 2 at a gate. That being said, I do agree log off is lame. However, I understand why people do it if they can get away with it when you consider the limp PvP in this game.
R3dSh1ft Caldari FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.10 11:24:00 - [64] log out in bubble should = aggro timer then you just need 6 accounts to do a decent bubble camp rather than 5 :P ______________________________________
R3dSh1ft Caldari FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.10 11:26:00 - [65] "There's no way to know what's on the other side of a gate. The map doesn't update fast enough and a static, stationary camp can exploit that weakness in the database to become invisible" Just shows what noobs know about this game. The map used to show up to the second counts of people in system. This was changed to a 30-minute average because it was too easy to get around camps. Why should you in your tech1 hauler be able to get past 10 people who want to secure their space because you are too dumb to find another route? ______________________________________
Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.10 11:27:00 - [66] Originally by: ghosttr All I see here are one-sided suggestions to make a gankers job easier and nothing that attempts to tackle fixing the reason people log. CCP has to put in something so its balanced, and sorry for you guys but that means that other people that play the game differently should get as much say as you. I can agree that logging in a bubble is a bad thing and that needs to be stopped. But to be fair you have to give the people that are logging some legitimate way to get out, and that means almost every ship should have an ample chance of escaping unless they try to run past the blockade created by the bubble. Or to avoid the bubble altogether. I can understand wanting a way to stop targets escaping inside of the bubble, but i can also understand that those targets log out because there is no other option. They have hit the 'point of no return' and really dont have any course of action besides to log. To be fair we need a solution that will allow people to go back to where they came from, or something that will show where a bubble is on the map so people an avoid them. If you make a change it should address the issue of people logging off for the gankers, but should also address the need to log off for the carebear. You really upset me. Seriously. Are you thick or do you genuinely believe the ** that you are spewing? I operate solo 90% of the time, and I have people log off on me. Do you realise how difficult it is to operate solo in 0.0 these days? Do you understand that Warp Disrupt Probes are quite big and I waste nearly all of my cargo hold on them because I rarely ever actually kill anything because it logs off. "i can also understand that those targets log out because there is no other option".. there is another option, which you, and every other quake kiddy playing cannot understand. This is a tactical multiplayer game in which teamwork is rewarded, if you sent in a friend in an interceptor ahead (or even throwaway noobscouts as permitted by CCP...) you could have decided not to jump in. "If you make a change it should address the issue of people logging off for the gankers, but should also address the need to log off for the carebear" Gankers? You are a tit. Seriously. Your entire alliance are full of incompetant PVPers and the only way you get kills is by fighting 10v1 and I make a thread and you make me out to be a ganker? Hello mate but once again I must inform you, I fly my sabre solo ALL THE BLOODY TIME. So how is it I am ganker? Why should it even be balanced? There's already numerous ways to avoid the gankers fixed location. You're just not smart enough to play EVE the way it was intended, and have to resort to these cheap metagaming tactics to escape when you ** up.
Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.10 11:37:00 - [67] Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader How hard are the gate campers working, after all? Go to a known chokepoint, of which there are hundreds, park on the gate and wait for it to flash, then push the "pwn" button and the target's hosed. No need to study the map through a few different data filters, no need to use an alt scout (although it's an option), no need to do anything but eat a sandwich, chat with your corp and wait for free money and kills to come to you. What is wrong with you people? You are all not understanding NOT EVERYONE WHO FLIES INTERDICTORS ARE CAMPING GATES WITH 100 SHIPS. Get it through your heads that not every Interdictor pilot has a 50 man gang waiting with him. Get it through your head not all Interdictor activity happens at chokepoints. Get it through your head not all Interdictor activity happens at bloody gates even. I wish the carebears (yeah I'm calling most of you carebears) would stop replying to this thread as it is clear they have no idea what PvP can entail for an interdictor pilot and the only experience you've had with it is obviously logging off after jumping to a gatecamp you were too stupid to check allliance/intel channels for anyways. You are the kind of people in EVE who are reaping rewards for using exploits and think you're top-** for it. I've got news for you. Not only are you not top-, you ruin the imersiveness of the game. It's really not difficult to make friends to help you bust through camps, but then again, if you're a low-life, cheating son of a *** it probably is.
FarScape III Journey On Squad Amen Anera	Posted - 2007.03.10 11:54:00 - [68] 1st of all, I would never do it and never have, because it would dishonor Me, My Corp & My Alliance. You can remind them what they are doing to their rep if you want but it should be obvious. I do not care what others do, it is just a game even though I like to RP a little. When they log off they only warp like 2 AU away and all you have to do is set out a 5au probe and you got them. But there is something they can do to still get away after but I'm not telling. :) So CCP still needs to fix this or give us the ability to defend against it, in RL every time someone out does a military the others start to inventing a way to fight back. Personally I just keep my rep good and I'm happy. What others want to do is their choice and they will pay for that choice one way or the other.
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.03.10 11:57:00 - [69] Originally by: Xendie wont work as people log in to their other character on the same account and then they dissapear instantly Stop spreading rumours from 2 years ago. This doesn't work and never has. -- .sig apathy ftw
Mr Mozzie Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.03.10 12:00:00 - [70] Jeez, you guys are being a bit hard on ghosttr. As far as I can tell, he is trying to say that if logoffski goes, then there needs to be something to prevent interdictors from being an Iwin tactic. This is a valid point. Having said that, IMO if logoffski is banned so people couldn't rely on it, people would probably just change tactics. In any case the effect of removing logoffski on the balance of the game should be carefully thought out. And from what I have seen CCP is doing this.
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.03.10 12:07:00 - [71] Originally by: Mr Mozzie In any case the effect of removing logoffski on the balance of the game should be carefully thought out. And from what I have seen CCP is doing this. Uhm, putting in logoffski is what unbalanced the game. Getting it out will make things work like normal again. Then you can start thinking about balance. -- .sig apathy ftw
Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.10 12:12:00 - [72] Originally by: prsr Originally by: Xendie wont work as people log in to their other character on the same account and then they dissapear instantly Stop spreading rumours from 2 years ago. This doesn't work and never has. STFU it is still broken. This still happens. I aggress a freighter, he realises he cannot fight me off with his alt in Sleipnir, so he logs both accounts off AFTER DECLOAKING AND BEING SCRAMBLED. 30 seconds later he disappears, not warps. Nowhere to be found on scanner. GM done nothing, so obviously something to that effect still works. Originally by: Mr Mozzie Jeez, you guys are being a bit hard on ghosttr. The fool deserves it. His attitude is what ruins PvP in 0.0 for me as many people feel if they make a mistake they deserve a second-chance. Jump into my solo interdictor in your hauler full of stuff? Hmmn maybe I should had an escort? OH WELL BETTER LOG OFF. Originally by: Mr Mozzie As far as I can tell, he is trying to say that if logoffski goes, then there needs to be something to prevent interdictors from being an Iwin tactic. This is a valid point. If logoffski goes all is balanaced, all you need on a BS to escape a small camp is a large smartbomb, ECM burst, and stabs, maybe a nano or two with of course an MWD. NOT SO HARD. Originally by: Mr Mozzie Having said that, IMO if logoffski is banned so people couldn't rely on it, people would probably just change tactics. You think maybe they would use fair in-game tactics then? Oh well. We can't have that now. CAN WE? Originally by: Mr Mozzie In any case the effect of removing logoffski on the balance of the game should be carefully thought out. And from what I have seen CCP is doing this. CCP are unlikely to remove this because of the subscribers that might leave if they cannot solo live in 0.0 or lowsec or run around ganking things trying to mine without the option of immediate escape if you mess up and jump into a blocade. CCP say they don't like it but when have they ever said they are trying things? Solutions are available from other MMOs, and the playerbase has suggested many excellent ideas to counter logoffski YEARS AGO. CCP hasn't implimented anything decent that isn't exploitable, so please, how are CCP even trying? Originally by: FarScape III When they log off they only warp like 2 AU away and all you have to do is set out a 5au probe and you got them. But there is something they can do to still get away after but I'm not telling. :) Well done Sherlock. That's exactly the point. They can easily log in another character on the same account or whatever the exploit is (I'm not actually sure) and disappear instantly. I see it happen all the time.
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.03.10 12:29:00 - [73] Originally by: Awox Originally by: prsr Stop spreading rumours from 2 years ago. This doesn't work and never has. STFU it is still broken. This still happens. I aggress a freighter, he realises he cannot fight me off with his alt in Sleipnir, so he logs both accounts off AFTER DECLOAKING AND BEING SCRAMBLED. 30 seconds later he disappears, not warps. Nowhere to be found on scanner. GM done nothing, so obviously something to that effect still works. How does this prove the proposed mechanic to disappear? It doesn't. You are talking about the effect, your target disappearing even though you have aggressed it before you think he logged off. Originally by: Awox They can easily log in another character on the same account or whatever the exploit is (I'm not actually sure) and disappear instantly. I see it happen all the time. See... You even agree... -- .sig apathy ftw
Kahor Minmatar Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.10 12:29:00 - [74] About the probe thing,it just takes the logger to know the game mechanics, and unless you manage to probe him in under 2minute and pop him within that time, there is nothing you can do (if he logged before being aggroed), coupled with the fact that aggro reset after each jump (another nice bug/feature of CCP), loggers hardly get killed. When you log while scrambled, you don't warp away. When you log while bubbled, you warp away. That's the only thing CCP need to consider, any other kind of talk is totaly rubish to begin with. ---------------- An eye for an eye make a whole world blind. snip, do not evade the word filter with your sig. Email [email protected] for more information. -HornFrog
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.03.10 12:32:00 - [75] Originally by: Zaqar Originally by: BentMyWookie Easy solution to logoffski: Same solution most other MMOs make to logoffski. Logoff Timer. You hit CTRL Q, it brings up a prompt "Are you sure you want to log off?" click Yes 2-minute countdown bar appears on-screen and you cannot move, undock, dock, activate modules or open any windows until the timer expires and the client closes. The UI will essentially freeze with the only exception being a "Cancel" button on the bar which will abort the logoff process. Yes. Additionally, being targetted or fired upon would reset the 2 min timer. Can anyone offer a reason why this wouldnt work? maybe a 30 sec timer, then you emergency warp and 2 min offline timer/15 min aggro timer begins... this would allow people to log off when they need to but would stop ASSHATS doing it at gates... also you CAN NOT CLOAK AND LOG OH MY ******* GOD NO. That and take cloaks/smart bombs off titans... There you go CCP we fixed your crappy game for you.
Lucky Lynn	Posted - 2007.03.10 13:02:00 - [76] I don't mean to upset anyone here. But Logging on/off is nothing new. A little bit of history.
Raquel Smith Caldari Freedom-Technologies	Posted - 2007.03.10 13:21:00 - [77] Originally by: Awox Except when the 5 targets you find in 0.0 over the course of an hour logout making training for them completely useless. Can I have my SP back please? Stop crying. Adapt or quit.
Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.10 13:53:00 - [78] Originally by: Raquel Smith Originally by: Awox Except when the 5 targets you find in 0.0 over the course of an hour logout making training for them completely useless. Can I have my SP back please? Stop crying. Adapt or quit. Stupid comment. How can you adapt to this? I tried getting a covert ops mate. This didn't work as people just logged in and out to move ships, or if they knew how the exploit which CCP wont even investigate works.. their ships just disappeared immediately without showing up on scans at all after it leaves the bubble.
Raquel Smith Caldari Freedom-Technologies	Posted - 2007.03.10 15:09:00 - [79] Originally by: Awox Originally by: Raquel Smith Originally by: Awox Except when the 5 targets you find in 0.0 over the course of an hour logout making training for them completely useless. Can I have my SP back please? Stop crying. Adapt or quit. Stupid comment. How can you adapt to this? I tried getting a covert ops mate. This didn't work as people just logged in and out to move ships, or if they knew how the exploit which CCP wont even investigate works.. their ships just disappeared immediately without showing up on scans at all after it leaves the bubble. Kill people elsewhere, or perhaps on the other side of the gate.
Aslann Gallente Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.10 15:23:00 - [80] Originally by: prsr Originally by: Xendie wont work as people log in to their other character on the same account and then they dissapear instantly Stop spreading rumours from 2 years ago. This doesn't work and never has. Then explain plz how a scrambled freighter disappears from space (without being able to dock or jump a gate)?
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.10 15:45:00 - [81] Originally by: Mr Mozzie As far as I can tell, he is trying to say that if logoffski goes, then there needs to be something to prevent interdictors from being an Iwin tactic. This is a valid point. No, it's not. Interdictors and bubbles are not balanced with logging off in mind, thus preventing logoffskis does not require a subsequent rebalance of interdictors or bubbles. - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.03.10 23:19:00 - [82] Originally by: Raquel Smith Originally by: Awox Except when the 5 targets you find in 0.0 over the course of an hour logout making training for them completely useless. Can I have my SP back please? Stop crying. Adapt or quit. I agree. Logoff is nothing but Darwinism at work. For example, In a typical 75 man-0.0 gate camp, when someone logs off on them, 30 of the campers will adapt and continue to spawn pop and play Space Invaders on easy mode while the other 45 will either go to the forum and cry about it and/or quit the game all together.
Misconte Caldari A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A	Posted - 2007.03.10 23:47:00 - [83] Originally by: ghosttr All I see here are one-sided suggestions to make a gankers job easier and nothing that attempts to tackle fixing the reason people log. CCP has to put in something so its balanced, and sorry for you guys but that means that other people that play the game differently should get as much say as you. I can agree that logging in a bubble is a bad thing and that needs to be stopped. But to be fair you have to give the people that are logging some legitimate way to get out, and that means almost every ship should have an ample chance of escaping unless they try to run past the blockade created by the bubble. Or to avoid the bubble altogether. I can understand wanting a way to stop targets escaping inside of the bubble, but i can also understand that those targets log out because there is no other option. They have hit the 'point of no return' and really dont have any course of action besides to log. To be fair we need a solution that will allow people to go back to where they came from, or something that will show where a bubble is on the map so people an avoid them. If you make a change it should address the issue of people logging off for the gankers, but should also address the need to log off for the carebear. Pointless, people like that would still log off everytime the feel like, to save their ship or whatever they r carrying. people who log off at gatecamps or bubbles are CHEATERS. It so irrelevant thinking of giving an alternative way to counterattack a bubble to this cheater so they would stop cheating , oh well maybe they would stop logging off at bubbles and start somewhere else maybe in a Belt while they r ratting or during a fleet battle Loggingoff is an exploit and must be seen as it is, we shall not look behind the reason who can push someone to do it, those reasons are irrelevant and out of the game.
Reggie Stoneloader eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.11 00:52:00 - [84] I love the way this gets spun back and forth. When people are logging out, it's always the poor solo interdictor pilot who finds tasty haulers and can't kill them because they log. When the discussion turns to ways for those weak ships to avoid the inescapable bubble, the suggestions are always "Watch the map for blobs" and "No, else how could alliance fleets defend their space?" This is not the sort of discussion that can go anywhere good on the forum. Keep the flames rising. For my part, I have no sympathy whatsoever for people who go looking for targets and are stymied. If you're in a roaming gang with no objectives other than to destroy other people's ships, then there's not one scrap of justification for altering the game to facilitate your bloodthirsty endeavors. None. I don't care if you claim the space or if you've lived there for a long time, you don't have a target in mind and you're just out to collect killmails and corpses becasue you're bored of the uneventfully safe space you normally inhabit. If a fleet or adversary is important enough that it's a matter of your security to contain them, then making them all log off in the same spot is as good as a victory. You know their ship types, their exact location and their identities. They can't play EvE again until they log back on and face you. Due to the vagaries of logging on, they'll like as not be facing you one at a time like lambs to the slaughter. Get your fleet there, put some good music on and start owning them. If they aren't worth waiting for, or if they're just a disposable alt, then all you're really losing when they log is the killmail and a little loot. Grow up. I'd support a way to find loggers in your sovereignty, though. Don't let their ships vanish from space if they've got negative standings to the sovereign alliance. That way military fleets wouldn't be able to log off in tactical positions behind enemy lines and be completely safe. That's total crap. It's been said before. Like nano ships and instas and login traps and account sharing and complex farming and multi-account mining and gate camping and cloaked afk alts and lag traps and every other cheap tactic that bestows an advantage, logoffski is possible, and it's tolerated by CCP, and that makes it a valid tactic. If you're not using it, you're losing to the guys who do.
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.03.11 01:11:00 - [85] I dont know if logging another char on helps... but ive seen a deimos run a small camp and make it... his friend fled at the same time... The 3 of us (crow, vaga, celestis) followed and jumped after him... we saw him decloaking and i thought aligning... he was scrammed and just sat there... then at about half structure (we had little fire power) he just vanished... we were like wtf? at first we didnt know where the wreck was... then we thought he might have jumped.. but no... 15kms from the gate... and people in the other system didnt see him... His corp mate was still in system, i asked if he had logged and the reply i got was "no, he has a jumpdrive" so i said... you mean he did log? and he said "no. he jumped to jita." I cant remember the names but i did have them in my bio for a while... they were some bob pets in querious... so is this a result of relogging or is the loggoff timer just buggered (i thought it was 2 minutes... not 30 seconds until you dissapear?)
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.03.11 01:13:00 - [86] "If you're not using it, you're losing to the guys who do." Agree. In fact, I explain to all the noobs in the noob corp channels when I am on my alts on how to use log off so that they don't lose their ships to gate camps and bubbles. I figure it is just as valid a tactic as all the meta gaming garbage in this game.
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.03.11 01:20:00 - [87] Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader Condensed Stupidity. I disagree with everything you say. And I don't like you. Please leave.
XiticiX Gallente Kudzu Collective	Posted - 2007.03.11 03:42:00 - [88] If someone can currently offer up ways to avoid a bubble after jumping through a gate, i'd be more than happy to hear it. MWD aren't fast enough to turn around and go back through the gate. Stealth is useless with 10+ gankers and their drones. You aren't fast enough, can't use MWD or afterburner, and you decloak when you get close to anything. If bubbles had a strength attribute (small med and large offer more strength) and stabs were used to combat that, then the mechanic would work fine. More stabs = more chance of escaping a bubble. Larger bubble, more chance of catching some prey. It's a simple concept. As for the logoffski's, it's a lame tactic, but it's used because there is no alternative. Of course, if people are stupid and don't outfit a pipe-runner, then they'll still use it so it still needs to be dealt with. I agree with the countdown timer (aka WoW) option in this case. But honestly - there should be a way to combat anything and everything in the game. Bubbles included. Heck - Stealth ships too, but that's another post. ~~~ This is my sig. Do you like it? ~~~
Vandervecken Smith Athanasius Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.11 03:59:00 - [89] The basic issue with logging off is that CCP doesn't want to overly penalize those who suffer a genuine connection loss. However, as long as CCP is nice on people who genuinely lose connection, log-off guys will be able to simulate a connection loss. If CTRL-Q doesn't work, pulling the plug on your router will. If you abuse a privilege (TAPLAP, chance of survival from log-off), it will eventually be taken away. So CCP has a real problem. If they have to make it that logging off doesn't work, they'll have to make it so a connection loss doesn't work. In that case people with iffy connections are going to be up **** creak. Lots of unhappy people who don't abuse the mechanism. What would you do?
Nim9i5	Posted - 2007.03.11 04:03:00 - [90] maybe instead you should stop trying to gank noobs coming through in single ships and go get a fair fight. Seems like razor alliance and a few others just want easy kills at 0.0-empire gates. Dont like logging off either but seems like your reason is just to gank noobs, people don't log off in a fair fight
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.11 04:16:00 - [91] Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader I love the way this gets spun back and forth. When people are logging out, it's always the poor solo interdictor pilot who finds tasty haulers and can't kill them because they log. When the discussion turns to ways for those weak ships to avoid the inescapable bubble, the suggestions are always "Watch the map for blobs" and "No, else how could alliance fleets defend their space?" The bubble is supposed to be (more or less) inescapable. Logoffski breaks them. Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader For my part, I have no sympathy whatsoever for people who go looking for targets and are stymied. If you're in a roaming gang with no objectives other than to destroy other people's ships, then there's not one scrap of justification for altering the game to facilitate your bloodthirsty endeavors. None. I don't care if you claim the space or if you've lived there for a long time, you don't have a target in mind and you're just out to collect killmails and corpses becasue you're bored of the uneventfully safe space you normally inhabit. What you think of other people's playstyles is irrelevant. And we aren't talking about altering the game to facilitate them. We are talking about fixing a broken part of the game. Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader If a fleet or adversary is important enough that it's a matter of your security to contain them, then making them all log off in the same spot is as good as a victory. You know their ship types, their exact location and their identities. They can't play EvE again until they log back on and face you. Due to the vagaries of logging on, they'll like as not be facing you one at a time like lambs to the slaughter. Get your fleet there, put some good music on and start owning them. If they aren't worth waiting for, or if they're just a disposable alt, then all you're really losing when they log is the killmail and a little loot. Grow up. The campers should have to wait for the cheater to log back on? How about this, anyone who loses their connection in any manner while in a bubble is automatically destroyed and podkilled by the game? That's about as fair as your suggestion. Actually, no, it's even more fair, as it is what would likely happen anyway. Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader It's been said before. Like ~~nano ships~~ and ~~instas~~ and login traps and account sharing and complex farming and ~~multi-account mining~~ and ~~gate camping~~ and ~~cloaked afk alts~~ and lag traps and every other cheap tactic that bestows an advantage, logoffski is possible, and it's tolerated by CCP, and that makes it a valid tactic. Logoffski is an exploit, not just a cheap tactic. I took the liberty of narrowing down your list to actual exploits. Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader If you're not using it, you're losing to the guys who do. I'm not using it, and that's because I never need to. Which means I'm a better person (in relation to Eve) and (if they need to logoffski) a better player than 'the guys who do'. So I, for one, am happy as I am. - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.11 04:17:00 - [92] Originally by: Nim9i5 maybe instead you should stop trying to gank noobs coming through in single ships and go get a fair fight. Seems like razor alliance and a few others just want easy kills at 0.0-empire gates. Dont like logging off either but seems like your reason is just to gank noobs, people don't log off in a fair fight Once again, this is about fixing a break in the game. If you want to talk about rebalancing the game around the incompetent and the noobs, that comes later. - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Reggie Stoneloader eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.11 06:25:00 - [93] Yes, you should sit there and wait for them to log back in. Thanks to WTZ you can position your ships within meters of the spot they'll appear at. Nine times out of ten you're camping anyway, so pour another drink and wait for him to come back. Low-sec empire gate campers kill loggers all the time by probing them down and killing them. They even get the pods most of the time. Sure, a solo interdictor can't do everything by himself, but a solo battleship can carry a GSC or open a jump gate either. Different roles for different ships. CovOps are a good choice for catching loggers.
Mia Sasaki	Posted - 2007.03.11 09:20:00 - [94] Awox man, this is just a game and you are taking it way to personally. Check your emotions at the login screen. Your logic is flawed though... Originally by: Awox there is another option, which you, and every other quake kiddy playing cannot understand. This is a tactical multiplayer game in which teamwork is rewarded, if you sent in a friend in an interceptor ahead (or even throwaway noobscouts as permitted by CCP...) you could have decided not to jump in. Here you make a valid point about teamwork. Originally by: Awox I operate solo 90% of the time, and I have people log off on me. Do you realise how difficult it is to operate solo in 0.0 these days? Do you understand that Warp Disrupt Probes are quite big and I waste nearly all of my cargo hold on them because I rarely ever actually kill anything because it logs off. And your complaining 'cause you can't solo. At any rate, I feel that prey shouldn't have a get-out-of-jail-free card. On the flip side, hunters shouldn't have an iWIN button. If you at least make the people feel like they can get away they'll be less likely to abuse logging out. I wont bother with details - there's enough ideas floating around as-is.
Balklanac Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.11 10:27:00 - [95] Originally by: R3dSh1ft log out in bubble should = aggro timer Yes --------- I would love to see a bounty pilot get some friend or an alt to pod them to collect the isk if that resulted in a two week delay before their 'personality' was uploaded to a new clone.
Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.11 12:24:00 - [96] Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader I love the way this gets spun back and forth. When people are logging out, it's always the poor solo interdictor pilot who finds tasty haulers and can't kill them because they log. When the discussion turns to ways for those weak ships to avoid the inescapable bubble, the suggestions are always "Watch the map for blobs" and "No, else how could alliance fleets defend their space?" Inescapable bubble? I've only ever died once jumping a ship I setup to scout into a bubble camp, even with a huginn I am able to escape. I only have 12m SP ffs, if I can do it, I am pretty sure most can. Oh, by the way, I attack far more than haulers too, even though if I were to only attack haulers and run from everything else that would be perfectly valid aswell TYVM. Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader For my part, I have no sympathy whatsoever for people who go looking for targets and are stymied. If you're in a roaming gang with no objectives other than to destroy other people's ships, then there's not one scrap of justification for altering the game to facilitate your bloodthirsty endeavors. None. I don't care if you claim the space or if you've lived there for a long time, you don't have a target in mind and you're just out to collect killmails and corpses becasue you're bored of the uneventfully safe space you normally inhabit. I'll kill on my doorstep and I'll kill afar. Until CCP says this isn't cool. I kill to collect loot which I then sell for ISK. What's so bad about that? Sounds to me you think I need to join a 4000 man alliance to pewpew or something. Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader If they aren't worth waiting for, or if they're just a disposable alt, then all you're really losing when they log is the killmail and a little loot. Grow up. If someone logs off, I complain because: a) I get no loot, but then again, I am rich with infinate ISK so I don't really need looT! b) It's boring, but then again, why should I be able to PvP in this game, I should PvE instead! c) I wasted a probe, but then again, I am rich with infinate ISK so this is no matter! d) I wasted time, but then again, my game time isn't as valuable as a cheater! Hint: I'm not rich. I pvp for my crust. I'm a fighter. I kill stuff. Atleast, unles they log. So please, stop acting like I am out to grief people. I'm just trying to get by. But you are right, if it is a disposable alt, the only thing I could possibly get from the kill is a cheap thrill. Originally by: Vandervecken Smith The basic issue with logging off is that CCP doesn't want to overly penalize those who suffer a genuine connection loss. However, as long as CCP is nice on people who genuinely lose connection, log-off guys will be able to simulate a connection loss. You have to realise if someone jumps into a gate-camp and suffers a fatal crash or connection loss they cannot log back in to move their ship about or use whatever the EXPLOIT is that allows them to make it disappear of scans instantly, like the Red Alliance freighter I attacked yesterday. So they will die to a fast covops anyway. Originally by: Nim9i5 maybe instead you should stop trying to gank noobs coming through in single ships and go get a fair fight. Seems like razor alliance and a few others just want easy kills at 0.0-empire gates. Dont like logging off either but seems like your reason is just to gank noobs, people don't log off in a fair fight Okay. I take my Sabre to 0.0, usually alone, and attack usually anything that comes through a gate. Usually including some battleships and cruisers. Guess what, even battleships and cruisers log off in my bubbles with get this, just me in local. So how am I trying to gank noobs again? Thankyou.
Mr Mozzie Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.03.11 15:48:00 - [97] Originally by: prsr Originally by: Mr Mozzie In any case the effect of removing logoffski on the balance of the game should be carefully thought out. And from what I have seen CCP is doing this. Uhm, putting in logoffski is what unbalanced the game. Getting it out will make things work like normal again. Then you can start thinking about balance. Changing something that is unbalanced does not automatically make it balanced.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.11 16:16:00 - [98] Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader Yes, you should sit there and wait for them to log back in. Thanks to WTZ you can position your ships within meters of the spot they'll appear at. Nine times out of ten you're camping anyway, so pour another drink and wait for him to come back. Low-sec empire gate campers kill loggers all the time by probing them down and killing them. They even get the pods most of the time. Sure, a solo interdictor can't do everything by himself, but a solo battleship can carry a GSC or open a jump gate either. Different roles for different ships. CovOps are a good choice for catching loggers. This is like saying if someone storms away from a game in RL because they are losing the solution is to sit there and wait for them to come back. The solution is to not play with the guy. - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Selnix Gallente Master Miners Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.11 16:52:00 - [99] Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader Yes, you should sit there and wait for them to log back in. Thanks to WTZ you can position your ships within meters of the spot they'll appear at. Nine times out of ten you're camping anyway, so pour another drink and wait for him to come back. Low-sec empire gate campers kill loggers all the time by probing them down and killing them. They even get the pods most of the time. Sure, a solo interdictor can't do everything by himself, but a solo battleship can carry a GSC or open a jump gate either. Different roles for different ships. CovOps are a good choice for catching loggers. You really don't seem to understand the problem with loggers. Early this morning, without an interdictor, we got to watch a nano-myrmidon and a nano-domi log out in a safespot after attacking one of our people who was returning home in a typhoon. The guy then proceeded to log in, and back out about 5 seconds later, repeatedly, for the next hour or so. He could not be probed out as he was not connected a sufficient amount of time for him to appear in space for someone to target him and agress him to activate the timer. We had three vessels with recon probe launchers available, but they couldn't do a thing beyond busting the original safe because of this guy's logoff abuse. And having our little flight group at the point which his ship would have reappeared served to do precisely jack for us as he never left the connection active long enough to drop out of warp there. This wasn't some innocent hauler, it was a cheater, simple as that. It is a total load of <insert smelly substance here> that two people can attempt to gank a solo pilot and then exploit a flaw in the game to become invulnerable when his friends arrive five or ten minutes later to assist him. The worst part of all... Having my dictor that I trained for a couple of months to use with me would have made absolutely no difference beyond wasting a ton of expensive probes.
Rudy Metallo Minmatar G.H.O.S.T	Posted - 2007.03.11 17:26:00 - [100] Originally by: Awox Originally by: Znaei Afaik CCP is well aware of the problem and doesnt like it any more than we do. Last i heard they are trying to find a solution to this problem. Are they really? They seem more interested in keep subscriptions to me. Exactly. More people are **ed about it than people that do it, I would imagine that some of the people thatn do it are **ed off about it too. They're working on it.
Hypatia Iola Caldari Warhounds	Posted - 2007.03.11 17:37:00 - [101] Originally by: Ockk It should be a moat. With alligators... that are on fire!! colbert report referece FTW
Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.12 04:28:00 - [102] Originally by: Selnix The guy then proceeded to log in, and back out about 5 seconds later, repeatedly, for the next hour or so. Player disconnects, reconnects, disconnects, reconnects, disconnects, reconnects, disconnects, reconnects, disconnects, reconnects, probes in system are dropped. This would be so easy for CCP to detect and police. But maybe they'd prefer to let people have these get-away-free "tactics"? Afterall, who enjoys playing a game that they are horrible at? Originally by: Selnix The worst part of all... Having my dictor that I trained for a couple of months to use with me would have made absolutely no difference beyond wasting a ton of expensive probes. This annoys me the most. I wish I could get that SP refunded as interdictors nowadays are really starting to suck to fly. Hell, I wish I could get the 230m+ ISK I sunk on my Sabre back, I should have used that money to buy a Raven so I can solo-NPC in 0.0 with no risk and use logoff "tactic" to escape any danger.
Lunarra Paradox v2.0 Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2007.03.12 05:40:00 - [103] Edited by: Lunarra on 12/03/2007 05:37:25 There are many ways to avoid a camp! I'm hauling a lot around droneland and has to pass the dreaded LXQ system. NEVER lost a hauler so far. How? Alliance intel. Scout. (a friend, i can't run 2 accounts on my pc) Well planned route: meaning perch points where i can scan gates. cloak on the hauler. Its easy no? Also i like the idea of a window timer if you want to log out from space. After all why would we need to log out in space in such an emergency? You could say RL issues. a/ its wierd how RL issues always tend to happen when you just jumped stupidly in a bble b/ i'm sure "most" of the time RL can wait 120sec.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.12 05:44:00 - [104] Originally by: Lunarra i'm sure "most" of the time RL can wait 120sec. Your wiring overheats and sets your legs on fire. Only kidding, I agree ofc. - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
wrere	Posted - 2007.03.12 06:11:00 - [105] You idiots still whine about logoffskis ? It`s geting very old. It`s so annoying that eventhough I never log off I would do it to the OP just to annoy him back. Fool
Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.12 14:10:00 - [106] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Lunarra i'm sure "most" of the time RL can wait 120sec. Your wiring overheats and sets your legs on fire. Only kidding, I agree ofc. Originally by: wrere You idiots still whine about logoffskis ? It`s geting very old. It`s so annoying that eventhough I never log off I would do it to the OP just to annoy him back. Fool Thanks for the multiple personal attacks. Listen friend, I will complain about this until it is fixed, or my forum access is banned, I feel that's the least I deserve for not getting my SP refunded for training a broken ship.
Deva Blackfire Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.03.12 14:38:00 - [107] Originally by: Nim9i5 maybe instead you should stop trying to gank noobs coming through in single ships and go get a fair fight. Seems like razor alliance and a few others just want easy kills at 0.0-empire gates. Dont like logging off either but seems like your reason is just to gank noobs, people don't log off in a fair fight Or maybe they are keeping down the "fairness" to "gatecampers vs invaders" rather than "mining barge in deep 0.0 vs hostile"? You want fair fight from gatecampers but on other hand you like to gank unarmed ppl? Hipocryte...

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No they shouldn't