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Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 633	Posted - 2016.07.26 06:19:17 - [1] - Quote Posting lossmails is against the rules, so I won't. However, I will post a link to Reddit and if you read yoyo's post (3rd most up voted) that's a pretty chill response, but also a lot of dedication to this game: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/4ujvkt/luxury_yacht_down/ I would like to think I'd be as relaxed about such a loss, but then....in reality I don't think I would be.
Coralas Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 28	Posted - 2016.07.26 06:37:08 - [2] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Posting lossmails is against the rules, so I won't. However, I will post a link to Reddit and if you read yoyo's post (3rd most up voted) that's a pretty chill response, but also a lot of dedication to this game: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/4ujvkt/luxury_yacht_down/ I would like to think I'd be as relaxed about such a loss, but then....in reality I don't think I would be. He can be chill about it, because he'll have exactly the same amount of injectors next month. All he has to do is leave the extractors at jita and use them through assets and then his income is basically unable to be interdicted.
DeMichael Crimson Republic University Minmatar Republic 55814	Posted - 2016.07.26 06:48:00 - [3] - Quote You think someone not raging over the loss of the Victorieux Luxury Yacht with 338 Skill Injectors in cargohold is serious dedication ? I think the serious dedication is the fact that person has 227 accounts set up to farm Skill Injectors. Wait, did I say serious dedication ? I meant to say serious exploitation. Personally I think CCP needs to rework the game mechanics for Skill Injectors. Those were originally intended for a character to move SP's from one skill group to another skill group, not bypass the training queue and increase the amount of SP's a character originally had to begin with. DMC 'The Plan' \| California Eve Players \| Proposal - The Endless Battle
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 633	Posted - 2016.07.26 06:58:35 - [4] - Quote DeMichael Crimson wrote: You think someone not raging over the loss of the Victorieux Luxury Yacht with 338 Skill Injectors in cargohold is serious dedication ? I think the serious dedication is the fact that person has 227 accounts set up to farm Skill Injectors. Wait, did I say serious dedication ? I meant to say serious exploitation. Personally I think CCP needs to rework the game mechanics for Skill Injectors. Those were originally intended for a character to move SP's from one skill group to another skill group, not bypass the training queue and increase the amount of SP's a character originally had to begin with. DMC No, the 227 accounts is the dedication. The chill response is just an interesting observation, but 227 accounts is amazing.
Coralas Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 29	Posted - 2016.07.26 07:13:05 - [5] - Quote DeMichael Crimson wrote: You think someone not raging over the loss of the Victorieux Luxury Yacht with 338 Skill Injectors in cargohold is serious dedication ? I think the serious dedication is the fact that person has 227 accounts set up to farm Skill Injectors. Wait, did I say serious dedication ? I meant to say serious exploitation. Personally I think CCP needs to rework the game mechanics for Skill Injectors. Those were originally intended for a character to move SP's from one skill group to another skill group, not bypass the training queue and increase the amount of SP's a character originally had to begin with. DMC The character bazaar has always bypassed the training queue, it just did it badly. Likewise it was always possible to farm characters. It has however many problems that made for imo less than compelling gameplay (waaay too much capital, far tooo many SPs traded in one go and stomps all over the concept of character histories, or even being able to use a name you like on a character). I have 15m SP on this character, I've earned all the injectors with this character, and the experience was enjoyable. The feeling of it being able to usefully progress after each injection was awesome. IMO its a better new player experience with injectors. The game works just fine for people that don't need skill points anymore, ie its not a problem for EVE if newer players can progress more quickly, and its not a problem if they proceed past the point where they care about SP.
Eternus8lux8lucis Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM 845	Posted - 2016.07.26 07:17:44 - [6] - Quote Neither amazing or dedication imo. Yeah I agree with Coralas, he will have the same next month and every month hes had that farm set up previously so I highly doubt losing that much THIS month is going to affect his bottom line one wit. That being said when not really playing the game makes you the most isk its kinda a sad story. I always thought it ironic and funny in a morbid sort of way that the best way to play Eve was to not log in and not play it was bad game design. But the longer I play this game the more humorous this has gotten for me. Someones attacking you? Log off said alt and log in another. Someones war deccing you? Log off said alt and log in another. Want to make isk? Passive isk FTW. Not logging in is almost always the answer lol Have you heard anything I've said? You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right? That's right. Had to end sometime.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 38	Posted - 2016.07.26 07:18:37 - [7] - Quote This game is full of exploitations. Developers don't care at all about them imo. This is just only another one.
Coralas Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 29	Posted - 2016.07.26 07:21:22 - [8] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: This game is full of exploitations. Developers don't care at all about them imo. This is just only another one. The limit to the "exploit" is the price of plex. its actually a fun mechanic in a lot of ways.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 633	Posted - 2016.07.26 07:46:08 - [9] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: This game is full of exploitations. Developers don't care at all about them imo. This is just only another one. Do you ever have a positive word to say about anything?
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13945	Posted - 2016.07.26 08:48:26 - [10] - Quote I wonder how much fun he extracts from those accounts. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Yarosara Ruil 493	Posted - 2016.07.26 09:33:22 - [11] - Quote To say a loss doesn't bother you is a farce. Every loss should bother a person, even if a bit. From disappointment, to mild nuisance, to full blown rage, to pure salt. But his real strength of character comes from retaining composure even when faced with a loss like this, and bite the pillow.
DeMichael Crimson Republic University Minmatar Republic 55817	Posted - 2016.07.26 09:49:16 - [12] - Quote Coralas wrote: The character bazaar has always bypassed the training queue, it just did it badly. Likewise it was always possible to farm characters. It has however many problems that made for imo less than compelling gameplay (waaay too much capital, far tooo many SPs traded in one go and stomps all over the concept of character histories, or even being able to use a name you like on a character). I have 15m SP on this character, I've earned all the injectors with this character, and the experience was enjoyable. The feeling of it being able to usefully progress after each injection was awesome. IMO its a better new player experience with injectors. The game works just fine for people that don't need skill points anymore, ie its not a problem for EVE if newer players can progress more quickly, and its not a problem if they proceed past the point where they care about SP. You couldn't be more wrong even if you tried. And on top of that you totally missed the point of my post. The characters for sale in the Bazaar never bypassed the Training Queue. Those characters all spent time getting their skills via the training queue. The whole point of the training queue is that it makes Eve a long term game giving the player something to work towards and pride in achieving that goal. It also basically keeps CCP collecting money. Characters such as yourself using skill injectors bypass the training queue thus turning Eve into a short term game. You and all the other instant gratification players will more than likely be gone in less than a year due to experiencing most everything Eve has to offer due to buying SP's. P2W will be the death of Eve. By the way, using the New Player card to justify the exploitation of this game mechanic is weak, especially since it's mainly used by Vet's who can PLEX alt accounts for skillpoint farming. The CCP Dev who came up with the idea of allowing characters to bypass the training queue and increase skill points with skill injectors should be fired. DMC 'The Plan' \| California Eve Players \| Proposal - The Endless Battle
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 40	Posted - 2016.07.26 10:03:51 - [13] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: This game is full of exploitations. Developers don't care at all about them imo. This is just only another one. Do you ever have a positive word to say about anything? Yes, I have. Exploration is amazing. Factional warfare is amazing too.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 634	Posted - 2016.07.26 10:06:11 - [14] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: This game is full of exploitations. Developers don't care at all about them imo. This is just only another one. Do you ever have a positive word to say about anything? Yes, I have. Exploration is amazing. Factional warfare is amazing too. :) ignore me then and carry on.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13954	Posted - 2016.07.26 12:30:00 - [15] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: This game is full of exploitations. Developers don't care at all about them imo. This is just only another one. Do you ever have a positive word to say about anything? Yes, I have. Exploration is amazing. Factional warfare is amazing too. :) ignore me then and carry on. I am a dedicated explorer. I know they could refresh some sites. They are exactly the same every time you run them. What is random is only loot. But I like exploration nonetheless. And faction warfare isnt bad too. I have been there and saw how it all works. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Memphis Baas 1805	Posted - 2016.07.26 13:05:07 - [16] - Quote I wonder what his EVE Launcher looks like.
Tao Dolcino EVE University Ivy League 565	Posted - 2016.07.26 13:55:09 - [17] - Quote DeMichael Crimson wrote: Personally I think CCP needs to rework the game mechanics for Skill Injectors. Those were originally intended for a character to move SP's from one skill group to another skill group, not bypass the training queue and increase the amount of SP's a character originally had to begin with. Sadly no, they always have been intended to one and only one thing : generating as much short term money as possible for CCP, whatever the consequences for the game. It's their politic since so many years. CCP 2015 : "Fluff is good"
Galaxxis Unicorn Rampage 184	Posted - 2016.07.26 13:58:32 - [18] - Quote How foolish.
Coralas Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 29	Posted - 2016.07.26 14:23:36 - [19] - Quote DeMichael Crimson wrote: Coralas wrote: The character bazaar has always bypassed the training queue, it just did it badly. Likewise it was always possible to farm characters. It has however many problems that made for imo less than compelling gameplay (waaay too much capital, far tooo many SPs traded in one go and stomps all over the concept of character histories, or even being able to use a name you like on a character). I have 15m SP on this character, I've earned all the injectors with this character, and the experience was enjoyable. The feeling of it being able to usefully progress after each injection was awesome. IMO its a better new player experience with injectors. The game works just fine for people that don't need skill points anymore, ie its not a problem for EVE if newer players can progress more quickly, and its not a problem if they proceed past the point where they care about SP. You couldn't be more wrong even if you tried. And on top of that you totally missed the point of my post. The characters for sale in the Bazaar never bypassed the Training Queue. Those characters all spent time getting their skills via the training queue. All the skills I have, were trained on somebodies skill queue. They didn't magic into space. As a returning player however, I wanted to start the game again, see all the things I loved, I just didn't want to play the game at the old speed. If someone wants to play the game at that speed, they just don't buy injectors. You know what these players did before injectors. They used their same 200+ accounts to spam make mining or pve alts and sold those instead. Its no different, except that the skill point decisions were standardized and not understood by their owners. Someone that injects skills, knows what they have. Quote: The whole point of the training queue is that it makes Eve a long term game giving the player something to work towards and pride in achieving that goal. It also basically keeps CCP collecting money. Characters such as yourself using skill injectors bypass the training queue thus turning Eve into a short term game. You and all the other instant gratification players will more than likely be gone in less than a year due to experiencing most everything Eve has to offer due to buying SP's. P2W will be the death of Eve. You missed my point - EVE remains fun after the skill points you want are acquired. The whole idea that someone should wait around not being able to do things, and then be at the typical end of sub when they get the SP is silly - its that terrible treadmill that unsubbed me from EVE the first time I unsubbed my original character. For reasons like that they sensibly canned learning skills - because the average person unsubs after 9 months, where the learning skills often didn't pay back. Waiting for skills to train is the least enjoyable thing in eve. Renting was more fun than waiting for carriers to train, since well renting required me to do logistics tasks, kill solo players to prevent them poaching my content and run moon goo and do high end plexes, where as waiting for carriers, I could have done that without logging on. ie Renting was sov null lite, waiting for carriers, was the same as waiting for a bus. Quote: By the way, using the New Player card to justify the exploitation of this game mechanic is weak, especially since it's mainly used by Vet's who can PLEX alt accounts for skillpoint farming. The CCP Dev who came up with the idea of allowing characters to bypass the training queue and increase skill points with skill injectors should be fired. DMC All SP is trained on someone. There is no moral difference between sell plexes to buy a character and sell plexes to buy SP to build a character. I've earned something in the order of 12 plexes, including a plex in the first week I played this character - with this newbie character. ie the skill points themselves being sold by the vets that you are complaining about, are vastly more accessible to new players, since they are delivered in chunks that are within the budgetary reach of new players, and further more buying one usually levers the players earning potential up so the next one is easier. Characters did not do this. They were too expensive, too out-of-gamey and too poorly understood by their new owners, and you only got them at the end of the process.
Sustrai Aditua Intandofisa 465	Posted - 2016.07.26 15:45:49 - [20] - Quote Do you really read Reddit, then think, "Gee, they'd just love this on the EVE forum?" Unbelievable. BOYCOTT REDDIT!! Remember Boston! If we get chased by zombies, I'm tripping you.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire 15475	Posted - 2016.07.26 16:32:45 - [21] - Quote EVE is real. /c GÿàGÿàGÿà Secure 3rd party service GÿàGÿàGÿà Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' Twitter/Instagram @Chribba

Freelancer117 So you want to be a Hero 500	Posted - 2016.07.26 20:19:57 - [22] - Quote Quote: Posting lossmails is against the rules Wait, this is a real thing ? What pinhead wrote that one up ? Eve online is : A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg http://bit.ly/1egr4mF
Shallanna Yassavi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 277	Posted - 2016.07.26 20:30:24 - [23] - Quote 227 accounts to farm injectors o.O Broken feature is broken. A signature :o
David Therman University of Caille Gallente Federation 153	Posted - 2016.07.26 20:48:50 - [24] - Quote Freelancer117 wrote: Quote: Posting lossmails is against the rules Wait, this is a real thing ? What pinhead wrote that one up ? Well, a lossmail is someone else's killmail (and vice-versa), it just depends which side of the fence you're on.
Sonya Corvinus Static-Noise Upholders 401	Posted - 2016.07.26 20:57:15 - [25] - Quote Dude has to be making money IRL from that setup. 227 accounts? I have multiple, but managing that is a job, not a game or hobby
Memphis Baas 1807	Posted - 2016.07.26 21:02:00 - [26] - Quote Shallanna Yassavi wrote: 227 accounts to farm injectors o.O Broken feature is broken. TBH, there's always someone in EVE who will go to the extreme. That doesn't mean the feature is broken. Just means some people are crazy. If you sit down and calculate the guy's cost to set up the accounts, and the fact that he has to reserve a PLEX for the subscription out of the profits he makes from injectors on each account, 300m ISK / month isn't a big deal; you can easily do that with PI in high sec. Only the fact that he has 227 of them makes it possible to claim 70B / month. There are industrialists, traders, and scammers who make more than that per month, with only 1-3 accounts.
elitatwo Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance 1345	Posted - 2016.07.28 17:54:58 - [27] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: ...300m ISK / month isn't a big deal; you can easily do that with PI in high sec. How? Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike. We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
u3pog Caldari Provisions Caldari State 749	Posted - 2016.07.28 18:11:36 - [28] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: Shallanna Yassavi wrote: 227 accounts to farm injectors o.O Broken feature is broken. TBH, there's always someone in EVE who will go to the extreme. That doesn't mean the feature is broken. Just means some people are crazy. If you sit down and calculate the guy's cost to set up the accounts, and the fact that he has to reserve a PLEX for the subscription out of the profits he makes from injectors on each account, 300m ISK / month isn't a big deal; you can easily do that with PI in high sec. Only the fact that he has 227 of them makes it possible to claim 70B / month. There are industrialists, traders, and scammers who make more than that per month, with only 1-3 accounts. Trader's profit ain't a flat line, sometimes they do, sometimes maybe not, don't know about the rest, besides at current prices you can make more than 300 mil per character, more like 100 bil per month and much more steady income, and it's always there, even if you don't log for a month or two, as long as you have the accounts active and with set queues. To the OP - I know from experience this dedication is nothing, but greed Still, I admire such dedication, no matter the reasons. I myself bought ultra desktop with 3 monitors only because of EVE, so I know how it feels.
Moac Tor Cyber Core Stain Confederation 615	Posted - 2016.07.28 18:12:21 - [29] - Quote DeMichael Crimson wrote: You think someone not raging over the loss of the Victorieux Luxury Yacht with 338 Skill Injectors in cargohold is serious dedication ? I think the serious dedication is the fact that person has 227 accounts set up to farm Skill Injectors. Wait, did I say serious dedication ? I meant to say serious exploitation. Who would have predicted that skill farms would become the ultimate form of passive ISK with the release of skill injectors... (end of sarcasm). Modulated ECM Effects An Alternative to Skill Trading
KaarBaak Squirrel Team 384	Posted - 2016.07.28 18:22:36 - [30] - Quote DeMichael Crimson wrote: Coralas wrote: The character bazaar has always bypassed the training queue, it just did it badly. Likewise it was always possible to farm characters. It has however many problems that made for imo less than compelling gameplay (waaay too much capital, far tooo many SPs traded in one go and stomps all over the concept of character histories, or even being able to use a name you like on a character). I have 15m SP on this character, I've earned all the injectors with this character, and the experience was enjoyable. The feeling of it being able to usefully progress after each injection was awesome. IMO its a better new player experience with injectors. The game works just fine for people that don't need skill points anymore, ie its not a problem for EVE if newer players can progress more quickly, and its not a problem if they proceed past the point where they care about SP. You couldn't be more wrong even if you tried. And on top of that you totally missed the point of my post. The characters for sale in the Bazaar never bypassed the Training Queue. Those characters all spent time getting their skills via the training queue. The whole point of the training queue is that it makes Eve a long term game giving the player something to work towards and pride in achieving that goal. It also basically keeps CCP collecting money. Characters such as yourself using skill injectors bypass the training queue thus turning Eve into a short term game. You and all the other instant gratification players will more than likely be gone in less than a year due to experiencing most everything Eve has to offer due to buying SP's. P2W will be the death of Eve. By the way, using the New Player card to justify the exploitation of this game mechanic is weak, especially since it's mainly used by Vet's who can PLEX alt accounts for skillpoint farming. The CCP Dev who came up with the idea of allowing characters to bypass the training queue and increase skill points with skill injectors should be fired. DMC I think you're conflating the terms "player" and "character." Once a *player* starts playing multiple characters, the physics change. KB Dum Spiro Spero
Dibz Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 86	Posted - 2016.07.28 18:36:19 - [31] - Quote I hate to be cynical (ok I don't), but I can't imagine anyone bothering to put much that effort into the game for purely in-game rewards.
KaarBaak Squirrel Team 384	Posted - 2016.07.28 18:46:02 - [32] - Quote Dibz wrote: I hate to be cynical (ok I don't), but I can't imagine anyone bothering to put much that effort into the game for purely in-game rewards. Captain Renault (aka CCP) would be shocked...SHOCKED...to learn that any RMT is occurring in his EvE. KB Dum Spiro Spero
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3462	Posted - 2016.07.28 19:17:38 - [33] - Quote Now realise that the average character to player ratio in EVE is only 1.5 (rounded). So consider how many solo account players must exist in order to balance out a 127 account player. As another interesting look at statistics that this sort of thing reveals.
Jarod Garamonde Jolly Codgers Get Off My Lawn 2667	Posted - 2016.07.28 19:56:18 - [34] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Posting lossmails is against the rules, so I won't. However, I will post a link to Reddit and if you read yoyo's post (3rd most up voted) that's a pretty chill response, but also a lot of dedication to this game: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/4ujvkt/luxury_yacht_down/ I would like to think I'd be as relaxed about such a loss, but then....in reality I don't think I would be. I could have sworn we all learned our lessons about transporting stuff like this with that PLEX Condor fiasco, a few years back. If you can redeem it in the station you want to sell it in, please do so. If you bought it to use it, please don't put it in your cargo hold. Basically, just don't ever put anything like this in your cargo, period. For any reason. No ship is safe. Anything can be killed. Nothing is invincible. Even a Cockroach frigate is theoretically killable (if they were available on any live server) with enough shooters. That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right... `[#savethelance]`
Jarod Garamonde Jolly Codgers Get Off My Lawn 2667	Posted - 2016.07.28 19:57:53 - [35] - Quote The real question here should be "why is the loot fairy such an arse?" Real money was paid for those. They should have all dropped. That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right... `[#savethelance]`
Paranoid Loyd 9318	Posted - 2016.07.28 20:08:27 - [36] - Quote Jarod Garamonde wrote: They should have all dropped. Why? Everything in game is the same. It's all "bought" with RL money. Fix the Prospect! New Server Hardware!
Jarod Garamonde Jolly Codgers Get Off My Lawn 2667	Posted - 2016.07.28 20:14:45 - [37] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: Jarod Garamonde wrote: They should have all dropped. Why? Everything in game is the same. It's all "bought" with RL money. Because if I ever kill someone hauling that many injectors or PLEX, I want to immediately use them all. That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right... `[#savethelance]`
Drago Shouna Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 489	Posted - 2016.07.28 20:15:28 - [38] - Quote Am I safe in presuming that due to the silence from CCP that they are ok with this? Really? This is so far from the gaming norm that it's difficult to get a grasp of, it has me staring at the screen wondering what the hell is happening to the game right now. There has to be something seriously **** up with anyone even considering running this many accounts, and something even more **** up with CCP even allowing it.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3462	Posted - 2016.07.28 20:32:08 - [39] - Quote Drago Shouna wrote: Am I safe in presuming that due to the silence from CCP that they are ok with this? Really? This is so far from the gaming norm that it's difficult to get a grasp of, it has me staring at the screen wondering what the hell is happening to the game right now. There has to be something seriously **** up with anyone even considering running this many accounts, and something even more **** up with CCP even allowing it. Why wouldn't CCP be ok with it, What rule is it violating? EVE is not a single account only game. So if someone wants that many accounts, it's surely up to them as long as they don't Bot.
Memphis Baas 1819	Posted - 2016.07.28 20:36:46 - [40] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Now realise that the average character to player ratio in EVE is only 1.5 (rounded). So consider how many solo account players must exist in order to balance out a 127 account player. 251.
Paranoid Loyd 9318	Posted - 2016.07.28 20:39:54 - [41] - Quote Jarod Garamonde wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: Jarod Garamonde wrote: They should have all dropped. Why? Everything in game is the same. It's all "bought" with RL money. Because if I ever kill someone hauling that many injectors or PLEX, I want to immediately use them all. And then send him an EVEmail saying "thanks for paying for my account for the next, like, 90 years." Fix the Prospect! New Server Hardware!
Moac Tor Cyber Core Stain Confederation 617	Posted - 2016.07.28 20:40:18 - [42] - Quote Drago Shouna wrote: Am I safe in presuming that due to the silence from CCP that they are ok with this? Really? This is so far from the gaming norm that it's difficult to get a grasp of, it has me staring at the screen wondering what the hell is happening to the game right now. There has to be something seriously **** up with anyone even considering running this many accounts, and something even more ** up with CCP even allowing it. Like all things market related he is speculating; he is speculating on the assumption that he will make more ISK from selling the injectors than he would do from buying the PLEX to run the account. He went in big (or probably already had the accounts existing already) and so far this has paid off for him, but I can't see injectors staying this profitable if profitable at all long term. Consider also that it takes around 3 months and a couple of billion ISK invested to get an account up to the level in which it can start making profit, and we can see why injectors are still so profitable even months after their release. If you were considering getting into this now though I'd probably say by the time the accounts get to the level in which they can start making profit injector prices will have fallen and PLEX risen which means little to no profit will be possible. Like all things, the people that benefited the most from the injector gold rush were the vets who already had numerous accounts to extract SP from. The newer less established players seemed to be the ones who screamed the loudest for this to be implemented along with a couple of either foolish / greedy vets, and now it is pretty clear that what was predicted has come to be, and the result is terrible for newer players who are grinding to pay veteran players for their surplus SP. Modulated ECM Effects An Alternative to Skill Trading**
Jarod Garamonde Jolly Codgers Get Off My Lawn 2667	Posted - 2016.07.28 20:51:29 - [43] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: Jarod Garamonde wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: Jarod Garamonde wrote: They should have all dropped. Why? Everything in game is the same. It's all "bought" with RL money. Because if I ever kill someone hauling that many injectors or PLEX, I want to immediately use them all. And then send him an EVEmail saying "thanks for paying for my account for the next, like, 90 years." Of COURSE that's your reaction. Haven't we argued about whether or not PvP players are actually murderous psychoes in real life? That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right... `[#savethelance]`
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7853	Posted - 2016.07.28 22:17:26 - [44] - Quote "Raging" You see what goes on in this game a lot is projection. The gankers are the ones who would rage at a loss, but they project, so the assume everybody else does. Many times I contacted their victims, and they didn't care. They just shrug and move on. Sure they might get one person out of many in some audio going on a Mel Gibson rant. That's what they want, and why they will post and share that audio and claim that everybody who is beneath them (a criteria met by not being one of them) is raging over losses. But we do know that gankers rage - especially when freighter wrecks started getting popped. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Paranoid Loyd 9318	Posted - 2016.07.28 22:38:07 - [45] - Quote Jarod Garamonde wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: Jarod Garamonde wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: Jarod Garamonde wrote: They should have all dropped. Why? Everything in game is the same. It's all "bought" with RL money. Because if I ever kill someone hauling that many injectors or PLEX, I want to immediately use them all. And then send him an EVEmail saying "thanks for paying for my account for the next, like, 90 years." Of COURSE that's your reaction. Haven't we argued about whether or not PvP players are actually murderous psychoes in real life? My reaction was due to your idioticly shallow response to my question. Not sure what PVP are in RL has to do with anything but no I don't believe we have. Fix the Prospect! New Server Hardware!
Jarod Garamonde Jolly Codgers Get Off My Lawn 2669	Posted - 2016.07.28 23:29:13 - [46] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: My reaction was due to your idioticly shallow response (not to mention your terrible math) to my question. Not sure what PVP players are in RL has to do with anything but no, I don't believe we have. My "idiotically shallow response"? Have you met me? Wait... lemme fix that for you. attempts to make hair look presentable Hi. I'm Jarod Garamonde. I'm nearly always drunk and/or high, and I exhibit habitual obfuscating stupidity. Despite my thirst for confrontation, I am actually a genuinely friendly guy, and I meet very few people I don't like. Pleased to meet you, and look forward to drinking with you during EVE Vegas. extends right hand That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right... `[#savethelance]`
Remiel Pollard Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 7681	Posted - 2016.07.29 03:54:33 - [47] - Quote DeMichael Crimson wrote: You think someone not raging over the loss of the Victorieux Luxury Yacht with 338 Skill Injectors in cargohold is serious dedication ? I think the serious dedication is the fact that person has 227 accounts set up to farm Skill Injectors. Wait, did I say serious dedication ? I meant to say serious exploitation. Personally I think CCP needs to rework the game mechanics for Skill Injectors. Those were originally intended for a character to move SP's from one skill group to another skill group, not bypass the training queue and increase the amount of SP's a character originally had to begin with. DMC It just needs a solid cap. At 100 mil SP, Injectors stop working completely. Originally, this was being sold as "not unlike trading characters on the character bazaar", but it most definitely is very unlike that. There, you would buy a new character with certain skills, and only certain skills. You got the SP of one character. With injectors, you can take multiple toons, all their SP, and put all that SP into just one. It's not the same, and that creates an imbalance that needs to be addressed. Personally, I'd prefer a cap around 50 mil SP, and I'm saying that as someone with 65+ who has most definitely been taking advantage of skill injectors as they are\, but I would settle for a higher one, but no higher than 100 mil. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Remiel Pollard Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 7681	Posted - 2016.07.29 03:57:53 - [48] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: "Raging" You see what goes on in this game a lot is projection. The gankers are the ones who would rage at a loss, but they project, so the assume everybody else does. Many times I contacted their victims, and they didn't care. They just shrug and move on. Sure they might get one person out of many in some audio going on a Mel Gibson rant. That's what they want, and why they will post and share that audio and claim that everybody who is beneath them (a criteria met by not being one of them) is raging over losses. But we do know that gankers rage - especially when freighter wrecks started getting popped. That explains all the well-publicised hate and abuse gankers receive frequently then. They're not mad at all, they're just raging cuz raging is fun and relaxing! Amiright? GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Drago Shouna Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 490	Posted - 2016.07.29 09:23:07 - [49] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Drago Shouna wrote: Am I safe in presuming that due to the silence from CCP that they are ok with this? Really? This is so far from the gaming norm that it's difficult to get a grasp of, it has me staring at the screen wondering what the hell is happening to the game right now. There has to be something seriously **** up with anyone even considering running this many accounts, and something even more **** up with CCP even allowing it. Why wouldn't CCP be ok with it, What rule is it violating? EVE is not a single account only game. So if someone wants that many accounts, it's surely up to them as long as they don't Bot. To run this many accounts it costs the following: Adding game time per month -ú2767 Adding per 3 monthly -ú2584 6 monthly -ú2307 12 monthly -ú2077 Plex each account ~-ú3400 due to the plex sale atm, a lot more when the prices are normal. You don't invest that much cash without expecting a cash return along the line somewhere. If this is just to farm plex then I don't believe it's just to get game time, the whole set up stinks.
Memphis Baas 1823	Posted - 2016.07.29 11:58:52 - [50] - Quote Drago Shouna wrote: To run this many accounts it costs the following: (approx 6000 / month) If this is just to farm plex then I don't believe it's just to get game time, the whole set up stinks. You have to realize that SP farm characters are self-sufficient, in terms of cost. Because of the ISK price difference between PLEX, injectors, and extractors on the in-game market, you can buy 3.9 extractors, sell 3.9 filled injectors, buy a plex, and still be left with a few millions of ISK profit, each month, completely in-game. Which is why it's being done with 277+ accounts, to use economies of scale to turn the millions of ISK / month into billions / month. Because there is no cash involved, just a lot of market transactions and a lot of clicking to extract skills and reverse-redeem PLEX from in-game to Account Management to activate the subscription. The demand for skillpoints exceeds the supply so much, that things have remained profitable for quite some time since injectors were introduced. Normally, the price of filled-up skill injectors should have dropped to follow the ups and downs of the PLEX prices, and basically wipe out possible profits, but there's too much demand for that to happen.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 338	Posted - 2016.07.29 12:33:23 - [51] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: Drago Shouna wrote: To run this many accounts it costs the following: (approx 6000 / month) If this is just to farm plex then I don't believe it's just to get game time, the whole set up stinks. You have to realize that SP farm characters are self-sufficient, in terms of cost. Because of the ISK price difference between PLEX, injectors, and extractors on the in-game market, you can buy 3.9 extractors, sell 3.9 filled injectors, buy a plex, and still be left with a few hundred-million ISK profit, each month, completely in-game. Which is why it's being done with 277+ accounts, to use economies of scale to turn the hundred-millions of ISK into tens-of-billions / month. Because there is no cash involved, just a lot of market transactions and a lot of clicking to extract skills and reverse-redeem PLEX from in-game to Account Management to activate the subscription. The demand for skillpoints exceeds the supply so much, that things have remained profitable for quite some time since injectors were introduced. Normally, the price of filled-up skill injectors should have dropped to follow the ups and downs of the PLEX prices, and basically wipe out possible profits, but there's too much demand for that to happen. EDIT: matter of fact, because he's using market-sourced PLEX for everything, he can activate character multi-training at the same cost as a subscription, so basically he can do it with 3 characters / account, for a total of 830 SP farm characters. Guy could be generating 1600 million skillpoints per month (3200 skill injectors / month). And he's just one player in a sea of 100,000 or more. And we still have more demand than that, to keep the entire feature profitable. And yet people keep arguing with me that EVE isn't pay-to-win - and this is no different than the character bazaar... I do not fault the OP nor others like him - it is a sound business strategy to farm SP, and exploiting every advantage CCP gives us is a long-standing EVE tradition.... But mass SP farmers are the reason that SP injectors are going to (or have already) become so prolific that EVE really is just another Pay to "Win" game (yes, yes, I know you don't actually win - but look at some other p2w games, you never "win" there either, they just keep finding ways to try to get you to spend money for more and more competitive advantages) - with enough SP for anybody who wants any amount they are willing to pay for - at any time.
Memphis Baas 1826	Posted - 2016.07.29 12:49:19 - [52] - Quote Shrug. Most other MMO's offer the ability to create pre-leveled 60 or 70 characters, as they get older and release many expansions that make some of the content obsolete. I look at it as EVE finally joining the rest of the genre in this regard, and catching up with some of the conveniences that are expected nowadays. And we can already see the effect of this "pay to win" as you call it: a lot more people are flying T2 and T3 ships, because they have the skills to do so. I'm guessing it's easier to get into capitals and supers too. Have there been fewer wars, less PVP combat, and worse gameplay, because of this? I'd argue no, quite the opposite in fact.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 338	Posted - 2016.07.29 12:54:57 - [53] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: Shrug. Most other MMO's offer the ability to create pre-leveled 60 or 70 characters, as they get older and release many expansions that make some of the content obsolete. I look at it as EVE finally joining the rest of the genre in this regard, and catching up with some of the conveniences that are expected nowadays. And we can already see the effect of this "pay to win" as you call it: a lot more people are flying T2 and T3 ships, because they have the skills to do so. I'm guessing it's easier to get into capitals and supers too. Have there been fewer wars, less PVP combat, and worse gameplay, because of this? I'd argue no, quite the opposite in fact. I'm not saying it is the death of the game, just that it is p2w - as you say, just like most other major games these days. Nor am i saying everyone needs to protest or quit or do anything negative about it. I personally just don't like pay to win games. On general principle. And that is my personal choice to make. I'm not trying to impose it on anybody else... I'm just tired of people who insist on trying to argue that I'm wrong and it isn't a p2w game like any other now - when it clearly is... shrug
Memphis Baas 1826	Posted - 2016.07.29 13:10:00 - [54] - Quote Well, people are probably arguing about it because there's still a bit of room for argument. Pay to win is when: 1. You pay to unlock abilities or get powerful items (EVE has this with the skill injectors) 2. You pay to gain invulnerability in combat or negate death (EVE doesn't have this) 3. You pay to unlock access to areas of the game / zones / new content (EVE's expansions are free). So, some people consider "pay to win" to be only number 2, with 1 and 3 being just "pay to play." So they'll argue with you, but just because they have a different definition of the term p2w.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 338	Posted - 2016.07.29 13:21:08 - [55] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: Well, people are probably arguing about it because there's still a bit of room for argument. Pay to win is when: 1. You pay to unlock abilities or get powerful items (EVE has this with the skill injectors) 2. You pay to gain invulnerability in combat or negate death (EVE doesn't have this) 3. You pay to unlock access to areas of the game / zones / new content (EVE's expansions are free). So, some people consider "pay to win" to be only number 2, with 1 and 3 being just "pay to play." So they'll argue with you, but just because they have a different definition of the term p2w. You would be surprised at the stances some of them try to take... As for the rest yeah it is a loosely defined term - though one could certainly argue that for #2 we have PLEX, and for #3 you have to pay every month for the content....so all we were missing was #1. Personally I will be amazed if they don't also release a direct item that protects you from war for 1 week at a time in the Aur store some time within the next year or so. I won't be here to see it most likely, and maybe I'm just paranoid - but time will tell.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14356	Posted - 2016.07.29 15:00:39 - [56] - Quote Dibz wrote: I hate to be cynical (ok I don't), but I can't imagine anyone bothering to put that much effort into the game for purely in-game rewards. I've seen people do much more in this game and others. The fact that you and I wouldn't do it doesn't mean someone else wouldn't, even for just in game reward.
Eternus8lux8lucis Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM 857	Posted - 2016.07.30 11:58:29 - [57] - Quote The reality is that buying more computer hardware to run more clients and paying for those clients with cash even before plex was introduced can be said to have been P2W too. As we all know how more characters can influence advancements in Eve. Yes is it going more and more things that can be min/maxed the same way? Sure. But thats also human nature out of game to do so why is it surprising that CCP or players are doing it? Are they not human as well and obey the basic tenants of human nature? Have you heard anything I've said? You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right? That's right. Had to end sometime.
Algarion Getz Aideron Corp 186	Posted - 2016.07.31 13:33:55 - [58] - Quote DeMichael Crimson wrote: You think someone not raging over the loss of the Victorieux Luxury Yacht with 338 Skill Injectors in cargohold is serious dedication ? I think the serious dedication is the fact that person has 227 accounts set up to farm Skill Injectors. Wait, did I say serious dedication ? I meant to say serious exploitation. Personally I think CCP needs to rework the game mechanics for Skill Injectors. Those were originally intended for a character to move SP's from one skill group to another skill group, not bypass the training queue and increase the amount of SP's a character originally had to begin with. DMC CCP should just remove skill injectors. They are a cash grab and nothing else. Furthermore the skill farmers waste tons of PLEX. Their chars never undock, they dont add any value to the sandbox. But they drive up the PLEX price which hurts the people who actualy play the game and need to pay with PLEX. CCP always talks about getting players into space, making them undock, yet they allow this stupid skill injector farming.
Memphis Baas 1851	Posted - 2016.07.31 15:09:43 - [59] - Quote Algarion Getz wrote: CCP should just remove skill injectors. They are a cash grab and nothing else. Furthermore the skill farmers waste tons of PLEX. Their chars never undock, they dont add any value to the sandbox. But they drive up the PLEX price which hurts the people who actualy play the game and need to pay with PLEX. CCP always talks about getting players into space, making them undock, yet they allow this stupid skill injector farming. They removed passive income sources like static ice belts and AFK ratting in carriers, but they allow skill injector farming. Guess why? Because they earn money with it. CCP should just remove their major source of profit. It just brings in money, and nothing else. Furthermore, skill farmers keep the PLEX moving within the economy, to the tune where 4000 PLEX are traded daily. They drive up the PLEX prices; otherwise PLEX prices would fall, and injector prices would continue to remain high, resulting in even more profit for skill farmers. This hurts those who grind ISK in order to play the game for free. CCP always talks about how great this game is, in order to get more people to pay for it. They closed down ISK faucets to reduce how easy it is to grind ISK and play the game for free, but they allow methods of making ISK that involve paying CCP some cash in the process. Guess why? Because they want to make money.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 14082	Posted - 2016.07.31 18:18:53 - [60] - Quote Fixing SP farms? Will this bring removal of passive SP acquirement? This seem as the viable fix from mechanics standpoint, but it would crash everything else probably. Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him.
Coralas Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2016.08.01 02:44:47 - [61] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: And yet people keep arguing with me that EVE isn't pay-to-win - and this is no different than the character bazaar... I do not fault the OP nor others like him - it is a sound business strategy to farm SP, and exploiting every advantage CCP gives us is a long-standing EVE tradition.... But mass SP farmers are the reason that SP injectors are going to (or have already) become so prolific that EVE really is just another Pay to "Win" game (yes, yes, I know you don't actually win - but look at some other p2w games, you never "win" there either, they just keep finding ways to try to get you to spend money for more and more competitive advantages) - with enough SP for anybody who wants any amount they are willing to pay for - at any time. You don't win by having SP, all you do is level the playing field. I have 16m SP, and the very first pvp (where the target wasn't in a pod) that I got into with this character, was already against far older characters in sleipners and scimitars. There is _NO_ amount of SP I can inject onto this character that would ever confer an _advantage_ to me over the PVP alliance staged 2 jumps from where I am right now, and 3 months in, with many billions earned and spent on injectors I have yet to even level the playing field and even if I did that, I still have to join an alliance of similar SP players to make much use of it, which means whatever SP I have is pretty much going just be part of the average SP of the alliance.
Shallanna Yassavi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 297	Posted - 2016.08.01 04:13:55 - [62] - Quote Coralas wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: And yet people keep arguing with me that EVE isn't pay-to-win - and this is no different than the character bazaar... I do not fault the OP nor others like him - it is a sound business strategy to farm SP, and exploiting every advantage CCP gives us is a long-standing EVE tradition.... But mass SP farmers are the reason that SP injectors are going to (or have already) become so prolific that EVE really is just another Pay to "Win" game (yes, yes, I know you don't actually win - but look at some other p2w games, you never "win" there either, they just keep finding ways to try to get you to spend money for more and more competitive advantages) - with enough SP for anybody who wants any amount they are willing to pay for - at any time. You don't win by having SP, all you do is level the playing field. I have 16m SP, and the very first pvp (where the target wasn't in a pod) that I got into with this character, was already against far older characters in sleipners and scimitars. There is _NO_ amount of SP I can inject onto this character that would ever confer an _advantage_ to me over the PVP alliance staged 2 jumps from where I am right now, and 3 months in, with many billions earned and spent on injectors I have yet to even level the playing field and even if I did that, I still have to join an alliance of similar SP players to make much use of it, which means whatever SP I have is pretty much going just be part of the average SP of the alliance. You don't win by having golden ships and ammo and gear, all you do is level the playing field against other players with golden ships and ammo and gear. You win by not falling into the whale trap of "If only I had xxx from the cash shop, I could be competitive." They do a little hand-waving to make it not come straight from the cash shop. A signature :o
Shallanna Yassavi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 297	Posted - 2016.08.01 04:33:19 - [63] - Quote Dibz wrote: I hate to be cynical (ok I don't), but I can't imagine anyone bothering to put that much effort into the game for purely in-game rewards. EVE has gotten into the news for game-related insanity. Someone once tried to take a capship pilot offline by having the power cut to his house. Players have gotten DDoSed to affect fleet fights, or their comms have been forced offline right before a fight. There was this semi-recent incident where Voltron was making a bug push againt the goons and EVE got DDoSed. Internet spaceships are serious business. A signature :o
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5054	Posted - 2016.08.01 05:09:48 - [64] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: This game is full of exploitations. Developers don't care at all about them imo. This is just only another one. Can I have your stuff too? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Coralas Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2016.08.01 06:26:04 - [65] - Quote Shallanna Yassavi wrote: You don't win by having golden ships and ammo and gear, all you do is level the playing field against other players with golden ships and ammo and gear. You win by not falling into the whale trap of "If only I had xxx from the cash shop, I could be competitive." They do a little hand-waving to make it not come straight from the cash shop. Ah yes, because you run out of skill points after 5 arenas and then you have buy more if you want to .... oh wait!
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5054	Posted - 2016.08.01 06:35:01 - [66] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Memphis Baas wrote: ...300m ISK / month isn't a big deal; you can easily do that with PI in high sec. How? By making 3,200 robotics. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5054	Posted - 2016.08.01 06:43:07 - [67] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Now realise that the average character to player ratio in EVE is only 1.5 (rounded). So consider how many solo account players must exist in order to balance out a 127 account player. As another interesting look at statistics that this sort of thing reveals. There would have to be 451 solo accounts to balance plus this guy to get 1.5 alts on average. FYI. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5054	Posted - 2016.08.01 06:51:47 - [68] - Quote Okay, based on current prices with 227 accounts, each one an SP farm, this guy, could, in theory PLEX each account and then have about 45 billion ISK left over each month. Meh, I'm sure the IWI guys make that in a day. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
CowQueen MMXII 58	Posted - 2016.08.01 10:02:44 - [69] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Okay, based on current prices with 227 accounts, each one an SP farm, this guy, could, in theory PLEX each account and then have about 45 billion ISK left over each month. Meh, I'm sure the IWI guys make that in a day. Teckos Pech wrote: Okay, based on current prices with 227 accounts, each one an SP farm, this guy, could, in theory PLEX each account and then have about 45 billion ISK left over each month. Meh, I'm sure the IWI guys make that in a day. 227 accs * three characters = 681 chars Monthly costs per character: one plex for 900mio and 3 extractors for ~210 mio each = 1530 mio Monthly income for selling 3 injectors per char: ~1750mio Monthly profit per character: ~220 mio 220mio * 681 chars = ~150 billion per month Once a character is set up, it shouldn't take longer than a few minutes every other month or so to get the skills extracted. Let's say 3 minutes per character per month: ~34 hours total for going through all chars in a month Profit of 4.4 billion per hour Moo! Uddersucker, moo!
Linus Gorp Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker 335	Posted - 2016.08.01 11:29:32 - [70] - Quote I haven't read the entire thread, so I don't know if someone mentioned it before. yoyo did not make those characters / accounts for SP farming. He had them way before SP trading got revealed / introduced. He's using them to AFK cloaky camp and extort ISK from nullsec idiots. He's also an idiot himself and a really ******* terrible EVE player. I say that as someone that has dropped with him, not someone that was affected by his pathetic camping. If you want a good laugh, check out his killboard. Most of the fits are so ******** it's not even funny anymore. When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Drago Shouna Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 498	Posted - 2016.08.01 12:40:11 - [71] - Quote Don't forget either that you need a minimum of 5,500,000 sp to begin extracting. That's a large investment to even begin farming a character from scratch. Approx 3 months with +5's or a 6.5 bil investment in injectors to get each one going?
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 355	Posted - 2016.08.01 12:49:33 - [72] - Quote Drago Shouna wrote: Don't forget either that you need a minimum of 5,500,000 sp to begin extracting. That's a large investment to even begin farming a character from scratch. Approx 3 months with +5's or a 6.5 bil investment in injectors to get each one going? So using CowQueens numbers you need to spend 1.5 hours per character extracting skills to recover your initial investment - everything after that is pure profit... Not that bad really.

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