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Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1930	Posted - 2016.07.26 09:24:12 - [1] - Quote https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6576730#post6576730 Who was talking about this in a non-civil way, the people who don't want to talk about the issue and go into insults was the HTFU players. You are wrong to close down this new debate because it is a debate about the lack of consequences and game balance. IBL for the insulting types... EDIT: All credit to the OP that was a very good post COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Maekchu Gunpoint Diplomacy 353	Posted - 2016.07.26 09:27:31 - [2] - Quote The hell is wrong with you people... There are consequences, but they are just not severe enough in the eyes of the "carebears". Also, it's not that the linked thread was non-civil. But the previous one to that became a circle-jerk, so it got locked. Reopening locked threads is against the rules, which is why the one you linked got locked as well. Just like this one will get locked too. It's simple forum rules. It's not that hard and not an attempt to censor your opinions.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17690	Posted - 2016.07.26 09:31:46 - [3] - Quote Maekchu wrote: The hell is wrong with you people... There are consequences, but they are just not severe enough in the eyes of the "carebears". Also, it's not that the linked thread was non-civil. But the previous one to that became a circle-jerk, so it got locked. Reopening locked threads is against the rules, which is why the one you linked got locked as well. Just like this one will get locked too. It's simple forum rules. It's not that hard and not an attempt to censor your opinions. Its been a few weeks since the last nerf to ganking so its time for them to demand just one more.
Eternus8lux8lucis Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM 845	Posted - 2016.07.26 09:32:24 - [4] - Quote Maekchu wrote: The hell is wrong with you people... LMFAO I read that and the first thing that came to mind was: Everything...... and then the quote from a movie "the best part of you ran down your mommas leg and ended up a brown stain on the mattress" Thanx for my daily laugh dude!! Have you heard anything I've said? You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right? That's right. Had to end sometime.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1931	Posted - 2016.07.26 09:40:24 - [5] - Quote #1 - 2016-07-26 08:53:12 UTC \| \| Edited by: Skettis Arthie https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6575776#post6575776 "CCP Falcon" wrote: In a sandbox game that's designed purely around player interaction, cause and effect, action and reaction, why should the game provide you with a 100% safe option, and why should there be a position in EVE where you're isolated from interaction with other players? I don't see the logic in CONCORD being anything more than a deterrent, the same way as any real world law enforcement agency operates. They're punitive rather than than proactive in their law enforcement, just the same as real world law works. They act on the principle of an eye for an eye, actually a lot more severe than real world law enforcement. Like you said falcon, action and reaction. www.eveonline.com motto: "REAL LIFE SCIENCE FICTION" What happends right now in real life if I'm in the mood of stealing someones briefcase or cut his throat ? I will get caught I will take years in prison I will have a record on file, next time I'll do it ... i'll get even more years in prison, or even lifetime Can I bail out ? Depends of the crime ... if I steal a briefcase, then probably yes ... The state in which I commited the crime would allow me to use a public store (like stations) to hide until I will do the next robbery ? NO way! What happends right now in EVE if I'm in the mood to start griefing another corp and start taking it's towers, wardec, etc ? They'll shoot me back (wardec) even if I do not initiate the first attack They'll attack my towers aswell They'll attack my sov also (if I have it) starting with disabling clone bays while we're being camped in our station (see what happend to Goonswarm Federation and it's allies) They'll do anything that takes to make our hisec/lowsec/nullsec life miserable, it's a war afterall What happends right now in EVE if I'm in the mood to start pirating on a hisec gate (F1+lolz) ? I'll get my ship killed (concorded) I'll get my sec-status lowered I will be allowed to dock within the same system where the crime was commited ? YES I will be allowed to use station services within the same system where the crime was commited ? YES I will be allowed to undock and warp freely to my next target within the same system where the crime was commited ? YES My sec status really hurts me ? NO My sec status really stops me from being an outlaw ? NO My victims have any sort of retaliation against me ? NO, I'll just undock - warp - F1, even if they camp me in station - doesn't matter, I'll just have my insta-undock or wait for my timers to go off, which are: Limited engagement timer <5 minutes Criminal timer <15 minutes Suspect timer <15 minutes Both of the above (1 & 2) will eventually expire within the same timeframe of 15 minutes If I'm a griefer, ganker, criminal ... CCP LOVES ME! It provides me everything I need to get back in a ganking ship warping to my next target, I can do whatever I want ... Gankers use bombers these days, allow covert cyno in hisec and allow them to drop on a target Pirating shouldn't be easy, it's fun, profitable but shouldn't be easy at all! If I'm a pirate, then I'm an outlaw - I shouldn't be allowed to use hisec-empire facilities, that would force me to make some planning, not just F1-F1-F1 which is stupid. Miners and traders work hard for their buck, it's profitable to me to blow them up ... If the suggesions above will be implemented, then ... it will be much more profitable to me to start roleplaying this game, not pew-pew - if we could have a "trade" window between two ships I would start bumping a ship which cargo I want, convo him and ask him to give it to me or face death, and that opens a whole new game about REAL PLAYER INTERACTION, there is NO interraction between two players if one decides to F1 the other guy - but if I talk with my victim ... I'm sure we can arrange something considering that I'm not playing for killboards but my own profit. Invest in roleplay techniques, give players the options, that would be a real sandbox where players start to interract with each other, not just playing for shiny killboards. NO station/gate bans for criminals will stop pirates ... but it will make pirating a real deal that no 7 days old caracter could do in hisec. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Dibz Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 83	Posted - 2016.07.26 09:41:33 - [6] - Quote It would be nice if they would remove the uncivil comments from a thread so the discussion can continue, instead of giving the trolls what they want by locking them and preventing everyone from having the discussion.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1931	Posted - 2016.07.26 09:45:35 - [7] - Quote Dibz wrote: It would be nice if they would remove the uncivil comments from a thread so the discussion can continue, instead of giving the trolls what they want by locking them and preventing everyone from having the discussion. Exactly, the circle jerk insults is their way of closing off any other point of view, it is disappointing to see a community manager fall for that. The key aspect is that the consequences to ganking are laughable, what was suggested I underlined above, these players will have to base out of citadels taht is fine they have the means to do just that. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 633	Posted - 2016.07.26 09:47:45 - [8] - Quote We can only hope Falcon hands out some bans this time around. How difficult is it to just let it go when there's been a direction from the Community Manager?
Maekchu Gunpoint Diplomacy 353	Posted - 2016.07.26 09:48:52 - [9] - Quote Dibz wrote: It would be nice if they would remove the uncivil comments from a thread so the discussion can continue, instead of giving the trolls what they want by locking them and preventing everyone from having the discussion. I will say that the current consequences are fine and that suicide ganking is in a good spot currently. If we where to take more penalties, CCP have to address issues like wardec dodging, extreme security while hauling in blockade runners etc. The game is extremely safe, if you know what you are doing. You will in turn say, that highsec needs to be more secure and gankers needs to be punished more severely. This is where the discussion stops. Nothing will be gained, because none of us accepts the arguments the other side gives. Which results in circle-jerking and just the same old arguments repeated over and over again. CCP have made their stance on the matter, no need to "discuss" it further since the discussion creates nothing constructive. Also, people having a different opinion than you is not a troll. But yeah, the world would be such an easy place to live in, if everyone would agree with what you said. CCP lock this thread already, I can't stop responding to these threads. I NEED HELP!
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1931	Posted - 2016.07.26 09:52:36 - [10] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: We can only hope Falcon hands out some bans this time around. How difficult is it to just let it go when there's been a direction from the Community Manager? That is your mindset isn't it, bans, stop the threads with insults, remove threads that don't meet your views. The valid point is that the consequences are not sufficient and the suggestion made is totally valid. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1931	Posted - 2016.07.26 09:54:02 - [11] - Quote Maekchu wrote: Dibz wrote: It would be nice if they would remove the uncivil comments from a thread so the discussion can continue, instead of giving the trolls what they want by locking them and preventing everyone from having the discussion. I will say that the current consequences are fine and that suicide ganking is in a good spot currently. If we where to take more penalties, CCP have to address issues like wardec dodging, extreme security while hauling in blockade runners etc. The game is extremely safe, if you know what you are doing. You will in turn say, that highsec needs to be more secure and gankers needs to be punished more severely. This is where the discussion stops. Nothing will be gained, because none of us accepts the arguments the other side gives. Which results in circle-jerking and just the same old arguments repeated over and over again. CCP have made their stance on the matter, no need to "discuss" it further since the discussion creates nothing constructive. Also, people having a different opinion than you is not a troll. But yeah, the world would be such an easy place to live in, if everyone would agree with what you said. CCP lock this thread already, I can't stop responding to these threads. I NEED HELP! The gankers have Citadels, they have an option, it changes it makes it more difficult for them, do you want a walk in the park or a challenge, that is the question, now those Vexor gankers have to have a Citadel, some skin in the game that can be blown up, changing things in hisec perhaps. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 633	Posted - 2016.07.26 09:55:41 - [12] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: We can only hope Falcon hands out some bans this time around. How difficult is it to just let it go when there's been a direction from the Community Manager? That is your mindset isn't it, bans, stop the threads with insults, remove threads that don't meet your views. The valid point is that the consequences are not sufficient and the suggestion made is totally valid. Sorry Drac. The only person here throwing insults is you. I posted one very neutral post in the original thread and wouldn't mind either way if it stayed open or was closed. But Falcon decided to close it. That should be the end of it. Continued opening of the issue at this point should draw bans. Give it a day or two. There'll be another thread.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17691	Posted - 2016.07.26 09:56:21 - [13] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: The valid point is that the consequences are not sufficient and the suggestion made is totally valid. When will they be?
Dibz Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 84	Posted - 2016.07.26 09:57:19 - [14] - Quote To be honest, it doesn't really make sense that a criminal can use all of the services offered in high security space. Why should they be able to? It's a good question. So far I've not seen anyone provide a reasonable answer.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1931	Posted - 2016.07.26 09:58:15 - [15] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: We can only hope Falcon hands out some bans this time around. How difficult is it to just let it go when there's been a direction from the Community Manager? That is your mindset isn't it, bans, stop the threads with insults, remove threads that don't meet your views. The valid point is that the consequences are not sufficient and the suggestion made is totally valid. Sorry Drac. The only person here throwing insults is you. I posted one very neutral post in the original thread and wouldn't mind either way if it stayed open or was closed. But Falcon decided to close it. That should be the end of it. Continued opening of the issue at this point should draw bans. Give it a day or two. There'll be another thread. So calling for me to be banned is what? The idea is sound, as gankers have citadels then locking them out of hisec NPC stations is a perfectly valid consequence. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 634	Posted - 2016.07.26 10:03:03 - [16] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: We can only hope Falcon hands out some bans this time around. How difficult is it to just let it go when there's been a direction from the Community Manager? That is your mindset isn't it, bans, stop the threads with insults, remove threads that don't meet your views. The valid point is that the consequences are not sufficient and the suggestion made is totally valid. Sorry Drac. The only person here throwing insults is you. I posted one very neutral post in the original thread and wouldn't mind either way if it stayed open or was closed. But Falcon decided to close it. That should be the end of it. Continued opening of the issue at this point should draw bans. Give it a day or two. There'll be another thread. So calling for me to be banned is what? An opinion. If we can't be mature enough to comply with a direct request from one of CCP's senior staff, then the consequences of that should be handed out to their fullest. Not an insult. Not directed at you specifically. Just an opinion about our maturity as a community to be too immature to discuss something civilly. This thread is unfortunateky turning into a good example of that, which was what Falcon asked us all to stop.
Dibz Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 84	Posted - 2016.07.26 10:06:04 - [17] - Quote Perhaps stations in high security space ought to refuse docking permission to pilots with a security rating below a particular level, a limitation which can be removed in return for payment of a fine.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17691	Posted - 2016.07.26 10:06:15 - [18] - Quote Dibz wrote: To be honest, it doesn't really make sense that a criminal can use all of the services offered in high security space. Why should they be able to? It's a good question. So far I've not seen anyone provide a reasonable answer. The empires don't care about what us pod pilots get up to against eachother. Plus it would kill most piracy in highsec, mightily damage lowsec pvp and severely hamper null and wormhole players.
Maekchu Gunpoint Diplomacy 355	Posted - 2016.07.26 10:06:30 - [19] - Quote Dibz wrote: To be honest, it doesn't really make sense that a criminal can use all of the services offered in high security space. Why should they be able to? It's a good question. So far I've not seen anyone provide a reasonable answer. Sure, there is no real reason. Just like there is no real reason for why people can so easily dodge a wardec. Or no reason to why highsec stations cannot be blown up. But you know what, I'll gladly take all the penalties you guys are promoting, if we in turn get rid of many of the safety mechanics you already have. I suppose that is fair, no?
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17073	Posted - 2016.07.26 10:08:57 - [20] - Quote No it isnt, what the hell is up with ye today, ye have been told to drop this , repeatedly. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1931	Posted - 2016.07.26 10:09:42 - [21] - Quote The consequences are insufficient in the view of a significant number of players, at one point I floated this idea myself, but thought it was too draconian, but with the arrival of citadels the idea has merit. Because what it does is force the gankers to have skin in the game, something that can be attacked or the owner told to stop them from docking. There is a consequence, this is what Eve is all about. I agreed that the player should have learnt from that loss, though I pointed out the issues that a new player has compared to an old salt like me and that the player had a choice on whether to suck it or find another game. But this issue is all about challenging game play and consequences. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 43	Posted - 2016.07.26 10:12:28 - [22] - Quote For what I saw so far there are two "factions" - Who thinks suicidal gankers gain too much money too easily and wardecs are exploited (the ganked / wardecced ones) -Who thinks suicidal ganking is good and wardecs are good too ( gankers / wardeccers ) If you see how much gankers gain and how much wardeccers wardec I'm for giving reason to the first group. The latter has much to lose so they are strongly against any change... Developers tend to close every discussion regarding the topic.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1931	Posted - 2016.07.26 10:13:19 - [23] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dibz wrote: To be honest, it doesn't really make sense that a criminal can use all of the services offered in high security space. Why should they be able to? It's a good question. So far I've not seen anyone provide a reasonable answer. The empires don't care about what us pod pilots get up to against eachother. Plus it would kill most piracy in highsec, mightily damage lowsec pvp and severely hamper null and wormhole players. So what is a security status for if they are not bothered? COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Dibz Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 86	Posted - 2016.07.26 10:13:56 - [24] - Quote Maekchu wrote: Dibz wrote: To be honest, it doesn't really make sense that a criminal can use all of the services offered in high security space. Why should they be able to? It's a good question. So far I've not seen anyone provide a reasonable answer. Sure, there is no real reason. Just like there is no real reason for why people can so easily dodge a wardec. Or no reason to why highsec stations cannot be blown up. But you know what, I'll gladly take all the penalties you guys are promoting, if we in turn get rid of many of the safety mechanics you already have. I suppose that is fair, no? Well, I personally think that the wardec and bounty systems be rolled into one system, whereby both individuals and corporations can be subjected to a wardec, even individuals in an NPC corporation. With reasonable restrictions to prevent abuse of the system.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1931	Posted - 2016.07.26 10:15:00 - [25] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: For what I saw so far there are two "factions" - Who thinks suicidal gankers gain too much money too easily and wardecs are exploited (the ganked / wardecced ones) -Who thinks suicidal ganking is good and wardecs are good too ( gankers / wardeccers ) If you see how much gankers gain and how much wardeccers wardec I'm for giving reason to the first group. The latter has much to lose so they are strongly against any change... Developers tend to close every discussion regarding the topic. But not everyone is so black and white, I for one accept ganking and war decs, my focus is on the fun part and game balance. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Maekchu Gunpoint Diplomacy 355	Posted - 2016.07.26 10:16:19 - [26] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: But this issue is all about challenging game play and consequences. So more safety, is challenging gameplay and consequences for haulers? Let's not forget, that the original locked thread was all about a T1 industrial flying around with way too much cargo. So how is removing gankers, adding consequence to the hauler for their actions? Again, I think most gankers are willing to take bigger restrictions to their gameplay, if you in turn provide with a viable solution to the problem of highsec having no consequence and no risk. If you remove gankers, what consequence should there be for taking a T1 industrial out with 1B in cargo? Currently, it makes sense cause the hunt for profit creates at least some risk to hauling with too much cargo, but remove that factor and what do you have left?
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17073	Posted - 2016.07.26 10:16:44 - [27] - Quote Citadels are not the only conciquence in the game, nor are they the only skin, not that the bears would be organised to atteck one and see it through, this would be followed by a "gankers citadels should be attackable any time" demand. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Eladanus White Sun Enterprises 48	Posted - 2016.07.26 10:18:42 - [28] - Quote Can you imagine the outrage if those calling for harsher punishment for criminals had joined a game where ganking was outlawed, but some people were asking for punishments to be relaxed? The simple fact is that we all joined a game where we knew the rules, we knew what it was that separated EVE from the other risk-free MMOs. Getting ganked is frustrating, I know, but theirs is just as legitimate a playstyle as yours, and trying to squeeze out an important part of the game's culture and economy wouldn't have a good effect.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1932	Posted - 2016.07.26 10:19:04 - [29] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Citadels are not the only conciquence in the game, nor are they the only skin, not that the bears would be organised to atteck one and see it through, this would be followed by a "gankers citadels should be attackable any time" demand. Don't be silly, that is a ridiculous suggestion, I will just have to watch the guys see what they use and tell the player who owns it no access to these people and if they did not comply, bang Citadel gets taken out. The current setup is pretty fine in my view for great content. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1932	Posted - 2016.07.26 10:19:54 - [30] - Quote Eladanus wrote: Can you imagine the outrage if those calling for harsher punishment for criminals had joined a game where ganking was outlawed, but some people were asking for punishments to be relaxed? The simple fact is that we all joined a game where we knew the rules, we knew what it was that separated EVE from the other risk-free MMOs. Getting ganked is frustrating, I know, but theirs is just as legitimate a playstyle as yours, and trying to squeeze out an important part of the game's culture and economy wouldn't have a good effect. LOL, I stopped playing Elite Dangerous because police ships flew in front of my guns and I got blown up for it... Do you want to try again? COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.

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