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Majin82 Caldari g guild	Posted - 2007.03.09 23:36:00 - [1] This is a thread about the Kinetic Bonus that Caldari missiles ships get and how I consider it a wasted Bonus. Before you say that any Bonus that helps missiles in other areas will unbalance them and make Caldari too powerful, look at the Raven. ItÆs the only ship we have that doesnÆt have a Kinetic Bonus and since the T2 ammo nerf, itÆs hard to keep a straight face and say itÆs overpowered. I think itÆs time we got a new Bonus that replaced Kinetic and helped out our missiles overall. The ability to change ammo type on the fly doesnÆt make up for the fact all our missile ships, minus the Raven, are locked into using Kinetic or forfeit a bonus all together. Look at how many ships are locked into using Kinetic Missiles: Kestrel Condor Heron Crow Hawk Manticore Rook Flycatcher Caracal Cerberus Drake NightHawk Phoenix Leviathan ThatÆs 14 ships, even the fracking Titan, that need to use kinetic or give up a Bonus. What if we changed the Kinetic Bonus to a useful bonus? Rate of Fire is a very useful bonus, that canÆt make missiles way too powerful like Damage increase would. Would help bring our DPS closer to all the other races. Rather then flame me, why not add to the thread and tell me what you think a better bonus then Kinetic would be that wouldnÆt make Missiles too powerful. Remember not everyone has missile specialization 5 and not every ship can have all the lows filled with BCU IIÆs. Which is the reason I think ROF is a good replacement. ------------------------------------- The difference between a Pirate and an Anti-Pirate is that an Anti-Pirate fights ships fitted with guns! Passive Drake For The Win
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2007.03.09 23:40:00 - [2] Edited by: dalman on 09/03/2007 23:38:54 Yea, cause it's not like every race is "tied" to it's damage type You get a yes from me if CCP could make different missiles (the way drones are), but after soon 4 years I wouldn't have my hopes that high... Originally by: Majin82 Rate of Fire is a very useful bonus, that canÆt make missiles way too powerful like Damage increase would. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Phaedruss	Posted - 2007.03.09 23:45:00 - [3] Try flying Amarr for a day
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.03.09 23:46:00 - [4] I would say I'd scream if caldari got a RoF bonus but it would mean you get more caldari players and I do so love killing caldari. I do however think it will make them to overpowered and cannot think of a better bonus than kinetic. Every other race is tied down to a damage type as well. (gallente and minnie less so but amarr a lot more so. Look at amarr then maybe consider changing caldari.
Majin82 Caldari g guild	Posted - 2007.03.09 23:47:00 - [5] Originally by: dalman Edited by: dalman on 09/03/2007 23:38:54 Yea, cause it's not like every race is "tied" to it's damage type You get a yes from me if CCP could make different missiles (the way drones are), but after soon 4 years I wouldn't have my hopes that high... Originally by: Majin82 Rate of Fire is a very useful bonus, that canÆt make missiles way too powerful like Damage increase would. 1) Isn't that the point of Missiles, your not tied to a damage type? Also What race has to give up a bonus to use a different ammo type? 2) My hopes are low, I know it's not likely to happen. 3) ROF at at 5% (25%) may be a bit too much for some ships, so make it 3.5% (17.5%) on ships like the Drake if it's overpowering. ------------------------------------- The difference between a Pirate and an Anti-Pirate is that an Anti-Pirate fights ships fitted with guns! Passive Drake For The Win
Majin82 Caldari g guild	Posted - 2007.03.09 23:49:00 - [6] Originally by: Morreia Look at amarr then maybe consider changing caldari. Caldari isn't better then Amarr Amarr is worse then every other race I say shine Caldari BUFF AMARR ------------------------------------- The difference between a Pirate and an Anti-Pirate is that an Anti-Pirate fights ships fitted with guns! Passive Drake For The Win
korrey Taurus Inc	Posted - 2007.03.10 00:32:00 - [7] Get this, theres 21 ships in the Amarr fleet that lose a bonus even when using their weapons of choice Cap reduction bonus is the worst bonus you could get, its a built in loss of a bonus. At least using your Kinetic missiles has an advantage, most of the time its better on the cap if amarr use autocannons. side note: when has caldari ever lacked playerbase? Amarr are stuck with EM/Thermal damage, and most our ships have 1 uselss bonus. Order of Operations- 1. Gallente 2. Caldari 3. Minmatar 4. Minmatar Sewage 5. Amarr ----------- 24.01.06 Small patch that addresses some minor balancing issues 1) All minmatar pilots have been deleted
Angus McLean Gallente Divinity Trials	Posted - 2007.03.10 00:34:00 - [8] "Caldari Missile Ship Bonus Useful?" New topic "Amarr Ships Useless" Oh wait...this is an already commonly known fact ---------------- Freedom Of Speech Band of Brothers T-shirt
Angus McLean Gallente Divinity Trials	Posted - 2007.03.10 00:35:00 - [9] Oh and I do believe that calculations show- RoF bonus leads to greated DPS than an outright Damage boost. Take for example, The harbinger originally had an RoF bonus, but due to issues it got a damage bonus. It now has about 5% less damage. ---------------- Freedom Of Speech Band of Brothers T-shirt
Shismo	Posted - 2007.03.10 00:43:00 - [10] missile velocity bonus.

Slaptastic	Posted - 2007.03.10 00:48:00 - [11] Originally by: Shismo missile velocity bonus. Missile Velocity would be handy, but some ships that have the kinetic bonus and then get that bonus would be able to shoot far too far. (Cerberus comes to mind.) Cerberus can already shoot 100km+ with missiles, this new bonus would increase that two-fold. (Not really, but still farther than should be.)
Deious Troeyd Minmatar Kalear Fleet Systems	Posted - 2007.03.10 00:58:00 - [12] Edited by: Deious Troeyd on 10/03/2007 00:59:35 Everone must sacrifice damage to vary damage type. Amarr... well they cant vary damage type at all, unless they use non-racial weapons (sacrificing ALOT of damage) Gallente must sacrifice drone damage to deal anything barring thermal (explosive is still good, but tbh drone damage should be brought in line and Drone boats given racial damage bonus). Minmatar must reduce total DPS output to switch down from EMP to any other ammo (usually Phased Plasma) and take a HUGE range hit when switching down from Barrage (T2 minmatar cannot vary damage type). With Artillery the problem gets even stranger that we are locked to damage types by range Caldari, like everyone else, take a damage hit when switching from kinetic. Of course you are the only race able to pick any damage type at t2 and maintain competitive DPS output. Another thing you don't mention is that everyone elses racial missile boats (frigates and their stealth bomber versions) are also locked into their racial damage. The only comparable weapons systems at t2 are drones, and an Ogre II deals 40% more damage than a Praetor II... suddenly your 25% damage hit to pick any damage type isnt looking so bad (of course Praetors are faster and more accurate but.. when was the last time you witnessed someone using them ? If you need to hit undersize targets you use Berzerkers anyway).
Sovy Kurosei Amarr Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.10 01:28:00 - [13] Originally by: Majin82 It’s the only ship we have that doesn’t have a Kinetic Bonus and since the T2 ammo nerf, it’s hard to keep a straight face and say it’s overpowered. The Raven is balanced around six launcher slots. Originally by: Majin82 I think it’s time we got a new Bonus that replaced Kinetic and helped out our missiles overall. No. Originally by: Majin82 Rather then flame me, why not add to the thread and tell me what you think a better bonus then Kinetic would be that wouldn’t make Missiles too powerful. It is fine. ___________________ Feel free to contact me in-game.
Shismo	Posted - 2007.03.10 02:24:00 - [14] Originally by: Slaptastic Originally by: Shismo missile velocity bonus. Missile Velocity would be handy, but some ships that have the kinetic bonus and then get that bonus would be able to shoot far too far. (Cerberus comes to mind.) Cerberus can already shoot 100km+ with missiles, this new bonus would increase that two-fold. (Not really, but still farther than should be.) Maybe they could also have a flight time reduction. Both the bonus and reduction would work after all other modifyers where considered, so they would have the effect of not changing missile range at all but alowing missiles to get to their target faster, which is a primary complaint of missiles. (that they arent very useful beyond short ranges). The lowering of kinetic missile dps would be in part countered by persons more willinigly switching out their missiles for the situation at hand. And while it would still technicaly be an overall dps loss, i dont think people would complain if missiles where getting to their targets faster. But im sure somebody would always complain regardless.
Neuromandis EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.03.10 02:24:00 - [15] Edited by: Neuromandis on 10/03/2007 02:23:01 Originally by: Deious Troeyd ... Gallente must sacrifice drone damage to deal anything barring thermal (explosive is still good, but tbh drone damage should be brought in line and Drone boats given racial damage bonus). ... The only comparable weapons systems at t2 are drones, and an Ogre II deals 40% more damage than a Praetor II... suddenly your 25% damage hit to pick any damage type isnt looking so bad (of course Praetors are faster and more accurate but.. when was the last time you witnessed someone using them ? If you need to hit undersize targets you use Berzerkers anyway). Actually, you have a very good point there. Actually, it seems something is indeed NOT in order, Let me explain... Funny as it may sound at first, CCP seems to have a direct analogy between missiles and drones. They have in common the following: a) Ability to choose any kind of damage b) Secondary weapons unless used on specialized ships, but most ships can use them c) Even in non-specialized ships, races that favor them (caldari and gallente) can use more of them (compare hyperion/rokh dronebays, hyperion/rokh missile slots, whatever) d) The races that favor them are the two hybrid races. e) They both do delayed damage (backloaded) but generally "safe" damage due to mechanics (generally difficult -but not impossible- to avoid their damage) f) There is an attempt to make them use their respective race's relevant "primary damage" (kinetic for Caldari, thermal for Gallente) The problem is this f), and how it is done: The drones are balanced towards Gallente thermal damage, but at weapon level (hobs do more damage than acolytes). Missiles are balanced at ship level: caracal, kestrel et.c. have bonus to kinetic missiles only. So, drones are the same for all races, but missiles are different for each. Strange isn't it? Also not very balanced, and creates some discrepancies. For example, an Amarr missile boat does more damage with EM missiles, but an Amarr drone boat still does more Thermal with drones. I would favor something to the effect of the following to address the OP: 1) Give the same damage balance as drones to missiles, but backwards (i.e. kinetic more than thermal more than em and explosive), and make all missile bonuses rof ones That would address the OP quite fine at irst glance. It would also be in keeping with racial weapon balance, i.e. no matter what you fit an autocannon to, it still does the same damage types, and a hobgoblin is the most damaging light drone for everyone using it. That would make the bloodclaw the best heavy missile for everyone too. The only ship I can think of that would have a problem with that is the Raven. 2) Make drones do the same amount of damage and give Gallente droneships a bonus to thermal drone damage. That would help everyone using drones, except the Gallente (that would **** them off) at first glance, because boiling everything down it would still be the same thing - hobs/warriors/ogres would still do the same damage as today, and that's their usual weapon anyway. 3) Remove all damage-specific bonuses. That would make everyone happy, but it does not seem to be CCP's favor to give completely damage-neutral weapons to everyone.
Deious Troeyd Minmatar Kalear Fleet Systems	Posted - 2007.03.10 02:47:00 - [16] Its variety vs consistancy really.. although it would be nice to have more different kinds of drones within a single class of drones, so lighter heavies that deal less damage but are faster/better tracking.. same with missiles (without having to go t2). Imo it would have been better if missiles never turned into a primary weapon system in the first place.. however it should be noted that since the introduction of the Rokh, the Drake is the only top tier missile primary Caldari warship.
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.03.10 03:48:00 - [17] The comparison to drones isn't really a fair one. Yes, you have a built-in "bonus" to thermal damage with drones, but the other drone types actually have their own advantages to compensate for the lower dps. For example, even if I don't like the explosive damage type, I would use Warrior IIs because they have the best speed and tracking to deal with interceptors. But there's nothing like this with missiles, every stat is exactly the same.
Sovy Kurosei Amarr Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.10 03:56:00 - [18] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Yes, you have a built-in "bonus" to thermal damage with drones, but the other drone types actually have their own advantages to compensate for the lower dps. What about the Amarr drones? What is their advantage? Price? ___________________ Feel free to contact me in-game.
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.03.10 04:18:00 - [19] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 10/03/2007 04:15:33 Originally by: Sovy Kurosei Originally by: Merin Ryskin Yes, you have a built-in "bonus" to thermal damage with drones, but the other drone types actually have their own advantages to compensate for the lower dps. What about the Amarr drones? What is their advantage? Price? Amarr are irrelevant to this discussion. CCP can't afford to balance the game just for the two Amarr players. To keep the majority happy, some sacrifices just have to be made. But the point is still true: of the three important drone types you do have some variation in non-damage stats. If we are supposed to balance missiles like drones, there should be something better about the non-kinetic missiles. Instead, non-kinetic missiles are inferior in every way on most Caldari ships.
Jackal79	Posted - 2007.03.10 05:57:00 - [20] Look at the mymidon - 10% bonus to ALL drone damage per level. You can go on and say "yeah thermal drones do more DPS, the bonus is just compensating for the other drone's weakness". But its FREAKING 10% PER LEVEL!!! It BY FAR outdamages the caldari equivelent (drake) WITHOUT fitting guns! imo caldari ships should get 5% bonus to missile damage per level - it reflects the nature of missiles more (they hurt) and the DPS increase is the same as with ROF bonus of 5%. I don't think caldari ships should outdamage the other races - they should remain a low DPS, heavy tank race, but I do think the gap shouldn't be as big as it is now. Also, WTF -> why do alot of armor tanking gallente ships shield tank better than caldari ships specifically for shield tanking? Thats kinda jacked. Caldari should inherently have better tanks than min/gallante, min/gallente should have inherently higher DPS.

Gorion Wassenar Caldari Tsurokigaarai	Posted - 2007.03.10 06:38:00 - [21] The missiles damage should be skewed just as Drone damage is skewed to favor Thermal damage. Kinetic missiles should do more damage then the other missiles and the ship bonuses should be something else then a specific damage bonus. ----- results may vary
Sovy Kurosei Amarr Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.10 07:09:00 - [22] Originally by: Jackal79 Look at the mymidon - 10% bonus to ALL drone damage per level. You can go on and say "yeah thermal drones do more DPS, the bonus is just compensating for the other drone's weakness". But its FREAKING 10% PER LEVEL!!! It BY FAR outdamages the caldari equivelent (drake) WITHOUT fitting guns! The myrmidon only has enough room for five heavy drones and no reserves. If those go then the DPS of the ship would drop to tier two cruiser levels. ___________________ Feel free to contact me in-game or join my public channel THERI-Public.
Rania Serlia World Order The Imperial Order	Posted - 2007.03.10 07:09:00 - [23] Edited by: Rania Serlia on 10/03/2007 07:08:30 Originally by: Deious Troeyd ... Gallente must sacrifice drone damage to deal anything barring thermal (explosive is still good, but tbh drone damage should be brought in line and Drone boats given racial damage bonus)... If arbitrator hull ships had a damage bonus to only EM drones without them gettig a hefty buff first(T2 are outdamaged by T1 thermal, mind), I'd have to sell this character and start over, or do some radical retraining. EDIT: And I feel the kinetic bonus is fine, just to be on subject. Missiles are distinct from drones in a number of ways, each variety of drone has good and bad points(aside from aforementioned EM drones), where missiles are just vanila sans damage. Racial missiles would be nice, such as the minmatar missiles having better precision and explosion velocity, the caldari missiles having say, range, gallente missiles would be possibly slightly more damaging, amarr missiles would suck...or something like that, at least. I find current missiles somewhat boring.
Snikkt Time Cube Syndicate Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.10 07:39:00 - [24] Another thing I think people are missing is, missiles can't be shot down. (Don't you dare mention defenders) Drones can, and they're alot more expensive then missiles. ------------------- My opinions (ie, all of my posting here) are not my corporations. Nor should it be taken as such.
Gorion Wassenar Caldari Tsurokigaarai	Posted - 2007.03.10 07:47:00 - [25] Drones also don't use CPU or Powergrid or take up High slots. Seems fair to me..... ----- results may vary
Sovy Kurosei Amarr Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.10 07:58:00 - [26] Originally by: Gorion Wassenar Drones also don't use CPU or Powergrid or take up High slots. Seems fair to me..... Drone ships usually have one less slot compared to other ships of the same class and tier. ___________________ Feel free to contact me in-game or join my public channel THERI-Public.
J Valkor Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.03.10 08:09:00 - [27] The missile damage is the only lock we have. Most other races don't get even that. Enjoy it.
Majin82 Caldari g guild	Posted - 2007.03.10 16:08:00 - [28] Edited by: Majin82 on 10/03/2007 15:58:09 Velocity bonus of 10% per level would make missile ships more effective in fleet battles and long ranges, but the DPS would still be far lower then every other weapon system. I think we need to leave Long Range to instant hit weapons. I still think a ROF bonus of 5% per level is the way to go. At level 5 thatÆs 25% increase in ROF. I like the idea of (with maxed skills) being able to deal DPS more inline with the other races, but at lower levels not causing Missiles to have a large advantage. Here is a Drake in quickfit, which I loaded up with a Rocket Launcher II, Standard Launcher II, Assault Launcher II, Heavy Assault Launcher II and Heavy Launcher II and a Dread Guristas Heavy to compare the difference in ROF with Max Missiles skills (Specialization 5 on each Launcher, Rapid Launch 5). Showing before 25% maxed bonus to ROF and after, letÆs see how much the bonus helps. Keep in mind the amount of SPÆs needed for Max Skills is a lot; also each missile and launcher has a different role and use. Launcher Type ---Default---Before 25% ---After 25% Rocket---3.2/s---2.2/s---1.65/s Standard ---12/s---8.26/s---6.2/s Assault---9.6/s---6.61/s---4.96/s Heavy Assault ---6.4/s---4.9/s---3.67/s Heavy---12/s---8.26/s---6.2/s DG Heavy ---10.5/s---8.03/s---6.02/s That doesnÆt look too outrages at all now does it? With maxed out skills in areas that increase ROF of launchers even with a 25% bonus to ROF, they are not even 50% faster! Now lets load some BCU IIÆs in the lows and see what happens. Launcher Type ---After 25% ---1 BCU II ---2 BCU II ---3 BCU II ---4 BCU II Rocket ---1.65/s---1.48/s---1.34/s---1.26/s---1.23/s Standard ---6.2/s---5.55/s---5.04/s---4.74/s---4.6/s Assault---4.96/s---4.44/s---4.03/s---3.79/s---3.68/s Heavy Assault ---3.67/s---3.29/s---2.99/s---2.81/s---2.72/s Heavy---6.2/s---5.55/s---5.04/s---4.74/s---4.6/s DG Heavy ---6.02/s---5.39/s---4.9/s---4.61/s4.47/s As you can see stacking nerf starts to make the increase drop down. Heavy Missiles for example: ROF increased by .65 seconds with 1 BCU II. With 4, ROF increased by 1.6 seconds total. So with Maxed skills, a ROF Bonus of 25% and 4 BCU IIÆs you are shooting 7.4 seconds faster then the default ROF. But lets add a ZM1000 implant in the picture just for the extreme of extreme effect. Another 5% ROF. Launcher Type ---After 25% ---4 BCU II ---ZM 1000 Rocket ---1.65/s---1.23/s---1.14/s Standard --- 6.2/s---4.6/s---4.29/s Assault---4.96/s---3.68/s---3.43/s Heavy Assault ---3.67/s---2.72/s---2.54/s Heavy---6.2/s---4.6/s---4.29/s DG Heavy ---6.02/s---4.47/s---4.17/s I am not trying to show the DPS here, as I know ROF is only 1 part of DPS. I am just trying to show solid numbers for maxed skills if the Kinetic Bonus was replaced with a 5% ROF bonus. IMHO Rate of Fire should replace 5% Kinetic Bonus on all Caldari Missile ships. ------------------------------------- The difference between a Pirate and an Anti-Pirate is that an Anti-Pirate fights ships fitted with guns! Passive Drake For The Win
babylonstew Caldari Caldari Scouting and Intel Group Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.10 16:44:00 - [29] Originally by: Sovy Kurosei Originally by: Gorion Wassenar Drones also don't use CPU or Powergrid or take up High slots. Seems fair to me..... Drone ships usually have one less slot compared to other ships of the same class and tier. drone frigs are the only frigs in game with bonuses to frig, cruiser and bs weapons systems same for drone cruisers same for drone bc's same for drone bs funny how the raven lost its bonus to ALL missile types, but for example, the domi, still gets a damage bonus to frig, cruiser and bs weapon systems tho. not whining here, just thought id point that out :) ------ snip please keep sigs EVE-related. Contact [email protected] if you have any further questions - Karass Sayfo CCp nerfed my sig and all i got was this crummy message ^^^
Dahak2150 Chaos Monkeys	Posted - 2007.03.10 18:03:00 - [30] From a PVE standpoint the kinetic bonus is fine. -Guristas, Serpentis, and Mordu's are already weakest to kinetic -At BC IV most angel ships take more damage from kinetics than explosives -At BC IV Mercenary ships take more damage from kinetics than thermals This leaves only Rogue Drones, Bloods, and Sansha's for you to use EM against, meaning that even if you don't vary your damage you still benefit from the kinetic bonus. ---------------- If you're on IE, pretend this is transparent while you get a browser that supports .png.



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