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The Worst Problems and Imbalances in Eve

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Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.03.12 05:19:00 - [1] Edited by: Rells on 12/03/2007 05:21:10 First of all let me ask those on this thread to try to discuss the issues in this thread in an adult manner; there is no reason we cant have a healthy debate without resorting to flaming or other silly things. Second of all, this thread may be somewhat long but I ask the reader to please read all of the original posts before replying. Finally, the spirit of the thread is to fix Eve, not advertise other games. If you find other games more entertaining, please go to them and have fun and let us work on this game. However much I enjoy Eve, there are a number of problems with the game that I see. Some of them affect me directly while others affect associates, competitors or friends of mine. Still more I see as a long term problem. I have made this thread to lay all the cards, as I see them, on the table for discussion. Corp Interface: As I have said many times, the corp interface is total garbage. It seems like CCP is actually ACTIVELY trying to support the corp thieves and introduce harmful drama into the game rather than have the game focus on galactic events. One begins to wonder if they sit around the table saying "Well lets fix the corp interface" and another dev speaks up and says, "No way, then it would be harder fro scammers, corp thieves and alt spys to work." The problems in that interface lead to mistrust and harmful actions that cause entire corps to leave the game. They lead also to unfortunate things such as the fact that I can only have a couple builders to do work in my corp, all of the other builders are frozen out because it would be STUPID for me to give that many people access to an unlogged, unsecurable hangar. User interface: There are so many bugs with the user interface that it just boggles the mind. CCP has yet to design a user interface that is customizable like those of other games. We would all love to have an interface that jsut worked 90% of the time, allowed us to organize our hangars and so on. This is not to mention the GOBS of overview bugs and other bugs in the client. I wish that CCP would devote some time from putting in new content to fixing the corp and user UI. Speed Battleships and Battlecrusers: This includes the Typhoon and Dominix and any other ship you can get up to ridiculous speeds. The latest news we have on the issues is that developers are wishy washy on how to fix them, not wanting to gimp people who have invested in a set of snakes. This is just preposterous. Jamming was nerfed because the Jamming, Nossing, Dominix was overpowered. The resulting creation is not just overpowered, its ridiculous. A nanophoon outruns drones, missiles and flys too fast to be tracked by guns. It uses drones, torpedoes, has the HP of a battleship and sports 4 heavy nos. The only things that can catch it (other than another nanophoon) is an interceptor and they don't have a chance against 4 heavy nos. The only way you can catch them without another nanophoon is if the pilot makes a foolish mistake such as undocking without intel or failing to take out that paper thin recon attempting to web it. What is more, its not that every race can field a nano battleship. Only 2 races can do it effectively. The game is becaomming so horribly imbalanced that Domis and Typhoons are just "The uber sword of doom" that we so despise from other games. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.03.12 05:20:00 - [2] Edited by: Rells on 12/03/2007 05:19:58 Amarr Ships: They have been so bad for far too long. A new look needs to be taken at the Amarr ships and their roles in fleets. With all of EWAR being mid slot modules, the Amarr ships really get the shaft. Also their bonuses basically add up to "at level 5 you will actually be able to use your guns efficiently." The Abadon is a nice ship but the rest of the amarr ships are horribly off target with the rest of eve. Titan Superweapons: Although I have not been directly affected by this, it seems rediculous that one ship with one pulse can take out a whole fleet. The whole thing that makes PVP in Eve great is that you don't have to find the "Uber Sword of Doom" in order to be effective in PvP. In fact, the Titan is the uber sword of doom. Furthermore, it has been told to me that titans can use a super weapon through a cyno field without even being there. The ship can not be warp scrambled or pinned down. It cant be jammed or stopped. If you took a fleet of dreads and cyno them in on the thing, it can merely cyno away or warp away and nothing can stop it. To date the only titans killed have been done so by exploiting a bug in the game (shooting a wreck) and by treachery against a LOGGED OFF titan. Anything that can only be killed in that manner is wrong. The concept of the titan should ring WRONG to everyone in the Eve legacy. The same goes for mother ships. The argument that it takes a lot of ice to use a super weapon is just ridiculous in an MMOG where there are people playing all day just mining ICE for the super weapon. The argument that titans and motherships take a lot of isk to build is just stupid in a game where people bid the price of a titan for a single tech 2 BPO and CAN PAY IT. Money in any MMOG is water and there are people in Eve that have been made stupid rich by the BPO lottery. Tech 2 BPO Lottery: The effects of this may never go away even when the lottery does. There is a massive gap in the difference between those that have had these BPOs and those that haven't. The principal large alliances are powered on this money and those new to the scheme can never compete with that kind of finances. With the revelation of cheating by the devs and their consequent extremely weak response, the cheating has been tacitly accepted and debate suppressed. That aside, those that have those BPOs have made a fortune off the rest of the game. The effects are that they have the money to build the "Uber sword of doom" more times than others. The devs need to provide some way for hard working players to cat Carrier Jumping of Supplies: Ahh we get even more controversial here. The point of the carrier is to be a combat ship, not a glorified hauler. The ability to bypass gates makes the possibility of economic warfare against a corp that has a lot of money is about 0. You can not send roving gangs to deal with their supply lines and cut off their fuel. The art of tactical warfare is to employ strategy, not brute force. To cut the logistics and the supply lines and so on. When carriers can haul a month's worth of fuel and cyno right on top of the tower and then out to empire without touching a gate, it renders warfare to nothing but brute force. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.03.12 05:20:00 - [3] Edited by: Rells on 12/03/2007 05:21:58 Edited by: Rells on 12/03/2007 05:19:41 I remember watching the first alliance tournament and being disgusted with the fact that it was a show of nothing more than brute force. THe winner had the most skill points, the best tank and the best damage. Gone were ewar tactics, skills at piloting, tactics and strategy. Again, the "uber sword of doom" rears its ugly head. Alliance wars are now like that. All you can do is kill POSes and put them up. You cant cut supply lines or interfere with the ability to bring in material. You cant even use your ewar against titans, motherships and dreads in siege mode. Alliances are using carriers as Iteron MK10s and nothing short of killing the POS can stop them. People can mine the ice in empire and jump it in. Yes we do too. Now we can jump everything in that we want with absolutely 0 risk. Cyno in low sec, cyno right on the station. Done. Undocumented Absences: Ever spend weeks in eve looking for things that arent even in the game yet but seem like they should be? Is it too much to ask to have a web page with "not in game" lists? Is it also too much to ask to have a user accessible bug database that we can use to check to see if a certain thing is a user reported bug or not? Exploits can be easily hidden by such a bug reporting mechanism. I have user bug trackers for all my products in my company, why cant an MMOG do the same thing? Conclusion: I think CCP needs to take a step back and address some of these foolish things in the game before coming out with new content. I would like to see them devote entire dev cycles to re-balancing the game which was horribly upset by nanophoons, titans and the BPO lottery. I don't want to see more complexes or mini-careers or ships but a company committed to a well balanced game. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
SumDum Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.12 05:22:00 - [4] Do I wait for you to finish? Lol! How to pwn
Neveren Caldari Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.12 05:24:00 - [5] Preach on! Cap ships since they first came out have been glorified haulers.. why risk fueling a pos to anything but somthing that can Pop in the fore field safe and sound, and pop out without a worry. What can be changed? Im not sure, Ships need cargo space for fuel.. Either make fuel rediculously small and take away the ships space.. or make it use less fuel, and take away space. Shrug STC recruiting!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.03.12 05:27:00 - [6] Originally by: Neveren Preach on! Cap ships since they first came out have been glorified haulers.. why risk fueling a pos to anything but somthing that can Pop in the fore field safe and sound, and pop out without a worry. What can be changed? Im not sure, Ships need cargo space for fuel.. Either make fuel rediculously small and take away the ships space.. or make it use less fuel, and take away space. Shrug Or make a cargo hold specifically for fuel, make it impossible to put haulers in carriers and make minerals and ice require cans that can not be put inside cyno ships. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.12 05:29:00 - [7] Originally by: Rells Originally by: Neveren Preach on! Cap ships since they first came out have been glorified haulers.. why risk fueling a pos to anything but somthing that can Pop in the fore field safe and sound, and pop out without a worry. What can be changed? Im not sure, Ships need cargo space for fuel.. Either make fuel rediculously small and take away the ships space.. or make it use less fuel, and take away space. Shrug Or make a cargo hold specifically for fuel, make it impossible to put haulers in carriers and make minerals and ice require cans that can not be put inside cyno ships. If you attempt to activate your jump drive with these items in your cargo you may explode - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.03.12 05:29:00 - [8] Nothing I haven't heard before many times, nothing I disagree with, all packed up in a short, concise package. There's really nothing more to say about the subject that hasn't been said hundred times before. As everything that has any negative conotation whatsoever to the abilities of CCP staff, I fully expect the flame brigade to take over "explaining" how you should just shut up and play the game or quit, telling you there are many other pressing matters to attend to (like, what, no idea, because everything that's "broken" in any way seems to be "not a pressing matter"), supporting CCP in a blind fanboy rage with complete disregard of the actual gravity of the issues. Welcome to "Cassandra Club", the place where people who have a clue get ignored (at best). _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Brokeback Jim	Posted - 2007.03.12 05:39:00 - [9] Nice list. I don't see anything changing, though. There is a growing sentiment that SP should make you better then an opponent, and things like a Titan and the cap ships only strengthen the belief.... So, I doubt things'll change until people start leaving..if then.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.03.12 05:41:00 - [10] Originally by: Brokeback Jim Nice list. I don't see anything changing, though. There is a growing sentiment that SP should make you better then an opponent, and things like a Titan and the cap ships only strengthen the belief.... So, I doubt things'll change until people start leaving..if then. SP should enable you to do more. But the game should not come down to an SP war. Primarily it should be PLAYER SKILLS that determine the outcome of the fight. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?

SumDum Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.12 05:48:00 - [11] Originally by: Rells SP should enable you to do more. But the game should not come down to an SP war. Primarily it should be PLAYER SKILLS that determine the outcome of the fight. Mos def. The basic problem with MMO's though is that when the devs try to fix one thing, they get complaints that something was nerfed. When they try to cater to someone else, they get it from the other side. You cant' satisfy everyone all the time. I think there is a saying somewhere similar to that. I think they need to start comparing lists the people compile, like this, and compare them to each other. Find out which nail sticks out the furthest and pounds that one in first. Just start working on game balance across the board, and people will stop leaving Eve. I have left Eve twice before, for almost 2 years the last time. After awhile, you just get tired of them waiting to fix, what is otherwise the perfect game, and you just leave and go find something else. Something about Eve always brings me back, and usually it is people telling me that CCP fixed a bunch of stuff. I get back, what do I find? Most of the biggest problems in the game are still there. How to pwn
Depp Knight Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.12 06:19:00 - [12] Everything you have said has been said before. No more threads are needed. Also learn your facts, wreck exploit wasnt involed in a titan kill.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.03.12 06:24:00 - [13] Edited by: Rells on 12/03/2007 06:21:24 Originally by: Depp Knight Everything you have said has been said before. No more threads are needed. Also learn your facts, wreck exploit wasnt involed in a titan kill. I cant be bothered to believe a word out of the mouth of a BoB pilot. I may be off in that ONE fact but that doesnt change the rest of the content of the rest of the thread, including the little bit about your alliance's activities and "relationships" with certain members of the powers that be. The fact that these things have not been fixed necessitate their mention once more. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.03.12 06:24:00 - [14] Originally by: Depp Knight Everything you have said has been said before. No more threads are needed. right, wrong _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
SumDum Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.12 06:44:00 - [15] Originally by: Depp Knight Everything you have said has been said before. No more threads are needed. That's a little silly don't you think? Example... Customer interaction with product manufacturer: Customer: X is broken on my product Manufacturer: <silence> Customer: X is also broken on my product. Manufacturer: <silence> Customer: X is broken on my product Manufacturer: YOU ALREADY TOLD US, STFU Customer: Okay, thank you sir for responding to my concerns about your product. How to pwn
Thoric Frosthammer The Syndicate Inc INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.12 06:56:00 - [16] Agree with you on most things there. Carrier jumping i have to say meh. Investing in the pos chain to do carrier logistics, plus the ship, plus the fuel is expensive, and take a fair amount of work to maintain. It SHOULD make you immune to lamer gankers and gate camps. It won't make you immune to a smart opponent who can take out your logistics poses and harass your carriers. To be honest, there is nothing in the game more boring than freighter ops. They made the game almost not worth playing, if they were the price for being able to live in 0.0.
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence	Posted - 2007.03.12 07:10:00 - [17] Edited by: Splagada on 12/03/2007 07:07:48 ive been using cap ships to refuel our pos'es quite often as it's damn convenient however it allows a small group to extend over LARGE areas, with the sick range those can have in my opinion a group of 1000 couldnt hold an entire region sov without those. because even if complete eve addicts, its impossible to fuel weekly many many systems. well it is; but horribly boring and the loss would be huge with a carrier or dread+ a cyno alt or 3, it's easy eh. without cap ship refueling you'll see large alliances space reduce quite a lot; by itself a 750 ppl alliance holding 3 regions is just... not feasible with standard haulers ------ Relaxed corp recruiting
Siri Blue Gallente Duvolle Laboratories Blue Division	Posted - 2007.03.12 07:20:00 - [18] Siri Blue points to the courier missions which have been broken ever since Dragon Code
SumDum Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.12 08:28:00 - [19] Edited by: SumDum on 12/03/2007 08:25:48 self snipped :) these aren't the droids you are looking for How to pwn
Heroldyn	Posted - 2007.03.12 08:43:00 - [20] biggest inbalance: miners <> pve

Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2007.03.12 09:09:00 - [21] Sadly enough, I can echo OPs concerns. While some of these things don't touch me directly, they are shaping the game I'm playing and I don't like what's happening. UI: For the information and option overload that is EVE, the UI should be lot better. Speedy McBattleships: Simply unreasonable. While it is fair that people who can spend more ISK on their ships get an advantage, some combinations should have never happened. Carriers for Freighters: I know it's a smart move on players' side, but this is almost an exploit, e.g. use of a game mechanic in a way it was not intended as is harmful for the game. If an alliance doesn't have enough manpower too keep their bazillion POS online they should rethink their territory claiming habits. Seriously! Get in touch with reality! You're not using 90% of the space you "claim". Big toys: Okay. I very clearly remember a dev suggesting that a Titan should be killed by not allowing it to warp out by bumping it with dreads. What sort of a lame design is that? I do hope the good man was kidding. Originally by: Diana Marc Notice that BoB is agreeing with RA's concern. That's like Elrond and Sauron agreeing to reduce carbon emissions.
Midiana Nexus Legion NxT LeveL	Posted - 2007.03.12 09:29:00 - [22] I have one !!! The time it takes is too short to be able to dock safely back up when under fire. For example, we engage agony empire in x-70 and they all dock up and hide for 5 weeks. Seriously it's not on. Oh and nano battleships. Serious noobage.
Sovy Kurosei Amarr Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.12 09:47:00 - [23] I have to agree with a lot of Rells concerns with the state of the game as it is. I don't think many of the issues that Rells brought up will be fixed for a variety of reasons. Corp Interface, for example, won't be changed much because so much is relied on the system as it is. It will be unlikely that the UI will be changed and made more customizable either besides the necessary bug fixes because players will fear that customizability will force players to install a plethora of mods to remain competitive in Eve like you do in WoW, aka too political. CCP has put up devblogs to show the players that they intend to fix the Amarr and nanoship problem but not how specifically. The Titan superweapon might be nerfed but the capital ship HP boost is here to stay since reverting it would be predictably too political. Tech two BPOs are marginally addressed by invention, they really should be taken out of the game one way or another. Plus there is always the "We have to go deep into the guts of the code that it would take too many resources to fix for it to be worthwhile" line that CCP puts out for some issues like AI. Wether that is true or not I do not know. ___________________ Feel free to contact me in-game or join my public channel THERI-Public.
Christina Bamar Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.03.12 09:54:00 - [24] Just imagine... being able to put your overview on the LEFT side But yeah, agreed, all changes are needed, except I tend to disagree on the carrier one. Logistics are boring enough as it is, no need to make it worse.
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.12 11:10:00 - [25] Must agree with the OP and must also freely admit I am an Eve addict. The comments related to the corp interface are something that has bugged me for a long time: what at times appears to be blatant support of grief play. But some others things are blatantly anti-grief. We must give CCP the benifit of the doubt that they wish to balance the two kinds of play. However, as the OP states, when the balance is too much to the grief side, then it makes it a PITA to get things done. No corp in thier right mind would have a policy that access to use something also requires the access to manage something. If we took the POS/Factory Manager/Config Starbase approach to CCP's property, then I should have a full blown SQL admin account, to the Eve DB, for my $15 a month. I don't, why is that? Because it is stupid. -AS
Frogzuk Dragonian Freelancers Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.12 11:31:00 - [26] Edited by: Frogzuk on 12/03/2007 11:31:33 Nice op rell and have to agree with everything here, except for the carrier jumping supplies to pos.... with pos wars this is prolly the best way to maintain them and until something is done regarding pos wars this must remain as it is.... an industrial type jump ship would be better imho pretty much sums up the issues i have with eve atm, theres one more to add.... auditing ability with ship hangers at pos !! froggy
Lord XSiV Amarr The Nine Gates	Posted - 2007.03.12 11:43:00 - [27] Ok, the only one I would side with you on is the Amarr ship gimppage but tha tis only because the majority of my 'fun' to play with alts are Amarr. Plus I got a lot of love for anything that subjugates something else legitimately.... The rest is useless dribble however. Titam doomsday now just became a problem because bob has the only skilled pilots who know how to use them. The other alliances aren't so swift and Enslaver has moved on to bigger and better things. When that crybaby cyvok had his titan, he didn't even know how to use it properly so back then it wasn't an issue. Now it suddnedly is just because bob knows how to use it. Big surprise though - everytime bob gets a foot up either from superior strategy or tactics, the forum whinage goes through the roof. Quite pathetic and it is good to see that CCP sees through the garbage. Corp interface is there to support the other Eve professions. If you don't like it, tough. Use your brains (oops too tough for you?) to get aorund it. Those of use with IQs larger than a highway speedlimit have it figured out. BS speeds, well adapt. Just because it put you out of business doesn't mean it is bad for the game. Anyhow, some thoughtful insight. I would much rather them put the effort into optimizing the code so we can get 50k people into a system if needed. I think all goons should have an equal opportunity to experience getting podded back home repeatedly when swarming real pilots in t1 frigates.
Thews Mortaza Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.03.12 13:16:00 - [28] Edited by: Thews Mortaza on 12/03/2007 13:17:44 EDIT (Because I somehow lost a whole sentence somewhere) Speaking only of the "need for speed(-nerfing)", I don't quite "get" the nano-phoon pilots when they complain about any sort of potential nerfing to their "new" pets. In case they can't remember (I'm talking somewhat IIRCly here) 'phoons have always had a speed advantage over the other BS'es, and power to them for it - we could at least all live with it then because that was their "thing", just like how the Domi is the BS for drones, and people love the Raven for PvE. It was balanced then. Having things pulled back to when they had the sole advantage in this realm would make more sense to me because we'd have balance again - which I'd have thought was more important for the game. I don't see how the current nano-BS'es are conducive to good PvP gaming in EVE when most pilots, whom are smart, will choose not to engage one when they see it because they already know there isn't any point to it - other than getting to collect their insurance when they're done trying. And quite frankly, if you can afford a set of diet/regular Snake implants, virtually on a whim, then I'm afraid I don't have any sympathy for you when you're at risk of losing one way to use them. Big deal. (Guess what CCP and pro-nano whiners, that precious investment is still in the head when the nano-nerfing is done ... New excuse please!) Of course, I can understand the new nano-Domi pilots getting upset, but then I guess no-one likes being told they're an unfortunate accident ... (Even if it is true. Burn) (Sig) Your momma so fat ... when I tried to scoop her to my cargo hold, she don't fit !
Ask Unbeatable Gallente HighTech Marines Ltd. FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.12 13:19:00 - [29] The single worst imbalance in Eve is me.
Mack Deluxe PsyCorp Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.12 13:24:00 - [30] I agree with the OP completely. Originally by: Victor Valka Carriers for Freighters: I know it's a smart move on players' side, but this is almost an exploit, e.g. use of a game mechanic in a way it was not intended as is harmful for the game. If an alliance doesn't have enough manpower too keep their bazillion POS online they should rethink their territory claiming habits. Seriously! Get in touch with reality! You're not using 90% of the space you "claim". I also agree completely with this. I've done... Questionable things.



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