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Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
0
   |
Posted - 2016.08.10 15:32:36 -
[1] - Quote
So, I've once again forgotten to resume training after jumping back into my implant clone. Yes, I know... I'm a baddie.
Yet.. bad or not, that's still about 8 hours of training that I now don't have :(
Remind me again why we must manually pause and start our training before jumping? Why it isn't automated? |
Memphis Baas
1895
|
Posted - 2016.08.10 15:45:05 -
[2] - Quote
It's because of a limitation of the game code. Your training speed (points/minute) isn't calculated every second; it's only calculated whenever there's a major change, such as:
- you train a new skill (new skill may use different attributes than old skill)
- you die and lose the implants
- you plug in new implants
- you switch from a clone (with implants) to another clone (without implants).
So they make you stop training and re-start training whenever you do something that can potentially change your attribute values, because the attributes determine how many points you're going to get per hour. And the server records that number down only when you tell it "I want to train a skill now."
On the plus side, petition CCP. They gave reimbursement skill points to people who forgot to train their skills, for whatever reason, and you qualify.
|
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2016.08.10 15:51:30 -
[3] - Quote
Thank you very much for the suggestion about the petition, I will definitely do that.
I certainly understand that it is a game code limitation, but to me it seems that the "stop and start" could be automated.
Psudocode:
if training{
stop training
jump to clone
start training
}
if not training {
jump to clone
}
The start and stop training are implemented, it's just that we're pressing the button to send the command to the servers. Having the jump button send 3 commands (as it were) rather than 1 does not seem to be a major feature request. |
Sitting Bull Lakota
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
115
|
Posted - 2016.08.11 00:02:01 -
[4] - Quote
I still remember the weeks of Dyonisian bliss when CCP changed the code to allow us to plug in implants without having to on/off the skillqueue.
I think you underestimate just how "legacy" the legacy code really is. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3505
|
Posted - 2016.08.11 00:07:38 -
[5] - Quote
Get CCP to remove attributes so everyone trains at a flat rate. That will allow them to fix the pausing skill queue on clone jump problem. (And a bunch of other problems also) |
Lex Gabinia
Res Repetundae
109
|
Posted - 2016.08.11 08:01:36 -
[6] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Get CCP to remove attributes so everyone trains at a flat rate. That will allow them to fix the pausing skill queue on clone jump problem. (And a bunch of other problems also)
This would really disadvantage those who make the effort to remap for specific long-term skill plans. It also takes yet more variety out of the game.
What other problems are you suggesting such a change would fix?
To the OP, I leave my training queue window open until I finish the jump. It works as a reminder to start up the training again. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
947
|
Posted - 2016.08.11 12:24:11 -
[7] - Quote
Since players have been asking for years to remove the pause requirements yet we still have to do it, and given that by your own admission this is not the first time you have had this problem may I suggest you create a check list and tape it to your monitor, or perhaps use one of the available apps for your smart phone. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3510
|
Posted - 2016.08.11 13:02:39 -
[8] - Quote
Lex Gabinia wrote:
This would really disadvantage those who make the effort to remap for specific long-term skill plans. It also takes yet more variety out of the game.
What other problems are you suggesting such a change would fix?
To the OP, I leave my training queue window open until I finish the jump. It works as a reminder to start up the training again.
That's a minor consequence assuming they set the SP gain to the slower averaged rate, not the max remap rate. And remapping mainly benefits the veterans who are training alts, or cap pilots, it doesn't actually benefit the true newer player who has to keep a balanced remap because they have to train a wide variety of skills initially. So it's not really a 'disadvantage' worth noting.
The main problem with attributes is that learning implants make it more advantageous to not play the game than to play the game. All the old problems of learning skills also are perfectly applicable to learning implants. CCP themselves have acknowledged these problems, but were wanting to do a deeper look into market impact on the LP stores. Personally I think it's just something we should bite the bullet and accept it will impact the markets to some degree on, but I can understand their wanting to look into it. |
Lex Gabinia
Res Repetundae
110
|
Posted - 2016.08.11 15:55:51 -
[9] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Lex Gabinia wrote:
This would really disadvantage those who make the effort to remap for specific long-term skill plans. It also takes yet more variety out of the game.
What other problems are you suggesting such a change would fix?
To the OP, I leave my training queue window open until I finish the jump. It works as a reminder to start up the training again.
That's a minor consequence assuming they set the SP gain to the slower averaged rate, not the max remap rate. And remapping mainly benefits the veterans who are training alts, or cap pilots, it doesn't actually benefit the true newer player who has to keep a balanced remap because they have to train a wide variety of skills initially. So it's not really a 'disadvantage' worth noting. The main problem with attributes is that learning implants make it more advantageous to not play the game than to play the game. All the old problems of learning skills also are perfectly applicable to learning implants. CCP themselves have acknowledged these problems, but were wanting to do a deeper look into market impact on the LP stores. Personally I think it's just something we should bite the bullet and accept it will impact the markets to some degree on, but I can understand their wanting to look into it.
I still think that it provides important options and customization. The minor inconvenience of stopping and starting training does not, in my opinion, outweigh the benefits. I'm not sure why it has to benefit new players to be kept in the game and it is certainly a disadvantage to players as you even pointed out a few types.
I don't follow your correlation between implants and not playing the game. Not saying you can't make me but I'm not getting it as you described it here.
Anyway, I see it as yet another simplification/dumbing down of the game that seems to be the trend. Why remove options that exist and have worked for 13 years and provide choices and replace them with everybody having no options and all being the same? |
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden
Workers Trade Federation
818
|
Posted - 2016.08.12 08:48:32 -
[10] - Quote
Lex Gabinia wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Get CCP to remove attributes so everyone trains at a flat rate. That will allow them to fix the pausing skill queue on clone jump problem. (And a bunch of other problems also) This would really disadvantage those who make the effort to remap for specific long-term skill plans. It also takes yet more variety out of the game. What other problems are you suggesting such a change would fix? To the OP, I leave my training queue window open until I finish the jump. It works as a reminder to start up the training again.
CCP has already stated that attributes will be removed once they got an idea on how to do it. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3512
|
Posted - 2016.08.12 12:02:06 -
[11] - Quote
Lex Gabinia wrote:
I don't follow your correlation between implants and not playing the game. Not saying you can't make me but I'm not getting it as you described it here.
If I play the game and get podded (If you play in null it's pretty much a certainty if you lose a fight), then you get sub optimal training as a result. Or you could chose to remain docked and continue to get optimal training.
This means that with regards to training the optimal decision is actually to remain docked and to not play the game.
Clone jumping simply reduces the sub optimal cost to a single day, rather than several hundred million isk if you are using decent learning implants. So isn't a viable 'replacement' method. It just reduces the sting.
As for why remove options? Because they are poor options that encourage not playing, and only reward veterans who have alts. Who are exactly the people who don't need any further advantage since they already have enough advantages in other ways.
Options are only good if they are actually good & meaningful choices. Not if they are the illusion of choice but in reality aren't, or encourage poor game play (or in this case no game play at all). The option also hasn't 'worked' for 13 years, it's been a bad option the entire time, and never worked well (And has been iterated on repeatedly to try and make it work better, none of the iterations succeeding). It's just a legacy of the fact that at it's core EVE is more a traditional MMO than we like to exist, and MMO's & RPG's 'have to have stats' in peoples heads, despite the fact they are irrelevant for EVE's design. |
Solecist Project
32029
|
Posted - 2016.08.12 12:40:25 -
[12] - Quote
If it happened "once again" ...
... why didn't you learn not to make the same mistake again?
"That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
|
HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
1817
|
Posted - 2016.08.12 12:40:53 -
[13] - Quote
Old Pervert wrote:Thank you very much for the suggestion about the petition, I will definitely do that.
You are not paying for skillpoints, you are paying for the play time.
1 PLEX = 1.1B ISK / 30 days
8 hours = 12M ISK
All you have lost is 12M ISK game time.
I hope, CCP will not waste the time for 12M ISK reimburst.
It takes days up to weeks to reimburst really worth stuff, cause of a bug or a server crash.
|
Lex Gabinia
Res Repetundae
119
|
Posted - 2016.08.12 17:30:50 -
[14] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Lex Gabinia wrote:
I don't follow your correlation between implants and not playing the game. Not saying you can't make me but I'm not getting it as you described it here.
If you play the game and get podded (If you play in null it's pretty much a certainty if you lose a fight), then you get sub optimal training as a result. Or you could chose to remain docked and continue to get optimal training. This means that with regards to training the optimal decision is actually to remain docked and to not play the game. Clone jumping simply reduces the sub optimal cost to a single day, rather than several hundred million isk if you are using decent learning implants. So isn't a viable 'replacement' method. It just reduces the sting. As for why remove options? Because they are poor options that encourage not playing, and only reward veterans who have alts. Who are exactly the people who don't need any further advantage since they already have enough advantages in other ways. Options are only good if they are actually good & meaningful choices. Not if they are the illusion of choice but in reality aren't, or encourage poor game play (or in this case no game play at all). The option also hasn't 'worked' for 13 years, it's been a bad option the entire time, and never worked well (And has been iterated on repeatedly to try and make it work better, none of the iterations succeeding). It's just a legacy of the fact that at it's core EVE is more a traditional MMO than we like to exist, and MMO's & RPG's 'have to have stats' in peoples heads, despite the fact they are irrelevant for EVE's design.
Well, I guess this just confirms the trend of simplification and catering to game play without consequences.
Attributes were very important when I set up my first character, along with which empire and faction. These choices provided depth and required long term thinking and planning. Now we have four distinct empires with four distinct backgrounds, battle doctrines, trade doctrines, etc. yet we all start off with the same stats and skills. I would say these choices were meaningful. If I want to play a certain play style then I can get their quicker because I committed to certain attributes. It is not that I can't be other things but it might take just a bit longer. That is all about choices and consequences.
I thought you were referring to implant loss but I wanted to be certain. Implants are not a requirement nor is training skills at optimum levels. Again - choices and consequences.
I guess it comes down to a few key questions:
Why do we all have to be the same and equal?
Why should we get every advantage with no drawbacks?
Why can't someone be rewarded for taking a risk?
Why can't someone be punished for not taking a risk?
Why do we have to get instant gratification?
These things were not true when I started EVE. This is a persistent online universe/community/simulation/virtual world that has been populated for 13 years. It makes no sense that new arrivals should have the same abilities as older inhabitants. It also makes perfect sense that older inhabitants will have advantages over new arrivals.
You say *EVE is more a traditional MMO than we like to exist." To which I say a simplified, arcade style, homogenous game brings more of a traditional single player game to EVE than I suspect many of us others would like to exist. |
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2016.08.12 17:49:46 -
[15] - Quote
HandelsPharmi wrote:Old Pervert wrote:Thank you very much for the suggestion about the petition, I will definitely do that.
You are not paying for skillpoints, you are paying for the play time. 1 PLEX = 1.1B ISK / 30 days 8 hours = 12M ISK All you have lost is 12M ISK game time. I hope, CCP will not waste the time for 12M ISK reimburst. It takes days up to weeks to reimburst really worth stuff, cause of a bug or a server crash.
One could argue that skill points are a part of subscribed time; for example, you do not accrue skill points while you are unsubbed. The game time may only be worth 12M ISK, but that doesn't mean my enjoyment is worth 12M ISK. Keeping a happy playerbase means keeping a bigger playerbase.
Regardless, the reimbursement was very quick (less than 36 hours to resolution, I think even less than 24 but do not remember). |
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